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Vettel off to Ferrari in 2014?


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Poll: Vettel off to Ferrari in 2014? (518 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you think Vettel is heading to Ferrari in 2014?

  1. Yes, he's going (162 votes [31.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.33%

  2. No, he's staying (196 votes [37.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.91%

  3. Not enough information to form an opinion either way (159 votes [30.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.75%

If he did move to Ferrar would it be the right choice?

  1. Yes (175 votes [33.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.85%

  2. No (259 votes [50.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.10%

  3. I don't have enough information to form an opinion either way (83 votes [16.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.05%

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#51 EvanRainer

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 21:07

Ferrari operated Räikkönen and Massa for the 2007 and 2008 seasons and they kept it civil in spite of fighting for the world title. Vettel and Webber don't like each other but they respect the other guy. Alonso and Vettel seem to be bigger egos though, which would be a concern, but with the pay checks the both would get they'd have reason to behave. Also Alonso is well in his 30's now. Different man compared to who he was in 2007.


Yeah but in 2007 Kimi was clear lead driver, and in 2008 Kimi was fading and as good as gone.

Not saying it's completely implausible but to claim that Vettel has actually SIGNED something as well...big stretch.

You can see that by how much one has to reach to find reasons for why Vettel would do this like "because erm...he'll get bored and want a new challenge.." or "go prove himself against Alonso" and stuff like that.

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#52 jeze

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 21:16

Yeah but in 2007 Kimi was clear lead driver, and in 2008 Kimi was fading and as good as gone.

Not saying it's completely implausible but to claim that Vettel has actually SIGNED something as well...big stretch.

You can see that by how much one has to reach to find reasons for why Vettel would do this like "because erm...he'll get bored and want a new challenge.." or "go prove himself against Alonso" and stuff like that.


Kimi was only clear lead driver once Massa was mathematically out of it... after Japan - when in fact Räikkönen had 91 points and Massa 80. Adjusted for Massa being allowed to win in Brazil - which he might have done considering his pole and setting fastest lap while running behind Kimi right at the end there - it'd been Räikkönen 109, Massa 96 over the season.

Following the Turkish race they had three wins each and Massa had 60 points, Räikkönen 59.

Also in 2008 they were extremely well-matched until Massa won in Valencia and Spa with Kimi out of the points twice. Those two races were the difference that year.

When Kimi left Ferrari, Felipe Massa wasn't his friend, but certainly wasn't his enemy either. Good team mates and thanks to Massa's ability to race hard on low fuel he had a window where he looked a top-drawer driver.

Edited by jeze, 12 September 2012 - 21:19.


#53 Creepy

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 21:41

I don't think Vettel will go to Ferrari and I think staying at Red Bull is the right choice.

The change just wouldnt' make sense.

Vettel has in RBR what Alonso has in Ferrari. RBR is happy with Vettel, and Ferrari with Alonso. I don't see sensible to change this.

Besides, this is the 4rd straight year that RBR makes competitive car. Something cannot be said about anyother team in recent times.

Edited by Creepy, 12 September 2012 - 21:41.


#54 BigCHrome

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 21:54

Ferrari obviously wouldn't favor either driver if they were to hire Vettel. It would be a fair competition until one driver is mathematically out of it.

If Alonso wins the WDC in '12 or '13, I think he will be OK with Vettel in the other seat. He'd be ahead of him on WDC's and would love to show the world that he can beat another champion with the same equipment.

For Vettel the benefits are a much improved salary, the prestige that goes with driving for Ferrari and it would also give him a chance to boast that he's beaten a champion with the same equipment.

Really? When? The Senna-Prost disaster? The Alonso-Hamilton Disaster? The current drama?


How were any of those disasters?

Senna and Prost dominated F1 while they were together and won every title possible. It also brought McLaren a lot of publicity.

Alonso and Hamilton would've also won both championships if it wasn't for the dumb spying issue.

There currently isn't any drama between Button and Hamilton either, there's only friction between Hamilton and management over his wage. They will also probably win the WCC and the WDC if the chips fall their way.

Seriously, quit exaggerating everything to fit you agenda.

Edited by BigCHrome, 12 September 2012 - 22:05.


#55 EvanRainer

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 22:27

How were any of those disasters?

Senna and Prost dominated F1 while they were together and won every title possible. It also brought McLaren a lot of publicity.

Alonso and Hamilton would've also won both championships if it wasn't for the dumb spying issue.

There currently isn't any drama between Button and Hamilton either, there's only friction between Hamilton and management over his wage. They will also probably win the WCC and the WDC if the chips fall their way.

Seriously, quit exaggerating everything to fit you agenda.


Yeah I clearly am not the one twisting reality to fit their view.

there's only friction between Hamilton and management over his wage
:rotfl:

#56 Raziel

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 23:34

Vettel will be McLaren driver very soon! McLaren signing Vettel will be a big bang news just like when they did with Alonso back in 2006. They will surprise everyone. Mark my words!  ;)


#57 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 23:38

Vettel will be McLaren driver very soon! McLaren signing Vettel will be a big bang news just like when they did with Alonso back in 2006. They will surprise everyone. Mark my words! ;)


same with HAM driving for Ferrari in 2013. :smoking:

#58 RedOne

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 23:39

Ferrari operated Räikkönen and Massa for the
2007 and 2008 seasons and they kept it civil in spite of fighting for the world title. Vettel and Webber don't like each other but they respect the other guy. Alonso and Vettel seem to be bigger egos though, which would be a concern, but with the pay checks the both would get they'd have reason to behave. Also Alonso is well in his 30's now. Different man compared to who he was in 2007.


Lol He only just turned 31 not too long ago, hardly well into you're 30s.


#59 RealRacing

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 00:44

Read my post about the Alonso vs Massa situation in late 2009 and it'll start to make more sense. Massa was never intended as a #2 and was ruthlessly robbed of a championship he arguably deserved. If Alonso accepted coming to Ferrari to face a driver that beat him on multiple occasions when driving competitive cars in 2007... don't you think that Vettel would accept that challenge? As long as Vettel was given reassurances about equal treatment until he or Fernando was mathematically out of the championship he'd sign if it gave him a pay rise. I can't see Red Bull being willing to raise Vettel's salary too much, since Newey takes up a big portion of their salary budget and Red Bull itself as a company paying for the team to go round, rather than Philip Morris and Santander paying the way for many of Ferrari's external bills.


Yeah, good luck with that. Ask Massa. I think Vettel would never tolerate a HH 2010 and Ferrari would never be willing to guarantee your utopia in bold. What happened between Massa and Kimi happened between Massa and Kimi. What I mean is I believe Kimi did not give a damn and that's why things were relatively smooth with Massa (IMO Massa would never have been able to beat an ON Kimi but that's subject for another thread). Alonso is not Kimi, he's a very political driver who, from what we have seen, can't handle very well a teammate that's close to him. That's why I was talking about 2 possibilities: either Vettel matches or beats FA and he and the team implode or they pull a Massa on Vettel and they alienate him and can't fight for the WCC. So why risk a conflict a-la McLaren 2007 when they can have better chances at the WDC AND the WCC with a No. 2 that's better than Massa but not too close to Alonso?



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#60 forixfan

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 06:05

Sorry btw, I meant to say " How would Ferrari guarantee Vettel equal treatment" not no1 status :)

Personally I don't see this happening. Yes it would be fun and all but it's a pipe dream. In reality having two top drivers doesn't work.

For starters, because the RESOURCES to support two top drivers don't exist within one team.


So the teams have budgets of hundreds of millions of dollars, design and build the cars, fly them around the world all year but don't have the resources to support 2 cars? :confused:
Makes no sense and never been suggested by anyone At Ferrari.
Massa gets equal treatment so would Vettel.


Maybe Perez is not willing to go and play second fiddle to Alonso,


This is not choice its determined by lap time.

Edited by forixfan, 13 September 2012 - 06:25.


#61 forixfan

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 06:13

Yeah, good luck with that. Ask Massa. I think Vettel would never tolerate a HH 2010 and Ferrari would never be willing to guarantee your utopia in bold. What happened between Massa and Kimi happened between Massa and Kimi. What I mean is I believe Kimi did not give a damn and that's why things were relatively smooth with Massa (IMO Massa would never have been able to beat an ON Kimi but that's subject for another thread). Alonso is not Kimi, he's a very political driver who, from what we have seen, can't handle very well a teammate that's close to him. That's why I was talking about 2 possibilities: either Vettel matches or beats FA and he and the team implode or they pull a Massa on Vettel and they alienate him and can't fight for the WCC. So why risk a conflict a-la McLaren 2007 when they can have better chances at the WDC AND the WCC with a No. 2 that's better than Massa but not too close to Alonso?


What about the other option? Alonso beats Vettel fair and square like he has Massa? It seems not be an option in your world for some reason. I am seeing lots of accusations in this thread of number 1 status, unequal treatment at Ferrari, and Its very confusing, because out of 50 races together, Massa has only been asked to move over once, when he was realistically out of word title contention, which is a perfectly legitimate request that is universal through all the teams.

In all other cases he has been free to race Alonso and on a number of occasions fought hard for position with him, and held him up, all of which would not occur if Alonso had any de facto number 1 status or contract clause, which leads to the conclusion that these accusations are just a myth created to attack Ferrari and Alonso. Massa even got more testing miles in 2010!

Vettel would have equal treatment and chances to beat Alonso, just as Massa has, and would not be asked to play support unless he was out of title contention just like Massa. Ferrari proved with Massa, Kimi, and the first half of 2010 that they do not have a de facto number 1 driver policy, and that the order of the drivers is sorted out on track with speed, and nothing else.

Edited by forixfan, 13 September 2012 - 06:19.


#62 Sakae

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:13

What about the other option? Alonso beats Vettel fair and square like he has Massa? It seems not be an option in your world for some reason. I am seeing lots of accusations in this thread of number 1 status, unequal treatment at Ferrari, and Its very confusing, because out of 50 races together, Massa has only been asked to move over once, when he was realistically out of word title contention, which is a perfectly legitimate request that is universal through all the teams.

In all other cases he has been free to race Alonso and on a number of occasions fought hard for position with him, and held him up, all of which would not occur if Alonso had any de facto number 1 status or contract clause, which leads to the conclusion that these accusations are just a myth created to attack Ferrari and Alonso. Massa even got more testing miles in 2010!

Vettel would have equal treatment and chances to beat Alonso, just as Massa has, and would not be asked to play support unless he was out of title contention just like Massa. Ferrari proved with Massa, Kimi, and the first half of 2010 that they do not have a de facto number 1 driver policy, and that the order of the drivers is sorted out on track with speed, and nothing else.

With current status at SF that Alonso is enjoying (as Michael before him), it would be rather difficult to convince rest of the racing world, that a second driver could receive there equal treatment from GETGO. Vettel would have to fight for it with results not guaranteed, and in crucial moment Seb might become domestic to Alonso very quickly. That's Ferrari way. He could reverse the situation through race by race beating Alonso to the punch, but is it realistic expectation? I believe that on the long run Sebastian is a better racer and will end up with more WDC crowns to his credit, but he is not several times better than Alonso. Delta is marginal at the moment, with Seb having greater potential IMO, and further growth requires true equal treatment, to say at least. Alosno is of course not bad, but I think he has peaked, and Seb has yet another yard to go.

#63 forixfan

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:16

With current status at SF that Alonso is enjoying (as Michael before him), it would be rather difficult to convince rest of the racing world, that a second driver could receive there equal treatment from GETGO.



What current status does Alonso have at the moment other than being consistently significantly faster than his team mate and in title contention? :confused:

#64 aditya-now

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:16

I doubt Luca will say to him "Hey Seb, go up against Alonso, it'll shut up your doubters". He doesn't need to prove he can go toe to toe with them, why not twist it to say we can't prove Alo/Ham until they go toe to toe with Vettel? We just accept there will always be a group who will never be convinced.


Fernando is right now the most beloved Ferrari pilot since Gilles Villeneuve (at least for the tifosi and the Italian press) so I wonder if Luca di Montezemolo would disregard this. Certainly not if Alonso becomes WDC in 2012 and is on the way to it 2013 - I think then it will be up to Alonso if Vettel can really join the team for 2014.

#65 maverick69

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:26

I think it's a done deal - just like Kimi and Alonso was a couple of years before.... and Monty et al started making noises about said drivers.

I believe the following has happened (some of this I've been told): Monty has turned around and said that he wants two top drivers in his cars because having such a big difference in relative performances is hurting its WCC efforts and thus the brand - those drivers being Hamilton (Stefano is a big fan) and Vettel (I think that Kubica was in there before his accident). Fred has a veto clause on who his teammate is and outright vetoed Hamilton. However, Vettel was not vetoed because a) Fred only has one veto, or b) he thinks he will tonk Vettel anyways.


#66 EvanRainer

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:28

Fernando is right now the most beloved Ferrari pilot since Gilles Villeneuve (at least for the tifosi and the Italian press) so I wonder if Luca di Montezemolo would disregard this. Certainly not if Alonso becomes WDC in 2012 and is on the way to it 2013 - I think then it will be up to Alonso if Vettel can really join the team for 2014.


Exactly, Ferrari has a good thing with going on right now with Alonso and a team built around him, why would take any risk ruining that?(and they would be stupid to do so imo)

As I said before, the only case where it makes sense is bringing in Vettel because Alonso plans to retire soon after '14.

#67 maverick69

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:35

Fernando is right now the most beloved Ferrari pilot since Gilles Villeneuve (at least for the tifosi and the Italian press) so I wonder if Luca di Montezemolo would disregard this. Certainly not if Alonso becomes WDC in 2012 and is on the way to it 2013 - I think then it will be up to Alonso if Vettel can really join the team for 2014.


They disregarded their most successful driver ever for Raikonnen. And did the same for Alonso over Raikonnen.

So one thing is for sure - there is no room for driver sentiment when it comes to Monty.

#68 aditya-now

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:52

So one thing is for sure - there is no room for driver sentiment when it comes to Monty.


Amazingly so.


#69 Claudiu

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:00

I think getting Vettel is logical from Ferrari's point of view, Alonso at some point will retire and we will need the next best driver out there and that's Vettel.
You cannot just wait for Alonso to retire and than plan the future of the team.

Alonso and Vettel would be a very strong pair and I have no doubt that with the right car and those two drivers Ferrari could very well dominate for a couple of years.

#70 Sakae

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:49

What current status does Alonso have at the moment other than being consistently significantly faster than his team mate and in title contention? :confused:

Yes, situation is static, and seemingly look peaceful, but having taken Vettel on board, static becomes dynamic, Vettel is not Massa, and dawn of war is on. It's hard to say there will be equality. Once Michael had established his supremacy, and surrounded a team around him, it was his Ferrari, even as the other guy had initially an equal chance, but after a few races it was over.

#71 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:03

if Montezelmolo says Perez is too inexperienced for a Ferrari drive, that would also rule out any driver with less than 2 year F1 experience like Hulkenberg or diRest etc.

so what are the remaining options for them?

Massa - free agent
Schumacher - free agent
Raikkonen - valid 2013 contract with Lotus?
Kovalainen - free agent

it'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

Meanwhile Glock is jumping up and down screaming "Am I invisible!"

He has nearly 7 years experience I think...

#72 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:06

Yes, situation is static, and seemingly look peaceful, but having taken Vettel on board, static becomes dynamic, Vettel is not Massa, and dawn of war is on. It's hard to say there will be equality. Once Michael had established his supremacy, and surrounded a team around him, it was his Ferrari, even as the other guy had initially an equal chance, but after a few races it was over.

The other was never top drawer though. (Irvine... seriously top shelf? Nope.)

I'm sure Vettel and Alonso will get along fine. Sometimes one might win, sometimes the other. Or else they might race for P5-P12 if the car is a POS as some Ferraris have been long ago. No team orders. Sharing final Q3 run. Leading driver in the race gets first pick of strategy. Don't give Vettel's latest spec front wing to Alonso without telling Vettel, if Alonso's breaks.;) Don't tell Vettel to turn down his engine, and then tell Vettel's race engineer to say that he must let Alonso past as Raikkonen is getting too close in 3rd place.;) It's quite simple, and the rules and sharing turns must be enforced consistently, unless one is mathematically out of title race.

Even if it is a war... Senna and Prost co-operated (just) for two full season at Ferrari's English rivals. Hamilton and Alonso co-operated for one full season. Mansell and Prost co-operated for one full season. Prost was fired for reasons not related to his competition with Alesi. By this time Ferrari might feel that they will have the titles to show the excellence of their choice.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 13 September 2012 - 12:12.


#73 Sakae

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:13

The other was never top drawer though. (Irvine, Salo... seriously top shelf? Nope.)

I'm sure Vettel and Alonso will get along fine. Sometimes one might win, sometimes the other. Or else they might race for P5-P12 if the car is a POS as some Ferraris have been long ago. No team orders. Sharing final Q3 run. Leading driver in the race gets first pick of strategy. Don't give Vettel's latest spec front wing to Alonso without telling Vettel, if Alonso's breaks.;) It's quite simple, and the rules and sharing turns must be enforced consistently, unless one is mathematically out of title race.

Michael once said - You can't put into a contract clause, that a fast driver has to drive slow in favour of somebody else. The leading position were seen more in tangible issues, like when there was a problem before race, he would have a first go at the T-car, or a spare part. I am not sure of today it is just as much important because of parc ferme, monitoring engines, etc. Hamilton seems to be making an issue of it the other day. I am just not sure whether team orders would go into effect, if Vettel leads, and Alonso in tandem righ behind him.

Edited by Sakae, 13 September 2012 - 12:15.


#74 forixfan

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:22

I am just not sure whether team orders would go into effect, if Vettel leads, and Alonso in tandem righ behind him.


You mean like Australia, Malaysia 2010, China 2011?

#75 Sakae

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:24

I have no idea what it is you are talking about.

Edited by Sakae, 13 September 2012 - 12:24.


#76 forixfan

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:26

I have no idea what it is you are talking about.


You were wondering about team orders, and I gave examples of races when Alonso was directly behind Massa and no team orders were issued.

#77 Sakae

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 13:22

JT used to say that they supported driver's effort when they deemed him to have better chance than his teammmate to finish higher up in WDC. I said earlier the same, that Vettel would have to beat Alonso right from GETGO, because otherwise about six races into a championship it could be over for him as an equal partner. I trust that Alonso and Massa start a season as equal partners for several races, but that is soon over for one racer, if point spread beggins to tilt one way. Vettel, coming to SF, a team where he would partner established driver like Alonso would be in incredible risk, if a car would not "feel right". It was common knowledge among experts, that Ferrari was always a car difficult to drive, and unless you grow into it, you could be in big trouble in a hurry.

#78 SpaMaster

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 15:20

Read my post about the Alonso vs Massa situation in late 2009 and it'll start to make more sense. Massa was never intended as a #2 and was ruthlessly robbed of a championship he arguably deserved. If Alonso accepted coming to Ferrari to face a driver that beat him on multiple occasions when driving competitive cars in 2007... don't you think that Vettel would accept that challenge?

I think Vettel has already answered that question as mentioned in the earlier post.

As long as Vettel was given reassurances about equal treatment until he or Fernando was mathematically out of the championship he'd sign if it gave him a pay rise. I can't see Red Bull being willing to raise Vettel's salary too much, since Newey takes up a big portion of their salary budget and Red Bull itself as a company paying for the team to go round, rather than Philip Morris and Santander paying the way for many of Ferrari's external bills.

I absolutely don't think Red Bull is short of any money to pay Vettel. His basic salary may be less, but his performance bonus is enormous. Ferrari won't be able to steal Vettel from Red Bull because of money

Ferrari operated Räikkönen and Massa for the 2007 and 2008 seasons and they kept it civil in spite of fighting for the world title.

The drivers had a big role in that. Don't think team was the reason.

Vettel and Webber don't like each other but they respect the other guy. Alonso and Vettel seem to be bigger egos though, which would be a concern, but with the pay checks the both would get they'd have reason to behave. Also Alonso is well in his 30's now. Different man compared to who he was in 2007.

Paychecks don't buy behaviour, absolutely not. No proof for the last sentence.

Edited by SpaMaster, 13 September 2012 - 15:24.


#79 kosmos

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 15:24

The only reason to want Vettel as soon as 2014 is to minimize the rivals for the team, now we have Alonso vs Vettel vs Hamilton, if Vettel joins Ferrari it will be Alonso + Vettel vs Hamilton, is a win win situation for the team if they handle it in a smart way.

Edited by kosmos, 13 September 2012 - 15:26.


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#80 RealRacing

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 15:51

What about the other option? Alonso beats Vettel fair and square like he has Massa? It seems not be an option in your world for some reason. I am seeing lots of accusations in this thread of number 1 status, unequal treatment at Ferrari, and Its very confusing, because out of 50 races together, Massa has only been asked to move over once, when he was realistically out of word title contention, which is a perfectly legitimate request that is universal through all the teams.

In all other cases he has been free to race Alonso and on a number of occasions fought hard for position with him, and held him up, all of which would not occur if Alonso had any de facto number 1 status or contract clause, which leads to the conclusion that these accusations are just a myth created to attack Ferrari and Alonso. Massa even got more testing miles in 2010!

Vettel would have equal treatment and chances to beat Alonso, just as Massa has, and would not be asked to play support unless he was out of title contention just like Massa. Ferrari proved with Massa, Kimi, and the first half of 2010 that they do not have a de facto number 1 driver policy, and that the order of the drivers is sorted out on track with speed, and nothing else.


The option was considered and I said I don't believe you could pull a Massa on Vettel. Vettel won't accept what they did to Massa in 2010 because he is a 2 x WDC and because he can win a WDC (like Massa could have) being far behind in the 1st part of the championship. I think Ferrari could offer equal treatment to Vettel but not guarantee that they will allow them to race until he is mathematically out of it. I think this is crucial for a driver of the caliber of Vettel or Hamilton or Kimi and is, in a way, the price to pay if you want to have two of the best drivers in your team. If Ferrari believe they can hire a top driver but not allow him to fight till the end, they are just being unrealistic or arrogant or both.

Having said that, even if there's no No. 1 status in FA's contract or No. 2 on the other driver's, a driver that has been in a team longer and has been relatively successful in it, does have a certain clout, a certain preference which, in the case of a driver like MS or FA, is hard to overcome, even for someone like SV. As said before, FA is a very political driver and, after what happened at McLaren, he has made sure that he is Ferrari's favorite. This would not be the case, for example, with a driver like Kimi, who really does not give a s**t about rallying the team behind him and being beaten by or having to support his teammate. Each situation is different and it just seems to me that Ferrari is not a good place to go right now for a top driver like Vettel or even for a young driver with a lot of promise like Perez.


#81 joshb

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:12

The only reason to want Vettel as soon as 2014 is to minimize the rivals for the team, now we have Alonso vs Vettel vs Hamilton, if Vettel joins Ferrari it will be Alonso + Vettel vs Hamilton, is a win win situation for the team if they handle it in a smart way.


good shout, but could they handle it not to the detriment of the team?

#82 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 19:55

JT used to say that they supported driver's effort when they deemed him to have better chance than his teammmate to finish higher up in WDC. I said earlier the same, that Vettel would have to beat Alonso right from GETGO, because otherwise about six races into a championship it could be over for him as an equal partner. I trust that Alonso and Massa start a season as equal partners for several races, but that is soon over for one racer, if point spread beggins to tilt one way. Vettel, coming to SF, a team where he would partner established driver like Alonso would be in incredible risk, if a car would not "feel right". It was common knowledge among experts, that Ferrari was always a car difficult to drive, and unless you grow into it, you could be in big trouble in a hurry.


Alonso won his first race in a Ferrari, Vettel can be quick from the start as well, after all he will have preseason testing.

#83 bourbon

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 20:33

Ferrari obviously wouldn't favor either driver if they were to hire Vettel. It would be a fair competition until one driver is mathematically out of it.

If Alonso wins the WDC in '12 or '13, I think he will be OK with Vettel in the other seat. He'd be ahead of him on WDC's and would love to show the world that he can beat another champion with the same equipment.


Given that opportunity, he blew it with Hamilton, and then ran away to a sub par team so that he wouldn't have to face the situation any longer - this cannot be overlooked. Whether he believed it unfair or just to difficult to deal with, he failed to stand up to the challenge then. What makes you think he'd welcome Vettel?

Alonso's teammate list is complied of a group of truly sad and pathetic cases in F1 (Hamilton excepted). I don't think any top driver would willingly add their names to that list and so, if a top driver comes along that Ferrari values (i.e., Vettel, Hamilton, Perez, etc), I see Alonso fighting tooth and nail against it.

Not that it is up to Ferrari and/or Alonso. Vettel's last comment on going to Ferrari while Alonso is there were not very encouraging.

#84 jeze

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 22:40

Given that opportunity, he blew it with Hamilton, and then ran away to a sub par team so that he wouldn't have to face the situation any longer - this cannot be overlooked. Whether he believed it unfair or just to difficult to deal with, he failed to stand up to the challenge then. What makes you think he'd welcome Vettel?

Alonso's teammate list is complied of a group of truly sad and pathetic cases in F1 (Hamilton excepted). I don't think any top driver would willingly add their names to that list and so, if a top driver comes along that Ferrari values (i.e., Vettel, Hamilton, Perez, etc), I see Alonso fighting tooth and nail against it.

Not that it is up to Ferrari and/or Alonso. Vettel's last comment on going to Ferrari while Alonso is there were not very encouraging.


Trulli: Frightening qualifier that later ended Ralf's career at Toyota.
Fisichella: Blew Button and Massa away as team mates and was a Grand Prix winner for two teams.
Piquet: Finished on F1 podium and ran Hamilton close in GP2.
Grosjean: Was always frightenly quick but also dangerously erratic. Has blown Kimi away for qualifying pace this season.
Massa: 22 points more than Räikkönen in 2008, could've been champion that year and ran the top close in 2007 too.

All of those have had their reputations destroyed (except perhaps Trulli) by Alonso.

#85 RealRacing

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 23:31

Trulli: Frightening qualifier that later ended Ralf's career at Toyota.
Fisichella: Blew Button and Massa away as team mates and was a Grand Prix winner for two teams.
Piquet: Finished on F1 podium and ran Hamilton close in GP2.
Grosjean: Was always frightenly quick but also dangerously erratic. Has blown Kimi away for qualifying pace this season.
Massa: 22 points more than Räikkönen in 2008, could've been champion that year and ran the top close in 2007 too.

All of those have had their reputations destroyed (except perhaps Trulli) by Alonso.


When someone mentions Piquet as a difficult teammate, it means they are really trying...

#86 RedOne

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 23:53

When someone mentions Piquet as a difficult teammate, it means they are really trying...


Same would have been said about Grosjean until he was given another chance, look at him now.

#87 Afterburner

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 00:13

Alonso's teammate list is complied of a group of truly sad and pathetic cases in F1 (Hamilton excepted). I don't think any top driver would willingly add their names to that list and so, if a top driver comes along that Ferrari values (i.e., Vettel, Hamilton, Perez, etc), I see Alonso fighting tooth and nail against it.

A very strong case could be made in the same fashion on the topic of Vettel's teammates thus far.

#88 RealRacing

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 00:39

Same would have been said about Grosjean until he was given another chance, look at him now.


If you mean that SG is better now than his first stint in F1 (strange coming from someone who wants him banned for life for taking Alonso out), then yeah, that may be true. However, the post was talking, and the point was, about Piquet when he was teamed with FA. He was crap then and that was the point.

#89 Sakae

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 04:37

This thread is now having characteristics of the one we were enduring not too long ago - Kubica to Ferrari. It's nice to speculate, even if basis for our speculation is "WHAT IF" assumption, but reality is, that LDM is a passionate man, and seeing him the other day in paddock in view of a camera, he could be pretty animated too. This man still has a lot of fire in him, he wants to win, and everything else seems subservient to that desire. I have no doubt he will do everything possible, and much of impossible, to improve Ferrari's winning chances, and if it takes to get Vettel, or anyone else, he will get him. Alonso is safe - only for as long as he is performing, but not an iota more.

#90 bourbon

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 04:45

Trulli: Frightening qualifier that later ended Ralf's career at Toyota.
Fisichella: Blew Button and Massa away as team mates and was a Grand Prix winner for two teams.
Piquet: Finished on F1 podium and ran Hamilton close in GP2.
Grosjean: Was always frightenly quick but also dangerously erratic. Has blown Kimi away for qualifying pace this season.
Massa: 22 points more than Räikkönen in 2008, could've been champion that year and ran the top close in 2007 too.

All of those have had their reputations destroyed (except perhaps Trulli) by Alonso.


Unfortunately in some cases, it ruined Alonso's reputation right along with his teammates (for some). The point is, Vettel isn't going to want to join that illustrious list. Vettel would join the other list though - the one that has only Hamilton's name on it at the moment.

A very strong case could be made in the same fashion on the topic of Vettel's teammates thus far.


I would hardly call Mark Webber a sad case. He led the championship in 2010 for most of the season and he is still in it this year too. It is a little unfair to cite teammates at the driver mill, a.k.a. STRF. Back then they were changing drivers mid-go (that is how Vettel arrived if you recall) and firing at will. That had nothing at all to do with Vettel and/or making him look good. He'd of been stuffed out of F1 with the others if he hadn't performed.

Edited by bourbon, 14 September 2012 - 04:52.


#91 forixfan

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 06:06

The option was considered and I said I don't believe you could pull a Massa on Vettel. Vettel won't accept what they did to Massa in 2010 because he is a 2 x WDC and because he can win a WDC (like Massa could have) being far behind in the 1st part of the championship. I think Ferrari could offer equal treatment to Vettel but not guarantee that they will allow them to race until he is mathematically out of it. I think this is crucial for a driver of the caliber of Vettel or Hamilton or Kimi and is, in a way, the price to pay if you want to have two of the best drivers in your team. If Ferrari believe they can hire a top driver but not allow him to fight till the end, they are just being unrealistic or arrogant or both.


What happened to Massa happened for a reason because he was no longer a championship contender, mathematical or not, because he was so slow, so the only way to not allow this to happen, is to match Alonso and remain contention, so the guarantee will come from Vettel not Ferrari. Does anyone really think what happened to Massa was not justified? If so then it would be justified if it happened to Vettel if he was in the same position.

As said before, FA is a very political driver and, after what happened at McLaren, he has made sure that he is Ferrari's favorite.


And how did he make sure he was Ferrari's favourite? By stamping his foot, or earning it through complete domination of his team mate, something which Kimi could not do.

#92 Jon83

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:45

It merely shows how highly Seb Vettel is valued in the paddock
Long term deal with Red Bull, Montezemolo openly comparing him to Schumacher and naming him for a Ferrari seat
Last year Ross Brawn's complimentary words

the kid has a choice of top teams to drive for
So no hurry we'll see


He's a brilliant driver, despite what some of the experts on here would have you believe.

#93 bub

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:47

Could see Vettel being Alonso's replacement, not his team mate.

#94 sailor

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:51

He's a brilliant driver, despite what some of the experts on here would have you believe.


He is a good driver but I still think that he is a red herring for Ferrari.

they are using his name to not fill the seat to avoid SP - who has beaten the Ferrari's in a Sauber (for Fck sake) . There s absolutely no reason to not bag him now.

That he has little experience actually is better - meaning he will become even better as he matures. I m quite sure Alonso is acting as Massa's inside man in the deals .

SD and LM are simpletons who dont know whats going on.

#95 Steve99

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:55

That he has little experience actually is better -


Are you talking about Sebastian Vettel? Little experience? he's driven in about a hundred Grands Prix, won a good fifth of them, and already has two titles to his name. How is that 'little experience'?

#96 bub

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:56

Are you talking about Sebastian Vettel? Little experience? he's driven in about a hundred Grands Prix, won a good fifth of them, and already has two titles to his name. How is that 'little experience'?


SP - Sergio Perez.

#97 Steve99

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 13:01

SP - Sergio Perez.


That's OK then! I read it wrong. Ferrari won't take him yet.

#98 SpaMaster

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 15:13

Trulli: Frightening qualifier that later ended Ralf's career at Toyota.
Fisichella: Blew Button and Massa away as team mates and was a Grand Prix winner for two teams.
Piquet: Finished on F1 podium and ran Hamilton close in GP2.
Grosjean: Was always frightenly quick but also dangerously erratic. Has blown Kimi away for qualifying pace this season.
Massa: 22 points more than Räikkönen in 2008, could've been champion that year and ran the top close in 2007 too.

All of those have had their reputations destroyed (except perhaps Trulli) by Alonso.

This is getting a bit ridiculous. Alonso lost to Trulli in one of those seasons. Wrt Ralf and Trulli, it was more to do with Ralf waning away as an F1 driver rather than Trulli demolishing the career of 2001/2002 Ralf.
Fisichella: Weren't both Button and Massa in their first seasons? Or, are you saying Fisichella was beating the Button we saw in 2009-2012?
Piquet: Finished on a F1 podium and fought Hamilton in GP2? Come on now, that is really desperate.
Grosjean: Was frighteningly quick back then? Must have missed that. Blown washing in qualifying pace this year? So what, race is what counts. Even in GPs where they both finished and Grosjean was faster than Kimi in qualy, Kimi was still better in races and overall finished ahead. That's all that matters. He was ahead in qualy, practice, pit-stops, out-laps, etc. don't matter. Kimi was better when all said and done.
Massa: I certainly don't think Alonso is adding 1.5 s to the car when Massa is loitering at P15 and Alonso fighting for pole. When a driver is losing to inferior cars, it is a case of under-performance rather than saying his teammate is making all the difference.

Trulli's reputation was not destroyed. Piquet and Grosjean did not have any reasonable reputation to begin. Only 2 of them. Hardly the destroyer. bourbon meant destruction by team politics, undermining, etc.

Edited by SpaMaster, 14 September 2012 - 15:18.


#99 Afterburner

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 16:49

I would hardly call Mark Webber a sad case. He led the championship in 2010 for most of the season and he is still in it this year too. It is a little unfair to cite teammates at the driver mill, a.k.a. STRF. Back then they were changing drivers mid-go (that is how Vettel arrived if you recall) and firing at will. That had nothing at all to do with Vettel and/or making him look good. He'd of been stuffed out of F1 with the others if he hadn't performed.

I was merely pointing out that people who are perceived to live live in glass houses probably shouldn't throw stones. A good percentage of this forum wouldn't consider Vettel's teammate record to be any better than Alonso's.

And generally, when anyone resorts to teammate comparisons to justify a driver's skill (or apparent lack thereof), I consider them to have lost the argument.

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#100 Jimisgod

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 17:07

I guess that means Alonso to RBR in 2014 then. :yawnface: