Jump to content


Photo
* * - - - 9 votes

Vettel off to Ferrari in 2014?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1198 replies to this topic

Poll: Vettel off to Ferrari in 2014? (518 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you think Vettel is heading to Ferrari in 2014?

  1. Yes, he's going (162 votes [31.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.33%

  2. No, he's staying (196 votes [37.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.91%

  3. Not enough information to form an opinion either way (159 votes [30.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.75%

If he did move to Ferrar would it be the right choice?

  1. Yes (175 votes [33.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.85%

  2. No (259 votes [50.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.10%

  3. I don't have enough information to form an opinion either way (83 votes [16.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.05%

Vote

#151 forixfan

forixfan
  • Member

  • 102 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:21

For me the early decision to back FA in 2010 was a result of a driver that came into a team with a lot of negotiating power due to his and the team's history and circumstances. And I think it's a fair question to ask what would have happened in 2010 if things had been reversed and it wouldn't require what you suggest at all. It would have required a blown engine in FA's car for a couple of the first races.


Early decision to back Alonso? It was the 11th race of the season! Thats not early, they gave Massa so much time. And if Alonso had so much negotiating power in combination with the teams history, why wasn't he backed from race 1??

I am not saying Ferrari has been putting bananas in Massa's tailpipe. All I am saying is that No. 1 status works differently at different teams and IMO Massa would perform better if he had been/was allowed to compete for longer. I can't tell you how much Massa was affected if at all, but I can say that, again IMO, in this sport letting the guys fight their teammates for longer seems to work out better, at least for the WCC.


You are not saying anything, other than baseless assertions. Massa is totally free to compete with Alonso but the problem is he is always behind him, and since Germany 2010, has only beaten him in 1 race, which has absolutely nothing to do with team status, as you are trying to imply, and smear Alonso and the team. If they made Massa number 1 tomorrow, what do you think would change? He would suddenly start beating Alonso? Team leader status us directly performance rated so if Vettel is as good as you and he thinks, he should not be scared of Ferrari and Alonso, although I think he is.

Edited by forixfan, 17 September 2012 - 06:25.


Advertisement

#152 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,233 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:03

lol Trulli willingly left the team because he could not handle being beaten so badly, he was not kicked out.


You weren't watching in 2004 were you?

#153 jeze

jeze
  • Member

  • 2,973 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 17 September 2012 - 15:53

That's interesting. I am not a fan of any constructor, but as a fan of drivers I am even more pissed off at Ferrari because their treament of drivers over the years has been completely and utterly destestable - abominable - disgusting.

Red Bull is just the champion being accused of cheating - that happens to all champs, including the red car as I am sure you recall. But not all constructors treat their drivers - champions, even their own champions - their own multi-World Champions - the way Ferrari does. It is unbelievable to me that any driver would even consider driving for them. I suppose they figure it won't happen to them. But it will. Next up: Massa then Alonso...

So I think Vettel should avoid the place altogether - but he won't, he loves Ferrari. All I can do is remain a fan through it all as I did for Alain and Kimi. I just hope I don't have to go through yet ANOTHER sabbatical.


Ultimately what it comes down to is that Ferrari is a ruthless team like all other top teams are and have been. Remember how Mansell and Hill were thrown under the bus by Williams after their world titles, and to an extent Prost too. Williams have just kept three of their seven WDC's the year afterwards.

McLaren announced Montoya more than a year in advance and did the same with Alonso, effectively telling their #2 driver that he wasn't wanted - in the case of Montoya this was despite him winning three races in 2005.

So all teams treat drivers dodgy at times, but at the end of the day they do what they feel is the best thing for the team. Kimi doesn't hate Ferrari, in fact in most currencies around the world he became a billionare thanks to Ferrari. At the end of the day it's business. Kimi wanted to sit his contract out and it'd been cheaper to release Felipe, but Felipe came from a 1,5 year-patch where he'd looked stronger than Kimi and better integrated into the team, so at the time it looked as Ferrari released the right driver... At the end of the day the switch came about because Alonso and Santander were desperate to launch their Ferrari partnerships simultaneously, and ultimately that gave Fernando the chance to race for the 2010 championship, which had been unlikely in that year's Renault car.

#154 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 17 September 2012 - 15:58

What Vettel actually said was that he wanted to make sure Fernando would have no preferential treatment,

No, what Vettel said was what I said earlier i.e. he won't join Ferrari with the set-up Alonso has built around him

which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say. But since Ferrari haven't done the obvious and hired Pérez and LdM praising Vettel in the media there must be some smoke to this fire.

Why should the hire Perez? There are 'n' number of driver better than Massa. Normally a driver like Massa would have been kicked after the end of last season. But he still continues to drive there..

#155 toxicfusion

toxicfusion
  • Member

  • 519 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 17 September 2012 - 16:27

Please do not compare the ferrari of 2006-2009 with fernando 's era!! Remember when trulli outshone fernando in 2004, he was kicked out from the team!! Thats the fernando way of doing stuff, the team must focus on him solely, and whenever his teammate is in front, they need to move out of the way~~ more ridiculous was during 2007, whenever lewis was in front, he keep yelling in trasnmission radio and demand lewis to let him pass....that sum up fernando pretty well!! Can only perform well without competition with his teammate!! Massa can still have a say on the car he desire during 2006-2009, and kimi couldn't care less about the car development, which gave him the chances to develop his own car!! with fernando onboard, you can be very sure that none of his word went through the car designer's ear!!


Be sure to say hi to Stefano and Pat Fry.


If they couldn't give a toss about Felipe, why was he given the car during winter testing, or even the first day of testing?


And Hamilton didn't rant and yell at the pit wall in 2007? :rolleyes:





People rant and rave about the competitiveness of team mates and while combinations of Alonso/Vettel, Alonso/Hamilton and Vettel/Hamilton may be dream worth they are unlikely to occur. All three have egos and their drawbacks to being in a team which is why combining them is rarely considered.

Edited by toxicfusion, 17 September 2012 - 16:32.


#156 jeze

jeze
  • Member

  • 2,973 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 17 September 2012 - 16:32

No, what Vettel said was what I said earlier i.e. he won't join Ferrari with the set-up Alonso has built around him

Why should the hire Perez? There are 'n' number of driver better than Massa. Normally a driver like Massa would have been kicked after the end of last season. But he still continues to drive there..


Alonso outqualified Grosjean by a massive number.

Massa outscored Räikkönen.

Räikkönen is outqualified by Grosjean...

Come on... I know Kimi fans are usually bitter but some of you are just outrageous. To say that Massa doesn't belong in F1? Seriously... the guy won 11 Grands Prix. I know that Grosjean is more experienced in terms of F1 mileage now so is arguably faster, but Alonso proved the decision to leave Kimi out was the correct one. Vettel would have a major challenge on his hands and if he didn't go he'd chicken out in my opinion. I want the two best drivers possible at Ferrari, so I'm desperate to get Vettel there to see what he could do.

#157 andresitoiniesta

andresitoiniesta
  • Member

  • 118 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 17 September 2012 - 16:48

Whoever goes to Ferrari in the next four seasons is going to deal with a second driver role, that´s for sure. I don´t see Vettel accepting this role, because it´s a two time WDC.

#158 fabr68

fabr68
  • Member

  • 3,963 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 17 September 2012 - 17:22

That's interesting. I am not a fan of any constructor, but as a fan of drivers I am even more pissed off at Ferrari because their treament of drivers over the years has been completely and utterly destestable - abominable - disgusting.

Red Bull is just the champion being accused of cheating - that happens to all champs, including the red car as I am sure you recall. But not all constructors treat their drivers - champions, even their own champions - their own multi-World Champions - the way Ferrari does. It is unbelievable to me that any driver would even consider driving for them. I suppose they figure it won't happen to them. But it will. Next up: Massa then Alonso...

So I think Vettel should avoid the place altogether - but he won't, he loves Ferrari. All I can do is remain a fan through it all as I did for Alain and Kimi. I just hope I don't have to go through yet ANOTHER sabbatical.

Well one thing is for sure that if Vettel goes to Ferrari to join Alonso and if in a given weekend Vettel breaks his new wing, Ferrari wont give him Alonso's.

:smoking:

#159 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 17 September 2012 - 17:25

Alonso outqualified Grosjean by a massive number.

Massa outscored Räikkönen.

Räikkönen is outqualified by Grosjean...

Come on... I know Kimi fans are usually bitter but some of you are just outrageous. To say that Massa doesn't belong in F1? Seriously... the guy won 11 Grands Prix. I know that Grosjean is more experienced in terms of F1 mileage now so is arguably faster, but Alonso proved the decision to leave Kimi out was the correct one. Vettel would have a major challenge on his hands and if he didn't go he'd chicken out in my opinion. I want the two best drivers possible at Ferrari, so I'm desperate to get Vettel there to see what he could do.

Okay, you want to make this about Kimi.

Alonso outqualified Grosjean? What in the world are we talking about qualifying? Most people seem to think that 2009 Grosjean was very different to the Grosjean we know now. But if you want to go down that route, it needs no argument. Everyone who sees the argument can decide for themselves.

Massa outscored Raikkonen! Where did I deny it? My comment on Massa was purely objective based on his results from 2010 to 2012. He is an abysmal and the most-underperforming driver in F1. His driving standards have not been what was seen in 2006-2009. So, compared to the present Massa, there are 'n' number of drivers who are better than him.

Raikkonen is outqualified by Grosjean. Who cares? The chequered falls after 70-odd laps on Sunday. Raikkonen has invariably been better then.

As far decision to leave Kimi being the correct one: We are not talking about letting two men run and see who came first or who scored more in an exam to see who was better. If you say Alonso is a better driver than Kimi, I respect your opinion (even if I believe otherwise) and have no problems with that. If you want to talk about correctness, I certainly don't think the way Ferrari treated the Kimi situation in sacking him was right. If you think some other driver is a better driver, hire him in first place, or wait for one's contract to end. The way they behaved was not correct.

I don't think Vettel is listening to you, and is not interested in your personal interest on how it would be great to pit Vettel against Alonso and your prophecy that Alonso would come out better, and that the onus is on Vettel to prove you wrong, otherwise it means he chickened out. You are a nobody to Vettel. Vettel has as many championship as Alonso and 5 years younger. If this trend continues for another couple of years, people will soon forget about Alonso, and Vettel would be the everyone would rate.

Given that you just recently posted on ignore and ignore list, you have made me also think about ignoring you. That was one of the worst quality post I have read on this forum. Happy supporting your team! Close your eyes.

Advertisement

#160 jeze

jeze
  • Member

  • 2,973 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 17 September 2012 - 18:35

Okay, you want to make this about Kimi.

Alonso outqualified Grosjean? What in the world are we talking about qualifying? Most people seem to think that 2009 Grosjean was very different to the Grosjean we know now. But if you want to go down that route, it needs no argument. Everyone who sees the argument can decide for themselves.

Massa outscored Raikkonen! Where did I deny it? My comment on Massa was purely objective based on his results from 2010 to 2012. He is an abysmal and the most-underperforming driver in F1. His driving standards have not been what was seen in 2006-2009. So, compared to the present Massa, there are 'n' number of drivers who are better than him.

Raikkonen is outqualified by Grosjean. Who cares? The chequered falls after 70-odd laps on Sunday. Raikkonen has invariably been better then.

As far decision to leave Kimi being the correct one: We are not talking about letting two men run and see who came first or who scored more in an exam to see who was better. If you say Alonso is a better driver than Kimi, I respect your opinion (even if I believe otherwise) and have no problems with that. If you want to talk about correctness, I certainly don't think the way Ferrari treated the Kimi situation in sacking him was right. If you think some other driver is a better driver, hire him in first place, or wait for one's contract to end. The way they behaved was not correct.

I don't think Vettel is listening to you, and is not interested in your personal interest on how it would be great to pit Vettel against Alonso and your prophecy that Alonso would come out better, and that the onus is on Vettel to prove you wrong, otherwise it means he chickened out. You are a nobody to Vettel. Vettel has as many championship as Alonso and 5 years younger. If this trend continues for another couple of years, people will soon forget about Alonso, and Vettel would be the everyone would rate.

Given that you just recently posted on ignore and ignore list, you have made me also think about ignoring you. That was one of the worst quality post I have read on this forum. Happy supporting your team! Close your eyes.


Kimi fan in chickening out of debate when faced with facts-shocker. :stoned:

The one thing that would really destroy me this season was if Kimi would win the title in that rocketship that even gets Grosjean to the podium regularly. Not because I dislike Kimi, but because of those stupid people saying that a driver beaten by Massa at Ferrari is better than Alonso would walk the planet with moral high ground. Fernando has to stop that from happening, my god.

Trust me I was as happy as anybody when Kimi won the title. But to say that Fernando kicked him out because he refused equal #1 is nonsense, which many Kimi fans seem to think. Ferrari wanted Massa because Massa was perceived as a better driver at the time unless you were a member of the Kimi fan club.

Alonso-Massa was intended as a dream team but only Fernando managed to deliver the dream in high-fuel F1 with poor downforce on the Ferrari. Now that's why Ferrari want Vettel - since the Alonso-Massa combination didn't see two race win contenders as was the plan. Kimi is better suited to current day-F1 than Massa but over one lap he's nothing special ever since his McLaren days.

End conclusion: Ferrari screwed up that hired Kimi over Fernando back before the 2007 season, but also screwed up because they didn't sense how poor Felipe would be suited to high-fuel F1. Alonso/Räikkönen would've been the correct team choice for the 2010 season in hindsight.

Edited by jeze, 17 September 2012 - 18:43.


#161 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,745 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 17 September 2012 - 18:38

Early decision to back Alonso? It was the 11th race of the season! Thats not early, they gave Massa so much time. And if Alonso had so much negotiating power in combination with the teams history, why wasn't he backed from race 1??


Again, I don't want to go in circles anymore. For me it was early and I have given my reasons, for you it's normal and correct. But other than that, the only objective way of measuring fairness in this case would be to wait until the 2nd driver had no mathematical chance. Let's just say that any top driver, like Vettel who this discussion is about, would have thought that was unfair and would have protested a lot more than Massa did. And yeah, I think it's fair to say, and there is proof in interviews, that it is a precedent that drivers take into account when considering Ferrari nowadays. I also believe it's realistic to say that, at this moment, Ferrari is the team with the clearest position on No. 1 and No. 2 drivers vs. the other top teams.
Alonso wasn't backed from race 1 simply because they wanted to see how it went. If Massa had turned out to be better than FA, they would have shot themselves in the foot. But since what they thought would happen (FA beating FM) happened, everything went according to expectations. It was in that sense that I talked about self fulfilling prophecies. I believe there was a big sigh of relief by Ferrari themselves and FA and Santander when that happened.



You are not saying anything, other than baseless assertions. Massa is totally free to compete with Alonso but the problem is he is always behind him, and since Germany 2010, has only beaten him in 1 race, which has absolutely nothing to do with team status, as you are trying to imply, and smear Alonso and the team. If they made Massa number 1 tomorrow, what do you think would change? He would suddenly start beating Alonso? Team leader status us directly performance rated so if Vettel is as good as you and he thinks, he should not be scared of Ferrari and Alonso, although I think he is.


I am not trying to smear anybody here. I am trying to analyze a given situation by looking at possible explanations and giving my opinion on them. It's called arguing and I believe that's why forums like this one exist. You on the other hand, are not discussing my points, but trying to attack the messenger, which I believe is a faulty way of arguing.

We don't have concrete proof about an express No. 1, No. 2 status at Ferrari (we don't have a copy of the contracts), we don't have declarations from Massa or other team members (which could also be said to be a lie if there were). Are you saying that, until we have those rock solid proofs, we are not allowed to argue about this? I think we can argue based on what we have: observations of what has happened so far, opinions of other drivers and people in F1, educated guesses, among others. If you want to discuss any of those, you are welcome to.


#162 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,333 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 September 2012 - 19:50

Kimi fan in chickening out of debate when faced with facts-shocker. :stoned:

The one thing that would really destroy me this season was if Kimi would win the title in that rocketship that even gets Grosjean to the podium regularly. Not because I dislike Kimi, but because of those stupid people saying that a driver beaten by Massa at Ferrari is better than Alonso would walk the planet with moral high ground. Fernando has to stop that from happening, my god.

Trust me I was as happy as anybody when Kimi won the title. But to say that Fernando kicked him out because he refused equal #1 is nonsense, which many Kimi fans seem to think. Ferrari wanted Massa because Massa was perceived as a better driver at the time unless you were a member of the Kimi fan club.

Alonso-Massa was intended as a dream team but only Fernando managed to deliver the dream in high-fuel F1 with poor downforce on the Ferrari. Now that's why Ferrari want Vettel - since the Alonso-Massa combination didn't see two race win contenders as was the plan. Kimi is better suited to current day-F1 than Massa but over one lap he's nothing special ever since his McLaren days.

End conclusion: Ferrari screwed up that hired Kimi over Fernando back before the 2007 season, but also screwed up because they didn't sense how poor Felipe would be suited to high-fuel F1. Alonso/Räikkönen would've been the correct team choice for the 2010 season in hindsight.


To me, the point is that Alonso hasn't been anything special at all at Ferrari - he has not produced anything and has set no standards. In fact, it is Raikkonen that has set the Ferrari standard over a simliar period post MSC, which Alonso has failed to live up to, unable to bring home the WCC with Massa or the WDC on his own. He has not managed to score either championship for Ferrari.

Vettel could easily do that in the two and a half seasons it took Alonso to accomplish it, whereas mimicking Raikkonen might be more difficult, but still feasible. To me, that is not the issue. The real issue is that Vettel doesn't want to deal with any situation in which another driver (i.e., Alonso) has guaranteed (contractual) #1 status. Who would? It makes no sense. And it does not matter how many Ferrari or Alonso fans declare that he does not have contractual #1 status at Ferrari - the person that has to be convinced about that is Vettel or he won't go. Call it fear if you like - I call it wisdom.



Edited by bourbon, 17 September 2012 - 20:09.


#163 rijole1

rijole1
  • Member

  • 631 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 17 September 2012 - 19:57

To me, the point is that Alonso hasn't been anything special at all at Ferrari - he has not produced anything and has set no standards. In fact, it is Raikkonen that has set the Ferrari standard over a simliar period post MSC, which Alonso has failed to live up to, unable to bring home the WCC with Massa or the WDC on his own. He has not managed to score either championship for Ferrari.

Vettel could easily do that in the two and a half seasons it took Alonso to accomplish it, whereas mimicking Raikkonen might be more difficult, but still feasible. To me, that is not the issue. The real issue is that Vettel doesn't want to deal with any situation in which another driver (i.e., Alonso) has guaranteed (contractual) #1 status. Who would? It makes no sense. And it does not matter how many Ferrari or Alonso fans declare that he does not have contractual #1 status at Ferrari - the person that has to be convinced about that is Vettel or he won't go. Call it fear if you like - I call it wisdom.


:up:

Nice summary.
Can't do anything but agree.

#164 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,253 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 17 September 2012 - 20:00

To me, the point is that Alonso hasn't been anything special at all at Ferrari - he has not produced anything and has set no standards. In fact, it is Raikkonen that has set the Ferrari standard over a simliar period post MSC, which Alonso has failed to live up to, unable to bring home the WCC with Massa or the WDC on his own. He has not managed to score either championship for Ferrari.

Vettel could easily do that in the two and a half seasons it took Alonso to accomplish it, whereas mimicking Raikkonen might be more difficult, but still feasible. To me, that is not the issue. The real issue is that Vettel doesn't want to deal with any situation in which another driver (i.e., Alonso) has guaranteed (contractual) #1 status. Who would? It makes no sense. And it does not matter how many Ferrari or Alonso fans declare that he does not have contractual #1 status at Ferrari - the person that has to be convinced about that is Vettel or he won't go. Call it fear if you like - I call it wisdom.


Vettel is now in a situation where he is his teams lead driver, not out-and-out #1 but lead driver in that generally, he gets higher results than Webber (not all the time, nor even the vast majority). He's comfortable with the team, he's fine with Webber, after all the Webber/Vettel pairing has seen 2 WDCs for Vettel and 2 WCCs.
It's hard enough going to Ferrari and fighting Alonso on an even keel, harder still if he is new to the team and is having to build a relationship with engineers/mechanics and hard beyond belief if he is not on an equal footing, so Bourbon, i see sense in your wisdom part.

#165 Mandzipop

Mandzipop
  • RC Forum Host

  • 4,135 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 17 September 2012 - 21:24

To me, the point is that Alonso hasn't been anything special at all at Ferrari - he has not produced anything and has set no standards. In fact, it is Raikkonen that has set the Ferrari standard over a simliar period post MSC, which Alonso has failed to live up to, unable to bring home the WCC with Massa or the WDC on his own. He has not managed to score either championship for Ferrari.

Vettel could easily do that in the two and a half seasons it took Alonso to accomplish it, whereas mimicking Raikkonen might be more difficult, but still feasible. To me, that is not the issue. The real issue is that Vettel doesn't want to deal with any situation in which another driver (i.e., Alonso) has guaranteed (contractual) #1 status. Who would? It makes no sense. And it does not matter how many Ferrari or Alonso fans declare that he does not have contractual #1 status at Ferrari - the person that has to be convinced about that is Vettel or he won't go. Call it fear if you like - I call it wisdom.


The bolded part I disagree with. That car isn't and hasn't been the quickest for large parts of any season that Alonso has driven it.

Plus since he joined Ferrari Massa has been allowed to beat him and there have been 3 teams in the mix. Alonso doesn't design the car. He can only give feedback. Massa also plays a part in that too. They have to work as a unit in that part.

I won't go into the 2007 discussion as it has been had on this forum too many times and this thread is about Seb to Ferrari not Kimi and Ferrari.

As a Ferrari fan, what I do know is that they are unlikely to bring in a double WDC to play a number 2 role to another driver. Seb has a bit more clout than most of the drivers on the grid. Be realistic, why would Ferrari want a double WDC and not offer parity to the other driver when they have offered it to another driver against their current double WDC who isn't a WDC?

If they want Seb, both him and Alonso are very likely to get parity. The difference would be when a driver would have to become a number 2 driver. Neither would do it until it is mathematical, not realistic unlike it is now when it is a realistic chance.

Seb and Alonso are both going to be Prima Dona's at Ferrari. If both accept the challenge, they obviously believe that they would be good enough to beat each other and if they do then there is less shame in losing out to another double WDC (or how many they both have at that point).

As a Ferrari fan (which most who know my posting history) know that I am genuinely a Ferrari fan, and it is also a well known fact (from those who read my posts) that I'm a huge Seb fan. I don't have any issue with it. It appears that a large number of Ferrari fans don't have an issue and would welcome Seb. Same with the Alonso fans. However, I have noticed that the trend of fans not wanting him to go to Ferrari are Seb fans. I don't understand that. Why would a Seb fan fear Alonso so much? If Seb is as good a driver as Seb fans think he is (myself included), why should we worry about him being teammates with Alonso?

I trust that the Ferrari management team would be very capable of managing the 2 drivers with massive ego's.

That is just my opinion.

#166 jeze

jeze
  • Member

  • 2,973 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 17 September 2012 - 21:26

I'd say it's 50/50 whether he goes to Ferrari now or later as a reply to joshb and bourbon. He will have a much higher salary but a tougher team mate at Ferrari - and those things will be key to his reasoning. Keeping in mind all the car problems he's had this season + the Hockenheim penalty he should've been around Alonso and certainly further ahead of Webber. But going up against Alonso in a Ferrari is a tough challenge for anybody, so I'd understand if he was cautious. But on the other hand it's a factory team that has tremendous track record on reliability on engines et cetera which is going to be beneficial under the new rules.

From a Ferrari fan's perspective I'd be gutted if he stayed where he was, since I'd love him at Ferrari. But from Vettel's perspective I can understand he looks at the thing both ways. It's pretty clear that Ferrari have let a spot open for him in case he decides to go there, they'd taken a punt on Pérez if not I'd say.

#167 Watkins74

Watkins74
  • Member

  • 5,717 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 September 2012 - 21:50

To me, the point is that Alonso hasn't been anything special at all at Ferrari - he has not produced anything and has set no standards. In fact, it is Raikkonen that has set the Ferrari standard over a simliar period post MSC, which Alonso has failed to live up to, unable to bring home the WCC with Massa or the WDC on his own. He has not managed to score either championship for Ferrari.

Vettel could easily do that in the two and a half seasons it took Alonso to accomplish it, whereas mimicking Raikkonen might be more difficult, but still feasible. To me, that is not the issue. The real issue is that Vettel doesn't want to deal with any situation in which another driver (i.e., Alonso) has guaranteed (contractual) #1 status. Who would? It makes no sense. And it does not matter how many Ferrari or Alonso fans declare that he does not have contractual #1 status at Ferrari - the person that has to be convinced about that is Vettel or he won't go. Call it fear if you like - I call it wisdom.

The entire first paragraph is comedy gold. Thank you.

#168 Zava

Zava
  • Member

  • 4,977 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 17 September 2012 - 22:34

@Mandzipop - most of the Seb fans are Kimi fans as well (myself included), and I'm pretty sure I can speak in the name of most, it is not about teaming up with Alonso (as long as he is offered equal status), it is that the Kimi-ferrari episode, the way they treated Kimi left a spike in us, despite the WDC. think about it, even himself admitted it (in one of his comeback interviews), that by the end of his ferrari stint, he was close to being fed up with F1 for life. look at him now, he is in the WDC hunt with lotus :) so in short, we wouldn't like if the same happened to Vettel, that's why we don't want him there.

#169 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,319 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 17 September 2012 - 22:51

To me, the point is that Alonso hasn't been anything special at all at Ferrari - he has not produced anything and has set no standards. In fact, it is Raikkonen that has set the Ferrari standard over a simliar period post MSC, which Alonso has failed to live up to, unable to bring home the WCC with Massa or the WDC on his own. He has not managed to score either championship for Ferrari.

Vettel could easily do that in the two and a half seasons it took Alonso to accomplish it, whereas mimicking Raikkonen might be more difficult, but still feasible. To me, that is not the issue. The real issue is that Vettel doesn't want to deal with any situation in which another driver (i.e., Alonso) has guaranteed (contractual) #1 status. Who would? It makes no sense. And it does not matter how many Ferrari or Alonso fans declare that he does not have contractual #1 status at Ferrari - the person that has to be convinced about that is Vettel or he won't go. Call it fear if you like - I call it wisdom.

Wow. Just wow. :lol:

#170 fabr68

fabr68
  • Member

  • 3,963 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 17 September 2012 - 23:42

@Mandzipop - most of the Seb fans are Kimi fans as well (myself included), and I'm pretty sure I can speak in the name of most, it is not about teaming up with Alonso (as long as he is offered equal status), it is that the Kimi-ferrari episode, the way they treated Kimi left a spike in us, despite the WDC. think about it, even himself admitted it (in one of his comeback interviews), that by the end of his ferrari stint, he was close to being fed up with F1 for life. look at him now, he is in the WDC hunt with lotus :) so in short, we wouldn't like if the same happened to Vettel, that's why we don't want him there.


Sorry, but it is unfair to blame Ferrari for Raikkonen's fallout with F1. Since 2008 Kimi was saying he was fed up with the Formula 1 lifestyle. He started to take Rally on the side from his Ferrari no 1 role which must have been a huge turn-down for a team like Ferrari, where their lead driver plays a big role on setting the path for the team's direction. Raikkonen also had an opportunity to stay in F1 with Mclaren but he turned it down. Instead he took a huge payout from Ferrari to go drive Rally. This is totally fine, but to blame Ferrari for Kimi's boredom and lack of enthusiam for Formula 1 is wrong. Specially when in all interviews Kimi has only said positive things about his period there.

Vettel is not Raikkonen, so you can't say the outcome at Ferrari would be the same. Ferrari would be able to manage Alonso and Vettel under the same roof. The real question is if Sebastian is ready to leave Red Bull, Newey and the "equal" status he holds against Webber.

Edited by fabr68, 17 September 2012 - 23:48.


#171 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,765 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 17 September 2012 - 23:47

To me, the point is that Alonso hasn't been anything special at all at Ferrari - he has not produced anything and has set no standards. In fact, it is Raikkonen that has set the Ferrari standard over a simliar period post MSC, which Alonso has failed to live up to, unable to bring home the WCC with Massa or the WDC on his own. He has not managed to score either championship for Ferrari.


are you trolling or what ? . you know the car has been the problem don't you?
Or are you suggesting that Kimi was also nothing special prior to 2007 and nothing special since..



...and this is the best example of how a poster manages to lose complete credibility in one single post.

Edited by discover23, 17 September 2012 - 23:49.


#172 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,333 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 00:22

The bolded part I disagree with. That car isn't and hasn't been the quickest for large parts of any season that Alonso has driven it.


Okay, but I was not speaking about the quality of the car. You have perhaps misunderstood the context of my statement and have gone on to discuss this new idea regarding how Alonso drove the car. That wasn't my point. I did state the context in which I was speaking: Alonso has obtained no World Driver's Championships or World Constructor's Championships (with Massa).

Alonso during his time at Ferrari so far has earned zero - none. There may be a myriad of reasons for it, but that is not the point. The point is that he hasn't set any standards because he hasn't achieved any of the primary goals in F1 for top teams - winning a championship. Thus, if he quit F1 tomorrow, Vettel would be able to accomplish exactly what he has in that regard in the same amount of time: Nothing.

Did Alonso drive well for Ferrari? Maybe so, but it has no bearing on the things that matter most to Ferrari. Driving well doesn't add cups to the shelf; it doesn't allow Alonso's picture to be included on the wall at Ferrari World as a Ferrari Champion for Sponsors to throw money at, nor does it put any constructor champ money in Ferrari's pocket. My point was that if you used that standard and applied it to Vettel when he arrives at Ferrari, he could easily achieve what Alonso has achieved in terms of WDC and WCC so far. But neither Vettel or Alonso may be able to match what previous Ferrari champions have achieved, including the one that was discussed. Only time will tell.

If past Ferrari champions are going to enter into the conversation, then we have to acknowledge the facts; Alonso is not a Ferrari champion yet, in any regard - Vettel either - and so they have big shoes to fill, not just beating one another. The intrateam battle is meaningless in comparison to the true goal of these drivers - winning championships, imo.

Plus since he joined Ferrari Massa has been allowed to beat him and there have been 3 teams in the mix. Alonso doesn't design the car. He can only give feedback. Massa also plays a part in that too. They have to work as a unit in that part.

I won't go into the 2007 discussion as it has been had on this forum too many times and this thread is about Seb to Ferrari not Kimi and Ferrari.

As a Ferrari fan, what I do know is that they are unlikely to bring in a double WDC to play a number 2 role to another driver. Seb has a bit more clout than most of the drivers on the grid. Be realistic, why would Ferrari want a double WDC and not offer parity to the other driver when they have offered it to another driver against their current double WDC who isn't a WDC?

If they want Seb, both him and Alonso are very likely to get parity. The difference would be when a driver would have to become a number 2 driver. Neither would do it until it is mathematical, not realistic unlike it is now when it is a realistic chance.


Well this is a different topic than that which I was discussing. I have never argued against any of this. I have stated in a previous post that Ferrari would not bring Vettel in to play lapdog to Alonso - but I have also said that Vettel won't go to Ferrari in that role anyway. So I am not sure why you are responding to my post with these statements - but perhaps you are just making new points. I think we agree on the points you have made (although I am firmly against the manner in which they carry out their #1 policy - but I don't think they would carry it out unfairly against Vettel, which is the point).

Seb and Alonso are both going to be Prima Dona's at Ferrari.


That is a big assumption, imo. I would not be able to agree with your opinion on that. Vettel is still too young to gauge the man he will ultimately become, imo. Somethings will remain the same, but some things are bound to change.

If both accept the challenge, they obviously believe that they would be good enough to beat each other and if they do then there is less shame in losing out to another double WDC (or how many they both have at that point).

As a Ferrari fan (which most who know my posting history) know that I am genuinely a Ferrari fan, and it is also a well known fact (from those who read my posts) that I'm a huge Seb fan. I don't have any issue with it. It appears that a large number of Ferrari fans don't have an issue and would welcome Seb. Same with the Alonso fans. However, I have noticed that the trend of fans not wanting him to go to Ferrari are Seb fans. I don't understand that. Why would a Seb fan fear Alonso so much? If Seb is as good a driver as Seb fans think he is (myself included), why should we worry about him being teammates with Alonso?


Perhaps you do not have a problem with the Ferrari #1 policy. I do.

I don't think Ferrari would be unfair to Seb from the start, but Ferrari would be unfair to the driver left behind around the midpoint in any case - which could be either Alonso or Vettel. I would hate it if it were Alonso left in the dust too.

I detest that policy - do not like it at all. They call off the chase WAY too soon and try to pretend it is 'too late' and 'all over' for the other driver, even though mathematically it isn't (IMO).

I dislike Ferrari's policy in that regard and I also hate the way they treat their drivers. I don't mean to offend fans - it isn't the fans' fault. But I was deeply offended by their treatment of several drivers in the past, including two of my favs.

I trust that the Ferrari management team would be very capable of managing the 2 drivers with massive ego's. That is just my opinion.


I agree, I don't think this would be an issue at all.

Edited by bourbon, 18 September 2012 - 05:30.


#173 PoleMan

PoleMan
  • Member

  • 1,544 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:54

Did Alonso drive well for Ferrari? Maybe so, but it has no bearing on the things that matter most to Ferrari.


Bourbon, I read through your entire post, but figure I'll just dismantle this part. The desperation in your posts to not give Alonso an ounce of credit is really just a discredit to yourself.

I'm sure YOU are the expert on "things that matter most to Ferrari," because...well...because...OH WAIT?? Ferrari FIRED Kimi with a year to go on his contract because he was not driving up to the Scuderia's expectations. After 1 year with Fernando in the team, they extended his contract by 5 years! I think that tells you all you need to know about what Ferrari think of Alonso's value to the team. They expect many championships, and have hired the best driver on the grid to deliver them, which is why they have repeatedly said from LdM to Stefano, "If we don't win, it is the car...not Fernando."

Look it up! ;) They did not feel that way about the Kimster. Nice chap, but they went and hired a better driver who will deliver them more than just a solitary WDC. To win the WCC, you need the car. The gap between Massa and Alonso for 3 years shows most rational folks that it's the car that is lacking and that Fernando has literally driven out of his skin. Let's see how this year works out as far as the WDC goes! :D

To get back on topic, I think a Vettel Alonso pairing would be AWESOME! I hope it happens, and don't think either driver will be afraid of the other.

Edited by PoleMan, 18 September 2012 - 03:02.


#174 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,333 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 05:22

Bourbon, I read through your entire post, but figure I'll just dismantle this part. The desperation in your posts to not give Alonso an ounce of credit is really just a discredit to yourself.


What would you have me give Alonso credit for?

I'm sure YOU are the expert on "things that matter most to Ferrari," because...well...because...OH WAIT?? Ferrari FIRED Kimi with a year to go on his contract because he was not driving up to the Scuderia's expectations. After 1 year with Fernando in the team, they extended his contract by 5 years! I think that tells you all you need to know about what Ferrari think of Alonso's value to the team. They expect many championships, and have hired the best driver on the grid to deliver them, which is why they have repeatedly said from LdM to Stefano, "If we don't win, it is the car...not Fernando." Look it up! ;) They did not feel that way about the Kimster. Nice chap, but they went and hired a better driver who will deliver them more than just a solitary WDC. To win the WCC, you need the car. The gap between Massa and Alonso for 3 years shows most rational folks that it's the car that is lacking and that Fernando has literally driven out of his skin. Let's see how this year works out as far as the WDC goes! :D


Okay, but what does that have to do with Vettel going to Ferrari in 2014? My comments were relative to Vettel matching up to the Ferrari talent that went before him in terms of championship wins. If Alonso wins a championship by that time, then that will set another championship standard at Ferrari. Right now the Ferrari champions were all in the last decade and earlier, the latest being Raikkonen. Alonso now, and Vettel if he goes to Ferrari, will have to set their sights on championships, not on teammates. Beating one another is meaningless if you have no championships to show for it. The championship standard was set by Raikkonen and Schumacher in the last two decades and that is the goal for the current and future Ferrari drivers (as it is for all drivers in any team).

To get back on topic, I think a Vettel Alonso pairing would be AWESOME! I hope it happens, and don't think either driver will be afraid of the other.


We'll see what happens...

#175 FirstWatt

FirstWatt
  • Member

  • 357 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 05:57

Contrary to Alonso, Vettel didn't show the ability to win in a car which is clearly not the best car on the grid. This year does that show nicely.

Bourbon, you are mixing up drivers stength with car strength. Completely useless analysis.

#176 forixfan

forixfan
  • Member

  • 102 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:24

There's a whole thread about this so I am not going to go into it again. Let's just say that a lot of people believe it was unjustified, premature and unfair and others think it was justified and necessary. As said, an opinion on when such a decision is fair or unfair or timely or not is subjective. The only objective measure is a driver being mathematically out of the championship. In a way, the point in time the decision is taken to back only one driver for the WDC, gives a clue as to which policy a team has in this matter, if they are more interested in the WDC or WCC and which driver they favor (expressly or not). The differences in this matter between Ferrari and McLaren are very illustrative of this.


German Gp of 2008, Kovaleinen was Hamiltons team mate, still mathematically in world championship contention, yet had to let his team mate Hamilton past. It looks like Mclaren and Ferrari work the exact same way. Mclaren are actually worse because if you remember the 2009 Nurburgring Gp when Lewis was the only Mclaren driver to get the big upgrade despite both drivers being in world title contention mathematically. I do not recall such blatant favouritism at Ferrari.




#177 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:25

Contrary to Alonso, Vettel didn't show the ability to win in a car which is clearly not the best car on the grid. This year does that show nicely.

Bourbon, you are mixing up drivers stength with car strength. Completely useless analysis.


Your post represents a statement, which is quite often repeated around in here, but can you support it with an analysis of your own? I am personaly lost when Alonso is supposed to be consistently winning with a sub-par car, and/or without little bit of luck due to misfortunes of others. Just because Alonso's fans says so, shouldn't really count. If you tell me that current score sheet is a real indicator how "inferior" Vettel is this year, then you probably didn't bother to look under the surface deep enough.


#178 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:35

Alonso did nothing special at Ferrari, are you kidding me? He was in the fight for the WDC in 2011 and in 2012, although the car was medicore at best for large parts of the season. If you have not seen some special drives by Fernadon this year, you must be following a different sport. The guy is fantastic this year. Even if Lewis will win the WDC, as the McLaren is the way superior car, Alonso can not be balimed for not winning a title.

#179 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:41

I am hearing it all the time, just as I heard thousand times before that Vettel had the very best car on the grid last year, yet since when a thought process is sufficient and suitable substitute for proper analysis?

Advertisement

#180 forixfan

forixfan
  • Member

  • 102 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:52

Again, I don't want to go in circles anymore. For me it was early and I have given my reasons, for you it's normal and correct. But other than that, the only objective way of measuring fairness in this case would be to wait until the 2nd driver had no mathematical chance. Let's just say that any top driver, like Vettel who this discussion is about, would have thought that was unfair and would have protested a lot more than Massa did. And yeah, I think it's fair to say, and there is proof in interviews, that it is a precedent that drivers take into account when considering Ferrari nowadays. I also believe it's realistic to say that, at this moment, Ferrari is the team with the clearest position on No. 1 and No. 2 drivers vs. the other top teams.
Alonso wasn't backed from race 1 simply because they wanted to see how it went. If Massa had turned out to be better than FA, they would have shot themselves in the foot. But since what they thought would happen (FA beating FM) happened, everything went according to expectations. It was in that sense that I talked about self fulfilling prophecies. I believe there was a big sigh of relief by Ferrari themselves and FA and Santander when that happened.



You are confusing biggest performance difference, with clearest no 1, no 2 position. It was clear Alonso was much better than Massa after the first few races, yet Ferrari waited until the 11th race of the season which correlated with my argument.

I am not trying to smear anybody here. I am trying to analyze a given situation by looking at possible explanations and giving my opinion on them. It's called arguing and I believe that's why forums like this one exist. You on the other hand, are not discussing my points, but trying to attack the messenger, which I believe is a faulty way of arguing.

We don't have concrete proof about an express No. 1, No. 2 status at Ferrari (we don't have a copy of the contracts), we don't have declarations from Massa or other team members (which could also be said to be a lie if there were). Are you saying that, until we have those rock solid proofs, we are not allowed to argue about this? I think we can argue based on what we have: observations of what has happened so far, opinions of other drivers and people in F1, educated guesses, among others. If you want to discuss any of those, you are welcome to.


Arguing is fine as long as its based on some some credible reasoning, but you seem to be just arguing what you want to believe rather than actually basing it off anything credible, which is why I keep asking you to explain your conclusions. So far your points seem to be that Alonso has an unfair advantage because he has so much influence, yet everything suggests the opposite, and that both drivers have equal opportunity, other in the rare circumstance Massa is leading Alonso and out of title contention. Do you agree with that? And do you agree that Number 1 status at Ferrari is determined by world championship contention, regardless if you think its a little too subjective? I have listed a number of races where Massa has fought hard with Alonso post Germany 2010, which directly contradicts your assertion is now de facto number 1. China 2011, Massa outpaced and beat Alonso, and Spa 2011, where they went wheel to wheel and Alonso made a very risky dive into a corner to overtake against Massa who defended very hard. Both these examples prove that Massa is allowed to fight and beat Alonso when he is quick enough, and in title contention, or both are out of it, agree?

#181 DarkknightRises

DarkknightRises
  • Member

  • 329 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:14

im amuse alonso fans refused to admit the clear cut no.1 and no.2 situation in ferrari now since alonso join~!! Wonder if you guys watched any fps, it was massa that often out there testing new parts for the team!!

as long as Alonso is in the team, ferrari will not win another constructor titles!

And vettel would nt be partnering alonso, ferrari is keeping vettel at shelf in order to replace alonso in 5 years time~!!

It was no coincidence the moment alonso extend his deal, santander also renew their sponsorship deal with ferrari!!

Reason why flavio push for Massa to stay, Bernie told vettel to stay in rbr etc Unlike us armchair fans, those big guy knew the exact situation within ferrari!!

Edited by DarkknightRises, 18 September 2012 - 07:24.


#182 forixfan

forixfan
  • Member

  • 102 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:24

im amuse alonso fans refused to admit the clear cut no.1 and no.2 situation in ferrari now since alonso join~!! Wonder if you guys watched any fps, it was massa that often out there testing new parts for the team!!


And when Alonso tests new parts, its called number 1 status because Massa is not allowed to have the new parts!!

#183 FirstWatt

FirstWatt
  • Member

  • 357 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:24

Your post represents a statement, which is quite often repeated around in here, but can you support it with an analysis of your own? I am personaly lost when Alonso is supposed to be consistently winning with a sub-par car, and/or without little bit of luck due to misfortunes of others. Just because Alonso's fans says so, shouldn't really count. If you tell me that current score sheet is a real indicator how "inferior" Vettel is this year, then you probably didn't bother to look under the surface deep enough.

You missed my point.
- I said that Vettel didn't show the ability to win with "not the best car", he had the possibility this year to do so. This doesn't imply that he's really not able, but he did not show it.
- I did not say that Alonos does that consistently, but he has shown that he's able to do so.

Analysis of my own, as you asked for:
Vettel NEVER won starting from outside the first three. (Same as Massa btw.)
Alonso (6 without Singapore), Hamilton (2) Kimi (6) did that.

I do NOT say that this statistic does tell these drivers were able to win without the fastest car, as they could have qualified poorly despite having the fastest car.
But it shows that Vettel never demonstrated it.

Another analysis:
Vettel managed to get on the podium 4 times when starting outside of the podium. Twice from 4th, once from 6th, once from 8th.
Alonso 34 times, worst starting place from which he managed it was 16th
Kimi 32 times, worst starting place 18th
Hamilton 12 times, worst place 17th.
Massa 3 times, worst start place 8th.

It is another indicator that the racecraft of Vettel is possibly not at the level of Alonso, Kimi or Hamilton.

Edited by FirstWatt, 18 September 2012 - 07:27.


#184 rdebourbon

rdebourbon
  • Member

  • 1,353 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:54

You missed my point.

...

It is another indicator that the racecraft of Vettel is possibly not at the level of Alonso, Kimi or Hamilton.


I hate to be the guy to point this out, but without context and similar conditions its impossible to compare drivers.. In the few years Vettel has been in a car capable of winning he has shown an incredible talent to do so.. This period is also largely the same period where the overall performance from the front of the grid to the back of the actual midfield (leaving aside the 3 back marker teams) has been the closest ever.. Taking into account the aero regs, that would normally mean less overtaking - and you can see this with some drivers who consistently fail to improve by more than a couple of places...

Trying to draw direct comparisons between this period of F1, and previous periods is next to useless - instead it would be better to collate the data across the leading drivers from the same period - but even then your comparisons will be skewed by the presence of a dominant design...


#185 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,270 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:00

So we have to take account of the context when it's suit your agenda...

#186 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:00

You can more easily reach a podium from a bad starting position, if you have a bad qualifying and a good car. Vettel had few bad qualifying sessions when he had a very good car. Alonso in Monza for example. 10th to 3rd was great, but without the problems in Q3, he probably would have put the car on pole and gone from 1st to 1st. So did he show racecraft because he had a prolbem with the car? Was Vettel´s reacecraft not impressive in Spa?

#187 forixfan

forixfan
  • Member

  • 102 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:05

I hate to be the guy to point this out, but without context and similar conditions its impossible to compare drivers.. In the few years Vettel has been in a car capable of winning he has shown an incredible talent to do so.. This period is also largely the same period where the overall performance from the front of the grid to the back of the actual midfield (leaving aside the 3 back marker teams) has been the closest ever.. Taking into account the aero regs, that would normally mean less overtaking - and you can see this with some drivers who consistently fail to improve by more than a couple of places...

Trying to draw direct comparisons between this period of F1, and previous periods is next to useless - instead it would be better to collate the data across the leading drivers from the same period - but even then your comparisons will be skewed by the presence of a dominant design...


he was drawing conclusions between all the periods, and Vettel is not flattered in any of them.

#188 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,333 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:20

im amuse alonso fans refused to admit the clear cut no.1 and no.2 situation in ferrari now since alonso join~!! Wonder if you guys watched any fps, it was massa that often out there testing new parts for the team!!

as long as Alonso is in the team, ferrari will not win another constructor titles!

And vettel would nt be partnering alonso, ferrari is keeping vettel at shelf in order to replace alonso in 5 years time~!!

It was no coincidence the moment alonso extend his deal, santander also renew their sponsorship deal with ferrari!!

Reason why flavio push for Massa to stay, Bernie told vettel to stay in rbr etc Unlike us armchair fans, those big guy knew the exact situation within ferrari!!


This. :up:

We can't predict the future and can't be 100% that all we hear is true, but this is how it appears to me as well.

Edited by bourbon, 18 September 2012 - 08:23.


#189 FirstWatt

FirstWatt
  • Member

  • 357 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:27

he was drawing conclusions between all the periods, and Vettel is not flattered in any of them.


Exactly.
Of course there are different eras. Though I'd say that in the years Vettel is competing, it's easier to overtake than in the 2003-2009 period.
Spa might be a good example of Vettels racecraft, and Monza of Alonsos.
BUT, according to this analysis, Vettel had the fastest race car in Spa. If we really want to take into account the context...and in the context, you very quickly start telling about "luck" and "bad luck", also depending on the view.

I'll still stay with my opinion based on my analysis that Vettel did not show same ability as Alonso (or Kimi, Hamilton, for that matter) to win with cars wich are not the best in the grid.

Edited by FirstWatt, 18 September 2012 - 08:27.


#190 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,253 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:55

You missed my point.
- I said that Vettel didn't show the ability to win with "not the best car", he had the possibility this year to do so. This doesn't imply that he's really not able, but he did not show it.
- I did not say that Alonos does that consistently, but he has shown that he's able to do so.

Analysis of my own, as you asked for:
Vettel NEVER won starting from outside the first three. (Same as Massa btw.)
Alonso (6 without Singapore), Hamilton (2) Kimi (6) did that.

I do NOT say that this statistic does tell these drivers were able to win without the fastest car, as they could have qualified poorly despite having the fastest car.
But it shows that Vettel never demonstrated it.

Another analysis:
Vettel managed to get on the podium 4 times when starting outside of the podium. Twice from 4th, once from 6th, once from 8th.
Alonso 34 times, worst starting place from which he managed it was 16th
Kimi 32 times, worst starting place 18th
Hamilton 12 times, worst place 17th.
Massa 3 times, worst start place 8th.

It is another indicator that the racecraft of Vettel is possibly not at the level of Alonso, Kimi or Hamilton.


Or that they are bad qualifiers....
Senna , Fangio, Ascari weren't any good then?

#191 FirstWatt

FirstWatt
  • Member

  • 357 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:10

Or that they are bad qualifiers....
Senna , Fangio, Ascari weren't any good then?

I clearly wrote:

I do NOT say that this statistic does tell these drivers were able to win without the fastest car, as they could have qualified poorly despite having the fastest car.


It is an indicator, not a proof, as I was asked for my own analysis.
Taking into account what I saw from Vettel, my analysis does support my view of him. Therefore, it's OK for me, and it's my opinion.

You cannot take my analysis and apply it to drivers from 20+ years ago without analyzing deeper. Senna was on another planet in qualifying, look what he did to another great of all times, Prost.
As long as we do not see Vettel outqualify say Alonso, Kimi or Hamilton in the same car and in the same way Senna did, we will not know.

#192 slmk

slmk
  • Member

  • 4,398 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:18

Wow. Just wow. :lol:


He's entitled to his opinion. I don't see what's so wrong about it?

#193 Ncedi

Ncedi
  • Member

  • 264 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:39

This. :up:

We can't predict the future and can't be 100% that all we hear is true, but this is how it appears to me as well.


What a load of BS.

Now if Ferrari are handy capping Massa, why would they make it 0.500sec...logically, they would get him as close to Alonso as possible without him beating Alonso. Ferrari want to win BOTH championships...they would do that and be in contention/leading both championships. Or do you think Santander bring enough money to justify losing the WCC :wave: The fact is Alonso is number one because he has been whooping Massa's ass from the moment he arrived.

If Vettel joins, he will have to prove himself better than Alonso to get the upper hand when the championship reaches the crucial stages. They will have to fight it out, which no doubt would be good for the WCC.

This rubbish of sponsorship and Alonso fearing, well, pretty much every driver on the grid is exacty that. Rubbish!

And sorry to digress but to address your earlier point Bourbon, how can Alonso win the WDC and help win the WCC without the car being a factor? You cannot have a go at his driving not bringing results when the decisive factor in bringing those prizes is a good car.

As much as I don't like saying it but people will always use this Alonso's team as an excuse. Either for their driver not to go to the team (out of fear I assume) or for when their driver starts getting a whooping.

#194 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,319 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:35

He's entitled to his opinion. I don't see what's so wrong about it?

I never said he wasn't.

Just dont go believing that all people's opinions are equally sane.

Edited by Seanspeed, 18 September 2012 - 11:36.


#195 sailor

sailor
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:04

Bourbon, I read through your entire post, but figure I'll just dismantle this part. The desperation in your posts to not give Alonso an ounce of credit is really just a discredit to yourself.

I'm sure YOU are the expert on "things that matter most to Ferrari," because...well...because...OH WAIT?? Ferrari FIRED Kimi with a year to go on his contract because he was not driving up to the Scuderia's expectations. After 1 year with Fernando in the team, they extended his contract by 5 years! I think that tells you all you need to know about what Ferrari think of Alonso's value to the team. They expect many championships, and have hired the best driver on the grid to deliver them, which is why they have repeatedly said from LdM to Stefano, "If we don't win, it is the car...not Fernando."

Look it up! ;) They did not feel that way about the Kimster. Nice chap, but they went and hired a better driver who will deliver them more than just a solitary WDC. To win the WCC, you need the car. The gap between Massa and Alonso for 3 years shows most rational folks that it's the car that is lacking and that Fernando has literally driven out of his skin. Let's see how this year works out as far as the WDC goes! :D

To get back on topic, I think a Vettel Alonso pairing would be AWESOME! I hope it happens, and don't think either driver will be afraid of the other.


Thats a bit of a stretch .

Alonso has driven well but I havent seen the kind of drive which can be classified as an ATG - so spare me as well if I dont understand the hype.

All the wins in the "supposed" dog of a car have come due to other drivers retiring - sometimes multiple drivers retiring. Other wins have come where the car had the capability to win anyway.

I can concede that Kimi may have driven poorly in comparison to Massa if you are decided on using Massa as a benchmark ignoring other ancillary factors -
but comparing Nando to Kimi is not the point. The point is what exactly has Alonso done to justify the hype except beating Massa

3 years on there is no title - Ok the car was bad- but lets look at it objectively
2010 he failed to capitalise on Vettel's mistakes and issues by some of very silly mistakes in the first half.
2011 - he was a non-factor anyway
2012 - He is leading but thanks to Vettel retiring twice & Macca messing up. Anyway 2012 is his best year at Ferrari so lets see if he can pull it off this time.

Edited by sailor, 18 September 2012 - 12:05.


#196 PoleMan

PoleMan
  • Member

  • 1,544 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:14

Your post represents a statement, which is quite often repeated around in here, but can you support it with an analysis of your own? I am personaly lost when Alonso is supposed to be consistently winning with a sub-par car, and/or without little bit of luck due to misfortunes of others. Just because Alonso's fans says so, shouldn't really count. If you tell me that current score sheet is a real indicator how "inferior" Vettel is this year, then you probably didn't bother to look under the surface deep enough.


Sigh. FirstWatt has provided you plenty of detailed analysis that shows the strengths of Alonso , Kimi, and to a lesser extent, Hamilton, compared to Sebastian. I do rate Vettel, but he HAS HAD dominant cars to show his talent. That's not just my view, it's the view of most people who cover F1 for a living, or have had successful driving careers in F1.

Here's another little bit of anecdotal data (It doesn't support your view, so I suspect you're likely to reject it). :lol: In 2010 Sebastian Vettel won his first WDC. Many strong drives and the like throughout the season to claim youngest WDC ever. Fantastic accomplishment! But do you recall was rated by his fellow F1 drivers and Team Principals as the BEST DRIVER that season? Shall I give you a hint?  ;)

#197 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:16

You missed my point.
- I said that Vettel didn't show the ability to win with "not the best car", he had the possibility this year to do so. This doesn't imply that he's really not able, but he did not show it.
- I did not say that Alonos does that consistently, but he has shown that he's able to do so.

Analysis of my own, as you asked for:
Vettel NEVER won starting from outside the first three. (Same as Massa btw.)
Alonso (6 without Singapore), Hamilton (2) Kimi (6) did that.

I do NOT say that this statistic does tell these drivers were able to win without the fastest car, as they could have qualified poorly despite having the fastest car.
But it shows that Vettel never demonstrated it.

Another analysis:
Vettel managed to get on the podium 4 times when starting outside of the podium. Twice from 4th, once from 6th, once from 8th.
Alonso 34 times, worst starting place from which he managed it was 16th
Kimi 32 times, worst starting place 18th
Hamilton 12 times, worst place 17th.
Massa 3 times, worst start place 8th.

It is another indicator that the racecraft of Vettel is possibly not at the level of Alonso, Kimi or Hamilton.

Well thanks, but I remain dumbfounded by never ending effort by certain posters, who always manage to develop a new criterion how to evaluate Vettel with predictable outcome.

#198 PoleMan

PoleMan
  • Member

  • 1,544 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:28

Thats a bit of a stretch .

Alonso has driven well but I havent seen the kind of drive which can be classified as an ATG - so spare me as well if I dont understand the hype.

All the wins in the "supposed" dog of a car have come due to other drivers retiring - sometimes multiple drivers retiring. Other wins have come where the car had the capability to win anyway.

I can concede that Kimi may have driven poorly in comparison to Massa if you are decided on using Massa as a benchmark ignoring other ancillary factors -
but comparing Nando to Kimi is not the point. The point is what exactly has Alonso done to justify the hype except beating Massa

3 years on there is no title - Ok the car was bad- but lets look at it objectively
2010 he failed to capitalise on Vettel's mistakes and issues by some of very silly mistakes in the first half.
2011 - he was a non-factor anyway
2012 - He is leading but thanks to Vettel retiring twice & Macca messing up. Anyway 2012 is his best year at Ferrari so lets see if he can pull it off this time.


As I just essentially said to Sakae, your issue is really with the opinions of people who make or made their livings from F1. If you are locked into believing that Alonso has been doing "nothing special" behind the wheel and only benefits from luck, there's not much more I can say to disabuse you of that notion. You just need to realize that yours, like Sakae's, is a minority view. If I'm forced to weigh up your, Sakae's and Bourbon's credentials and opinions versus F1 professionals...it will be a close call...but I'll go with the pros.

I'm weird like that! :kiss:

#199 forixfan

forixfan
  • Member

  • 102 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 13:01

Thats a bit of a stretch .

Alonso has driven well but I havent seen the kind of drive which can be classified as an ATG - so spare me as well if I dont understand the hype.

All the wins in the "supposed" dog of a car have come due to other drivers retiring - sometimes multiple drivers retiring. Other wins have come where the car had the capability to win anyway.



How do you define whether the car had a capability to win? every time Alonso wins? What about Malaysia when the car was 1 second off the pace in the dry and in the wet his team mate finished 18 fighting with Lotus's?

Advertisement

#200 BruisedLee

BruisedLee
  • Member

  • 100 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 13:06

3 years on there is no title - Ok the car was bad- but lets look at it objectively
2010 he failed to capitalise on Vettel's mistakes and issues by some of very silly mistakes in the first half.

Failed to capitalise is usually for people who hold some sort of advantage. The advantage that year was on Vettel's wheel, not on Alonso's, and he almost failed to capitalise on it. That would be a bit more logical that placing the burden on Alonso. More so when he arrived to the last race with more points than Vettel and only lost it by a strategic mistake from his team.

2011 - he was a non-factor anyway

Well, Alonso, everyone and everything that did not had a Red Bull label on it.

2012 - He is leading but thanks to Vettel retiring twice & Macca messing up. Anyway 2012 is his best year at Ferrari so lets see if he can pull it off this time.

So Alonso did nothing at all by himself. He just won a net of 33 positions thanks to 2 retirements and Macca messing up.

Yeah, that was an objective look...