1198 replies to this topic

[bourbon]

So Alonso is to blame for the stupid pit strategy Ferrari chose in the final race of 2010? Alonso came second in Brazil last year in a car that was not fast enough for second place, and out scored Vettel in the final races. What else do you suggest he do?

Match Massa?

I think we didn't see the same championship in 2012...Alonso lost it due to the pressure???? I guess the fact that Red Bull had a huge upgrade from SIngapore onwards that allowed Vettel to win 4 in a row doesn't have anything to do...

Well perhaps it was not the pressure - but something was impacting his performance as compared to Massa.

If that was true then Vettel should have beaten him by more than 3 points last year.

Well I respect your view on that, however, I suppose we should agree to disagree as we are drifting from the topic.

My point is that Seb has proven he is good enough to put up a battle against any teammate. I don't think Alonso wants any more battles the likes of what he had at McLaren. Frankly, I don't think Seb would wish to deal with that either. So I don't see Seb going to Ferrari while Alonso is there. I think Seb would have the edge - if he did go, but since he likely won't, it is a rather moot point.

[RogerS]

Match Massa?

How many extra points would that have given him? Please tell us.

My point is that Seb has proven he is good enough to put up a battle against any teammate.

Actually so far he has only proven he is good enough to beat beat Mark Webber (most of of the time). You cannot extrapolate that to 'good enough to battle anyone' unless you suggest Mark Webber is as good as anyone else on the grid.

[bourbon]

How many extra points would that have given him? Please tell us.

None. Not sure what that has to do with his performance though...

Actually so far he has only proven he is good enough to beat beat Mark Webber (most of of the time). You cannot extrapolate that to 'good enough to battle anyone' unless you suggest Mark Webber is as good as anyone else on the grid.

I don't extrapolate from Vettel's performance against Webber. Teammates can give you an idea of the potential of a car - but apart from that, comparisons are useless, imo.

I suppose we have to agree to disagree on the rest. We will see what happens in the upcoming seasons - but my bet is on Vettel going to Ferrari once Alonso leaves.

[krea]

Actually so far he has only proven he is good enough to beat beat Mark Webber (most of of the time). You cannot extrapolate that to 'good enough to battle anyone' unless you suggest Mark Webber is as good as anyone else on the grid.

The same could you say about Alonso.
The only actual drivers who beat another WDC were Hamilton, Button, Massa and Rosberg.

Edited by krea, 15 May 2013 - 07:52.

[RogerS]

The same could you say about Alonso.
The only actual drivers who beat another WDC were Hamilton, Button, Massa and Rosberg.

Alonso's best team mate has not been Mark Webber, and he has proven himself against better teams mates and more of them.
'Beat a world champion' is a way too narrow of a criteria anyway.

[krea]

Alonso's best team mate has not been Mark Webber, and he has proven himself against better teams mates and more of them.
'Beat a world champion' is a way too narrow of a criteria anyway.

Which driver did he beat which are/were significantly better than Webber?

I didn't start the nonsense about beating team mates.

Edited by krea, 15 May 2013 - 08:00.

[RogerS]

Which driver did he beat which are/were significantly better than Webber?

I didn't start the nonsense about beating team mates.

Neither did I, but thrashing Massa, who almost won a title and matching Hamilton is far more impressive than beating Mark Webber (most of the time). I was just pointing out Vettel has not yet proved he can take on anyone on the grid and battle them. So far he has only proven be better than Mark Webber, who nobody ever rated before 2009.

Edited by RogerS, 15 May 2013 - 08:09.

[mnmracer]

They both finished the same number of races, so it balanced out.

Pretty simplistic way of looking at things.
For instance, surely Alonso gained more in regards to Vettel in Valencia (25+13 points swing), then Vettel did to Alonso in Spa (18 + 3 points swing).

Vettel lost a net (so lost and gained) 37 points in 2012 due to mechanical failures and other misfortune of himself and his competitors, outside his control.
Alonso gained a net (so lost and gained) 28 points in 2012 due to mechanical failures and other misfortune of himself and his competitors, outside his control.

Edited by mnmracer, 15 May 2013 - 08:22.

[RogerS]

Pretty simplistic way of looking at things.
For instance, surely Alonso gained more in regards to Vettel in Valencia (25+13 points swing), then Vettel did to Alonso in Spa (18 + 3 points swing).

Vettel lost a net (so lost and gained) 37 points in 2012 due to mechanical failures and other misfortune of himself and his competitors, outside his control.
Alonso gained a net (so lost and gained) 28 points in 2012 due to mechanical failures and other misfortune of himself and his competitors, outside his control.

can you detail how you to came to those conclusions? Alonso lost 36 points from Lotus drivers taking him out, plus at least 7 at Monza, so thats 43, so not sure how you concluded he gained so much.

Edited by RogerS, 15 May 2013 - 08:28.

[TheThirdTenor1]

can you detail how you to came to those conclusions?

Indeed. the 25+13 swing at Valencia for Alonso is a strange one.

[apoka]

Nobody is suggesting Vettel did not do a good job. We are not discussing that.

You replied to a poster who said that Vettel is not better than Massa and pretty much agreed. Considering what Massa has achieved in 2012, you are suggesting that Vettel did not do a good job. If not, what are we discussing really?

Vettel was only consistent from mid season, and that does not count as 'consistent' overall.

He was consistent throughout the whole season - he just didn't always have the car to win. More or less the only thing you can hold against him in 2012 is that qualy in the first races was not up to his usual standard (but then, Webber has a very good qualy record even considering that his team mates before were not all top notch). In the races, Vettel was very consistent.

Edited by apoka, 15 May 2013 - 08:34.

[RogerS]

He was consistent throughout the whole season - he just didn't always have the car to win. More or less the only thing you can hold against him in 2012 is that qualy in the first races was not up to his usual standard (but then, Webber has a very good qualy record even considering that his team mates before were not all top notch). In the races, Vettel was very consistent.

If he was consistent he would not have trailed Webber until Spa in points, and there would not have been races where he could not even qualify in the top 10 when Webber was on pole and winning Monaco. Race weekends included qualifying and races, not one or the other, its part of being the complete package as a driver. I think Ferrari would be disappointed in Vettel just as they were with Kimi once they see what they can do without Newey support.

Edited by RogerS, 15 May 2013 - 08:45.

[TheThirdTenor1]

He was consistent throughout the whole season

He was not. In the first half of the season he had just 3 podium finishes. In the second half he had 7.

he just didn't always have the car to win.

No one had a car that always capable of winning. But clearly he had a car capable of winning at Monaco and Silverstone yet he was no where close to the victory in those races.

More or less the only thing you can hold against him in 2012 is that qualy in the first races was not up to his usual standard (but then, Webber has a very good qualy record even considering that his team mates before were not all top notch). In the races, Vettel was very consistent.

It was not only the first part of the season, he was out qualified 9 times by Webber. It's nothing to be embarrassed about, but you would expect better from a driver who some people were calling the "qualifying master, as good as Senna etc." at the end of 2011.

[mnmracer]

can you detail how you to came to those conclusions? Alonso lost 36 points from Lotus drivers taking him out, plus at least 7 at Monza, so thats 43, so not sure how you concluded he gained so much.

AUS: Alonso gained 4 points through Schumacher and Grosjean. (ALO +3 | Vet +0)
MAL: Vettel lost 12 points through Karthikeyan. (ALO +3 | Vet -12)
BAH: Alonso gained 4 points through Hamilton and Button. (ALO +7 | Vet -12)
ESP: Alonso gained 3 points through Hamilton | Vettel lost on front wing, gained on Hamilton (evens out). (ALO +10 | Vet -12)
MON: Vettel gained 2 points through Schumacher. (ALO +10 | Vet -10)
EUR: Alonso gained 13 points through Vettel, Grosjean and Webber | Vettel lost 25 points through alternator. (ALO +23 | Vet -35)
HUN: Alonso gained 2 points through Webber. (ALO +25 | Vet -35)
BEL: Alonso lost 18 points through Grosjean | Vettel gained 3 points through Grosjean. (ALO +5 | Vet -32)
ITA: Alonso lost 3 points through qualifying | Vettel lost 8 points through alternator. (ALO +2 | Vet -43)
SIN: Vettel gained 7 points through Hamilton. (ALO +2 | Vet -37)
IND: Alonso gained 3 points through Webber. (ALO +5 | Vet -37)
ABU: Alonso gained 6 points through Hamilton and Vettel | Vettel lost 3 points through fuel. (ALO +8 | Vet -40)
USA: Alonso gained 5 points through Button and Webber. (ALO +13 | Vet -40)
BRA: Alonso gained 3 points through Hamilton. (ALO +16 | Vet -40)

Indeed. the 25+13 swing at Valencia for Alonso is a strange one.

Had Valencia happened without luck or bad luck, Vettel would have scored 25 points, and Grosjean and Webber would have finished ahead of Alonso, leaving him with 12 points.
Instead, not only did Vettel lost 25 points, Alonso gained 13 points = 38 points swing.

[TheThirdTenor1]

AUS: Alonso gained 4 points through Schumacher and Grosjean. (ALO +3 | Vet +0)
MAL: Vettel lost 12 points through Karthikeyan. (ALO +3 | Vet -12)
BAH: Alonso gained 4 points through Hamilton and Button. (ALO +7 | Vet -12)
ESP: Alonso gained 3 points through Hamilton | Vettel lost on front wing, gained on Hamilton (evens out). (ALO +10 | Vet -12)
MON: Vettel gained 2 points through Schumacher. (ALO +10 | Vet -10)
EUR: Alonso gained 13 points through Vettel, Grosjean and Webber | Vettel lost 25 points through alternator. (ALO +23 | Vet -35)
HUN: Alonso gained 2 points through Webber. (ALO +25 | Vet -35)
BEL: Alonso lost 18 points through Grosjean | Vettel gained 3 points through Grosjean. (ALO +5 | Vet -32)
ITA: Alonso lost 3 points through qualifying | Vettel lost 8 points through alternator. (ALO +2 | Vet -43)
SIN: Vettel gained 7 points through Hamilton. (ALO +2 | Vet -37)
IND: Alonso gained 3 points through Webber. (ALO +5 | Vet -37)
ABU: Alonso gained 6 points through Hamilton and Vettel | Vettel lost 3 points through fuel. (ALO +8 | Vet -40)
USA: Alonso gained 5 points through Button and Webber. (ALO +13 | Vet -40)
BRA: Alonso gained 3 points through Hamilton. (ALO +16 | Vet -40)


Had Valencia happened without luck or bad luck, Vettel would have scored 25 points, and Grosjean and Webber would have finished ahead of Alonso, leaving him with 12 points.
Instead, not only did Vettel lost 25 points, Alonso gained 13 points = 38 points swing.

So say for Spa, you are assuming Vettel would have passed Grosjean, Hamilton, Perez and Kobayashi on his way to 3rd place?

[mnmracer]

So say for Spa, you are assuming Vettel would have passed Grosjean, Hamilton, Perez and Kobayashi on his way to 3rd place?

The point still stands going by your assumption (-40 or -32 is still a huge gap), but few that have seen Vettel's drive in Spa would doubt that.

Edited by mnmracer, 15 May 2013 - 09:13.

[TheThirdTenor1]

The point still stands going by your assumption (-40 or -32 is still a huge gap), but few that have seen Vettel's drive in Spa would doubt that.

The point is you don't know how fast the Saubers would have been, or if Vettel would have been held up by them or even ended up in a racing incident with them. Same goes for Hamilton and Grosjean.

I only picked that 1 flaw with your list because it stood out the most. There are many others.

[JRodrigues]

I think Ferrari would be disappointed in Vettel just as they were with Kimi once they see what they can do without Newey support.

I LOL'ed.

2007 Drivers' Championship
1. Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari 110

2012 Drivers' Championship

1. Sebastian VettelRed Bull 281
2. Fernando AlonsoFerrari 278
3. Kimi RäikkönenLotus 207

2013 FIA Formula 1 Drivers' World Championship
1 Sebastian Vettel Ger Red Bull 89
2 Kimi Raikkonen Fin Lotus 85

How many championships has Fernando won in his super-Ferrari team? How many seconds did he bring to the car?

Edited by JRodrigues, 15 May 2013 - 09:32.

[RogerS]

AUS: Alonso gained 4 points through Schumacher and Grosjean. (ALO +3 | Vet +0)
MAL: Vettel lost 12 points through Karthikeyan. (ALO +3 | Vet -12)
BAH: Alonso gained 4 points through Hamilton and Button. (ALO +7 | Vet -12)
ESP: Alonso gained 3 points through Hamilton | Vettel lost on front wing, gained on Hamilton (evens out). (ALO +10 | Vet -12)
MON: Vettel gained 2 points through Schumacher. (ALO +10 | Vet -10)
EUR: Alonso gained 13 points through Vettel, Grosjean and Webber | Vettel lost 25 points through alternator. (ALO +23 | Vet -35)
HUN: Alonso gained 2 points through Webber. (ALO +25 | Vet -35)
BEL: Alonso lost 18 points through Grosjean | Vettel gained 3 points through Grosjean. (ALO +5 | Vet -32)
ITA: Alonso lost 3 points through qualifying | Vettel lost 8 points through alternator. (ALO +2 | Vet -43)
SIN: Vettel gained 7 points through Hamilton. (ALO +2 | Vet -37)
IND: Alonso gained 3 points through Webber. (ALO +5 | Vet -37)
ABU: Alonso gained 6 points through Hamilton and Vettel | Vettel lost 3 points through fuel. (ALO +8 | Vet -40)
USA: Alonso gained 5 points through Button and Webber. (ALO +13 | Vet -40)
BRA: Alonso gained 3 points through Hamilton. (ALO +16 | Vet -40)


Had Valencia happened without luck or bad luck, Vettel would have scored 25 points, and Grosjean and Webber would have finished ahead of Alonso, leaving him with 12 points.
Instead, not only did Vettel lost 25 points, Alonso gained 13 points = 38 points swing.

Hilarious. Firstly, your whole premise is flawed, by including every driver on the grid rather than the two drivers we are comparing. For example if Vettel lead and won every single race from pole, and Alonso gained +100 points from others misfortune, What would that tell us? It means nothing relative to Vettel because he was not impacted. You can only compare Alonso vs Vettel, like when Alonso gained from Vettels valencia dnf. Secondly you claim Vettel only gained 9 points in the entire season, through others misfortune. lol. So when Alonso gained points at Brazil from Hamilton I guess Vettel did not? How does that work?

You blame Karthikeyan for Vettel turning into him, but you blame Alonso for turning into Kimi at Suzuka.


I could go on and on.

Edited by RogerS, 15 May 2013 - 10:24.

[swerved]

I could go on and on.

We know.

[sopa]

Hello again, dear Alo-Vet debating friends.

RogerS - how can you say nobody rated Webber before 2009? You should go back in time and read threads. Webber before getting to a top team (RBR) was rated way higher than Massa before getting to a top team (Ferrari).

And if anyone is blaming Vettel for not dominating in 2012 (winning by mere 3 points), then why is not Alonso dominating in 2013 with the best car? Because I see that Vettel is leading the WDC in a car, which is often worse than Ferrari and Lotus. So these arguments backfire and as you see, much depends on luck and circumstance. If Alonso in 2012 was doing miracles by leading the WDC in a sub-par car, the same can be said about Vettel in 2013.

[encircled]

We know.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Hello again, dear Alo-Vet debating friends.

RogerS - how can you say nobody rated Webber before 2009? You should go back in time and read threads. Webber before getting to a top team (RBR) was rated way higher than Massa before getting to a top team (Ferrari).

And if anyone is blaming Vettel for not dominating in 2012 (winning by mere 3 points), then why is not Alonso dominating in 2013 with the best car? Because I see that Vettel is leading the WDC in a car, which is often worse than Ferrari and Lotus. So these arguments backfire and as you see, much depends on luck and circumstance. If Alonso in 2012 was doing miracles by leading the WDC in a sub-par car, the same can be said about Vettel in 2013.

The season has not ended yet. Vettel, Alonso or any driver doesn't care who leads the championship after 5 rounds. They only care who is on top after 19 rounds.

Edited by TheThirdTenor1, 15 May 2013 - 11:14.

[Oho]

Alonso lost 36 points from Lotus drivers taking him out..

No kidding, so I take it he would somehow have scored 36 for Spa? Then again he was taken out by Sebastian Vettel at Malaysia this year which serves to prove how the Lord works in mysterious ways.

Edited by Oho, 15 May 2013 - 11:26.

[sopa]

The season has not ended yet. Vettel, Alonso or any driver doesn't care who leads the championship after 5 rounds. They only care who is on top after 19 rounds.

That's true, but apparantly a lot of arguments against Vettel are based on what he did or didn't in the early part of 2012. So we can discuss about other part-seasons too.

[RogerS]

That's true, but apparantly a lot of arguments against Vettel are based on what he did or didn't in the early part of 2012. So we can discuss about other part-seasons too.

huh? They are discussing the entire 2012.

[Headspin]

We know.

And he will. With different nick of course after this one gets banned.

[Zava]

I read today, that after the spanish grand prix, Vettel visited the guys at viry-chatillon, to check out how the new engine's looking. I know drivers know jacksh*t about the engines (just by looking at them), but this doesn't smell like a move to ferrari next year, does it?


p.s.: sorry for being on-topic, guys and girls please continue.

[MarileneRiddle]

I read today, that after the spanish grand prix, Vettel visited the guys at viry-chatillon, to check out how the new engine's looking. I know drivers know jacksh*t about the engines (just by looking at them), but this doesn't smell like a move to ferrari next year, does it?


p.s.: sorry for being on-topic, guys and girls please continue.

It was quite cool to see him in the new Renault Twizzy! Does this mean that the 2014 transfer (if he does leave Red Bull) is to Lotus instead of Ferrari as first suggested? Plus it is the usual Sebastian Vettel thing - visit every component of your future car ASAP!

[plumtree]

Yes, 2014 isn't in doubt. Last week, Horner "It is much too early thinking about drivers for next year. Sebastian is clear - and everything else will fall into place towards the end of the summer. There is no pre-conception."

It's about a new contract from 2015 onward. Naturally they would like to finalize it with Vettel before making a decision on the other seat. OTOH, Vettel would prefer to wait and see how 2014 pans out.

Red Bull wants to keep Vettel for 'a long time' (nothing juicy)

[mnmracer]

Red Bull wants to keep Vettel for 'a long time' (nothing juicy)

Nothing juicy because you read it wrong.
The title should say "Red Bull, for mysterious reason, wants to hang on to a so-so driver that could be replaced by half the grid."
How can you not understand that by now?

[Jon83]

Hello again, dear Alo-Vet debating friends.

RogerS - how can you say nobody rated Webber before 2009? You should go back in time and read threads. Webber before getting to a top team (RBR) was rated way higher than Massa before getting to a top team (Ferrari).

And if anyone is blaming Vettel for not dominating in 2012 (winning by mere 3 points), then why is not Alonso dominating in 2013 with the best car? Because I see that Vettel is leading the WDC in a car, which is often worse than Ferrari and Lotus. So these arguments backfire and as you see, much depends on luck and circumstance. If Alonso in 2012 was doing miracles by leading the WDC in a sub-par car, the same can be said about Vettel in 2013.

LOL - I don't think it can. Vettel's current car has won two races (one very comfortably and in normal conditions) out of the first five with two poles.

[plumtree]

Nothing juicy because you read it wrong.
The title should say "Red Bull, for mysterious reason, wants to hang on to a so-so driver that could be replaced by half the grid."
How can you not understand that by now?

They need that so-so driver, if they want to make sure their car will be called a rocket ship year after year.

[apoka]

He was not. In the first half of the season he had just 3 podium finishes. In the second half he had 7.

That's easy to explain: The car was better in the second half. Don't you remember how mixed the first half of the season was?

No one had a car that always capable of winning. But clearly he had a car capable of winning at Monaco and Silverstone yet he was no where close to the victory in those races.

Nowhere near? In Monaco, he was 1.3 seconds down on the winner (Webber). Qualy was bad, but in the race he went from P9 to P4 - in Monaco! In Silverstone, he was 4 seconds away from the winner. That was a race in which Webber was better in qualy and competitive in the race.

It was not only the first part of the season, he was out qualified 9 times by Webber. It's nothing to be embarrassed about, but you would expect better from a driver who some people were calling the "qualifying master, as good as Senna etc." at the end of 2011.

On average, you could expect that and if you look at the years together, then he outqualitfies Webber more often. But I think the point is still valid. After 3 races, it was 0-3 (although the gap in Australia was tiny) and the rest of the season 11-6. Of course, sometimes it was more important to save tyres or chose a race setup.

[apoka]

If he was consistent he would not have trailed Webber until Spa in points, and there would not have been races where he could not even qualify in the top 10 when Webber was on pole and winning Monaco. Race weekends included qualifying and races, not one or the other, its part of being the complete package as a driver. I think Ferrari would be disappointed in Vettel just as they were with Kimi once they see what they can do without Newey support.

He was not trailing Webber until Spa. He was usually in front of Webber (e.g. leading the WDC after 4 races), but fell behind in points, because of the alternator failure in Valencia and the Karthikeyan incident. Vettel had poor reliability in the first part of the season and Webber more in the second part.

[TheThirdTenor1]

That's easy to explain: The car was better in the second half. Don't you remember how mixed the first half of the season was?

Exactly. He only started getting consistent podiums after the Singapore/Japan update which worked a treat and gave Red Bull a significant advantage. Point is, he was not consistent across the whole season.

Nowhere near? In Monaco, he was 1.3 seconds down on the winner (Webber). Qualy was bad, but in the race he went from P9 to P4 - in Monaco! In Silverstone, he was 4 seconds away from the winner. That was a race in which Webber was better in qualy and competitive in the race.

In Monaco he was not even on the podium and his climb in positions was due to strategy and profiting from the first corner accident. In Silverstone, it was Webber and Alonso fighting for the win - Vettel was not in contetion. Point is, Vettel had the car to win these races.

On average, you could expect that and if you look at the years together, then he outqualitfies Webber more often. But I think the point is still valid. After 3 races, it was 0-3 (although the gap in Australia was tiny) and the rest of the season 11-6. Of course, sometimes it was more important to save tyres or chose a race setup.

Australia gap was tiny because Webber did not have KERS for his Q3 lap.

[apoka]

Exactly. He only started getting consistent podiums after the Singapore/Japan update which worked a treat and gave Red Bull a significant advantage. Point is, he was not consistent across the whole season.

You can be consistent and still get more podiums when the car is better.

In Monaco he was not even on the podium and his climb in positions was due to strategy and profiting from the first corner accident. In Silverstone, it was Webber and Alonso fighting for the win - Vettel was not in contetion. Point is, Vettel had the car to win these races.

You said he "nowhere" near in both cases, which is not true (1 and 4 seconds off respectively). Monaco was a strong drive no matter how you twist it.

Of course, Vettel doesn't beat Webber in each qualy and/or race, but that's far away from not being consistent. You could also take the last few 2012 races of Alonso to somehow claim that he is not consistent, although he was (unless your standard is absolute perfection).

Edited by apoka, 15 May 2013 - 15:04.

[apoka]

I read today, that after the spanish grand prix, Vettel visited the guys at viry-chatillon, to check out how the new engine's looking. I know drivers know jacksh*t about the engines (just by looking at them), but this doesn't smell like a move to ferrari next year, does it?

It seems that next year it won't happen. Btw. after his visit Vettel said that he was impressed with the work on the engines and tries to understand them better.

[Buttoneer]

Back on topic please - Vettel to Ferrari in 2014.

[Atreiu]

2014? Won't happen unless Alonso breaks down and throws the title away in spectacular fashion.

[bourbon]

The season has not ended yet. Vettel, Alonso or any driver doesn't care who leads the championship after 5 rounds. They only care who is on top after 19 rounds.

Which is what Ferrari is looking at with respect to it's future drivers. 3 championships on the trot is a remarkable resume in F1 and that capability, among other reasons, is why Ferrari wants Vettel. And he wants to go to Ferrari at some point (as far as we know). So while I think 2014 is out of the question, I see it happening at some point after that - and according to Ferrari, Fernando will leave at that point because they don't want two hens in the coop...

[Owen]

This seems so far off I'm not sure it's worth discussing too much tbh.

[ebc]

Some people on this board seem to think Alonso is some sort of racing God who can do no wrong. This is the same guy who was outpaced and behind in points with Trulli in 04 and beaten by a rookie in 07, who has lost the past three championship deciders he was involved in and was anonymous in each.

How do people know that he has had inferior cars, I remember when Schumacher tested the 1995 Ferrari in the post season he said it was a car he could have won the title in, yet nobody thought it was a competitive car because the drivers underperformed in in, did it ever cross peoples mind that maybe Alonso is not getting the most out of the car, none of us have driven these cars, nobody knows for sure but Alonso is always given the benefit of the doubt. Just think back to 2007 and all the races Hamilton beat Alonso, if that had been another driver as his teammate lets say De la Rosa then people would have said that Alonso was getting the most out of the car, but we know that is not the case because he was behind Hamilton. Other than Hamilton, Alonso has not had a top teammate, and Hamilton was a rookie therefore unproven, so what did Alonso prove by losing to an unproven rookie? Nothing. So why does Vettel have to prove himself by going up against a top teammate, in my opinion Vettel has proven more in an F1 car than Alonso.

Can Alonso come from along way back in points to win a title? Alonso has yet to prove so, Vettel can. Can Alonso win a title fight head to head at the last round of a title race? He has lost 3 out of 3,Vettel has won 2 out of 2. Can Alonso win a race in a championship decider when even 2nd is not an option? Alonso had to win in Brazil in 12 but didn't, Vettel did in 10 in Abu Dhabi. Can Alonso handle hostile environment within a team? Nope, Vettel can. Do Alonso performances get better or worse the closer we come to the end of a season? Worse in 06, 07 and 12 and didn't perform in Abu Dhabi in 2010 either,Vettels get better each time. Can Alonso handle getting outpaced by his teammate? No he can't, Vettel can. Is Alonso loyal to his teams? No, he will even go as far as to blackmail them, Vettel is no angel but Alonso takes the biscuit.

If you look at his titles, as impressive as they were he was very fortunate in both seasons. In 2005 Bridgestones were not competitive, so Schumacher out, Montoya got injured so he was out, Fisichella is Fisichella so he was out that left Kimi and he had horrific reliability all season, three time retiring from the lead and Alonso won each of those races that is a net loss of 36 points to Raikkonen that would have given him the title easily and that is not to mention the 4 10 place grid penalties and 2 punctures he received. His only rival was fighting with both hands tied behind his back, in my opinion Vettel 3 titles are more impressive than Alonso's first. In 2006 he had a big lead that Schumacher whittled away and leveled after China. Then in Japan Schumacher retired from the lead effectively handing the title to Alonso, we did not get the chance to see if Alonso could have handled a last race decider as he was 10 point clear going into the last round and with Schumacher's problem in qualy it was almost impossible for time to turn it around, then he got a puncture.

I like Alonso but it annoys me when he gets so much credit when others deserve just as much. An example is Raikkonens 2008 season, he has never been allowed to forget it, people still bring it up to prove he is not that great and it is one of the reasons he was allowed to leave at the end of 09, but they never mention Alonso 2004 season when Trulli beat him. People say well Massa beat Kimi and Alonso beats Massa so Alonso is much better than Kimi, i'm sorry but it does not work like that, if that logic held true then Button and Kovalainen are both better than Alonso. And many on this board always point out that Vettel has not had a top teammate yet fail to notice that Alonso lost to Hamilton in 2007, it almost as if it is better to get beat by a rookie than never having faced a champion at the age of 25, i don't get it.

I think there are more questions marks around Alonso than Vettel, the only thing Vettel has not done is go up against a world champion in the same team, he has done everything else.

[MarileneRiddle]

ebc, I know you are going to get trashed soon by a lot of others, and there are some points you made that even I might argue with, but still I salute you.

Great post.

[2ms]

Hamilton fans would like to think Alonso is the best so that they can think Hamilton is the best since he beat him in 2007. Alonso fans are large in number and Latin countries are home to a lot F1 fans. Ferrari fans would like to think Alonso is the best so Ferrari looks like they are the most prestigious team in F1 that always has the best drivers. And then, of course, Alonso spends more time aggrandizing himself than all the rest of the drivers in F1 put together.

The number of reasons why Alonso is considered one of the top drivers in F1 are large in number. But, with the exception of two years a long time ago, where he clearly had just as dominant car as any recent "Newey car" 'cept the RB7, few of them are very closely related to actual results. He's been very soundly beaten by Kimi and Vettel since.

Go outside of Europe where things are a little more impartial though, and you'll find Kimi and Vettel are considered the two most talented drivers on the grid.

Anyway, I am almost certain Vettel will go to Ferrari within the next two years. And I'm even more certain that Kimi will go to RBR. Ferrari and RBR know who the best drivers in F1 are.

[bourbon]

Some people on this board seem to think Alonso is some sort of racing God who can do no wrong. This is the same guy who was outpaced and behind in points with Trulli in 04 and beaten by a rookie in 07, who has lost the past three championship deciders he was involved in and was anonymous in each.

How do people know that he has had inferior cars, I remember when Schumacher tested the 1995 Ferrari in the post season he said it was a car he could have won the title in, yet nobody thought it was a competitive car because the drivers underperformed in in, did it ever cross peoples mind that maybe Alonso is not getting the most out of the car, none of us have driven these cars, nobody knows for sure but Alonso is always given the benefit of the doubt. Just think back to 2007 and all the races Hamilton beat Alonso, if that had been another driver as his teammate lets say De la Rosa then people would have said that Alonso was getting the most out of the car, but we know that is not the case because he was behind Hamilton. Other than Hamilton, Alonso has not had a top teammate, and Hamilton was a rookie therefore unproven, so what did Alonso prove by losing to an unproven rookie? Nothing. So why does Vettel have to prove himself by going up against a top teammate, in my opinion Vettel has proven more in an F1 car than Alonso.

Can Alonso come from along way back in points to win a title? Alonso has yet to prove so, Vettel can. Can Alonso win a title fight head to head at the last round of a title race? He has lost 3 out of 3,Vettel has won 2 out of 2. Can Alonso win a race in a championship decider when even 2nd is not an option? Alonso had to win in Brazil in 12 but didn't, Vettel did in 10 in Abu Dhabi. Can Alonso handle hostile environment within a team? Nope, Vettel can. Do Alonso performances get better or worse the closer we come to the end of a season? Worse in 06, 07 and 12 and didn't perform in Abu Dhabi in 2010 either,Vettels get better each time. Can Alonso handle getting outpaced by his teammate? No he can't, Vettel can. Is Alonso loyal to his teams? No, he will even go as far as to blackmail them, Vettel is no angel but Alonso takes the biscuit.

If you look at his titles, as impressive as they were he was very fortunate in both seasons. In 2005 Bridgestones were not competitive, so Schumacher out, Montoya got injured so he was out, Fisichella is Fisichella so he was out that left Kimi and he had horrific reliability all season, three time retiring from the lead and Alonso won each of those races that is a net loss of 36 points to Raikkonen that would have given him the title easily and that is not to mention the 4 10 place grid penalties and 2 punctures he received. His only rival was fighting with both hands tied behind his back, in my opinion Vettel 3 titles are more impressive than Alonso's first. In 2006 he had a big lead that Schumacher whittled away and leveled after China. Then in Japan Schumacher retired from the lead effectively handing the title to Alonso, we did not get the chance to see if Alonso could have handled a last race decider as he was 10 point clear going into the last round and with Schumacher's problem in qualy it was almost impossible for time to turn it around, then he got a puncture.

I like Alonso but it annoys me when he gets so much credit when others deserve just as much. An example is Raikkonens 2008 season, he has never been allowed to forget it, people still bring it up to prove he is not that great and it is one of the reasons he was allowed to leave at the end of 09, but they never mention Alonso 2004 season when Trulli beat him. People say well Massa beat Kimi and Alonso beats Massa so Alonso is much better than Kimi, i'm sorry but it does not work like that, if that logic held true then Button and Kovalainen are both better than Alonso. And many on this board always point out that Vettel has not had a top teammate yet fail to notice that Alonso lost to Hamilton in 2007, it almost as if it is better to get beat by a rookie than never having faced a champion at the age of 25, i don't get it.

I think there are more questions marks around Alonso than Vettel, the only thing Vettel has not done is go up against a world champion in the same team, he has done everything else.

I agree with it all - obviously, I have made some of the same points. But relevant to this thread, the pressure and questions surrounding Alonso are the very reasons why I think a head to head at Ferrari would be a pressure cooker (from Alonso and Ferrari's standpoint) - and why 2014 is out for Vettel's arrival at Ferrari - and maybe more, depending on how long Ferrari decides to remain with Alonso and when Vettel can contractually arrive without overburdening Ferrari's coffers. Ferrari is ruthless - so contracts, good performances, being a multi-champion and even earning championships mean nothing - when they are ready to bring the next guy in - they will do so. When that time comes - Alonso will go and Vettel will arrive.

For my part, Vettel could stay at RBR throughout his career - but by all accounts he wants Ferrari, so if they want him, its a given. The only question is when - and that will be when Ferrari is ready to make a change.

Edited by bourbon, 15 May 2013 - 17:26.

[Kingshark]

2014 is too early and I don't think Vettel will move to Ferrari next year, him and Red Bull love each other too much. However, when Fernando retires at the end of 2016 I want Seb to replace him as #1 at Ferrari, and I might actually start supporting him.

[SpaMaster]

Some people on this board seem to think Alonso is some sort of racing God who can do no wrong. This is the same guy who was outpaced and behind in points with Trulli in 04 and beaten by a rookie in 07, who has lost the past three championship deciders he was involved in and was anonymous in each.

How do people know that he has had inferior cars, I remember when Schumacher tested the 1995 Ferrari in the post season he said it was a car he could have won the title in, yet nobody thought it was a competitive car because the drivers underperformed in in, did it ever cross peoples mind that maybe Alonso is not getting the most out of the car, none of us have driven these cars, nobody knows for sure but Alonso is always given the benefit of the doubt. Just think back to 2007 and all the races Hamilton beat Alonso, if that had been another driver as his teammate lets say De la Rosa then people would have said that Alonso was getting the most out of the car, but we know that is not the case because he was behind Hamilton. Other than Hamilton, Alonso has not had a top teammate, and Hamilton was a rookie therefore unproven, so what did Alonso prove by losing to an unproven rookie? Nothing. So why does Vettel have to prove himself by going up against a top teammate, in my opinion Vettel has proven more in an F1 car than Alonso.

Can Alonso come from along way back in points to win a title? Alonso has yet to prove so, Vettel can. Can Alonso win a title fight head to head at the last round of a title race? He has lost 3 out of 3,Vettel has won 2 out of 2. Can Alonso win a race in a championship decider when even 2nd is not an option? Alonso had to win in Brazil in 12 but didn't, Vettel did in 10 in Abu Dhabi. Can Alonso handle hostile environment within a team? Nope, Vettel can. Do Alonso performances get better or worse the closer we come to the end of a season? Worse in 06, 07 and 12 and didn't perform in Abu Dhabi in 2010 either,Vettels get better each time. Can Alonso handle getting outpaced by his teammate? No he can't, Vettel can. Is Alonso loyal to his teams? No, he will even go as far as to blackmail them, Vettel is no angel but Alonso takes the biscuit.

If you look at his titles, as impressive as they were he was very fortunate in both seasons. In 2005 Bridgestones were not competitive, so Schumacher out, Montoya got injured so he was out, Fisichella is Fisichella so he was out that left Kimi and he had horrific reliability all season, three time retiring from the lead and Alonso won each of those races that is a net loss of 36 points to Raikkonen that would have given him the title easily and that is not to mention the 4 10 place grid penalties and 2 punctures he received. His only rival was fighting with both hands tied behind his back, in my opinion Vettel 3 titles are more impressive than Alonso's first. In 2006 he had a big lead that Schumacher whittled away and leveled after China. Then in Japan Schumacher retired from the lead effectively handing the title to Alonso, we did not get the chance to see if Alonso could have handled a last race decider as he was 10 point clear going into the last round and with Schumacher's problem in qualy it was almost impossible for time to turn it around, then he got a puncture.

I like Alonso but it annoys me when he gets so much credit when others deserve just as much. An example is Raikkonens 2008 season, he has never been allowed to forget it, people still bring it up to prove he is not that great and it is one of the reasons he was allowed to leave at the end of 09, but they never mention Alonso 2004 season when Trulli beat him. People say well Massa beat Kimi and Alonso beats Massa so Alonso is much better than Kimi, i'm sorry but it does not work like that, if that logic held true then Button and Kovalainen are both better than Alonso. And many on this board always point out that Vettel has not had a top teammate yet fail to notice that Alonso lost to Hamilton in 2007, it almost as if it is better to get beat by a rookie than never having faced a champion at the age of 25, i don't get it.

I think there are more questions marks around Alonso than Vettel, the only thing Vettel has not done is go up against a world champion in the same team, he has done everything else.

One of the most impressive posts I have read in any forum!

It is not that Alonso is not a great driver. But there are certainly lot of things that are not in his favour, no post has ever summed that up like this one. It is only to put things in perspective given how much pass he gets in rating. Very COHERENT, that's the word!

[MightyMoose]

This thread seems to have served it's purpose, it's wombled off into driver vs driver. Maybe further information on plans for 2014 will come to light and then we can all try again with on-topic speculation, till that becomes a reality this is closed.