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Vettel off to Ferrari in 2014?


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Poll: Vettel off to Ferrari in 2014? (518 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you think Vettel is heading to Ferrari in 2014?

  1. Yes, he's going (162 votes [31.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.33%

  2. No, he's staying (196 votes [37.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.91%

  3. Not enough information to form an opinion either way (159 votes [30.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.75%

If he did move to Ferrar would it be the right choice?

  1. Yes (175 votes [33.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.85%

  2. No (259 votes [50.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.10%

  3. I don't have enough information to form an opinion either way (83 votes [16.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.05%

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#101 RealRacing

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 17:09

What happened to Massa happened for a reason because he was no longer a championship contender, mathematical or not, because he was so slow, so the only way to not allow this to happen, is to match Alonso and remain contention, so the guarantee will come from Vettel not Ferrari. Does anyone really think what happened to Massa was not justified? If so then it would be justified if it happened to Vettel if he was in the same position.



And how did he make sure he was Ferrari's favourite? By stamping his foot, or earning it through complete domination of his team mate, something which Kimi could not do.


That's precisely the point. For you and Ferrari Massa was not a contender anymore in 2010. For Massa (or even more Vettel) that point comes only when they are mathematically out of it. A top driver coming to a new team, as Vettel to Ferrari, would be expected to struggle initially with car adaptation issues, new team, etc. If they don't take this into account and just support Alonso in a hypothetical second part of 2014 because Vettel is subjectively out of it, be sure Vettel will not take it. Furthermore, I suspect that Ferrari, had the case been reversed in 2010, would not have done the same to Alonso because of his WDC status and the connection with their new title sponsor.

Be that as it may, to go to a team with the history of Ferrari in regards to TOs and driver status, with a consolidated driver like FA there with his history of politics and team antics, would basically mean, "Beat Alonso as a newbie in the team during the first part of your first season or you are history". It's too risky for a driver like Vettel and I believe the interviews with him mirror this worry.

Kimi at Ferrari is another subject, but for what it's worth, to me it all boils down to the fact that Kimi has a wholly different attitude than most F1 top drivers.


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#102 jeze

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 00:01

That's precisely the point. For you and Ferrari Massa was not a contender anymore in 2010. For Massa (or even more Vettel) that point comes only when they are mathematically out of it. A top driver coming to a new team, as Vettel to Ferrari, would be expected to struggle initially with car adaptation issues, new team, etc. If they don't take this into account and just support Alonso in a hypothetical second part of 2014 because Vettel is subjectively out of it, be sure Vettel will not take it. Furthermore, I suspect that Ferrari, had the case been reversed in 2010, would not have done the same to Alonso because of his WDC status and the connection with their new title sponsor.

Be that as it may, to go to a team with the history of Ferrari in regards to TOs and driver status, with a consolidated driver like FA there with his history of politics and team antics, would basically mean, "Beat Alonso as a newbie in the team during the first part of your first season or you are history". It's too risky for a driver like Vettel and I believe the interviews with him mirror this worry.

Kimi at Ferrari is another subject, but for what it's worth, to me it all boils down to the fact that Kimi has a wholly different attitude than most F1 top drivers.



I remember both Kimi Räikkönen and Fernando Alonso winning on their Ferrari debuts, and Jenson Button winning his second McLaren race. That's just nonsense to suggest that a good driver can't adapt to new surroundings. An average driver might struggle for some time, but champions aren't in that category. If Vettel went to Ferrari, we'd straightaway know how he stacked up against Fernando.

I'd expect Fernando to beat Seb over a full season in identical cars, but if Vettel went to Ferrari and proved me wrong and won us the championship I'd bow down.



#103 forixfan

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 02:15

That's precisely the point. For you and Ferrari Massa was not a contender anymore in 2010. For Massa (or even more Vettel) that point comes only when they are mathematically out of it. A top driver coming to a new team, as Vettel to Ferrari, would be expected to struggle initially with car adaptation issues, new team, etc. If they don't take this into account and just support Alonso in a hypothetical second part of 2014 because Vettel is subjectively out of it, be sure Vettel will not take it. Furthermore, I suspect that Ferrari, had the case been reversed in 2010, would not have done the same to Alonso because of his WDC status and the connection with their new title sponsor.

Be that as it may, to go to a team with the history of Ferrari in regards to TOs and driver status, with a consolidated driver like FA there with his history of politics and team antics, would basically mean, "Beat Alonso as a newbie in the team during the first part of your first season or you are history". It's too risky for a driver like Vettel and I believe the interviews with him mirror this worry.

Kimi at Ferrari is another subject, but for what it's worth, to me it all boils down to the fact that Kimi has a wholly different attitude than most F1 top drivers.


As someone explained very well, 'mathematically out of it' is far too generous and improbable because under that notion, Felipe Massa is still a title contender right now. If Vettel is as good as you and he thinks he is, then he does not have to worry about suffering the same fate as Massa which came only as a result of being pathetically slow for half a season, and not being a credible title contender by half season. You are failing to understand that the driver works for the team, and owes, them, not the other way around, so he must deliver the right level of performance to dictate things. You cannot drive like a snail and stand up pointing the finger making demands.

If Vettel falls out of contention he supports his team mate, until next season, and then they both start fresh next season, as they do at Ferrari. Vettels fate is in his own hands, not the team's as you keep implying. Everything is dictated by performance, which is as fair as it comes. At Mclaren Alonso could not dictate because he was not fast enough, and the same thing would happen at Ferrari.

Edited by forixfan, 15 September 2012 - 02:17.


#104 CHIUNDA

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 03:09

All I know is that Luca di Montezemolo would never show his cards. So I don't give much value to his words.

Most teams would prefer Vettel over Hamilton btw. Choosing Hamilton is taking quite a leap of faith. He is not the best political player, for example.


When did political player become a good thing? JB is a good political player and it did not stop Ross Brawn getting rid of him.

#105 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 09:02

as Vettel to Ferrari, would be expected to struggle initially with car adaptation issues, new team, etc.

If Vettel is a top F1 driver he won't struggle full stop, at least not against his teammate.

If Vettel gets a Ferrari with massive understeer and is as bad as Massa against Alonso, Ferrari wiil not fix the car for Vettel. What does he expect, if Alonso is clearly showing the car is not slow, of course the team will not change it. But I seriously doubt Vettel will be so poor.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 September 2012 - 09:04.


#106 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 09:06

I remember both Kimi Räikkönen and Fernando Alonso winning on their Ferrari debuts,

The mighty Fisico :clap: :clap: also won on his Renault return :clap:

(Unfortunately it went a bit downhill after that :| :lol: )

#107 forixfan

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 09:07

If Vettel is a top F1 driver he won't struggle full stop, at least not against his teammate.

If Vettel gets a Ferrari with massive understeer and is as bad as Massa against Alonso, Ferrari wiil not fix the car for Vettel. What does he expect, if Alonso is clearly showing the car is not slow, of course the team will not change it. But I seriously doubt Vettel will be so poor.



Ferrari will try to fix massive understeer because it slows the car down.

#108 apoka

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 09:16

Vettel @ Ferrari :up:

It will happen eventually - not sure if that will be 2014.

#109 SNiko

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 09:33

Forget about this while Alonso is there, and I don't think he is going to retire in next 2 years. So, the answer is "no" to both questions.

#110 SpaMaster

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 10:01

If Vettel is a top F1 driver he won't struggle full stop, at least not against his teammate.

Alonso did struggle and had to adapt in the beginning when he went to McLaren. There is nothing to say top drivers don't struggle when in a new environment. Even Schumacher took time to adapt the team around him. The case becomes even more valid when the teammate is also a top driver, and has built the team and car around him over the years.

If Vettel gets a Ferrari with massive understeer and is as bad as Massa against Alonso, Ferrari wiil not fix the car for Vettel. What does he expect, if Alonso is clearly showing the car is not slow, of course the team will not change it. But I seriously doubt Vettel will be so poor.

Vettel will absolutely not join Ferrari under those terms. As already mentioned Vettel has clearly mentioned that he won't join Ferrari in its current set-up based around Alonso. The recent Monza incident-related Vettel remark on Alonso and some of the soundbites that came after Vettel won his WDC and Alonso not wanting to wish - all these seem to suggest that Vettel is very wary of the Alonso situation at Ferrari. We will see if/when Vettel goes to Ferrari and under what conditions.

#111 mardmarium

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 12:35

Alonso did struggle and had to adapt in the beginning when he went to McLaren. There is nothing to say top drivers don't struggle when in a new environment. Even Schumacher took time to adapt the team around him. The case becomes even more valid when the teammate is also a top driver, and has built the team and car around him over the years.


Vettel will absolutely not join Ferrari under those terms. As already mentioned Vettel has clearly mentioned that he won't join Ferrari in its current set-up based around Alonso. The recent Monza incident-related Vettel remark on Alonso and some of the soundbites that came after Vettel won his WDC and Alonso not wanting to wish - all these seem to suggest that Vettel is very wary of the Alonso situation at Ferrari. We will see if/when Vettel goes to Ferrari and under what conditions.


What’s Alonso situation at Ferrari? It seems that Alonso has been gifted with some kind of untouchable, preferential situation in which Ferrari gives him everything he wants, just because he is called Fernando Alonso.

When I read that Alonso has built the team and the car around him I wonder why some people consider him so powerful and Ferrari so…something like…we have no brains, whatever he wants just because he wants it. Things don´t have to be so complicated, things many times just flow. Alonso is a talented driver (one of the very best in opinion of many people), and one of his talents is that he has natural leadership ability... I would say that "he is like fish in the water". Why shouldn´t he explode all his potential? Why shouldn´t the team take advantage of this potential? I’ve heard that he spends long hours in Ferrari’s factory, interacting with mechanics, engineers, etc, he wants to be completely involved in what is happening, what´s the problem with that? The more implicated the driver is (mainly if the driver is really good doing what he does), the better for the team. Any other driver with equal/better talents (every person is different, so equal…really hard) could do the same, I’m sure it isn´t forbidden.

I would say that Ferrari considers Vettel as Alonso´s natural replacement. The perfect couple for me would be “Vettel at his peak + near retirement Alonso” (relaxed Alonso with some more titles in his bag would be the better for them as teammates and for the team, of course, more titles for the team would be a really good thing). Just my opinion, the truth is that I have no idea what they are going to do.


#112 RealRacing

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 15:01

As someone explained very well, 'mathematically out of it' is far too generous and improbable because under that notion, Felipe Massa is still a title contender right now. If Vettel is as good as you and he thinks he is, then he does not have to worry about suffering the same fate as Massa which came only as a result of being pathetically slow for half a season, and not being a credible title contender by half season. You are failing to understand that the driver works for the team, and owes, them, not the other way around, so he must deliver the right level of performance to dictate things. You cannot drive like a snail and stand up pointing the finger making demands.

If Vettel falls out of contention he supports his team mate, until next season, and then they both start fresh next season, as they do at Ferrari. Vettels fate is in his own hands, not the team's as you keep implying. Everything is dictated by performance, which is as fair as it comes. At Mclaren Alonso could not dictate because he was not fast enough, and the same thing would happen at Ferrari.


Let's just say that the right moment to support a driver is in the eye of the beholder and the only objective and fair way to do it is until one of the drivers is mathematically out of contention. It is the general perception that that point comes a little earlier at Ferrari than at most other top teams (or that it has with MS and FA) and this is not something I have made up but drivers such as Vettel himself and Button have said.

It is also a bit naive to believe, almost as an act of faith by some people, that Ferrari is really giving both drivers equal chance now and even at the beginning given FA's 2 WDCs, his past behavior and the big role played by his main sponsor at Ferrari as well as Ferrari's previous history. I am not saying that if FM would start to outperform FA they would sabotage him in favour of FA, but they have showed that they are not too willing to let them race when FA takes a lead in the WDC and that it is fine that way (that it is the way things are supposed to be). As said, ask yourselves what Ferrari would had done in 2010 had the roles been reversed, would they have not supported their new star driver and new sponsor for a bit longer? It is my opinion that they would have as titles, sponsors and behaviors, like it or not, carry weight in F1.

The driver or the team being the most important thing is an ongoing debate in F1 and, even if your position is that the team is above the driver, you have to concede that this is sport and these are not employees wearing suits and working shifts in an office for a multinational. The very nature of sport, and especially racing, is that you want to beat everyone, your teammate first and foremost, that you will fight till the end and that anything can happen until the last minute. I think it might be understandable that some racers lose motivation when they are denied that and treated as mere pawns. Having said that, there are drivers that, for x or y circumstance, don't have other alternative than to fulfill that role. Vettel is not one of them.

The point I was trying to make regarding adaptation, beyond the discussion if it is an issue or not (I believe it can be as FA himself experienced), is that a driver like Vettel or any top driver for that matter, will expect the team to give them a better chance than Massa was given in 2010. I am sensing Vettel and others are not sure they would be given that chance...

#113 mardmarium

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 17:22

Let's just say that the right moment to support a driver is in the eye of the beholder and the only objective and fair way to do it is until one of the drivers is mathematically out of contention. It is the general perception that that point comes a little earlier at Ferrari than at most other top teams (or that it has with MS and FA) and this is not something I have made up but drivers such as Vettel himself and Button have said.

It is also a bit naive to believe, almost as an act of faith by some people, that Ferrari is really giving both drivers equal chance now and even at the beginning given FA's 2 WDCs, his past behavior and the big role played by his main sponsor at Ferrari as well as Ferrari's previous history. I am not saying that if FM would start to outperform FA they would sabotage him in favour of FA, but they have showed that they are not too willing to let them race when FA takes a lead in the WDC and that it is fine that way (that it is the way things are supposed to be). As said, ask yourselves what Ferrari would had done in 2010 had the roles been reversed, would they have not supported their new star driver and new sponsor for a bit longer? It is my opinion that they would have as titles, sponsors and behaviors, like it or not, carry weight in F1.

The driver or the team being the most important thing is an ongoing debate in F1 and, even if your position is that the team is above the driver, you have to concede that this is sport and these are not employees wearing suits and working shifts in an office for a multinational. The very nature of sport, and especially racing, is that you want to beat everyone, your teammate first and foremost, that you will fight till the end and that anything can happen until the last minute. I think it might be understandable that some racers lose motivation when they are denied that and treated as mere pawns. Having said that, there are drivers that, for x or y circumstance, don't have other alternative than to fulfill that role. Vettel is not one of them.

The point I was trying to make regarding adaptation, beyond the discussion if it is an issue or not (I believe it can be as FA himself experienced), is that a driver like Vettel or any top driver for that matter, will expect the team to give them a better chance than Massa was given in 2010. I am sensing Vettel and others are not sure they would be given that chance...



Why is it so difficult to accept that Alonso has been better than Massa during these years?

Talking about Alonso’s experience in Mclaren and thinking about how it could have affected him, I really don´t know how that situation can be extrapolated. That was a very particular situation; in fact it could be defined as a surrealistic experience. Alonso was 2xWDC and his teammate was a rookie, he felt that the team was favoring the rookie driver instead of him, the team principal was his teammate’s mentor, his rookie teammate was incredible fast, probably Alonso´s ego was at his peak those days, probably he got frustrated, without any doubt he got upset, his team principal said out loud “we are racing Alonso", "spygate" controversy... surreal…and even so, Alonso managed to finish with the same points as Hamilton and one point less than Raikkonen. I don´t know who was right and who was wrong, a lot of opinions, but no evidence, my common sense dictates me that everyone was guilty in some way, including the driver who was hired, I bet that his mind wasn´t as focused as it should have been…

Vettel and others would have the chance if they were better than Alonso, as simple as that. Why should the team go against its own interests?



#114 bourbon

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 18:07

I remember both Kimi Räikkönen and Fernando Alonso winning on their Ferrari debuts, and Jenson Button winning his second McLaren race. That's just nonsense to suggest that a good driver can't adapt to new surroundings. An average driver might struggle for some time, but champions aren't in that category. If Vettel went to Ferrari, we'd straightaway know how he stacked up against Fernando.

I'd expect Fernando to beat Seb over a full season in identical cars, but if Vettel went to Ferrari and proved me wrong and won us the championship I'd bow down.


So you figure we all forgot how miserable Alonso did in the first half of his Ferrari debut, after winning that initial GP because of Vettel's sparkplug failure? Kimi did not win his first GP by matriculation - Alonso did. Furthermore, after that, Alonso went through a mistake ridden and crash happy period of adjustment. We do not all have memories of a sieve.

Since you proclaim an average driver might struggle for some time, are you suggesting that Alonso is average, becaused he did struggle through the entire first half of the season. He himself admitted the car was difficult for him to deal with and just before Monaco, compared himself to Kimi in 2009, declaring that despite it having been a extremely difficult car, Kimi had still managed to do okay and even win a GP.

Vettel said that he has no intention of making decisions to "prove" anything to anyone - he will do what he feels is best for him and his career. He has cited Alonso's contract as a possible roadblock to his going to Ferrari. Clearly, imo, he has no intention of accepting an offer of the type I feel Webber refused and Button commented about. If it is Alonso's world over at Ferrari, he doesn't deserve to have anyone of merit in it with him. He can remain functional #1 in his world with whatever drivers will subjugate themselves in that situation. Massa is shown tremendous disrespect by fans and some journos; commentators make scathing remarks about his ability and worth as a driver - do you really think any driver worth a damn would relish being in his shoes? I don't want to hear how awful Massa is because that is BS, imo. He has merely accepted the lot Ferrari doled out to him, end of (imo).

Vettel and others would have the chance if they were better than Alonso, as simple as that. Why should the team go against its own interests?


No, Ferrari will have a chance to have Vettel, if they offer him a deal that is fair. Otherwise Alonso can continue to be 'better than' Massa [sic] or 'better than' [sic] some other driver willing to be subjugated to Massa-like levels. But if Ferrari wants a champion or potential champion to join Alonso under those circumstances, they are living in a land of pipe dreams and unicorns.

There is no "better than" among top drivers. Vettel could destroy Alonso or visa versa depending on many factors, both legitimate and illegitimate. And with Alonso, the latter is a serious concern, imo. But even dealing with legitimate factors, either teammate might do better in a GP if all is fair between two top drivers on the same team experiencing relative parity. That is why:

1) teammate battles are senseless. If one has a KERS problem and the other doesn't, you can only roll your eyes when you come in here and people are talking about how the KERS hit driver was "destroyed" by his teammate. It is just stupidity. So unless there is a major differential in talent, it can go either way.

2) Ferrari's #1 policy is ignorant. I fully understand the idea of putting all your eggs in one basket and not having the teammates take points off of one another. But because of the nature of F1, a 50 point lead can be completely eroded in 2 races and so making a decision to castrate one of the drivers mid season is ridiculous. And that is of course assuming that Ferrari uses that midterm policy instead of the full term policy it also has employed.

Vettel has intimated that he will not go to Ferrari while Fernando is there, unless he is assured of contractual parity. He's already had to come back 40 points in 2010 with Mark in the lead at RBR, so he fully understands the importance of having the freedom to catch up during the latter half of the season. I don't think that is a right he'd give up lightly.

However, in my honest opinion, Vettel won't go to Ferrari until Alonso leaves because Alonso would not agree to the type of parity Vettel would demand. IMO Luca knows this - which is why he has said that Ferrari must be very careful in selecting teammates because they don't want a situation where there is disruption in the team on account of teammates.

Edited by bourbon, 15 September 2012 - 20:26.


#115 RealRacing

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 21:10

Why is it so difficult to accept that Alonso has been better than Massa during these years?

Talking about Alonso’s experience in Mclaren and thinking about how it could have affected him, I really don´t know how that situation can be extrapolated. That was a very particular situation; in fact it could be defined as a surrealistic experience. Alonso was 2xWDC and his teammate was a rookie, he felt that the team was favoring the rookie driver instead of him, the team principal was his teammate’s mentor, his rookie teammate was incredible fast, probably Alonso´s ego was at his peak those days, probably he got frustrated, without any doubt he got upset, his team principal said out loud “we are racing Alonso", "spygate" controversy... surreal…and even so, Alonso managed to finish with the same points as Hamilton and one point less than Raikkonen. I don´t know who was right and who was wrong, a lot of opinions, but no evidence, my common sense dictates me that everyone was guilty in some way, including the driver who was hired, I bet that his mind wasn´t as focused as it should have been…

Vettel and others would have the chance if they were better than Alonso, as simple as that. Why should the team go against its own interests?


To your first question I would answer: in all honesty I don't know if he's really that much better than Massa, at least as much as results suggest. I believe there are many more factors contributing to Alonso's dominance of Massa than driver talent alone (and I think I am not alone here) and let's leave it at that because we are going in circles.

Regarding McLAren, I am not saying that it affected Alonso in a negative way necessarily, but it gave him an experience on what to look for in the future. He said he should have been given No. 1 status at McLaren, he wasn't, things went wrong for him and the team. Don't you think there is a possibility that he at least mentioned to Ferrari the same thing he already had said to McLaren? And don't you think he and his team, big new sponsor included, negotiated much more wisely after what had happened at McLAren? It's only natural that a 2 x WDC backed by a new important sponsor, being offered a drive for a team desperate for championships would use all the negotiating power available to him. And is it also not possible that a team known for being one of the most clear advocates of a No. 1, No. 2 policy could have accommodated certain demands if they were made?

As far as the team going against its own interests by favouring one driver over another, I think you are not looking at the larger picture of F1, which goes far beyond their drivers or their cars winning WDCs and WCCs. Both sponsor and team marketing, sales, PR, financial and other interests are at stake. If you think about it, sadly for me, it's not only the No. 2 driver that is little more than a vehicle for team and sponsor interests, it's both. I think if you look at Bernie's attitude and suggestions for the sport, you get an idea of how it all really works.

Vettel and Button don't talk just for talking when they say they don't like the current situation at Ferrari. These are people who are much closer to F1 and know a lot more than us and who would also not make such comments for free. It's also not a coincidence that MW did not want to go to Ferrari, even after complaining of unfair treatment at RBR. There's a saying here, "if the river sounds, stones it brings."


#116 Clatter

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 21:13

Alonso won his first race in a Ferrari, Vettel can be quick from the start as well, after all he will have preseason testing.


I think KR did as well. Seems like this common knowledge hasn't been passed onto the drivers.

#117 SCUDmissile

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 22:19

If Vettel is a top F1 driver he won't struggle full stop, at least not against his teammate.

If Vettel gets a Ferrari with massive understeer and is as bad as Massa against Alonso, Ferrari wiil not fix the car for Vettel. What does he expect, if Alonso is clearly showing the car is not slow, of course the team will not change it. But I seriously doubt Vettel will be so poor.

Do you really think if Vettel has a problem, that Ferrari wouldn't try to fix it?
I mean they have 2 different teams in the garage for a reason. Or am I missing the point?

Anyways, it is nice to see the choice of drivers Ferrari have for the future. :cool:

#118 Mandzipop

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 22:38

Why would Ferrari be courting a double WDC to play second fiddle to another double WDC? Not logical unless they are prepared to give equal status.

I also think that people aren't giving Seb any credit for being ruthless and political. The facts are he doesn't have a manager, he does the work himself. His best buddy in the paddock is Bernie. I'm sure that Bernie has taught him a trick or 2.

I also remember DC saying that Seb is very demanding behind the scenes. Not the happy chappie that you see on tv. Don't underestimate him being able to play the mind games as good as Alonso.

I don't think the question is can Seb handle being up against Alonso, I think it is can Seb handle the pressure of being a Ferrari driver? That is a different ballgame altogether.

If Ferrari offer him a good enough contract with stipulations that he will get equal treatment then why should he not go? He's always said he wanted to drive for Ferrari. If Alonso beats him in the first year, depending on how much, it is no shame. Alonso has been with the team a long time and is probably the best driver on the grid. Seb is a guy who likes to learn new things. Learning from Alonso is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of strength. Whether he needs to, is up for a question mark.

#119 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 22:55

However, in my honest opinion, Vettel won't go to Ferrari until Alonso leaves because Alonso would not agree to the type of parity Vettel would demand. IMO Luca knows this - which is why he has said that Ferrari must be very careful in selecting teammates because they don't want a situation where there is disruption in the team on account of teammates.

I agree with your post, but you don't seem to be suggesting that the interest of the team is most important. Especially when it is the most important of all F1 teams.

For comparison, Power could get RHR whether he likes it or lumps it, because Penske is the captain. Of course RHR has (and will?) take the choice to avoid Team Penske, as his current machine is already super quick and well prepared.

The driver is just employed to race the cars. And time again, it has been shown that having drivers with different strengths (they do have different styles, so Vettel and Alonso might be each be better at different types of circuits?) can be helpful at least in WCC. Sometimes Button struggles. Sometimes Hamilton struggles (in fact crashes into Webber or Massa, after frustration from losing places with poor start or slow pitstop, most often, last season!!). Either way we know at least one McLaren driver is pushing it to the limit on a given raceday.



After all Massa can and did beat Raikkonen in many races and over a season. Surely this is proof enough that Maranello is capable of preparing two equal specification cars and giving fair strategies! Vettel has nothing to be scared of. Drive the mighty scarlet cars with a good of chance as anybody. :up: :up: (Red Bull are on the way out IMO, they are weak in powertrain area--they still chose to use an unreliable lightweight KERS package that hardly works properly--and that will become more important than aerodynamics).

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#120 forixfan

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 23:53

Let's just say that the right moment to support a driver is in the eye of the beholder and the only objective and fair way to do it is until one of the drivers is mathematically out of contention. It is the general perception that that point comes a little earlier at Ferrari than at most other top teams .


And is there something neccessarily unfair about that? Was Hockenheim 2010 justified or not? I think it was.

It is also a bit naive to believe, almost as an act of faith by some people, that Ferrari is really giving both drivers equal chance now and even at the beginning given FA's 2 WDCs, his past behavior and the big role played by his main sponsor at Ferrari as well as Ferrari's previous history. I am not saying that if FM would start to outperform FA they would sabotage him in favour of FA, but they have showed that they are not too willing to let them race when FA takes a lead in the WDC and that it is fine that way (that it is the way things are supposed to be). As said, ask yourselves what Ferrari would had done in 2010 had the roles been reversed, would they have not supported their new star driver and new sponsor for a bit longer? It is my opinion that they would have as titles, sponsors and behaviors, like it or not, carry weight in F1.


Its not naive or an act of faith because there is nothing to support what you are alleging They gave the drivers equal chances in the first half of 2010 so why wouldn't they do it now? Alonso was double wc, with a big title sponsor and pay check at the start of 2010. Once again you are just offering innuendo without supporting it. How is Massa not being equally supported? You need to give us some specific examples. Asking how the team would have reacted if the roles had been reversed in 2010 is a bit hollow because it would require Alonso to drive like Massa, and Massa like Alonso, so its not plausible.

You seem to be misunderstanding the workings of number 1 status on a practical level, and believe that it involves some broad level of restriction that totally undermines the driver. All that it really involves and needs to involve is that Massa move over for Alonso under specific circumstances. That's it, everything else is completely equal allowing Massa to perform as well as he can. You keep implying that just because Massa had to move over for Alonso once in 50 races somehow has totally under mined him and ruined his career and is not allowing him to compete against Alonso, which is ridiculous.

#121 forixfan

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 23:55

To your first question I would answer: in all honesty I don't know if he's really that much better than Massa, at least as much as results suggest. I believe there are many more factors contributing to Alonso's dominance of Massa than driver talent alone (and I think I am not alone here) and let's leave it at that because we are going in circles.


So lets just throw out an accusation without bothering to substantiate it? I would love to hear your explanation as to the real factors for Alonso consistently being 0.5 a lap faster than Massa.

#122 RealRacing

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:28

And is there something neccessarily unfair about that? Was Hockenheim 2010 justified or not? I think it was.


There's a whole thread about this so I am not going to go into it again. Let's just say that a lot of people believe it was unjustified, premature and unfair and others think it was justified and necessary. As said, an opinion on when such a decision is fair or unfair or timely or not is subjective. The only objective measure is a driver being mathematically out of the championship. In a way, the point in time the decision is taken to back only one driver for the WDC, gives a clue as to which policy a team has in this matter, if they are more interested in the WDC or WCC and which driver they favor (expressly or not). The differences in this matter between Ferrari and McLaren are very illustrative of this.


Its not naive or an act of faith because there is nothing to support what you are alleging They gave the drivers equal chances in the first half of 2010 so why wouldn't they do it now? Alonso was double wc, with a big title sponsor and pay check at the start of 2010. Once again you are just offering innuendo without supporting it. How is Massa not being equally supported? You need to give us some specific examples. Asking how the team would have reacted if the roles had been reversed in 2010 is a bit hollow because it would require Alonso to drive like Massa, and Massa like Alonso, so its not plausible.


For me the early decision to back FA in 2010 was a result of a driver that came into a team with a lot of negotiating power due to his and the team's history and circumstances. How was Massa not being equally supported? By not allowing him a chance to fight until he's objectively out of it. The fact that FM has become Ferrari's No. 2 after that is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And I think it's a fair question to ask what would have happened in 2010 if things had been reversed and it wouldn't require what you suggest at all. It would have required a blown engine in FA's car for a couple of the first races.

You seem to be misunderstanding the workings of number 1 status on a practical level, and believe that it involves some broad level of restriction that totally undermines the driver. All that it really involves and needs to involve is that Massa move over for Alonso under specific circumstances. That's it, everything else is completely equal allowing Massa to perform as well as he can. You keep implying that just because Massa had to move over for Alonso once in 50 races somehow has totally under mined him and ruined his career and is not allowing him to compete against Alonso, which is ridiculous.


I am not saying Ferrari has been putting bananas in Massa's tailpipe. All I am saying is that No. 1 status works differently at different teams and IMO Massa would perform better if he had been/was allowed to compete for longer. I can't tell you how much Massa was affected if at all, but I can say that, again IMO, in this sport letting the guys fight their teammates for longer seems to work out better, at least for the WCC.

#123 RealRacing

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:34

So lets just throw out an accusation without bothering to substantiate it? I would love to hear your explanation as to the real factors for Alonso consistently being 0.5 a lap faster than Massa.


If I see an accusation, I'd love to explain whatever you want.

#124 DarkknightRises

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:38

After all Massa can and did beat Raikkonen in many races and over a season. Surely this is proof enough that Maranello is capable of preparing two equal specification cars and giving fair strategies! Vettel has nothing to be scared of. Drive the mighty scarlet cars with a good of chance as anybody. :up: :up: (Red Bull are on the way out IMO, they are weak in powertrain area--they still chose to use an unreliable lightweight KERS package that hardly works properly--and that will become more important than aerodynamics).


Please do not compare the ferrari of 2006-2009 with fernando 's era!! Remember when trulli outshone fernando in 2004, he was kicked out from the team!! Thats the fernando way of doing stuff, the team must focus on him solely, and whenever his teammate is in front, they need to move out of the way~~ more ridiculous was during 2007, whenever lewis was in front, he keep yelling in trasnmission radio and demand lewis to let him pass....that sum up fernando pretty well!! Can only perform well without competition with his teammate!! Massa can still have a say on the car he desire during 2006-2009, and kimi couldn't care less about the car development, which gave him the chances to develop his own car!! with fernando onboard, you can be very sure that none of his word went through the car designer's ear!!

There's no such thing as equal treatment, just the way FA fans like to paint it out to be~~ the whole paddock knew his way of doing stuff~!! Thats why Mika said, everyteam focus on two drivers, only ferrari focus 100% on 1 driver, hence their rate of development is more fast than the other team!!

Edited by DarkknightRises, 16 September 2012 - 03:42.


#125 bourbon

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:48

Please do not compare the ferrari of 2006-2009 with fernando 's era!! Remember when trulli outshone fernando in 2004, he was kicked out from the team!! Thats the fernando way of doing stuff, the team must focus on him solely, and whenever his teammate is in front, they need to move out of the way~~ more ridiculous was during 2007, whenever lewis was in front, he keep yelling in trasnmission radio and demand lewis to let him pass....that sum up fernando pretty well!! Can only perform well without competition with his teammate!! Massa can still have a say on the car he desire during 2006-2009, and kimi couldn't care less about the car development, which gave him the chances to develop his own car!! with fernando onboard, you can be very sure that none of his word went through the car designer's ear!!

There's no such thing as equal treatment, just the way FA fans like to paint it out to be~~ the whole paddock knew his way of doing stuff~!! Thats why Mika said, everyteam focus on two drivers, only ferrari focus 100% on 1 driver, hence their rate of development is more fast than the other team!!


:up:

That is why Seb wouldn't go - in a nutshell. But also why Ferrari would not have him come - in a nutshell.

#126 DarkknightRises

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:56

:up:

That is why Seb wouldn't go - in a nutshell. But also why Ferrari would not have him come - in a nutshell.


ferrari lock on vettel as a replacement for fernando...not his teammate!!!

#127 Jimisgod

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 04:38

Remember when trulli outshone fernando in 2004, he was kicked out from the team!!


They were about equal until Flavio was a dickbag, but the race record was 2 - 6 to Trulli for the first 9 races.

But I do agree, Alonso only seems comfortable with a subservient teammate, but that seems very little different to Schumacher at Ferrari. Only Rosberg and Piquet from MSC's first year were treated equally as Schumi. It is possible Brundle was equal too, but by the time he proved he wasn't as good as MSC, Schumi was a guaranteed #1 in Benetton until 1996.

Edited by Jimisgod, 16 September 2012 - 04:41.


#128 exmayol

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:18

I think 2014 would be a bit early from the mental prospective. At this time FA seems so much stronger in that department. I'd like to see SV in RBR for few more years and with a car that allows wins but by no means a walk to the championship. That will make him stronger and more prepared to face FA in equal machinery and potentially in the environment SV is not udes to.

#129 pizzalover

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 15:03

McLaren will replace Hamilton with Rosberg in 2013 and Button with Vettel in 2014.

#130 jeze

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 15:11

McLaren will replace Hamilton with Rosberg in 2013 and Button with Vettel in 2014.


If you lie long enough on the floor watching the clouds you can begin to sense that the earth is moving. Of course you can't but if you repeat it enough you might start to believe it.


Whitmarsh has a manlove for Button and there are only two teams that can afford Vettel's wage demands if he'd leave Red Bull and McLaren aren't one of them. Merc will surely splash their budget on Hamilton now, so that leaves Vettel with the Ferrari option only if he wants an Alonso/Hamilton-esque salary.



#131 pizzalover

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 15:20

If you lie long enough on the floor watching the clouds you can begin to sense that the earth is moving. Of course you can't but if you repeat it enough you might start to believe it.


Whitmarsh has a manlove for Button and there are only two teams that can afford Vettel's wage demands if he'd leave Red Bull and McLaren aren't one of them. Merc will surely splash their budget on Hamilton now, so that leaves Vettel with the Ferrari option only if he wants an Alonso/Hamilton-esque salary.



Yeah, but what if McLaren won both titles this year and next. Not out the question is it? I reckon Vettel loves driving winning cars and McLaren loves having the fastest driver. Scratch Alonso out and your left with Seb.

Logical isn't it. Try it, you might like it :smoking:

#132 jeze

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 15:28

Yeah, but what if McLaren won both titles this year and next. Not out the question is it? I reckon Vettel loves driving winning cars and McLaren loves having the fastest driver. Scratch Alonso out and your left with Seb.

Logical isn't it. Try it, you might like it :smoking:

It's not completely impossible, but if McLaren can't afford Hamilton, how are they going to afford Vettel?




#133 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 15:29

Please do not compare the ferrari of 2006-2009 with fernando 's era!!

Yea, that would be terribly inconvenient for your argument, wouldn't it? :lol:

There's no reason to think that Massa hasn't gotten a fair shot. Alonso gets his no.1 status because Massa doesn't keep himself in the championship fight. People like to think otherwise because they dont want to admit that Ferrari ARE capable of being fair and that Alonso actually earns his position each and every year.

Anyways, I'm of the opinion that Vettel to Ferrari is just a wild rumor that people have seemed to have clung on to for some reason. Every year there's a rumor about this or that driver going to Ferrari, but this Vettel one has stuck, probably because he's Vettel and is a bigger deal than the other rumors. I'm doubtful there's anything already agreed upon, but I do think its possible to see him in red in the future, whether alongside Alonso or replacing him when Alonso bows out.

As for if its the right move, who are we talking about here? For Vettel, it may not be the best move to make if Red Bull continue to churn out top-level cars. If Newey were to leave Red Bull, I'd probably think Vettel would take a good look at Ferrari. For Ferrari, I absolutely think it would be a great move, provided they can afford him and Alonso. This 'its Alonso's team' is a result of Alonso simply being a lot better than Massa. If Vettel was close/as good/better than Alonso, it wouldn't be Alonso's team anymore, although he'd certainly be well-liked within the team already. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't let Vettel have his go, though. There'd be no point in bringing him in if they were just going to try and slow him down.

I'd love to see it happen. I like Vettel and think he's a great driver as well.

#134 RealRacing

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 15:36

:up:

That is why Seb wouldn't go - in a nutshell. But also why Ferrari would not have him come - in a nutshell.


Kimi says it best (or doesn't)

#135 pizzalover

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 15:38

It's not completely impossible, but if McLaren can't afford Hamilton, how are they going to afford Vettel?


They can afford it. But is he(Hamilton) worth it? If, obviously a big if, they prove themselves to be unquestionably the fastest team by 2014, they will have more money and more negotiating power.

In my mind, Vettel or Alonso in an equal or faster Ferrari is a prospect that cannot be acceptable to McLaren. A McLaren/Vettel combo might be the only way of beating an Alonso/Ferrari combo.


That's unless, of course, an new wonder kid turns up on the block in the next 12 months. Bottas perhaps?

#136 jeze

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 15:53

What is also under question is exactly how Vettel's contract with RBR looks like was it like something of not being in top three of the WDC after Monaco next year? I struggle to see that would happen - since I don't believe RBR will ever produce a proper dog of a car as long as Newey is there. Vettel could very well be a deal for 2015 too - or Ferrari just buys him out of the contract's final year. What is comes down to is how much Ferrari want the WCC and how much damage they want to inflict on RBR.



#137 TT6

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 16:19

I think Ferrari tactics has been to get one great driver and one in a supporting role. They won't even consider a top dog until the old no 1 is leaving. If that's happening they try very hard to get a new no 1.

This was the case when Schumi left. The plan was that Räikkönen would be the no 1 but I think they got second thought when they noticed Massa was pretty close. When the opportunity to get Alonso came it was logical to ditch Kimi instead of Massa.

Because Vettel is a double WDC, a proven winner and a top calibre driver Ferrari won't take him until Alonso retires. I see Vettel going to McLaren rather than Ferrari.

#138 pizzalover

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 16:38

I think Ferrari tactics has been to get one great driver and one in a supporting role. They won't even consider a top dog until the old no 1 is leaving. If that's happening they try very hard to get a new no 1.

This was the case when Schumi left. The plan was that Räikkönen would be the no 1 but I think they got second thought when they noticed Massa was pretty close. When the opportunity to get Alonso came it was logical to ditch Kimi instead of Massa.

Because Vettel is a double WDC, a proven winner and a top calibre driver Ferrari won't take him until Alonso retires. I see Vettel going to McLaren rather than Ferrari.


Wise words. Banning wings too :)

Bear in mind, McL and Ferrari don't care if RB or who ever is winning. As long as it's not each other!! As I said above a winning Ferrari/Alonso combo is not acceptable to McL. Only Vettel is, so far, capable of challenging this.

Edited by pizzalover, 16 September 2012 - 16:38.


#139 jeze

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 17:34

I think Ferrari tactics has been to get one great driver and one in a supporting role. They won't even consider a top dog until the old no 1 is leaving. If that's happening they try very hard to get a new no 1.

This was the case when Schumi left. The plan was that Räikkönen would be the no 1 but I think they got second thought when they noticed Massa was pretty close. When the opportunity to get Alonso came it was logical to ditch Kimi instead of Massa.

Because Vettel is a double WDC, a proven winner and a top calibre driver Ferrari won't take him until Alonso retires. I see Vettel going to McLaren rather than Ferrari.



Kimi signed in 2005, then they told Schumacher he was free to continue but his team mate would be Kimi - Schumacher then decided to retire. Since Alonso has a contract until 2016 he'll simply have to accept the team mate they choose for him.

If Ferrari signed Kimi behind the back of their five-time champ what in the world do you think would stop them from hiring Vettel against the wishes of a driver who is yet to win the title for Ferrari at all?

Alonso also signed with Ferrari with the condition that Massa - the Kimi-beater of the 2008 and first half of 2009 seasons. It was never the case that Alonso was signed as the undisputed #1, but he proved himself better than Massa.

It's easy to make conclusions without looking at the facts. Ferrari have no #1-driver contract post-Schumacher. That was the one thing that caused Schumacher to retire that he lost his #1 status (he continued to race all sorts of things and ultimately came back which proves my point). Alonso can't walk away from a three year contract without paying a huge compensation to Ferrari, so he'd simply have to shove it. Whether Vettel has signed/wants to sign/is going to sign is a completely different matter. All I know is that he is earmarked to drive for Ferrari at some point in the future, unless something radically changes... like some wonderkid comes in the way or something.



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#140 jeze

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 17:37

Wise words. Banning wings too :)

Bear in mind, McL and Ferrari don't care if RB or who ever is winning. As long as it's not each other!! As I said above a winning Ferrari/Alonso combo is not acceptable to McL. Only Vettel is, so far, capable of challenging this.


I'm a Ferrari fan rather than a driver fan, and I speak from my heart when I say that I'm more pissed off when Red Bull win a race than when McLaren do. Their antics with regards to the rules have made sure they're not very popular among most teams right now - but especially Ferrari and McLaren fans really want Red Bull to fail in general. It's gone so far as Hamilton fans popping into the Alonso thread saying "if Hamilton can't win I hope Ferrari do, as long as Red Bull don't."


I guess the attitude down on the team shop floor is rather similar. LdM would absolutely love crippling Red Bull, and to do that he needs either Newey or Vettel. Seb is the one who is easiest to get. So it all makes sense really.

Edited by jeze, 16 September 2012 - 17:38.


#141 SpaMaster

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 18:06

..
It's easy to make conclusions without looking at the facts. Ferrari have no #1-driver contract post-Schumacher. That was the one thing that caused Schumacher to retire that he lost his #1 status (he continued to race all sorts of things and ultimately came back which proves my point). Alonso can't walk away from a three year contract without paying a huge compensation to Ferrari, so he'd simply have to shove it. Whether Vettel has signed/wants to sign/is going to sign is a completely different matter. All I know is that he is earmarked to drive for Ferrari at some point in the future, unless something radically changes... like some wonderkid comes in the way or something.

If Schumacher had number 1 driver contract, what makes you think Alonso won't have something similar? Alonso himself said recently that he has a say on who his teammate can be at Ferrari. It's not like Ferrari won't brush side their former no.1 when they get old, but until that time they do seem to enjoy some special status. That is why Vettel said he won't go to Ferrari under the current status of Alonso. He may go there when Alonso gets old and ready to be kicked out, as Alonso's replacement.

#142 SpaMaster

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 18:10

I'm a Ferrari fan rather than a driver fan, and I speak from my heart when I say that I'm more pissed off when Red Bull win a race than when McLaren do. Their antics with regards to the rules have made sure they're not very popular among most teams right now - but especially Ferrari and McLaren fans really want Red Bull to fail in general. It's gone so far as Hamilton fans popping into the Alonso thread saying "if Hamilton can't win I hope Ferrari do, as long as Red Bull don't."


I guess the attitude down on the team shop floor is rather similar. LdM would absolutely love crippling Red Bull, and to do that he needs either Newey or Vettel. Seb is the one who is easiest to get. So it all makes sense really.

Ferrari and McLaren are no less cheaters compared to Red Bull. There is a reason Ferrari is known as the dark side and McLaren have just had $100 million fine and liegate recently.

#143 study

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 18:11

I think Ferrari tactics has been to get one great driver and one in a supporting role. They won't even consider a top dog until the old no 1 is leaving. If that's happening they try very hard to get a new no 1.

This was the case when Schumi left. The plan was that Räikkönen would be the no 1 but I think they got second thought when they noticed Massa was pretty close. When the opportunity to get Alonso came it was logical to ditch Kimi instead of Massa.

Because Vettel is a double WDC, a proven winner and a top calibre driver Ferrari won't take him until Alonso retires. I see Vettel going to McLaren rather than Ferrari.


And you don't think Redbull go out of their way to make Vettel no1?

#144 jeze

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 20:04

If Schumacher had number 1 driver contract, what makes you think Alonso won't have something similar? Alonso himself said recently that he has a say on who his teammate can be at Ferrari. It's not like Ferrari won't brush side their former no.1 when they get old, but until that time they do seem to enjoy some special status. That is why Vettel said he won't go to Ferrari under the current status of Alonso. He may go there when Alonso gets old and ready to be kicked out, as Alonso's replacement.


What Vettel actually said was that he wanted to make sure Fernando would have no preferential treatment, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say. But since Ferrari haven't done the obvious and hired Pérez and LdM praising Vettel in the media there must be some smoke to this fire.

#145 RealRacing

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 20:15

Kimi signed in 2005, then they told Schumacher he was free to continue but his team mate would be Kimi - Schumacher then decided to retire. Since Alonso has a contract until 2016 he'll simply have to accept the team mate they choose for him.


Proof

If Ferrari signed Kimi behind the back of their five-time champ...


Proof

Alonso also signed with Ferrari with the condition that Massa - the Kimi-beater of the 2008 and first half of 2009 seasons.


With the condition that Massa...what?
Ok, you're a Kimi hater.

It was never the case that Alonso was signed as the undisputed #1...Ferrari have no #1-driver contract post-Schumacher.

That was the one thing that caused Schumacher to retire that he lost his #1 status (he continued to race all sorts of things and ultimately came back which proves my point).


Proof
Haha

Alonso can't walk away from a three year contract without paying a huge compensation to Ferrari, so he'd simply have to shove it. Whether Vettel has signed/wants to sign/is going to sign is a completely different matter. All I know is that he is earmarked to drive for Ferrari at some point in the future, unless something radically changes... like some wonderkid comes in the way or something.


And you have been earmarked to go to the ignore list.


#146 jeze

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 22:07

Proof



Proof



With the condition that Massa...what?
Ok, you're a Kimi hater.



Proof
Haha



And you have been earmarked to go to the ignore list.


Ferrari had #1 sratus under Schumacher but not when he retired, because Kimi signed a contract where he was equal to Massa. But since you can't read what I write I assume it's just the best thing to do if you add me to your f*cking ignore list. My ignore list is empty because I enjoy watching clueless Kimi fans ranting about how evil and bad Fernando and Ferrari are. :wave:

Grow a pair. I think Fernando would beat Seb no matter what if they were team mates, so there's no need for him to be guaranteed #1. If you listened to what he said on his press conference in Madrid, you'd probably sense that he felt the same thing too. It'd be close but I believe Fernando would have the upper hand. And as a Ferrari fan I want the two best drivers around to drive the car, and if Vettel wants to come, he's welcome.

Kimi hater? No I just dislike many of his ignorant supporters. Kimi is always a driver I will remember fondly as a Ferrari driver, but Fernando's done a better job considering how the car is. But I will never forget the 2007 season and I have great respect for Kimi due to that. I will however see him as a rival until he retires, just like with Schumacher.

I'd prefer not to be on your ignore list but it's your choice.

Edited by jeze, 16 September 2012 - 22:09.


#147 bourbon

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 02:03

I'm a Ferrari fan rather than a driver fan, and I speak from my heart when I say that I'm more pissed off when Red Bull win a race than when McLaren do. Their antics with regards to the rules have made sure they're not very popular among most teams right now - but especially Ferrari and McLaren fans really want Red Bull to fail in general. It's gone so far as Hamilton fans popping into the Alonso thread saying "if Hamilton can't win I hope Ferrari do, as long as Red Bull don't."


I guess the attitude down on the team shop floor is rather similar. LdM would absolutely love crippling Red Bull, and to do that he needs either Newey or Vettel. Seb is the one who is easiest to get. So it all makes sense really.


That's interesting. I am not a fan of any constructor, but as a fan of drivers I am even more pissed off at Ferrari because their treament of drivers over the years has been completely and utterly destestable - abominable - disgusting.

Red Bull is just the champion being accused of cheating - that happens to all champs, including the red car as I am sure you recall. But not all constructors treat their drivers - champions, even their own champions - their own multi-World Champions - the way Ferrari does. It is unbelievable to me that any driver would even consider driving for them. I suppose they figure it won't happen to them. But it will. Next up: Massa then Alonso...

So I think Vettel should avoid the place altogether - but he won't, he loves Ferrari. All I can do is remain a fan through it all as I did for Alain and Kimi. I just hope I don't have to go through yet ANOTHER sabbatical.

Edited by bourbon, 17 September 2012 - 02:04.


#148 Nitropower

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 02:16

That's interesting. I am not a fan of any constructor, but as a fan of drivers I am even more pissed off at Ferrari because their treament of drivers over the years has been completely and utterly destestable - abominable - disgusting.

Red Bull is just the champion being accused of cheating - that happens to all champs, including the red car as I am sure you recall. But not all constructors treat their drivers - champions, even their own champions - their own multi-World Champions - the way Ferrari does. It is unbelievable to me that any driver would even consider driving for them. I suppose they figure it won't happen to them. But it will. Next up: Massa then Alonso...

So I think Vettel should avoid the place altogether - but he won't, he loves Ferrari. All I can do is remain a fan through it all as I did for Alain and Kimi. I just hope I don't have to go through yet ANOTHER sabbatical.


I wonder why you believe Red Bull or other teams act different regarding team orders or driver status (for example Webber hasn't looked like an equally treated driver regardless if he actually is slower or not). Hypocresy is even more detestable.

#149 bourbon

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 02:32

I wonder why you believe Red Bull or other teams act different regarding team orders or driver status (for example Webber hasn't looked like an equally treated driver regardless if he actually is slower or not). Hypocresy is even more detestable.


I wasn't speaking about the number one policy. I was speaking about Ferrari's treatment of ALL Ferrari drivers, independent of their position or status on the team and in the racing world.

As to the point you raised about the policy, I believe there is an entire thread dedicated to the #1 policy in which I have thoroughly aired my views - and where we can discuss this if you like. Let me know, as I will meet you there. :up:

Edited by bourbon, 17 September 2012 - 02:34.


#150 forixfan

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:14

Please do not compare the ferrari of 2006-2009 with fernando 's era!! Remember when trulli outshone fernando in 2004, he was kicked out from the team!! Thats the fernando way of doing stuff, the team must focus on him solely, and whenever his teammate is in front, they need to move out of the way~~ more ridiculous was during 2007, whenever lewis was in front, he keep yelling in trasnmission radio and demand lewis to let him pass....that sum up fernando pretty well!! Can only perform well without competition with his teammate!! Massa can still have a say on the car he desire during 2006-2009, and kimi couldn't care less about the car development, which gave him the chances to develop his own car!! with fernando onboard, you can be very sure that none of his word went through the car designer's ear!!

There's no such thing as equal treatment, just the way FA fans like to paint it out to be~~ the whole paddock knew his way of doing stuff~!! Thats why Mika said, everyteam focus on two drivers, only ferrari focus 100% on 1 driver, hence their rate of development is more fast than the other team!!



lol Trulli willingly left the team because he could not handle being beaten so badly, he was not kicked out.

Edited by forixfan, 17 September 2012 - 06:22.