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Vettel off to Ferrari in 2014?


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Poll: Vettel off to Ferrari in 2014? (518 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you think Vettel is heading to Ferrari in 2014?

  1. Yes, he's going (162 votes [31.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.33%

  2. No, he's staying (196 votes [37.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.91%

  3. Not enough information to form an opinion either way (159 votes [30.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.75%

If he did move to Ferrar would it be the right choice?

  1. Yes (175 votes [33.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.85%

  2. No (259 votes [50.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.10%

  3. I don't have enough information to form an opinion either way (83 votes [16.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.05%

Vote

#951 boldhakka

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 16:50

I don't agree with it, and apparently neither do you, but for some reason you're argueing with me.

Go argue with the guy whose standard puts the Ferrari at all but the same speed as the Red Bull.


Yep, KnucklesAgain is barking up the wrong tree just to beat a dead horse some more.

Anyway.

So Vettel had been ruled out until 2016 basically. If he continues at the pace he's been learning at currently, he will be really formidable by then.

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#952 kosmos

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 17:11

Yep, KnucklesAgain is barking up the wrong tree just to beat a dead horse some more.

Anyway.

So Vettel had been ruled out until 2016 basically. If he continues at the pace he's been learning at currently, he will be really formidable by then.


2017.

#953 Watkins74

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 19:05

Have you also noticed this?
F1 is always a team game when it comes to car unreliability or pit stops, but never when it comes to speed...

:up: Great post.

#954 Muz Bee

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 20:12

So after a lengthy discussion (24 pages!) including speculating on relative abilities of drivers, cars, reliability etc there doesn't seem to be any concensus other than RedBull is a pretty fast car. Some feel that 2 DNFs in 19 GPs is terrible reliability, by any standards that is at least reasonable.

My question and it has been asked before addresses the topic. Why would Vettel want to move? He has the best car. The designer is arguably the best in F1 history albeit in an era with little room for revolution. The team appears to be happy, Webber rumblings from time to time notwithstanding. On the other hand Ferrari are a difficult political beast to tame and you have Alonso seated on the top step and well established who is a manipulator not quite at the level of Piquet but manipulative all the same. The car in Alonso's hands at least has been reliable but it is probably not in the top 3 fastest cars.

WHY WOULD HE? I can think of many reasons why he wouldn't and shouldn't.

Lewis moved from an almost winning team to an also-ran team for some strange reason, he grew up in a racing vacuum and emerged from his bubble like an alien - fast and fragile. His personality and decision making, his at times lack of rationality is breathtaking. Whether his move from a top 2 team to a team about P7 will be a good call remains to be seen but it looks like a daft one.

#955 Sakae

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 20:26

Sometimes you don't need to rationalize every decision you make. He might (secretly?) want to move due to perhaps his desire to enter into, and be associated with red team's history. Everything else are subtopics of lesser importance. But, I am digressing in my specualtion...

#956 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 14:32

Woah, that was a long read. :rolleyes:

I agree with Sakae - Ferrari is a famous enough brand that most drivers want a race seat there. Unless they have dropped into the midfield by 2017, I dare say Sebastian will find his way there.

And it is also an interesting point that Ferrari has stagnated in its development recently. I think the loss of Schumacher in 2006 hit Ferrari's development the hardest, but from 2007-2008 Kimi and Massa seemed to be holding on quite well. It was only after 2009 that they seemed to be unable to develop a front racing car. Now I am probably giving too much credit to Sebastian, but I think when he moves to Ferrari, the development should pick right up again. After all, isn't he famous for staying with the mechanics and studying all the technical aspects of the car? Sure, Ferrari may not have Newey's genius, but they never needed it before. I think with the right feedback (and maybe a few tricks from Red Bull that the driver picked up) they could be a real force from 2017 onwards. If that is the case, Sebastian domination may be a frightening prospect (to some) indeed.

Of course there are those that believe drivers do nothing but just drive the car on track (and the speed is all due to the car and not the driver). In that case, then Red Bull will be onto 10 plus WCCs soon.

#957 Atreiu

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 15:11

If you ask me, Toro Rosso wanting to jump to Renault means more than sharing data and building synergy. It could very likely mean they already know Ferrari is behind Renault in regard to the 2014 powerplants and don't want their effort to be more compettive squandered by a subpar engine. And if they know that, the entire Reb Bull operaton knows it, including Vettel. And I guess he is not interested in jumping to Ferrari at the cost of letting others run away with wins and titles.

Conjecture, sure, but makes sense to me.

#958 pRy

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:53

Mateschitz appears to have confirmed that Vettel could join Ferrari whenever he wants, regardless of any current Redbull contract he may be in:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105943

I suspect Vettel would give them enough notice to find another driver to replace him but it's still a huge amount of freedom for him and would suggest Alonso deciding to leave Ferrari would automatically trigger Vettel replacing him regardless of any Redbull deal he may be in.

Edited by pRy, 11 March 2013 - 11:55.


#959 fabr68

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:05

Mateschitz appears to have confirmed that Vettel could join Ferrari whenever he wants, regardless of any current Redbull contract he may be in:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105943

I suspect Vettel would give them enough notice to find another driver to replace him but it's still a huge amount of freedom for him and would suggest Alonso deciding to leave Ferrari would automatically trigger Vettel replacing him regardless of any Redbull deal he may be in.


I doubt that is happening in the next couple of years.

Why is Red Bull giving up on Vettel all of the sudden? Did they just find out their car is crap or something? :lol:

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#960 H2H

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:11

Well Didi is indeed calling the shots when it comes to that sort of decision and if he says so it is quite likely that Seb could switch teams despite having a contract. In this case it is mostly a question of mutal trust and it seems there is a vast amount between both. So if Ferrari offers a fair and an attractive alternative and if Seb wants to leave RBR he could go there. So Seb is pretty much in a perfect spot despite or perhaps due to having no manager and taking care of his business himself...

Of course some guys are just missing the point, as usually I might add.

Edited by H2H, 11 March 2013 - 12:12.


#961 pRy

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:19

H2H: Yes I think it's got a lot to do with respect. They will keep renewing his contract but if he went to them and explained he wanted a new challenge and wanted to leave, they wouldn't force him to stay. Which makes sense really.

I wonder how tight the Newey contract is however. :)

#962 rasul

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:21

This thread is my favorite thread on this forum. :D It just keeps going and going.

Mateschitz's words are quite curious, though. Does he know something we don't? What happened to the "iron clad" contract?

Edited by rasul, 11 March 2013 - 12:22.


#963 H2H

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:31


I still remember this view from Bernie:

(cut that quote short not to bring another WDC into that debate)

BE: Well, the first thing is that I don’t like that some of the drivers are completely under the thumb of their teams and sponsors. With Sebastian it is different. He is still his own master, which is obviously also because Red Bull and Didi Mateschitz allow it…
SV: That’s true.


While Didi is most certainly no angel he has a proven record of dealing on a hand-shake basis with friends and partners he deeply trusts. For example Franz Rauch did kick-start Red Bulls production on that base with Didi on that base in 1987 - and according to insider there is still no written contract between Rauch and RB.

So if you look at the context Didi's latest words fit well.

#964 Sakae

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 16:56

I still remember this view from Bernie:

(cut that quote short not to bring another WDC into that debate)



While Didi is most certainly no angel he has a proven record of dealing on a hand-shake basis with friends and partners he deeply trusts. For example Franz Rauch did kick-start Red Bulls production on that base with Didi on that base in 1987 - and according to insider there is still no written contract between Rauch and RB.

So if you look at the context Didi's latest words fit well.

Sometimes handshake with people whom you trust works well. I went to Japan on a handshake after ten minutes talk with an espresso in support. Cashier’s bill was the sole document as evidence of that encounter, but at the end it was OK.

Edited by Sakae, 11 March 2013 - 16:57.


#965 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 00:12

So Seb is pretty much in a perfect spot despite or perhaps due to having no manager and taking care of his business himself...


I agree on this. Vettel's having a stress free environment at RB, that employs Newey, so why would he even consider going to a team catered for Alonso, with an ongoing reorganisation problem? Money? It seems that is of Sebs least concerns. I think one of Vettels weapons is just staying put with Mateschitz. No distractions, just focus on racing.


#966 fabr68

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 01:07

Don't know if this is supposed to be a compliment to Vettel.

Red Bull's owner is kind of pointing him to the door and tell him to do what he wants.

#967 eronrules

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 01:23

it's pointless to hold on to a driver once he makes up his mind to move out. However, dietrich knows the position of his team. he knows that vettel isn't foolish enough to leave such a well organized team. with LH it was different, MClaren made life harder for him. but in RBR, the situation is in favor of vettel and will remain so for foreseeable future. so i think, it's just talk for talk's sake.

also, alonso won't tolerate him and he wont go as long as alonso is in the team

so take it with a RB can worth of salt.

#968 oetzi

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 01:29

Sometimes handshake with people whom you trust works well. I went to Japan on a handshake after ten minutes talk with an espresso in support. Cashier’s bill was the sole document as evidence of that encounter, but at the end it was OK.

I've had things like that go well, and some not so well :)

I think the natural gravity of Ferrari will eventually suck in Vettel. Then again, I thought the same about Hamilton, but marketing swirl and another big name seem to have put that on hold (permanently?)

#969 Lulabaloo

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 01:36

Don't know if this is supposed to be a compliment to Vettel.

Red Bull's owner is kind of pointing him to the door and tell him to do what he wants.


Agree with you there. It looks like he's loosing his patience. Vettel hasn't accomplished much in the last 3 years.

Edited by Lulabaloo, 12 March 2013 - 01:37.


#970 ViMaMo

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 01:46

I doubt that is happening in the next couple of years.

Why is Red Bull giving up on Vettel all of the sudden? Did they just find out their car is crap or something? :lol:


Vettel might be after a bigger salary. After all he is the double world champion, deserves more.


#971 fabr68

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 01:56

Vettel might be after a bigger salary. After all he is the double world champion, deserves more.


Sure but shouldn't Red Bull pay for that higher salary? Vettel deserves it and Red Bull is no Marussia. Red Bull has arguably one of the largest budgets in F1.

Quite strange to have a boss say that it is fine with him if his best employee leaves.

Have any other team principal of the grid saying his no. 1 driver is free to go and it will certainly be frowned upon and seen as a virtual kick out of the door. Kind of like saying well, we got the best car here, feel free to go whenever you want.

#972 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:21

Sure but shouldn't Red Bull pay for that higher salary? Vettel deserves it and Red Bull is no Marussia. Red Bull has arguably one of the largest budgets in F1.

Quite strange to have a boss say that it is fine with him if his best employee leaves.

Have any other team principal of the grid saying his no. 1 driver is free to go and it will certainly be frowned upon and seen as a virtual kick out of the door. Kind of like saying well, we got the best car here, feel free to go whenever you want.




Mateschitz is just taking a position, telling Vettel that he will not get into a bidding war with Ferrari. He is a shrewd operator.

#973 lbennie

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:17

Mateschitz is just taking a position, telling Vettel that he will not get into a bidding war with Ferrari. He is a shrewd operator.


Trust me, if Mateschitz wants to send any message to vettel, he will do it in person, not through the media, they are very close friends.

Just a bunch of quotes taken out of context, that is all.



#974 jstrains

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:19

Journo: Are you sure Alonso will stay if he loses again?

LDM: "His contract runs until the end of 2015 and he'll respect it. I was always being asked the same question with every World Championship we won when Schumacher was here... Alonso knows he'll have to win with us and we want to win with him. He was right to skip the Jerez tests and prepare himself to perfection. Now he's on top form, ready for the green light. Here we go..."

http://english.gazze...426889017.shtml

Edited by jstrains, 12 March 2013 - 06:18.


#975 rasul

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 05:44

Don't know if this is supposed to be a compliment to Vettel.

Red Bull's owner is kind of pointing him to the door and tell him to do what he wants.

I don't think so. To me, it looks like Vettel was honest with RBR's owner and told him that he wants to drive for Ferrari and that one day he would leave. Mateschitz is a proud man, and since he knows it's something unavoidable, he's trying to save his face. Still, I don't think it'll happen very soon.

Are you sure Alonso will stay if he loses again?

LDM: "His contract runs until the end of 2015 and he'll respect it.
http://english.gazze...426889017.shtml


2015? I thought Alonso's contract was until 2016 or even 2017.

Edited by rasul, 12 March 2013 - 05:45.


#976 Sakae

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:15

Sure but shouldn't Red Bull pay for that higher salary? Vettel deserves it and Red Bull is no Marussia. Red Bull has arguably one of the largest budgets in F1.

Quite strange to have a boss say that it is fine with him if his best employee leaves.

Have any other team principal of the grid saying his no. 1 driver is free to go and it will certainly be frowned upon and seen as a virtual kick out of the door. Kind of like saying well, we got the best car here, feel free to go whenever you want.

Roger Penske once said (paraphrasing, and I am assuming you know who he is), if a driver decides to leave, you (as an owner) cannot do anything about it, for there are no good solutions, but let him go.

Edited by Sakae, 12 March 2013 - 06:17.


#977 kedia990

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:27

2015? I thought Alonso's contract was until 2016 or even 2017.


2016. http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/13452839

#978 rasul

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:34

2016. http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/13452839


Strange. LDM probably knows better, though.

#979 apoka

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:35

Didi (and many other Austrians) are very straight, so you can/should not read too much between the lines. He really means what he says: If Vettel has an attractive Ferrari offer and has made up his mind that wants to go there, they will let him go. It does not mean that they don't want to keep Vettel. In fact, they will continue to try giving him and Mark the best environment for success and they will also pay him a nice salary. They just would not force him to stay when it is clear he does not want to.


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#980 Sakae

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:39

Didi (and many other Austrians) are very straight, so you can/should not read too much between the lines. He really means what he says: If Vettel has an attractive Ferrari offer and has made up his mind that wants to go there, they will let him go. It does not mean that they don't want to keep Vettel. In fact, they will continue to try giving him and Mark the best environment for success and they will also pay him a nice salary. They just would not force him to stay when it is clear he does not want to.

That's my interpretation of his comment as well.

#981 ViMaMo

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:49

Sure but shouldn't Red Bull pay for that higher salary? Vettel deserves it and Red Bull is no Marussia. Red Bull has arguably one of the largest budgets in F1.

Quite strange to have a boss say that it is fine with him if his best employee leaves.

Have any other team principal of the grid saying his no. 1 driver is free to go and it will certainly be frowned upon and seen as a virtual kick out of the door. Kind of like saying well, we got the best car here, feel free to go whenever you want.


Maybe they operate like Williams used to. They can until the technical team fails.

#982 Kelateboy

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:51

Vettel might be after a bigger salary. After all he is the double triple world champion, deserves more.

Fixed that for you. :)

#983 sprice

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 21:55

Ferrari have been conspicuous by their absence in commenting on Vettel not following team orders, and Domenicali's comments here are extremely positive....

Told that he once hinted that Alonso is better than F1's reigning world champion, Domenicali insisted: "I have never said that.

"You know that I think very, very, very highly of Sebastian. I take my hat off to him.

"Even thought his critics say he had the best car and most of the luck, you only need to look at his statistics. His successes are simply facts," the Italian said.

Domenicali even suggested that Alonso and Vettel could co-exist at Ferrari, "If both drivers are smart and the team manages the situation with clear rules".
"Never say never," he concluded.


http://www.motorspor...ssa-and-vettel/

#984 rasul

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 22:12

Ferrari have been conspicuous by their absence in commenting on Vettel not following team orders, and Domenicali's comments here are extremely positive....


http://www.motorspor...ssa-and-vettel/

He actually sort of defended Vettel:

Nonetheless, Domenicali’s criticism of Vettel – for ignoring his Red Bull bosses – was muted.“The fact is,” said the Italian, “Sebastian always brings out the maximum from his car, in a way that Mark (Webber) cannot always do.”


That would have been a perfect opportunity to criticize Vettel and put some pressure on him, but he did the exact opposite. Makes me wonder.

#985 2ms

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 22:41

Domenicali is smart enough not to do anything that would reduce chances of getting Vettel to leave RBR and come to Ferrari.

#986 fabr68

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 23:00

He actually sort of defended Vettel:

That would have been a perfect opportunity to criticize Vettel and put some pressure on him, but he did the exact opposite. Makes me wonder.


I think Ferrari are just honest and accept the fact that Team Orders are part of the sport.

I bet Ferrari is delighted to see Mercedes and Red Bull doing at the second race, what they were crucified for doing at the end of a season.

#987 rasul

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 23:12

I think Ferrari are just honest and accept the fact that Team Orders are part of the sport.

I bet Ferrari is delighted to see Mercedes and Red Bull doing at the second race, what they were crucified for doing at the end of a season.


Yes, he's obviously finding the whole thing amusing, but that's not the point. Vettel is criticised for disobeying team orders, not for using them to his advantage. So it really is a perfect opportunity to criticize Vettel, but instead of doing it, Stefano praises Vettel, basically saying that he's the better driver and that is all that matters. Curious.

#988 weareracing

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 23:15

On the other hand a driver that disobeys team orders is of no use to Ferrari.
The Team and Constructors Trophy comes 1st, any ego centred individual will NOT be welcomed into the Ferrari fold.
Malaysia was 7 points won for Sebastian but a lifetime to regret his boyish testosterone.
Don't get me wrong, I still think he will rewrite the Schumacher record books and his boyish charm hides a personna more dedicated to winning that equals Ayrton's.
AND he has consummate skill.
Who cares about who came 2nd?
2014/15 will be the tipping point that defines Sebastian, 2013 will be 4 in a row :smoking:

#989 reggie

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 00:42

As if Vettel would be interested in going to Ferrari with a far inferior car against a far superior driver to Webber. Will never happen , unless Newey loses his talent over night. Vettel is not interested in real challenges.

#990 RealRacing

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 00:49

The Team and Constructors Trophy comes 1st, any ego centred individual will NOT be welcomed into the Ferrari fold.


You mean because a samurai is not considered an individual?



#991 Kyo

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:34

Yes, he's obviously finding the whole thing amusing, but that's not the point. Vettel is criticised for disobeying team orders, not for using them to his advantage. So it really is a perfect opportunity to criticize Vettel, but instead of doing it, Stefano praises Vettel, basically saying that he's the better driver and that is all that matters. Curious.


I believe you have a point or he is just expressing what would happen if it were in Ferrari. I was really surprised by the team order in RBR since was the first time I ever saw a team not trying to put their best shot at the title in 1st place. Ferrari for example would never order Alonso to stay behind Massa at this stage of the championship.

#992 Rybo

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:25

You mean because a samurai is not considered an individual?


In fairness Fernando is Ferrari's best chance for success at this moment, but there will be a time where he has to step aside.

#993 bourbon

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:30

... Ferrari for example would never order Alonso to stay behind Massa at this stage of the championship.


And that wraps it all up in a nutshell. :up:



#994 fabr68

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:55

I believe you have a point or he is just expressing what would happen if it were in Ferrari. I was really surprised by the team order in RBR since was the first time I ever saw a team not trying to put their best shot at the title in 1st place. Ferrari for example would never order Alonso to stay behind Massa at this stage of the championship.


Dont be so sure. Alonso pulled back and finished behind Massa a couple of races at the beginning of 2010.

Teams having pre-race agreements among drivers to protect a 1-2 finish is not uncomon in F1

What is frowned upon is for drivers to break such agreements and ignore the team boss commands. I dont see the Tifosi or LM tolerating such thing at Ferrari.

#995 joshb

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:32

As if Vettel would be interested in going to Ferrari with a far inferior car against a far superior driver to Webber. Will never happen , unless Newey loses his talent over night. Vettel is not interested in real challenges.


Weird you say that, he's taking on the monumental challenge of re-writing the record books

#996 mnmracer

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:34

Dont be so sure. Alonso pulled back and finished behind Massa a couple of races at the beginning of 2010.

Teams having pre-race agreements among drivers to protect a 1-2 finish is not uncomon in F1

What is frowned upon is for drivers to break such agreements and ignore the team boss commands. I dont see the Tifosi or LM tolerating such thing at Ferrari.

There was no pre-race agreement:

Red Bull tell me that team orders in Malaysia was not agreed pre-race but was an ad hoc decision after the final stop. #wristslapped



#997 fabr68

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:37

There was no pre-race agreement:


Still. I dont think that drivers ignoring Ferrari orders would be a good fit and it is destined to end in tears.

#998 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:40

He actually sort of defended Vettel:


That would have been a perfect opportunity to criticize Vettel and put some pressure on him, but he did the exact opposite. Makes me wonder.

Domenicali isn't one to dabble in the mindgames like many others do, but yea, his defense of Vettel is a bit curious.

Edited by Seanspeed, 11 April 2013 - 12:41.


#999 2ms

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:43

Still. I dont think that drivers ignoring Ferrari orders would be a good fit and it is destined to end in tears.


Complete non-issue. Ferrari would never order their top driver to finish second in the second race of the season. They have a clear 1st driver, 2nd driver policy, not the equal policy like RBR or McL where it is in the realm of possibility of asking someone like Vettel to finish behind other driver.

In fact, drivers like Vettel are the type that thrive the most in Ferrari style system.

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#1000 Seanspeed

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  • 14,659 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:45

They have a clear 1st driver, 2nd driver policy

No they dont. If they did, they could have just told Massa on the radio to move over in Australia.