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Tom Jones - no longer a mystery! (merged)


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#51 Gabrci

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 06:48




And it would also be nice if Gabrci (or someone who copied it) could repost the McLaren shot as well.

 

Here you go, Ray:

 

6741_CAN_Bruce_Mc_Laren_in_Tom_Jones_Coo



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#52 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 16:24

Is that the same car as post 44?



#53 Gabrci

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 16:31

Is that the same car as post 44?

 

Yeah, good question, I don't know. I have this photo saved on my hard drive named as it is (McLaren in Jones' Cooper, 67 Canada) but I'm afraid I don't remember where this information and the photo came from. 



#54 group7

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 00:56

post # 44,Jones in pit lane, is definitely Mosport, I recognize the pit counter at left, and the pavement. as for post # 55 by Gabrci,  I might be wrong, but that wall with the growth doesn't ring a bell for me as being Mosport. maybe some else from Canada could chime in and clarify.

 

Mike (group7) in Canada



#55 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 01:44

Roger Clark
What makes you say it's a Maserati?  Contemporary reports said it was an FWMV and that what it looks like to me.


Rash incorrect assumption, Roger...

There had been no mention thus far in the thread about the engine and with the FA connection I assumed something larger like about 3-litres. Was the FWMV out to 2-litres? If not, I wouldn't have thought it could run in this race.

If this is a T83, he obviously didn't stand a chance. According to the Cooper website this was a totally failed model, then it was burdened with a lot of ballast to get to the 3-litre F1 minimum weight. At best the car had to be slower than the Cooper 1.5-litre F1 car... which I don't recall setting the world on fire.

Though the T79 had some success at Zeltweg...

#56 Roger Clark

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 05:53

http://www.conceptca...Cooper-T82.aspx This site says that it is a T82, the 1966 F2 car, chassis number F2-2-66. I don't know the website, so can't say how reliable it is, but Motor Sport (MJT not DSJ) quoted the same chassis number. The car in the pit lane photograph seems to have an extra fuel tank over the driver's legs which would surely have been necessary if fitted with a larger engine and raced over a full Grand Prix distance.

The engine of the pit lane car looks to be too big for the chassis; the cam covers extend beyond the chassis tube. This is not the case in Gabrci's picture which seems to be much neater. That picture also shows no sign of the inlet trumpets of a V8. I also think that the pit lane car has a more substantial rollover bar.

Motor Sport said that this was only Jones' second race in a rear engined car, the first being the week before at Watkins Glen. There was a 500km race for production cars that weekend at the Glen but there could have been a race for single seaters (unless Jones' previous rear engined experience was a 911 or something).

I don't think it's very likely that Bruce McLaren would have tried Jones' car at Mosport. He left Cooper almost two years earlier and was busy that weekend sorting out the new M5A.

Motor Sport and Autosport both said that Jones had a 2-litre FWMV. If so, it's interesting to speculate where it might have come from. Climax built two such engines in 1966 and loaned them to Team Lotus. They also loaned them to Donald Healey for use at Le Mans in 1968/69 I think that Michael McDowell used one in British hill climbing in 1970/71. (Des Hammil's history of Climax Racing engines says that McDowell had a third big-valve engine but doesn't explicitly say that it was a 2-litre). I think it's unlikely that Climax would have loaned one of these engines to a private entrant in a far-away country.

It is possible that Jones built a 2-litre engine himself Climax did it by combining the bore of one of the last series of engines with the crankshaft of an early long stroke engine. It is also possible that Jones said that it had a 2-litre engine to secure an entry.

#57 Roger Clark

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 05:57


Though the T79 had some success at Zeltweg...

When?

#58 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 08:28

That was a reference to 'setting the world on fire'...

1964.

#59 Tim Murray

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 09:37

Phil Hill's fiery Zeltweg crash was in a T66 (FI-6-63). The T79 came later.

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#60 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 10:26

So Phil had an older car still?

I was going on the T79 being the '64 F1 car.

#61 Tim Murray

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 10:49

The 1964 F1 car was the T73, but as Phil had crashed his T73 in practice at Zeltweg he had to use the old spare T66 in the race. The second crash in the race caused the bust up with John Cooper that led to his sacking. The T79 was the car Bruce used in the 1965 Tasman series.

#62 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 11:22

I actually knew the T79 was the Tasman car... I've just written a story about its big race win...

However, the list on the Cooper site said it was a '64 car and I took it to mean that the Tasman car was a re-engined F1 car.

Anyway, it was all about the fire, not the car model.

#63 Cynic2

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 20:44

Allen,

 

I have a color image of Tom Jones at the 1967 ARRC at Daytona, in a F/A Cooper (as I recall almost a half-century later) was described as an F2; I believe fitted with a Climax V8.  It was taken late in the day on the front straight; the light is failing, the image was scanned from a transparency so it's a bit fuzzy, but it shows a lot of details.

 

I though I sent you the image years ago ?  My ImageShack account has gone somewhere, so I don't know how to post it here.  I'll be happy to send you the image, and if you (or someone else) wants to post it I'll send the image and be grateful for the help.

 

David Seibert



#64 Tim Murray

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 19:18

I have a color image of Tom Jones at the 1967 ARRC at Daytona, in a F/A Cooper ...


David emailed me his photo:

CooperARRC1.jpg