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di Resta-Alonso incident


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Poll: Should Alonso have been penalized for this incident? (166 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Alonso have been penalized for this incident?

  1. Yes (77 votes [46.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.67%

  2. No (68 votes [41.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.21%

  3. I'm not sure (20 votes [12.12%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.12%

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#51 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:18

Guess so, otherwise the thread wouldn't exist.


Yeah, keep digging harder :rolleyes:

If you´re being honest, and you really are visually handicapped, use common sense for a second: Why did di Resta leave the track if he wasn´t pushed wide by Alonso? Was he unable to keep it on the black stuff in a straight without anyone alongside? Really?





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#52 olliek88

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:22

Show it, then.


The photos in the OP showing Di Resta alongside Alonso before being eased off track.

Seriously, how can you dispute that Di Resta wasn't alongside him and wasn't forced off track. :drunk:

#53 as65p

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:28

Yeah, keep digging harder :rolleyes:

If you´re being honest, and you really are visually handicapped, use common sense for a second: Why did di Resta leave the track if he wasn´t pushed wide by Alonso? Was he unable to keep it on the black stuff in a straight without anyone alongside? Really?


Because he still was close to Alonso, about frontwing to rear wheel approximately, and refused to lift. Good racers stuff I'd say, but no reason to blame anyone, as in fact they didn't as far as I'm aware.

As for visually handicapped, well, I'm not the one failing to make out the positions of the cars in the OP's pics.

#54 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:35

Because he still was close to Alonso, about frontwing to rear wheel approximately, and refused to lift.


Again, that´s not only in conflict with the OP pictures, also in conflict with the last two pics showing di Resta getting a faster exit and a position well better than that you claim waaaay earlier in the straight. Tell me how on Earth Alonso not only countered di Resta´s better initial momentum, also managed to eventually get travelling faster and pull away from another F1 car in... what, 150 meters?

Anyway, forget about it, you won´t see anything you chose not to see until now. Funny how, even sticking to your funny vision of the incident, it SHOULD have been a penalty:

http://www.f1fanatic...ensive-driving/

Whiting goes on to define the term “significant portion”, stating that this applies if the car attempting to pass gets any part of its front wing alongside the rear wheels of the car in front.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 10 September 2012 - 21:38.


#55 hammibal

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:38

Because he still was close to Alonso, about frontwing to rear wheel approximately, and refused to lift. Good racers stuff I'd say, but no reason to blame anyone, as in fact they didn't as far as I'm aware.

As for visually handicapped, well, I'm not the one failing to make out the positions of the cars in the OP's pics.

Di Resta had an overlap and Alonso forced him off the track, did this deserve a penalty, maybe not, to argue otherwise is laughable

#56 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:39

There are differences between this incident and the Alonso Vettel one. Not least of these is the more 'relaxed' view taken by stewards in the early stages of any race but the biggy is that DiResta was alongside coming immediately out of the chicane, while in the later incident the cars are much further around before Alonso even attempts to overtake.

There really isn't that much clear footage to see what happened so it's impossible to reasonably attribute blame IMO. For UK viewers iPlayer has race highlights with the start from here and replays from here. It looks a lot like DiResta gets scrappy all by himself.

#57 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:43

The photos in the OP showing Di Resta alongside Alonso before being eased off track.

Seriously, how can you dispute that Di Resta wasn't alongside him and wasn't forced off track. :drunk:

Those long lens shots are terrible for judging distance and it's impossible to see, from the OP, that they were alongside each other.

Happy to be shown a better view - DiResta onboard would really be helpful of course but IIRC wasn't shown.

#58 Mila

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:49

First lap right after the start
Charlie doesn't do penalties in that situation


wasn't RG penalized at Spa?

and how does RG-on-LH differ from FA-on-PdR? that is, if we are to say that drivers should be penalized for their actions as opposed to the results of their actions?

Edited by Mila, 10 September 2012 - 21:51.


#59 as65p

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:56

There are differences between this incident and the Alonso Vettel one. Not least of these is the more 'relaxed' view taken by stewards in the early stages of any race but the biggy is that DiResta was alongside coming immediately out of the chicane, while in the later incident the cars are much further around before Alonso even attempts to overtake.

There really isn't that much clear footage to see what happened so it's impossible to reasonably attribute blame IMO. For UK viewers iPlayer has race highlights with the start from here and replays from here. It looks a lot like DiResta gets scrappy all by himself.


:up:

This sequence isn't any better quality, unfortunately, but it shows much better what happened. Coming out of the previous corner, Di Resta was alongside Alonso, given room but on a weird line, evident by Alonso being very much on the normal line like all the cars in front. Consequently, on his weird line, Di Resta appears to lose ground in each of the pics, and at the point he finally takes to the grass he is no longer alongside.

Posted Image

Complete non-issue, as the stewards, Force India, and Di Resta himself seem to think to, as we didn't hear any sort of protest form any of them.

And no, I won't scribble any arrows onto the pic, you either see it or you don't. :)

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#60 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:56

and how does RG's flub differ from FA's tuffing-off PdR?


First I thought "that´s rubbish". Then I thought: "wait a second, put a left hairpin 70 meters down the road and there you have it".

that is, if we are to say that drivers should be penalized for their actions as opposed to the results of their actions?


That´s a hard call. Di Resta could have ended spearing right after losing the car and taking people away, true... But I don´t complain that consequences are taken into account, it´s maybe unfair but it´s just automatic, can´t stop it. Me myself thinks Romain´s ban was OK, yet would be furious if Alonso got a ban for this. Don´t know if it´s fair but I do take consequences into account.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 10 September 2012 - 22:01.


#61 hammibal

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:56

wasn't RG penalized at Spa?

and how does RG-on-LH differ from FA-on-PdR? that is, if we are to say that drivers should be penalized for their actions as opposed to the results of their actions?

Are you being serious? :rolleyes:

#62 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:01

:up:

This sequence isn't any better quality, unfortunately, but it shows much better what happened. Coming out of the previous corner, Di Resta was alongside Alonso, given room but on a weird line, evident by Alonso being very much on the normal line like all the cars in front. Consequently, on his weird line, Di Resta appears to lose ground in each of the pics, and at the point he finally takes to the grass he is no longer alongside.


Yeah, he´s losing ground to another car while both of them just drive straight "cos he´s in a weird line" -whatever that is on a straight-. That all despite having had a better exit from turn 2, like 50 meters behind them. Amazing. :rolleyes:

And yes, these pictures show so much better that happened!! :smoking:

#63 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:05

I think the moving pictures are better if you can watch them, Skinnyguy, but still inconclusive.

The big problem with seeing the incident in stills really is the lack of MS Paint lines and arrows which as65p was too lazy to put in for us :cry:

#64 as65p

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:09

Yeah, he´s losing ground to another car while both of them just drive straight "cos he´s in a weird line" -whatever that is on a straight-. That all despite having had a better exit from turn 2, like 50 meters behind them. Amazing. :rolleyes:

And yes, these pictures show so much better that happened!! :smoking:


Sarcasm isn't for everyone, you know. But practice can help, so carry on. :wave:

#65 as65p

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:10

I think the moving pictures are better if you can watch them, Skinnyguy, but still inconclusive.

The big problem with seeing the incident in stills really is the lack of MS Paint lines and arrows which as65p was too lazy to put in for us :cry:


Guilty as charged. :stoned:

#66 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:12

I think the moving pictures are better if you can watch them, Skinnyguy, but still inconclusive.


I guess until a di Resta/Alonso onboard pops up we´ll keep going at it. If I must judge on the pics we´ve seen, I don´t believe for a second that Alonso pulled away 25% of a car´s lenght in a 50-70 meters of drag race after exiting turn 2 in a slower way, as pics in the bottom of page 1 show.

The big problem with seeing the incident in stills really is the lack of MS Paint lines and arrows which as65p was too lazy to put in for us :cry:


Naaaah, arrows are usually mega-helpful, but we´ll figure it out anyway :lol:

#67 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:18

"This sequence isn't any better quality, unfortunately, but it shows much better what happened."

Sarcasm isn't for everyone, you know. But practice can help, so carry on.


If the "" bit was sarcastic, then you are really poor at written sarcasm I must say.

Anyway, if it WAS sarcasm, then you´re actually saying your pictures DON´T show better what happened. Is it sarcasm, or not? :smoking:

#68 as65p

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:19

I guess until a di Resta/Alonso onboard pops up we´ll keep going at it. If I must judge on the pics we´ve seen, I don´t believe for a second that Alonso pulled away 25% of a car´s lenght in a 50-70 meters of drag race after exiting turn 2 in a slower way, as pics in the bottom of page 1 show.


Well, at least we can agree that quality onboards, especially of Di Resta, would be very helpful.

#69 as65p

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:24

If the "" bit was sarcastic, then you are really poor at written sarcasm I must say.


No it wasn't, what made you thinks so? :confused: Pic quality still crap but as the pics are in closer time sequence, one can see the development of events better. Maybe I didn't express that good enough for you, but anyway I think it's sort of self-evident.


#70 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:26

Well, at least we can agree that quality onboards, especially of Di Resta, would be very helpful.


While that happens, might just remind you one thing, looks like you missed it:

First, you said according to the pictures you thought that di Resta and Alonso were in "front wing alongside rear wheels" situation. That´s in post 53.

Then I did stick this link:

http://www.f1fanatic...ensive-driving/

Whiting goes on to define the term “significant portion”, stating that this applies if the car attempting to pass gets any part of its front wing alongside the rear wheels of the car in front.

Tell me, why are we arguing about what we see? No matter if things were as I saw them or as you saw them, it still warrants a penalty.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 10 September 2012 - 22:29.


#71 as65p

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:43

While that happens, might just remind you one thing, looks like you missed it:

First, you said according to the pictures you thought that di Resta and Alonso were in "front wing alongside rear wheels" situation.

Then I did stick this link:

http://www.f1fanatic...ensive-driving/

Whiting goes on to define the term “significant portion”, stating that this applies if the car attempting to pass gets any part of its front wing alongside the rear wheels of the car in front.

Tell me, why are we arguing about what we see? No matter if things were as I saw them or as you saw them, it still warrants a penalty.


Well from my POV I don't argue if it warrants a penalty, I just argue if Alonso did anything sinister or out of the ordinary to Di Resta, and so far I don't see that. Normal first lap racing, as far as I can tell. Plus despite that presumably being the intention of the OP, not comparable to Vettel/Alonso later in the race. Maybe we can't yet conclusively decide to an inch whose front wing was where in relation to whose rear wheels, but it's clear that we have one case (FA/PDR) of a driver losing ground and going on to the gras and another one (FA/SV) of one driver gaining massively while doing so. That alone makes the two incidents incomparable IMO.

And for the record, earlier in the other thread I declared to be undecided if Vettel deserved his penalty.

On the penalty itself, I'm undecided. Just glad it didn't have any true effect, due to Alonso getting by anyway and Vettel retiring.



#72 kissTheApex

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:54

The footage provided isn't clear enough to decide.

An enlarged view of pics #3 and #4, in which it seems Alonso did not let Di Resta enough space, appears to show that Di Resta's front wheels were behind Alonso's rear wheels.

The rule clarification:
"For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'."

It's impossible to know from that footage whether or not Di Resta's front wing reached said point of Alonso's car.

This...

#73 P123

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 23:06

The photos in the OP showing Di Resta alongside Alonso before being eased off track.

Seriously, how can you dispute that Di Resta wasn't alongside him and wasn't forced off track. :drunk:


Replays of the start show that di Resta got a better drive out of the chicane than Alonso. The first photo shows him in the process of moving partially alongside Alonso. Had di Resta fallen behind Alonso as suggested elsewhere in this topic then he would not have had any reason to be driving off track.

#74 as65p

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 23:20

Replays of the start show that di Resta got a better drive out of the chicane than Alonso. The first photo shows him in the process of moving partially alongside Alonso. Had di Resta fallen behind Alonso as suggested elsewhere in this topic then he would not have had any reason to be driving off track.


Conversely, had Di Resta continued to make as much ground on Alonso as initially when exciting the first chicane, he would have been in front long before the point where he took to the gras. It appears somehow beween exciting the chicane and the point in question he lost momentum (evidently not because of any undue crowding from Alonso, as they both have all the track spave in the world when coming into view on the second cam). Or maybe Alonso did get much better traction at some point in between. In any case. Di Resta didn't advance over Alonso at a constant rate all through this, instead he initially gained out of the 1st chicane but then dropped behind all the time during what the 2nd cam shows.

#75 BigCHrome

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:20

First lap right after the start
Charlie doesn't do penalties in that situation
also no sane steward will penalize a Ferrari in Monza for such a trivial thing


Excuse me for wanting impartial stewards at an F1 race.

Yes, it was the first lap, but it wasn't the first corner. All the cars were already settled on the racing line so it definitely deserved a penalty - if Vettel's move got one.

#76 Boxerevo

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:17

How people voted yes or no :confused: .

For now i voted "not sure".

#77 pingu666

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:45

the question is do we want good driving standards and also consistant stewarding, and if stuff like this doesnt seem to be investigated (atleast), thats not good


#78 bourbon

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:15

Investigate all simlilar incidents and come up with a decision based on the specifics. Consistent stewarding is the key. In light of that, this incident should have been investigated.

So it looks like Alonso should have been penalized, but it's not my job to judge - that was up to the stewards and in my opinion, they didn't do their job.

Edited by bourbon, 11 September 2012 - 05:18.


#79 abc

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:21

Unbelievable spin masters in support of Alonso here.

I still see Resta alongside Alonso in all pictures posted and slightly gaining on him from T1, cant understand anyone claiming otherwise.
Resta and Alonso are both on straight part, Resta is pointing his car straight already in last but one as65p picture, while Alonsos car seems to go to left still.
Resta leaving the track, kicking dust and coming back some 10 cars length behind Alonso.
But lets not take one and only plausible explanation, instead lets make some really bizzare conclusions, thats what fans should always do, no?


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#80 Cesc

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:35

This sounds to me like some sour grapes from Vettel fans. As far as I know, the rule does not apply for the first lap or start sequence. At least this is what comentators said. Anyway, comparing this manouvre to Grosejan's one is really taking the thing to the extreme.

#81 Buttoneer

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:50

Unbelievable spin masters in support of Alonso here.

I still see Resta alongside Alonso in all pictures posted and slightly gaining on him from T1, cant understand anyone claiming otherwise.
Resta and Alonso are both on straight part, Resta is pointing his car straight already in last but one as65p picture, while Alonsos car seems to go to left still.
Resta leaving the track, kicking dust and coming back some 10 cars length behind Alonso.
But lets not take one and only plausible explanation, instead lets make some really bizzare conclusions, thats what fans should always do, no?

Foreshortening caused by long lenses. There are no conclusive images of this incident at all, beyond the exit from the chicane.

#82 encircled

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:58

I'm trying to look for different images, but unfortunately could not find any so far. This is the best that I have seen.

#83 encircled

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:04

This sounds to me like some sour grapes from Vettel fans. As far as I know, the rule does not apply for the first lap or start sequence. At least this is what comentators said. Anyway, comparing this manouvre to Grosejan's one is really taking the thing to the extreme.

Which begs the question. When does a "start" sequence end? Somebody has said it is after turn 1, others have said it is after the first lap. I am trying to look for a written rule regarding this but could not find any. If it is after the first lap, then does it mean that drivers are allowed to aggressively defend more and is allowed to crowd other drivers for position for the entire lap? Because if it is, then we have a loophole that allows drivers to defend aggressively, even if it is just for a single lap of the race whereas if it is after turn 1, then this loophole is closed, at least after they cleared turn 1.

Edited by encircled, 11 September 2012 - 08:04.


#84 as65p

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:31

Which begs the question. When does a "start" sequence end? Somebody has said it is after turn 1, others have said it is after the first lap. I am trying to look for a written rule regarding this but could not find any. If it is after the first lap, then does it mean that drivers are allowed to aggressively defend more and is allowed to crowd other drivers for position for the entire lap? Because if it is, then we have a loophole that allows drivers to defend aggressively, even if it is just for a single lap of the race whereas if it is after turn 1, then this loophole is closed, at least after they cleared turn 1.


You can bet in the rare cases FIA and stewards are applying common sense, there will be calls to put a stop on it when either theri preferred driver get's the wrong end of the stick or when their disliked drivers apparently get away with stuff.

As of now, the start phase is treated differently, simply because it IS different from other phases of the race by design. Never again in a race will so many cars get bunched up as much as during the first few corners, this naturally leading to more close encounters between the drivers. If the FIA would come down on every marginal encounter during the first lap, we would see maybe 2 to 4 drivers getting a drive-through each race from incidents on the first lap. That's not to say drivers can do as they please, as evident for the PM and RG penalties, but things are generally handled a bit more lenient in the first lap, especially in cases nothing ultimately happened.

As to the actual case, I still believe Di Resta already losing ground to Alonso already before he was on the gras makes this pretty much a non-issue, and completely different to Vettel / Alonso later in the race, where Alonso had a massive speed advantage at the point Vettel cut him off. Or IOW, I don't see how Di Resta would have got by Alonso even if there was 3 metres more of tarmac to his left, he just don't has the speed to drive by anymore.

#85 aditya-now

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:13

First lap right after the start
Charlie doesn't do penalties in that situation
also no sane steward will penalize a Ferrari in Monza for such a trivial thing


This


#86 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:05

This sounds to me like some sour grapes from Vettel fans. As far as I know, the rule does not apply for the first lap or start sequence.


Rubbish, pushing people off in a damn straight is never acceptable.

The "it´s the start" thing is stupid. If anything, drivers should be more careful there. There´s no rule to make start sequence different from a face to face scrap either as some suggest.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 11 September 2012 - 11:07.


#87 Ali_G

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:54

Penalties should have been given in all cases.

This style of pushing people off especially at the exits of corners only really materialised in racing since the 1980s or so. It's something you don't see in a lot of series btw. You don't see it in Indycar for instance.

#88 SpaMaster

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 19:46

You can bet in the rare cases FIA and stewards are applying common sense, there will be calls to put a stop on it when either theri preferred driver get's the wrong end of the stick or when their disliked drivers apparently get away with stuff.

As of now, the start phase is treated differently, simply because it IS different from other phases of the race by design. Never again in a race will so many cars get bunched up as much as during the first few corners, this naturally leading to more close encounters between the drivers. If the FIA would come down on every marginal encounter during the first lap, we would see maybe 2 to 4 drivers getting a drive-through each race from incidents on the first lap. That's not to say drivers can do as they please, as evident for the PM and RG penalties, but things are generally handled a bit more lenient in the first lap, especially in cases nothing ultimately happened.

As to the actual case, I still believe Di Resta already losing ground to Alonso already before he was on the gras makes this pretty much a non-issue, and completely different to Vettel / Alonso later in the race, where Alonso had a massive speed advantage at the point Vettel cut him off. Or IOW, I don't see how Di Resta would have got by Alonso even if there was 3 metres more of tarmac to his left, he just don't has the speed to drive by anymore.

Starts are treated differently only to the extent warranted. If it is two cars fighting with each other in the first lap with no scope whatsoever for other cars to interfere, normal racing rules would still apply. I remember a year where Vettel got overtaken at the backstraight in Turkey in first lap. You cannot be saying 'oh, that's first lap' Vettel can triple move, weave between sky and earth just because it is first lap. Similarly, for the case in discussion, I don't see any need for special start circumstances to be considered. It was just two cars well clear of any involvement from other cars. Any start-related scenario is pretty much over after the chicane in this scenario. Start cannot be an excuse here.

#89 bl-f1

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 05:32

Does charlie get a feed from the helicopter camera?

I would imagine he does.

I am a photography aficionado, not an expert, but from these pictures I can not judge Di Resta's car position in relation to Alonso's.

No protest from the team or the driver though...

Edited by bl-f1, 12 September 2012 - 05:33.


#90 Zava

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:30

Does charlie get a feed from the helicopter camera?

I would imagine he does.

I am a photography aficionado, not an expert, but from these pictures I can not judge Di Resta's car position in relation to Alonso's.

No protest from the team or the driver though...

would be hypocrisy after his action with Senna, so no, not weird at all.

#91 encircled

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 17:34

Ant Davidson's analysis on sky and the incident

http://www.dailymoti...alo-start_sport

#92 Skinnyguy

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 18:15

Ant Davidson's analysis on sky and the incident

http://www.dailymoti...alo-start_sport


Thanks!! After seeing an actual video with the run out of T2 instead of pictures, I have no doubt at all di Resta MUST have been alongside. He was there from the moment they touched the throttle, and got a way better run out. No way in hell another F1 car will recover that speed differential, start pulling away, and gain 30% of a car lenght in that distance.

#93 as65p

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 20:45

Thanks!! After seeing an actual video with the run out of T2 instead of pictures, I have no doubt at all di Resta MUST have been alongside. He was there from the moment they touched the throttle, and got a way better run out. No way in hell another F1 car will recover that speed differential, start pulling away, and gain 30% of a car lenght in that distance.


You see nothing of the sort in the video. In fact you see Alonso making up quite a bit of ground on the Sauber out of the turn, suggesting he's had a pretty good traction at that point. Nothing to be seen of Di Resta in that onboard, I wonder how you can "have no doubt" what happened to him.

The only thing that would clear things up would be an onboard of Di Resta. Though there is a good chance you'd be quite disappointed with it.

#94 Skinnyguy

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 22:26

You see nothing of the sort in the video. In fact you see Alonso making up quite a bit of ground on the Sauber out of the turn, suggesting he's had a pretty good traction at that point.


Let me check the link just in case I messed up and posted the wrong one... errrh, no, it´s ok. Keep it real man!! Sauber pulls away comfortably on the exit. Way later he has nowhere to go and lifts, so Alonso gets close, but he is WAY, WAY, WAY faster on the exit of 2. Just as Paul, as shown by the chicane-cam.

Nothing to be seen of Di Resta in that onboard, I wonder how you can "have no doubt" what happened to him.


You wonder because you want to. I explained it pretty well here :wave:

He was there from the moment they touched the throttle (fact, there are photos and video showing it), and got a way better run out (fact, there are photo sequences and the chicane-cam video showing him moving way faster on the exit). No way in hell another F1 car will recover that speed differential, start pulling away, and gain 30% of a car lenght in that distance.


The only thing that would clear things up would be an onboard of Di Resta. Though there is a good chance you'd be quite disappointed with it.


Things are more than clear by now. I´d like for that cam to show up though, would be fun reading you :rolleyes:

#95 Rajdeep

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 22:42

It's not really a defense of Alonso if he did really squeeze PDR, but there's a difference with the Alonso-Vettel incident to be noted.

Alonso-PDR happened at the beginning of the Curva Grande, when the cars haven't attained full speed yet. My guess is that they're at about 3rd-4th gear by that point. Alonso-Vettel happened much later when the cars are close to 300 km/h at 7th gear. So the danger factor in the 2nd case is much higher if something went wrong. This could be a factor. Not saying it's right or wrong - just that the stewards might take this into account. Taking the full width of the track by the defending driver on the exit of a slow corner is not penalised because of the low speed.

#96 as65p

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:51

Let me check the link just in case I messed up and posted the wrong one... errrh, no, it´s ok. Keep it real man!! Sauber pulls away comfortably on the exit. Way later he has nowhere to go and lifts, so Alonso gets close, but he is WAY, WAY, WAY faster on the exit of 2. Just as Paul, as shown by the chicane-cam.

You wonder because you want to. I explained it pretty well here :wave:

He was there from the moment they touched the throttle (fact, there are photos and video showing it), and got a way better run out (fact, there are photo sequences and the chicane-cam video showing him moving way faster on the exit). No way in hell another F1 car will recover that speed differential, start pulling away, and gain 30% of a car lenght in that distance.


No you didn't. Alonsos cam doesn't shed any light on what happens to Di Resta in between the switch from cam1 to cam2. Other than Alonso checking his mirrors, making up ground to the Sauber in front while following the same line as the cars in front thereby leaving lot's of space to his left.

Things are more than clear by now. I´d like for that cam to show up though, would be fun reading you :rolleyes:


You think that because you want to. :D

I said right from the start of the argument that I'm open to be proven wrong, should better pics or onboards become available. What I'm not open to is believing in stuff you make up as you go along. :wave:

#97 juandiego

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:38

Things are more than clear (1) by now (2). :rolleyes:

But, Skinnyguy, that statement is self-contradictory: you cannot be sure of something (1) and at the same time admit that there could be evidence pointing otherwise (2). :)

I don't remember seeing Alonso's on-board footage during the live broadcasting and now Anthony Davidson's analysis shows it: it seems that on-board takes have been already released. We need Di Resta's, Anthony, not Alonso's looking at the mirror.

#98 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:26

But, Skinnyguy, that statement is self-contradictory: you cannot be sure of something (1) and at the same time admit that there could be evidence pointing otherwise (2).


When someone starts arguing semantics, it´s usually a bad sign. All I wanted to say is that all existing evidence points towards di Resta being there. I gave some reasons about why it points that way above, feel free to discuss them.

I don't remember seeing Alonso's on-board footage during the live broadcasting and now Anthony Davidson's analysis shows it: it seems that on-board takes have been already released. We need Di Resta's, Anthony, not Alonso's looking at the mirror.


You´re right about one thing: Alonso looking there doesn´t mean anything at all. He´d be checking both if di Resta was there, and if he wasn´t. Point of looking is KNOWING where the competitors are. Alonso´s look is irrelevant, and doesn´t mean anything bad for him.

However, video and photo evidence shows enough -at least IMO- to know that di Resta WAS there. I find the shots pretty good, and years of watching these cars show you that any car getting better run out of a corner is faster than another getting away poorly for a good while.

Anyway, let´s hope that the cam that would end this all shows up eventually.


#99 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:32

No you didn't. Alonsos cam doesn't shed any light on what happens to Di Resta in between the switch from cam1 to cam2.


No, OP pics (cam 2) and bottom of page 1 (chicane cam) photos do. Video only shows what happens inmediately out of the chicane.

Other than Alonso checking his mirrors, making up ground to the Sauber in front while following the same line as the cars in front thereby leaving lot's of space to his left.


What are you talking about?? Alonso´s side by side with the Sauber on the apex of 2, and seconds later he´s 2-3 car lengths behind!!

I said right from the start of the argument that I'm open to be proven wrong, should better pics or onboards become available. What I'm not open to is believing in stuff you make up as you go along. :wave:


I don´t think you are. You´d have proven wrong by now if you were opened to it...

Not made up stuff. It´s all for everyone to see on the photos/videos. :wave:

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#100 encircled

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:32

Unfortunately I could not find a di Resta onboard.

Anyway, can somebody provide a quote from Charlie Whiting regarding the start? I mean when does it end, after the first corner or the entire first lap?