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di Resta-Alonso incident


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Poll: Should Alonso have been penalized for this incident? (166 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Alonso have been penalized for this incident?

  1. Yes (77 votes [46.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.67%

  2. No (68 votes [41.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.21%

  3. I'm not sure (20 votes [12.12%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.12%

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#101 as65p

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 13:28

It´s all for everyone to see on the photos/videos. :wave:


It's the only thing we have so far. I'm refusing to fill the gaps in it with my imagination, but that's just me.

Of course you're free to believe what you will.

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#102 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 13:40

It's the only thing we have so far. I'm refusing to fill the gaps in it with my imagination, but that's just me.


OK, I respect that, but don´t say it as if it was a wild guess :D ... it isn´t!!

Don´t you agree a car getting a better exit from a corner stays at a higher speed for quite some time, providing they´re both on the same series and full throttle? Don´t you agree that the proccess to overcome that speed deficit, and even pulling away 1/3 of a car´s lenght CAN´T be completed in such a short run?

Yes, it´s a guess, but having watched motor-racing for quite some time as I presume you did, it´s quite a safe one, isn´t it?

#103 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 15:16

OK, I respect that, but don´t say it as if it was a wild guess :D ... it isn´t!!

Don´t you agree a car getting a better exit from a corner stays at a higher speed for quite some time, providing they´re both on the same series and full throttle? Don´t you agree that the proccess to overcome that speed deficit, and even pulling away 1/3 of a car´s lenght CAN´T be completed in such a short run?

Yes, it´s a guess, but having watched motor-racing for quite some time as I presume you did, it´s quite a safe one, isn´t it?

Was Alonso getting a tow? Was DiResta outside of the tow? Considering their respective start line performance, would you consider the Farrari to have better or worse traction? Was Alonso looking in the mirror because he saw dust kick up? Was he checking to be sure he was past DiResta?

Nowhere near enough information available and the pictures are simply not clear enough.

#104 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 15:40

Was Alonso getting a tow? Was DiResta outside of the tow?



Well, that´s not a question mark, we have Alonso´s onboard. Car in front of Alonso was a Sauber, with a better exit and pulling a healthy 2-3 car lenghts advantage margin over him, and also without really high speeds being done before the hot spot. Not really too much of a factor. Only thing that actually makes me doubt a 1% about this is KERS usage, which can make a big difference and break this car dynamic dogmas I came up with... still I´m pretty sure both of them have quite some KERS left, as starting in the middle of the pack you rarely get the change to use it all before T1.

Considering their respective start line performance, would you consider the Farrari to have better or worse traction?



Ferrari has very nice traction, better than FI, but if you don´t hook a corner nicely, and other does, raw performance becomes a very little factor in your getaway. A McLaren will get a worse getaway off La Source having left the racing line to defend going into the corner than a Toro Rosso using the normal line any lap.

Was Alonso looking in the mirror because he saw dust kick up? Was he checking to be sure he was past DiResta?


Agreed, that´s a big question mark. I´ve said before the fact he´s looking there means nothing. He wanted to know where Paul was, and that doesn´t tell us anything about where he actually was.

Nowhere near enough information available and the pictures are simply not clear enough.


We´ll disagree there. I am sure Paul was squeezed off the track in a straight line, with lots of room for both of them to keep it full throttle and have a fair fight into second chicane... hadn´t Alonso avoided it. Anyway let´s hope for that onboard - or one from a car behind them- to pop up.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 13 September 2012 - 15:44.


#105 P123

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:03

Was Alonso getting a tow? Was DiResta outside of the tow? Considering their respective start line performance, would you consider the Farrari to have better or worse traction? Was Alonso looking in the mirror because he saw dust kick up? Was he checking to be sure he was past DiResta?

Nowhere near enough information available and the pictures are simply not clear enough.


The defence of Alonso based on the apparent inconclusive photographs is disingenuous. Basic common sense says nobody goes off track without reason, particularly a flat out curve. Simple viewing of the start replays shows that Alonso got worse traction out of the chicane due to running wide on cement dust, di resta was pulling alongside (hey, why alonso was cheking his mirrors- or maybe he's just vain) and Alonso felt the need to check his mirrors and move to defend.

And no, I'm not calling for a penalty, but Alonso certainly wasn't practicing what he was preaching post- Spa.

#106 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:21

The defence of Alonso based on the apparent inconclusive photographs is disingenuous.

As is the condemnation. The main argument employed here is not in defence of Alonso but to point out there is nothing conclusive about any of the images we have. It's all been extrapolated. Alonso might have been bad. He may have pushed DiResta off and then hypocritically complained about Vettel, but nothing in the thread demonstrates this one way or the other.

Basic common sense says nobody goes off track without reason, particularly a flat out curve. Simple viewing of the start replays shows that Alonso got worse traction out of the chicane due to running wide on cement dust, di resta was pulling alongside (hey, why alonso was cheking his mirrors- or maybe he's just vain) and Alonso felt the need to check his mirrors and move to defend.

Well that's the main defence here, isn't it? Why would DiResta go on the grass unless he was forced to? Cars get out of shape all the time with a bit of overdriving here and there, adrenaline rushing from the start and slightly angered by being taken at the start line. There's no doubt at all that DiResta was at one point to the side of Alonso, he may very well have been pushed off, but you cannot see that or demonstrate it, let alone be critical that penalties are not being applied fairly.

As a BTW for Skinnyguy; The camera showing the Sauber accelerating ahead is also no indication at all of the relative performance of the Force India versus Ferrari due to the funny wide lens in use, as well as the usual bunching effect seen at any corner. The car in front simply gets to push the pedal first, as you will know from all your years watching motorsport.

#107 as65p

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 17:48

As is the condemnation. The main argument employed here is not in defence of Alonso but to point out there is nothing conclusive about any of the images we have. It's all been extrapolated. Alonso might have been bad. He may have pushed DiResta off and then hypocritically complained about Vettel, but nothing in the thread demonstrates this one way or the other.

Well that's the main defence here, isn't it? Why would DiResta go on the grass unless he was forced to? Cars get out of shape all the time with a bit of overdriving here and there, adrenaline rushing from the start and slightly angered by being taken at the start line. There's no doubt at all that DiResta was at one point to the side of Alonso, he may very well have been pushed off, but you cannot see that or demonstrate it, let alone be critical that penalties are not being applied fairly.


:up: This, and hopefully carrying more weight than my posts, with the stigma of an Alonso fan.  ;)

#108 P123

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 19:01

As is the condemnation. The main argument employed here is not in defence of Alonso but to point out there is nothing conclusive about any of the images we have. It's all been extrapolated. Alonso might have been bad. He may have pushed DiResta off and then hypocritically complained about Vettel, but nothing in the thread demonstrates this one way or the other.

Well that's the main defence here, isn't it? Why would DiResta go on the grass unless he was forced to? Cars get out of shape all the time with a bit of overdriving here and there, adrenaline rushing from the start and slightly angered by being taken at the start line. There's no doubt at all that DiResta was at one point to the side of Alonso, he may very well have been pushed off, but you cannot see that or demonstrate it, let alone be critical that penalties are not being applied fairly.


You must have missed the bit where I stated I don't believe Alonso should have been penalised. I'm not arguing for a penalty or complaining that they or whatever else are unfair.

It seems you are on a quest for irrefutable proof, although such has never stopped judgements being made before- buts lets see if such standards are pursued in debates involving other drivers.... Anyway, common sense, based on what we do know, points to Alonso forcing di Resta wide. You can invent as many implausible reasons as you wish for Alonso looking in his mirror, and you can invent a colourful backstory behind why di Resta may have ran wide........................ anything to attempt to skip by the obvious explanation which is supported by numerous factors. We know that one driver achieved a better exit from the chicane, we know that one driver pulled partially alongside the other, we know that one driver checked their mirrors, and we know one driver ran partially off track. None of it happened in isolation. It's all one incident which began with one driver getting a run on another and was over in a couple of seconds.

#109 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 21:06

If you're going to accuse me of being disingenuous, at least be sure exactly what it is that I'm arguing. Your words did not demonstrate an understanding of that, so I hope it's now clear.

You are free to jump to an absolute conclusion based on fuzzy images and extrapolation if you like, but if you do, be sure to leave wriggle room. No attempt to skip by any possible explanation on my part as I thought I made clear ("he may very well have been pushed off").

#110 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 21:33

The car in front simply gets to push the pedal first, as you will know from all your years watching motorsport.


Concertina effect happens to a driver exiting a corner BEHIND another driver: then you have to wait to hit the throttle until he does, because he´s on your way. Even if you pay attention to other cars in that situation around them, they don´t pull such a gap on each other.

However, Alonso and the Sauber weren´t even like that, they went into 2 side by side. Alonso got a crap exit because his front tyres slid in the cement and he had to wait a lot to be pointing in the right direction to hit the gas, not because there was a car on his way avoiding him to do so. This is not a case of Sauber pulling away because of concertina effect. If you exit a slow corner racing side by side with another guy through it, one doesn´t normally pull away 3 car lengts because of concertina effect, as you will surely know after years of watching that scenario, and can check by the fact that the field doesn´t automatically spread out with big gaps of about 3 car lengths after turns 1 and 2. These big gaps develop -there are a few of them after T2- only when someone gets it very wrong compared to the cars around, and Alonso did, as the car in front pulled away easily, and the driver behind managed to get alongside him. How I know about the FI?

The camera showing the Sauber accelerating ahead is also no indication at all of the relative performance of the Force India versus Ferrari due to the funny wide lens in use, as well as the usual bunching effect seen at any corner.


True. Of course it doesn´t. The pics in the bottom of page1 -and the first one from the OP- are the ones being used to evaluate the exit speed from both. The later the photo is taken, the further alongside that FI is. That proves a better exit, there´s not interpretation involved really. The two pics near the bottom of page one show the FI going faster, and you have a thrid one on the OP, from a later moment, and he´s even further alongside. That car did exit the coner way faster than the Ferrari, and I can´t imagine how that can that be reversed in a couple of seconds when we talk about 2 Formula 1 cars just going full throttle in a straight line.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 13 September 2012 - 21:48.


#111 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 21:55

Once again you're arguing what you think the details are but we don't have those details.

The gap to the Sauber appears very quickly after the corner and for all that you can see from any of the overhead shots, remains very constant until the image goes. There's very little difference and no way at all to extrapolate beyond that point using the onboard which you have at least accepted will not give a true picture. Neither will the long front-on pictures which suffer from a foreshortening effect.

There's no way I can convince you that you don't have enough information to be certain, I understand that, so I'll have to consider your 1% KERS doubt a significant win.

#112 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 22:03

There's no way I can convince you that you don't have enough information to be certain, I understand that, so I'll have to consider your 1% KERS doubt a significant win.


Yes, I´m afraid it´s like that.

Sorry, but if I see a dead deer on the road, and then there´s a striken car 40 meters down the road with blood on the windscreen and the top smashed... Then I don´t need to see the crash to be sure it was him the one that crashed into the animal.

Still waiting for some kind forumer to come up with a nice video of the deer incid... I mean, of the start of the GP. :p

#113 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 22:08

No question that the deer in this instance was hit, but you can't know whether the car drove at a stationary deer or whether it ran out unexpectedly.

#114 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 23:11

No question that the deer in this instance was hit, but you can't know whether the car drove at a stationary deer or whether it ran out unexpectedly.


But that´s only because all F1 fans know about deers is that "it´s like a horse with horns".



If it was a racing incident, we could debunk it :smoking:

#115 ali_M

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:31

Watched the race start a number of times.

Brundle said: "... and I think it was Paul DiResta getting out on the dirt, hmmm, all by himself in a way..."

I tend to agree there. No penalty from where I'm sitting. It's not the same as the Vettel/Alonso incident. DiResta insisted where he should have backed out.

Edited by ali_M, 14 September 2012 - 10:34.


#116 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 11:54

I think ALO deserves penalty, he has give space to Di Resta because he is alongside the Ferrari. FIN.

#117 PoleMan

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 16:34

Watched the race start a number of times.

Brundle said: "... and I think it was Paul DiResta getting out on the dirt, hmmm, all by himself in a way..."

I tend to agree there. No penalty from where I'm sitting. It's not the same as the Vettel/Alonso incident. DiResta insisted where he should have backed out.

:up:

I think the same. I don't have the absolute self-assuredness of Skinny Guy and P123, but based on my observation (I've re-watched the race about 5 or 7 times), Alonso is in front of diResta and is roughly in the middle of the circuit, as are the cars in front of him. There is plenty of room to Alonso's left. I think Paul had room, but was carrying too much speed and made a mistake...kind of like he does on Lap 12, ALL BY HIMSELF! That would also be the most likely explanation for why we haven't heard a PEEP about this from Paul or FI...it was a simple driving error.

But I'm sure P123 and SkinnyGuy have another theory. So guys can u explain who forced diResta onto the dirt on Lap 12, then, because he was well and truly off? :)

#118 BackOnTop

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 16:51

First lap right after the start
Charlie doesn't do penalties in that situation
also no sane steward will penalize a Ferrari in Monza for such a trivial thing

Romain Grosjean - Banned!!!!!

#119 abc

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 20:03

:up:

There is plenty of room to Alonso's left. I think Paul had room, but was carrying too much speed and made a mistake...kind of like he does on Lap 12, ALL BY HIMSELF!


Absolute bollocks. Surely he can drive on straight. These theories are fascinating :drunk:

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#120 PoleMan

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 00:34

Absolute bollocks. Surely he can drive on straight. These theories are fascinating :drunk:

:lol:

Oh my! Exactly what is absolute bollocks? That Alonso wasn't in the middle of the road behind Kamui, or that diResta didn't throw himself off the road on lap 12? :lol: :lol: :lol:

No angle of the Alonso-diResta incident is absolutely definitive, but the two things I've stated are there for the naked, "HONEST," eye to see. That doesn't mean Fernando didn't interfere with Paul, but until we see a di Resta onboard, those firm in their belief that Alonso ran him off, have only that desperate belief to cling to. Fortunately, the folks that matter, diResta, FI and the race stewards, saw no problem with the maneuver. That leaves just a few bitter folks on a public forum-- FULL of hate for Alonso but THIN on any EVIDENCE of wrongdoing--wailing, whining and gnashing their teeth about a non-event. I can live with that! ;)

Edited by PoleMan, 15 September 2012 - 00:37.


#121 abc

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 07:33

:lol:

Oh my! Exactly what is absolute bollocks? That Alonso wasn't in the middle of the road behind Kamui, or that diResta didn't throw himself off the road on lap 12? :lol: :lol: :lol:

No angle of the Alonso-diResta incident is absolutely definitive, but the two things I've stated are there for the naked, "HONEST," eye to see. That doesn't mean Fernando didn't interfere with Paul, but until we see a di Resta onboard, those firm in their belief that Alonso ran him off, have only that desperate belief to cling to. Fortunately, the folks that matter, diResta, FI and the race stewards, saw no problem with the maneuver. That leaves just a few bitter folks on a public forum-- FULL of hate for Alonso but THIN on any EVIDENCE of wrongdoing--wailing, whining and gnashing their teeth about a non-event. I can live with that! ;)

Your style of writing is jewel as is last but one sentence in your revelation.  ;)

#122 encircled

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 07:49

Anyway, can somebody provide a quote from Charlie Whiting regarding the start? I mean when does it end, after the first corner or the entire first lap?


Anyone?

#123 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 21:50

Anyone?


It´s irrelevant. You can´t push people to the grass "because it´s the start". Ask Romain.

There´s lots of people with that "it´s the start" stuff. There´s nothing making that moment different from any other from a legal point of view. The stewards take a less agressive approach judging incidents for obvious reasons, but it´s not as if racing etiquette suddenly vanishes for seconds and this is carmageddon. You CAN´T push people alongside to the grass for no reason.

I respect other opinions, but Poleman, would like to know something, I´m thrilled... how did di Resta manage to be "carrying too much speed" there? What does that mean exactly? 450 km/h? And how did he "make a mistake" during a straight? He forgot that the road was that black stuff?? This issue can be twisted to dead, but there´s no way di Resta would have left the track in a straight without being squeezed by someone. No way. Surely I admit OP pics angle make distances between cars in the Z axis hard to judge (that´s why I trust other stuff to determine their positions, like previous corner exit), but the X axis is perfectly clear, and there was no room for a car alongside Alonso to stay in the road. That´s why di Resta went off.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 16 September 2012 - 21:52.


#124 Zava

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 23:25

It´s irrelevant. You can´t push people to the grass "because it´s the start". Ask Romain.

There´s lots of people with that "it´s the start" stuff. There´s nothing making that moment different from any other from a legal point of view. The stewards take a less agressive approach judging incidents for obvious reasons, but it´s not as if racing etiquette suddenly vanishes for seconds and this is carmageddon. You CAN´T push people alongside to the grass for no reason.

I respect other opinions, but Poleman, would like to know something, I´m thrilled... how did di Resta manage to be "carrying too much speed" there? What does that mean exactly? 450 km/h? And how did he "make a mistake" during a straight? He forgot that the road was that black stuff?? This issue can be twisted to dead, but there´s no way di Resta would have left the track in a straight without being squeezed by someone. No way. Surely I admit OP pics angle make distances between cars in the Z axis hard to judge (that´s why I trust other stuff to determine their positions, like previous corner exit), but the X axis is perfectly clear, and there was no room for a car alongside Alonso to stay in the road. That´s why di Resta went off.

also: "carrying too much speed" on a full acceleration part of the track would mean he accelerated better than Alonso (who wasn't carrying too much speed, as he stayed on road), thus he was alongside. :smoking:

#125 Gareth

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:07

My thoughts on this:

1. If Di Resta had his front wing alongside Alonso's rear wheels or more, it should have been a penalty.

2. I can't tell if that was the case from the pictures.

3. The fact that neither Di Resta or FI complained suggests he may not have.

4. The fact Di Resta took to the grass suggests he may have (I find it difficult to believe he got "out of shape" on a bit of track that is essentially a straight).

Point 2 is ultimately the most important one, though.

#126 juandiego

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:01

4. The fact Di Resta took to the grass suggests he may have (I find it difficult to believe he got "out of shape" on a bit of track that is essentially a straight).

Hi Gareth.
On the other hand, I also find it difficult to believe that Alonso would have on purpose run the risk of pushing Di Resta's front wing with his rear wheels because this often ends up in your own misfortune —and Sky's footage shows Alonso was definitely checking. Even if Di Resta's FW was alongside Alonso's rear wheels, still the overtaking was hardly possible through that line.

When someone starts arguing semantics, it´s usually a bad sign. All I wanted to say is that all existing evidence points towards di Resta being there. I gave some reasons about why it points that way above, feel free to discuss them.

Hi Skinnyguy.

This was not only about arguing hardly relevant semantics. Either you are totally sure therefore you don't need additional evidence and feel the right to claim the penalty, or you are not, therefore you have to suspend your judgement on the matter: Alonso cannot be guilty until it's proven otherwise just because it may seem.

As for my reason not to be sure, I also have already stated it in this thread: basically it's that, from the available footage, it's not clear at all whether or not Di Resta's front wing reached Alonso's rear wheels level, and if it did, whether or not Alonso had yielded enough room on track at that precise moment —which would be the only relevant fact.

------------------
As an aside note, it seems to me odd that a TV channel like Sky, which is trying to work this out, already has Alonso's on-board footage but doesn't have Di Resta's. I would have assumed that on-board takes are available to whomever pay for them and all at the same time. What's happening here? Ok, perhaps for some reason it doesn't exist but I doubt it.

Edited by juandiego, 19 September 2012 - 09:24.