Jump to content


Photo
* * - - - 9 votes

Vettel off to Ferrari in 2014?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1198 replies to this topic

Poll: Vettel off to Ferrari in 2014? (518 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you think Vettel is heading to Ferrari in 2014?

  1. Yes, he's going (162 votes [31.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.33%

  2. No, he's staying (196 votes [37.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.91%

  3. Not enough information to form an opinion either way (159 votes [30.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.75%

If he did move to Ferrar would it be the right choice?

  1. Yes (175 votes [33.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.85%

  2. No (259 votes [50.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.10%

  3. I don't have enough information to form an opinion either way (83 votes [16.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.05%

Vote

#201 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,023 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 18 September 2012 - 13:09

I think they're both great drivers and I'd love to see them together.

On neutral turf, my money would be on Alonso but I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out to be pretty even.

At Ferrari, my money would definitely be on Alonso.

Advertisement

#202 fabr68

fabr68
  • Member

  • 3,963 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 13:26

Thats a bit of a stretch .

Alonso has driven well but I havent seen the kind of drive which can be classified as an ATG - so spare me as well if I dont understand the hype.

All the wins in the "supposed" dog of a car [/b]have come due to other drivers retiring - sometimes multiple drivers retiring. Other wins have come where the car had the capability to win anyway.[/b]

I can concede that Kimi may have driven poorly in comparison to Massa if you are decided on using Massa as a benchmark ignoring other ancillary factors -
but comparing Nando to Kimi is not the point. The point is what exactly has Alonso done to justify the hype except beating Massa

3 years on there is no title - Ok the car was bad- but lets look at it objectively
2010 he failed to capitalise on Vettel's mistakes and issues by some of very silly mistakes in the firkst half.
2011 - he was a non-factor anyway
2012 - He is leading but thanks to Vettel retiring twice & Macca messing up. Anyway 2012 is his best year at Ferrari so lets see if he can pull it off this time.


We get it. Alonso only wins when others have bad luck or the car is so good it would win anyways.

Raikkonen won due to his shear ability as a driver. His car or others bad luck had norhing to do with this. Massa was a great driver but turned incompetitive after his accident. Groshjean was a lousy driver when paired to Alonso, now he is one of the all time greats.

Massa was never equal to Alonso. That is why finished ahead of him in the first races of 2010. When Massa led the WDC standings (yes he did !!!)

Another Vettel thread turned into a Raikkonen widows river of tears.

Edited by fabr68, 18 September 2012 - 14:11.


#203 sailor

sailor
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 13:58

How do you define whether the car had a capability to win? every time Alonso wins? What about Malaysia when the car was 1 second off the pace in the dry and in the wet his team mate finished 18 fighting with Lotus's?


We cant.
Given that logic , we cant even say that the McLaren is the best car now or RBR was the car to have the last 2 years?



#204 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 18 September 2012 - 14:02

Kimi fan in chickening out of debate when faced with facts-shocker. :stoned:

First, you brought in Kimi for no reason. Next I gave you an elaborate reply and did not say I was going to stay away from the debate. So you are wrong on all counts. I think you have let Kimi fans get under your skin too much. Otherwise you wouldn't generalize Kimi fans chickening out of debate when you are replying to me specifically. If you take a long hard look at it, you would realize how desperate and childish your comment is.

The one thing that would really destroy me this season was if Kimi would win the title in that rocketship that even gets Grosjean to the podium regularly. Not because I dislike Kimi, but because of those stupid people saying that a driver beaten by Massa at Ferrari is better than Alonso would walk the planet with moral high ground. Fernando has to stop that from happening, my god.

Kimi who was beaten by Massa who was beaten by Fisichella who was beaten by Kovalainen, blah blah. Get over it. The whole world can see Kimi is a better driver than Massa inspite of your constant Massa, the Kimi-beater cries.

Trust me I was as happy as anybody when Kimi won the title.

Given the way you are talking, I have no reason to trust. But going by the big leap of faith you are expecting from Kimi fans, I say 'Trust them you could not have been nearly as happy as Kimi fans when he won the title'.

But to say that Fernando kicked him out because he refused equal #1 is nonsense, which many Kimi fans seem to think. Ferrari wanted Massa because Massa was perceived as a better driver at the time unless you were a member of the Kimi fan club.

Alas we know who was right - LdM/SD tango or the Kimi fandom :smoking:

Ferrari screwed up that hired Kimi over Fernando back before the 2007 season, but also screwed up because they didn't sense how poor Felipe would be suited to high-fuel F1. Alonso/Räikkönen would've been the correct team choice for the 2010 season in hindsight.

Yeah, high fuel-F1 - that answers everything. If not for the high fuel F1, Massa-Alonso would have been the dream team! :stoned:


PS: Facts-shocker? You are making me laugh, man. :rotfl:

Edited by SpaMaster, 18 September 2012 - 14:48.


#205 FirstWatt

FirstWatt
  • Member

  • 357 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 14:45

Well thanks, but I remain dumbfounded by never ending effort by certain posters, who always manage to develop a new criterion how to evaluate Vettel with predictable outcome.

New criterion?
1. There was a poster (Bourbon i think) who managed to set the criterion "Alonso didn't win the WDC, so he isn't a good driver" without looking at the car he had. And saying that Vettel was better, because he managed to win.

2. I said that Vettel did not have the same ability to win with not the best car as Alonso has. Others too (the last i have heard it from was Kubica) say that Alonso in the actual car achieves more than the car would normally allow.

3. Someone pointed out that I was only stating something without backing it with my analysis (essentially saying I was parroting)

4. I showed an analysis who certainly has some statistical meaning wrt winning places from start to the finish line.

So I think I had dome my homework I was asked for.

Do you have a better criterion, in case you are not happy with this result? I'm all ears, you are free to "develop" new criterions showing that Alonso is a bad driver which has only luck and Vettel is something just one step below a racing god.

I'm dumbfounded how supporters of Vettel (or maybe Alonso-haters, would that be a better definition?) are debating, and, best of all, calling those who try to get some objective data "certain posters with never ending effort to develop new criterion".

Edited by FirstWatt, 18 September 2012 - 14:51.


#206 PoleMan

PoleMan
  • Member

  • 1,530 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 14:47

For those "experts" who continue to belittle Alonso's talent and achievements, here's the POV of some rank amateurs, courtesy of Kosmos:

QUOTE CARLOS SAINZ
You know Fernando Alonso quite well, how is he as a person?, and from driver to driver, is he the best in the world of F1?.

Fernando is much more normal than people think, usually has a lot of pressure around. But is a great person and in short distance he gains a lot (hard to translate). As a driver there is little doubt that, today, is the best in the world and in the history of Formula 1, to this day, he is already one of the best. I will not be surprised if he is recognized as the best in the history when he retires.




QUOTING ROBERT KUBICA
“It’s a very interesting championship,” the Pole told Italy’s Omnicorse.

“It’s difficult to read because the balance of power has been changing often, but there has been one driver who has made the difference with something other than the best car.

“Fernando (Alonso) showed from the first race that he has the edge over all the others, because he is maybe the only one able to make a difference even with an uncompetitive car.

“He’s the favourite,” said Kubica. “He’s out of this world and I don’t see any big rivals for him.

“Knowing F1, we can’t say that the season is decided already, but if there is no car that is much better than his, then I think Alonso is 80 per cent sure (to win),” added Kubica.



As I've already stated, Vettel and Alonso would be a partnership at Ferrari that I would LOVE to see. Same for Alonso/Hamilton II or Hamilton/Vettel. As fans, we're always looking to see the most accomplished and talented drivers competing against one another. They are the acknowledged 3 best (Perhaps Kimi knocks on the door), so I don't really get posters who think they have to denigrate driving talent that is so Bloomin' Obvious? :evil: Really only succeeds in undercutting your own credibility...assuming you have any left. :)

Edited by PoleMan, 18 September 2012 - 14:48.


#207 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • In the running for best OP of 2014

  • 3,215 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 18 September 2012 - 15:05

As I've already stated, Vettel and Alonso would be a partnership at Ferrari that I would LOVE to see. Same for Alonso/Hamilton II or Hamilton/Vettel. As fans, we're always looking to see the most accomplished and talented drivers competing against one another. They are the acknowledged 3 best (Perhaps Kimi knocks on the door), so I don't really get posters who think they have to denigrate driving talent that is so Bloomin' Obvious? :evil: Really only succeeds in undercutting your own credibility...assuming you have any left. :)

Because somewhere along the line, they misconstrue their own opinion as fact and are subsequently astonished when it turns out to be false. They're more concerned about being right than enjoying the sport, and to that, I say 'shame on them'.

And if anybody thinks they can objectively, factually, and conclusively separate the absolute individual abilities of a driver from his/her car in the world of Formula One... then they're a total psycho in need of a Prozac about the size of a handball. :smoking:

#208 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 18 September 2012 - 16:14

New criterion?
1. There was a poster (Bourbon i think) who managed to set the criterion "Alonso didn't win the WDC, so he isn't a good driver" without looking at the car he had. And saying that Vettel was better, because he managed to win.

2. I said that Vettel did not have the same ability to win with not the best car as Alonso has. Others too (the last i have heard it from was Kubica) say that Alonso in the actual car achieves more than the car would normally allow.

3. Someone pointed out that I was only stating something without backing it with my analysis (essentially saying I was parroting)

4. I showed an analysis who certainly has some statistical meaning wrt winning places from start to the finish line.

So I think I had dome my homework I was asked for.

Do you have a better criterion, in case you are not happy with this result? I'm all ears, you are free to "develop" new criterions showing that Alonso is a bad driver which has only luck and Vettel is something just one step below a racing god.

I'm dumbfounded how supporters of Vettel (or maybe Alonso-haters, would that be a better definition?) are debating, and, best of all, calling those who try to get some objective data "certain posters with never ending effort to develop new criterion".


To be fair to you I should clarify that Vettel has proven to me during his short career in F1 that he can race under any condition against anyone currently on the grid. I do not require actually any further "proof". I am quite certain that I have never promoted Vettel to diety, and he has his moments when some adjustments could be useful (he loves microphone and camera too much for my liking, but hey, no one is perfect).

To conclude this, I am not rating Alonso as high as many around do, perhaps including yourself, but that's our prerogative, isn't it?

#209 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:03

Oh God, the constant chattering of 'the car has an unknown speed, but lower than other cars, but Alonso can do more with it than others' ! Can we stop such abstract argument to argue that he is the best? Sentences like those are just an excuse for his not winning. What was wrong with his 2007 car? I remember the waving of hands at the Indianapolis straight. Was his 2010 car really that much worse than Vettel's Red Bull? Granted Vettel's car was fast, but was also very fragile, and broke down so many number of times? Didn't Alonso have 5 wins or something in his car? And, people are saying that car was not good enough? One could make a good case that the 2010 championship was lost because of the numerous mistakes Alonso made (the most among contenders that year). In 2010 his car's performance was definitely close to Vettel's considering everything, so bourbon has a point when he said Alonso has failed to win the championship after joining Ferrari.

What is so inferior in this year's car for that matter? What he did not have as speed in the car has been more than compensated by weather and the car characteristics. Yeah, the car was down on speed when the season began. But the season beginning did not last for 8 races, did it? It lasted only 3-4 races. One of those races was wet, and the Ferrari car has been mega in rain this season. In reality, the car did not have speed only for a handful of races. It is no different to Hamilton suffering numerous botched pit-stops, tyre punctures or Vettel's race terminating alternator failures couple of times. Did he win the 2005 and 2006 championships in inferior cars? Definitely not. So, let's stop these 'Alonso has been categorically proven that he can do more in an abstractly unknown uncompetitive car than any other driver'..

Edited by SpaMaster, 18 September 2012 - 18:07.


#210 jeze

jeze
  • Member

  • 2,973 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:12

Oh God, the constant chattering of 'the car has an unknown speed, but lower than other cars, but Alonso can do more with it than others' ! Can we stop such abstract argument to argue that he is the best? Sentences like those are just an excuse for his not winning. What was wrong with his 2007 car? I remember the waving of hands at the Indianapolis straight. Was his 2010 car really that much worse than Vettel's Red Bull? Granted Vettel's car was fast, but was also very fragile, and broke down so many number of times? Didn't Alonso have 5 wins or something in his car? And, people are saying that car was not good enough? One could make a good case that the 2010 championship was lost because of the numerous mistakes Alonso made (the most among contenders that year). In 2010 his car's performance was definitely close to Vettel's considering everything, so bourbon has a point when he said Alonso has failed to win the championship after joining Ferrari.

What is so inferior in this year's car for that matter? What he did not have as speed in the car has been more than compensated by weather and the car characteristics. Yeah, the car was down on speed when the season began. But the season beginning did not last for 8 races, did it? It lasted only 3-4 races. One of those races was wet, and the Ferrari car has been mega in rain this season. In reality, the car did not have speed only for a handful of races. It is no different to Hamilton suffering numerous botched pit-stops, tyre punctures or Vettel's race terminating alternator failures couple of times. Did he win the 2005 and 2006 championships in inferior cars? Definitely not. So, let's stop these 'Alonso has been categorically proven that he can do more in an abstractly unknown uncompetitive car than any other driver'..


2005 McLaren not superior to Renault on speed? :lol:
2010 Red Bull not superior to Ferrari on speed? :lol:

Some Kimi fans really hate Fernando.

Of course Vettel would do a much much better job than Massa at Ferrari, but don't be so sure he'd match Alonso over a full season. Fernando has really surprised me this season, when it started I thought we were looking at P5-P6 in the championship for him yet he's leading.

#211 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,225 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:18

Some Kimi fans really hate Fernando.

They hate that Alonso has come in and done what Kimi couldn't do, specifically.

Edited by Seanspeed, 18 September 2012 - 18:19.


#212 Cool Beans

Cool Beans
  • Member

  • 1,553 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:25

They hate that Alonso has come in and done what Kimi couldn't do, specifically.

Win the WDC for Ferrari?

#213 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,225 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:27

Win the WDC for Ferrari?

Be a team leader that was worth what they were paying him.

#214 Cool Beans

Cool Beans
  • Member

  • 1,553 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 18 September 2012 - 19:00

Be a team leader that was worth what they were paying him.

Ferrari won two constructors' championships with Kimi as their leader. 0 with Alonso, not even close. WCC is what brings money to the team so Kimi was the better investment. Unless you're talking about the sponsorship money Alonso brings to the team, in which case you are correct.

Edited by beancounter, 18 September 2012 - 19:01.


#215 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,544 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 18 September 2012 - 19:06

I know this thread has been hijacked but I just want to say one thing to those making the silly attemps to put Alonso down.

1. In 2010 Alonso was rated top driver by Team Managers and Drivers - Are they all Alonso fans?

2. Do you consider your opinion to be more valuable than the collective opinion of these two groups above? - if yes, on what grounds?

3. If earning a WDC in a team is the proper gauge to rate a drive's success in a particular team, would you agree that Lewis accomplished more than Kimi at Mclaren? , if yes, does that also mean that Kimi was "Nothing special" at Mclaren?

- Lewis 5.5 yrs = 1 WDC
- Kimi 5 yrs = 0 WDC.

Edited by discover23, 18 September 2012 - 23:27.


#216 Cool Beans

Cool Beans
  • Member

  • 1,553 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 18 September 2012 - 19:27

I know this thread has been hijacked but I just want to say one thing to those silly attemps to put Alonso down.

1. In 2010 Alonso was rated top driver by Team Managers and Drivers - Are they all Alonso fans?

2. Do you consider your opinion to be more valuable than the collective opinion of these two groups above? - if yes, on what grounds?

3. If earning a WDC in a team is the proper gauge to rate a drive's success in a particular team, would you agree that Lewis and Button accomplished more than Kimi at Mclaren? , if yes, does that also mean that Kimi was "Nothing special" at Mclaren?

- Button 2.5 yrs = 1 WDC
- Lewis 5.5 yrs = 1 WDC
- Kimi 5 yrs = 0 WDC.

I wasn't putting Alonso down. I was replying to a 'silly attempt' to put Kimi down, giving some perspective on what each driver has achieved in the team. Comparing Alonso and Kimi's pace to the Massa who has now become possibly the worst driver on the grid doesn't give a true picture of their relative achievements in the team.

So to answer your questions:
1. Alonso is undisputedly one of the fastest drivers of this generation
2. I haven't claimed anything of the sort.
3. Earning a wdc was a comment on Seanspeed's accusation that Alonso has now managed what Kimi never did in Ferrari. Beating the 2012 Massa is not an achievement, it's rather unavoidable for any driver that would get paired with Massa this season. SO that leaves us with the actual accomplishments with the team: WDC, WCC. One of the former, 2 of the latter with Kimi. 0 with Alonso, but you have beating the 2012 Massa. Those are the tangible achievements.
So what exactly has Alonso achieved with Ferrari that validates this statement 'They hate that Alonso has come in and done what Kimi couldn't do, specifically.' What exactly has he come in and done that 'Kimi couldn't do'?

Edited by beancounter, 18 September 2012 - 19:32.


#217 Sapphiresteel

Sapphiresteel
  • Member

  • 58 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 19:39

Be a team leader that was worth what they were paying him.


I thought that should be Domenicalli's job.

Kimi with Ferrari: WDC + 2xWCC

Alonso with Ferrari: -

#218 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,225 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 18 September 2012 - 19:42

Ferrari won two constructors' championships with Kimi as their leader. 0 with Alonso, not even close. WCC is what brings money to the team so Kimi was the better investment. Unless you're talking about the sponsorship money Alonso brings to the team, in which case you are correct.

Yea, we're not talking about how good the cars were in a particular year, but what the driver brings to the team. Its not like the two WCC's had anything to do with the F2007 and F2008 being exceptionally good cars or anything. That would just be totally inconvenient to your argument.  ;)

Ferrari would not have gotten rid of Kimi if they felt he was good value/investment. Live in denial all you like, though.



#219 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,101 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 19:54

New criterion?
1. There was a poster (Bourbon i think) who managed to set the criterion "Alonso didn't win the WDC, so he isn't a good driver" without looking at the car he had. And saying that Vettel was better, because he managed to win.


I did not say any of that. You need to provide direct quotes so that you do not misquote others.

Advertisement

#220 PoleMan

PoleMan
  • Member

  • 1,530 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 20:01

I thought that should be Domenicalli's job.

Kimi with Ferrari: WDC + 2xWCC

Alonso with Ferrari: -

You forgot to mention one other thing Kimi accomplished that Fernando didn't...a pink slip from Ferrari. :lol:

As they say in the movies, "It's just business. Nothing personal."

I am a fan of Kimi and his talent -- which is IMMENSE -- but the Scuderia felt his contributions were not sufficient to their needs and showed him the door, and brought in Alonso, who they believe will take them to the promised land. I know that many of Kimi's fans disagree, but that's what happened, and we'll see if Fernando can deliver. Close in 2010. Incredible string of podiums in 2011. 2012? Looking good so far! :clap:

Would very much welcome Vettel's arrival at Ferrari, as it would be GREAT for the WCC and I believe Alonso could dig even deeper and bring out even more talent from his vault. :up:


#221 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,729 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 20:02

You are confusing biggest performance difference, with clearest no 1, no 2 position. It was clear Alonso was much better than Massa after the first few races, yet Ferrari waited until the 11th race of the season which correlated with my argument.


It's the same again: would it not have been possible for Massa to be better in the 2nd half of the season? Your "it was clear" is not equal to mine or many other people's "it was clear".
My problem with those early TOs and decision to establish status is that Massa was not given enough chance or he was not given enough time. This could go on forever, but it seems to me, again given all the precedents, that they took that early decision or did not let Massa fight until he was mathematically out of it, because it suited them, it suited their expectations. The effect of this on Massa is debatable, but I argue it's possible that he might have changed his objectives from driving the best he can to fulfilling a contract.



Arguing is fine as long as its based on some some credible reasoning, but you seem to be just arguing what you want to believe rather than actually basing it off anything credible, which is why I keep asking you to explain your conclusions. So far your points seem to be that Alonso has an unfair advantage because he has so much influence, yet everything suggests the opposite, and that both drivers have equal opportunity, other in the rare circumstance Massa is leading Alonso and out of title contention. Do you agree with that? And do you agree that Number 1 status at Ferrari is determined by world championship contention, regardless if you think its a little too subjective? I have listed a number of races where Massa has fought hard with Alonso post Germany 2010, which directly contradicts your assertion is now de facto number 1. China 2011, Massa outpaced and beat Alonso, and Spa 2011, where they went wheel to wheel and Alonso made a very risky dive into a corner to overtake against Massa who defended very hard. Both these examples prove that Massa is allowed to fight and beat Alonso when he is quick enough, and in title contention, or both are out of it, agree?


2010's early decision to back Alonso I think is suspect.
Massa's amazing drop in performance also seems difficult to explain.
What SV and JB said in interviews about what they think is the current situation at Ferrari.
Ferrari's recent past in the MS years and similarity between the situation when MS and FA came to Ferrari.
Context of FA's past at McLaren: did not react well to rookie being given equal status and said as much and did not do well under pressure in many aspects.
Context of FA's signing with Ferrari: New sponsor, Spanish sponsor, Ferrari desperate to go back to winning.

For you these may not be credible, but many don't agree with you. Short of having a copy of FA's or FM's contract, credible is a grey area and that is precisely what we are arguing.

China 2011: Alonso's race was compromised by a pit stop and Massa was always in front of FA separated by other cars. Only in the last part of the race did Alonso come behind Massa, with the Ferraris 6th and 7th. http://www.f1india.o...ghts-lap-by-lap.

Spa 2011: The championship was as good as won by Vettel, so Ferrari might as well let them race. Still, FA 5th, Massa 8th. So what if Massa made FA's life a little difficult during one pass (IMO he should be entitled to) http://www.telegraph...-2011-live.html

So, your two examples in three seasons are hardly the credible evidence you demand.

Again, I am not saying they are strapping an anchor to Massa's car. And they will try to be as discrete as possible as even though TOs are legal, they are still frowned upon, so it's not like they will stick a No. 1, No. 2 sticker on the Ferraris or make Massa stop on the side of the track until FA passes.



#222 Cool Beans

Cool Beans
  • Member

  • 1,553 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 18 September 2012 - 21:22

Yea, we're not talking about how good the cars were in a particular year, but what the driver brings to the team. Its not like the two WCC's had anything to do with the F2007 and F2008 being exceptionally good cars or anything. That would just be totally inconvenient to your argument. ;)

Ferrari would not have gotten rid of Kimi if they felt he was good value/investment. Live in denial all you like, though.

Yes but what specifically is it that Fernando has come in and done to make you say: 'They hate that Alonso has come in and done what Kimi couldn't do, specifically.'
The male bonding with the team, I don't think any Kimi fan hates Alonso for achieving. They just want a fast car for Kimi, not a love story.
Other than that there's nothing Alonso has demonstrably done that Kimi didn't do with greater results. Nothing. Once again beating the 2012 Massa is not an achievement. So what, specifically, are you talking about? :confused:

Edited by beancounter, 18 September 2012 - 21:23.


#223 mash26

mash26
  • Member

  • 47 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 18 September 2012 - 21:26

I don't see Fernando beating Sebastian in a Ferrari. In a year with variable weather conditions like this one Fernando has a clear advantage I would say, but given any normal year where +80% of race weekends are dry, there's no way he would beat Sebastian in the points/championship. Not only would Sebastian out-qualify him 80% of the time(given equal set-up), Sebastian is no Felipe on Sunday; he tends to go forwards and not backward. The only way he(Sebastian) could lose his advantage is through faulty pit-stops and DNFs.
In any case, the way Ferrari worship Fernando there's NO WAY they are going to compromise the satisfaction and reputation of their star-driver, atleast not before this contract expires. Assuming he retires end of 2016, you had better believe they will be negotiating with Vettel as a replacement WAY in advance.

Edited by mash26, 18 September 2012 - 21:34.


#224 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,729 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 18 September 2012 - 21:40

Yes but what specifically is it that Fernando has come in and done to make you say: 'They hate that Alonso has come in and done what Kimi couldn't do, specifically.'
The male bonding with the team, I don't think any Kimi fan hates Alonso for achieving. They just want a fast car for Kimi, not a love story.
Other than that there's nothing Alonso has demonstrably done that Kimi didn't do with greater results. Nothing. Once again beating the 2012 Massa is not an achievement. So what, specifically, are you talking about? :confused:


:lol:

Edited by RealRacing, 18 September 2012 - 21:40.


#225 RedOne

RedOne
  • Member

  • 1,561 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 18 September 2012 - 22:08

Yes but what specifically is it that Fernando has come in and done to make you say: 'They hate that Alonso has come in and done what Kimi couldn't do, specifically.'
The male bonding with the team, I don't think any Kimi fan hates Alonso for achieving. They just want a fast car for Kimi, not a love story.
Other than that there's nothing Alonso has demonstrably done that Kimi didn't do with greater results. Nothing. Once again beating the 2012 Massa is not an achievement. So what, specifically, are you talking about? :confused:


Ferrari obviously disagree with you and like whatever Alonso is doing to extend his contract till 2016, this year is probably you're biggest clue yet. If you don't wanna see it or can't handle it step out the kitchen.

#226 fabr68

fabr68
  • Member

  • 3,963 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 18 September 2012 - 23:27

Ferrari won two constructors' championships with Kimi as their leader. 0 with Alonso, not even close. WCC is what brings money to the team so Kimi was the better investment. Unless you're talking about the sponsorship money Alonso brings to the team, in which case you are correct.


So going by this logic, Massa was 2XWCC during 2007 and 2008. He also crushed Raikkonen in 2008 so Massa was his leader then. Therefore, Massa must be better than Alonso because Massa has 2xWCC with Ferrari and Alonso has none.

I think you guys are trying to prove that Massa should stay at Ferrari.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Edited by fabr68, 18 September 2012 - 23:30.


#227 DarkknightRises

DarkknightRises
  • Member

  • 329 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 19 September 2012 - 00:12

I don't see Fernando beating Sebastian in a Ferrari. In a year with variable weather conditions like this one Fernando has a clear advantage I would say, but given any normal year where +80% of race weekends are dry, there's no way he would beat Sebastian in the points/championship. Not only would Sebastian out-qualify him 80% of the time(given equal set-up), Sebastian is no Felipe on Sunday; he tends to go forwards and not backward. The only way he(Sebastian) could lose his advantage is through faulty pit-stops and DNFs.
In any case, the way Ferrari worship Fernando there's NO WAY they are going to compromise the satisfaction and reputation of their star-driver, atleast not before this contract expires. Assuming he retires end of 2016, you had better believe they will be negotiating with Vettel as a replacement WAY in advance.


Vettel will not join ferrari as alonso 's teammate~~he's 25 now...5 more years and alonso will retire, vettel is spotted by ferrari as alonso 's replacement!!!

#228 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,544 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 19 September 2012 - 00:18

I think so too. Vettel at 30 can be the perfect driver. We'll see.

#229 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,374 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:43

Ferrari won two constructors' championships with Kimi as their leader. 0 with Alonso, not even close. WCC is what brings money to the team so Kimi was the better investment. Unless you're talking about the sponsorship money Alonso brings to the team, in which case you are correct.

If Kimi is driving at the same speed of Massa, which appeared to be the case in 2007/2008, then Alonso is faster than not just Massa but also Kimi. This is not hard to understand! Therefore Ferrari is right to prefer Alonso to Kimi in 2010.

#230 Cool Beans

Cool Beans
  • Member

  • 1,553 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 19 September 2012 - 02:14

If Kimi is driving at the same speed of Massa, which appeared to be the case in 2007/2008, then Alonso is faster than not just Massa but also Kimi. This is not hard to understand! Therefore Ferrari is right to prefer Alonso to Kimi in 2010.

Alonso was faster than Trulli -> Trulli was equal to R. Schumacher -> Montoya was faster than R Schumacher -> Kimi was faster than Montoya -> Kimi is faster than Alonso :eek:
These comparisons are pointless, often the result is that a driver is faster than himself.
Felipe Massa is a broken driver these days, any driver on the grid would beat him.

Edited by beancounter, 19 September 2012 - 02:15.


#231 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,225 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 19 September 2012 - 03:25

Yes but what specifically is it that Fernando has come in and done to make you say: 'They hate that Alonso has come in and done what Kimi couldn't do, specifically.'
The male bonding with the team, I don't think any Kimi fan hates Alonso for achieving. They just want a fast car for Kimi, not a love story.
Other than that there's nothing Alonso has demonstrably done that Kimi didn't do with greater results. Nothing. Once again beating the 2012 Massa is not an achievement. So what, specifically, are you talking about? :confused:

Proven his worth. Ferrari haven't built a car anywhere near as competitive as the F2007 and F2008 while Alonso has been there, yet Alonso has consistently put himself into contention despite this. Most people would agree that Alonso is driving the best he's ever driven, giving Ferrari results that they probably dont quite deserve with the machinery they've built. Alonso has also proven a team leader who can consistently beat his teammate, something that Kimi was expected to do, but couldn't. You can say that Massa is broken, but if you do, you kind of have to admit that it was Alonso who broke him. I'm sure you've got a workaround for that though, perhaps blaming Ferrari, but you'll know the truth inside. Alonso is doing what Kimi could not at Ferrari. Alonso is doing what very few drivers could do, honestly. Its not hard to see, but it might be if you're spending most of your time doing mental gymnastics to try and explain it away in a light that doesn't make Kimi look worse.

Probably doesn't sound like it, but I like Kimi. I'm a fan. What I dont like is people who cant give credit where credit is due and resort to downplaying other's acheivements for the sake of making their driver look better. Its dishonest and most of the time doesn't facilitate good discussion, either. Thats what I'm not a fan of.

Anyways, keeping it somewhat on topic, I dont think Vettel would want to go to Ferrari until they can start producing cars better than what he can expect at Red Bull, and that might take some more convincing on Ferrari's part, I hate to say. I think even Alonso has to be a little frustrated that he hasn't been given a car thats equally competitive with the best over a season.

#232 DarkknightRises

DarkknightRises
  • Member

  • 329 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 19 September 2012 - 03:46

kimi helped ferrari secure constructor title in 07 08 when the car was capable of so!!

Kimi also helped the team to secure 4th in constructor in 2009 and its only win in 2009, well could be 3rd if badoer or fisi manage to score 1 point !!

Yes, he's not a demanding leader, which ferrari emphasis on its no.1~~ instead, Massa took over the development of the car in 2nd half of the 2008 season, which results in kimi suffering!!

I think fernando suit ferrari best, he is the type of driver ferrari been looking for that enjoy leading the team in car development etc in which kimi couldn;t care less, he only interested in driving.

Well, i enjoy kimi's time in ferrari, and i dont think he owe the team anything, like i said earlier, he won them 2 constructors!!

and the way kimi and team fight for the WDC until the end in 2007 was enjoyable!!

Now that kimi is in Lotus who enjoy taking initiative to back kimi up, and fernando who leading the team in maranello, both of them are in the team that suit them best!! Nth to brag about really!!


#233 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:26

Fully agree. When the Kimi to Ferrari deal was anounced I was convinced that this would not work. Ferrari was used to a man like MSC, who would care about the details, motivate the team and give the little extra, that he is not forced to give by his contract.

Kimi on the other hand comes to the race track, drives insanely fast, goes home.

Alonso is more like MSC, bonding with the team, gving them the feeling that he is 100% behind them.

For Ferrari Kimi was the wrong driver, that however does not mean he is a lesser driver thean the guy who replaced him.

#234 Watkins74

Watkins74
  • Member

  • 5,685 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:41

The thread is "Vettel off to Ferrari in 2014?" Not about the guy Ferrari fired in 2009.

#235 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,101 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:50

Proven his worth. Ferrari haven't built a car anywhere near as competitive as the F2007 and F2008 while Alonso has been there, yet Alonso has consistently put himself into contention despite this. Most people would agree that Alonso is driving the best he's ever driven, giving Ferrari results that they probably dont quite deserve with the machinery they've built. Alonso has also proven a team leader who can consistently beat his teammate, something that Kimi was expected to do, but couldn't. You can say that Massa is broken, but if you do, you kind of have to admit that it was Alonso who broke him. I'm sure you've got a workaround for that though, perhaps blaming Ferrari, but you'll know the truth inside. Alonso is doing what Kimi could not at Ferrari. Alonso is doing what very few drivers could do, honestly. Its not hard to see, but it might be if you're spending most of your time doing mental gymnastics to try and explain it away in a light that doesn't make Kimi look worse.


So are you a fan of the struggle more than the win?

Probably doesn't sound like it, but I like Kimi. I'm a fan.


Well, that is understandable if you are a fan of the struggle over the win. That would describe Kimi at Macca.

What value do you place in winning championships?

What I dont like is people who cant give credit where credit is due and resort to downplaying other's acheivements for the sake of making their driver look better. Its dishonest and most of the time doesn't facilitate good discussion, either. Thats what I'm not a fan of.


I don't think it is fair to assume that is the reason for everyone. Sure, some may have that reason, but others may have a firm belief that a certain driver is better than another in a certain situation. Isn't that what you are saying above? I would hesitate to declare any of the opinions dishonest though because I don't think these issues are something everyone is going to agree on.

Which brings me back on topic because I can't agree with some of the reasons that people have given for wishing to see Vettel at Ferrari in 2014. For example, "proving himself at Ferrari" or "beating a specific teamate." I think the point of his going to Ferrari at anytime is to become a Ferrari champion (WDC and WCC with the teammate). I think most drivers have proven themselves before they are invited to Ferrari. As for the intrateam battle, I do think that a certain level of cooperation is necessary, but clearly that does not have to extend to interfering with the drivers challenging one another. Ferrari just doesn't seem willing to give up on its interfering ways - and it really has nothing to do with who is driving for them - they always insert that ideology at some level, imo. So for me, Vettel would succeed there if he was able to bring more championships to the team; nothing more, nothing less.

Edited by bourbon, 19 September 2012 - 06:53.


#236 FirstWatt

FirstWatt
  • Member

  • 357 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:34

I did not say any of that. You need to provide direct quotes so that you do not misquote others.


Of course, here please:

To me, the point is that Alonso hasn't been anything special at all at Ferrari - he has not produced anything and has set no standards. In fact, it is Raikkonen that has set the Ferrari standard over a simliar period post MSC, which Alonso has failed to live up to, unable to bring home the WCC with Massa or the WDC on his own. He has not managed to score either championship for Ferrari. [...]


Okay, but I was not speaking about the quality of the car. [....]
Alonso during his time at Ferrari so far has earned zero - none. There may be a myriad of reasons for it, but that is not the point. [...]
Did Alonso drive well for Ferrari? Maybe so, but it has no bearing on the things that matter most to Ferrari. Driving well doesn't add cups to the shelf; [...]


The only thing I can read from your abstract performance criterion is that Alonso didn't achieve anything with Ferrari.
This is an absolute statement which per se is correct, but hasn't anything to do with driver strength.
Schumacher from 1996 to 1998 didn't fulfill this criterion too, btw. No WCC, no WDC.

OTOH, if someone says that he judges a driver a tiny bit below another, he has to provide analysis of his own.
Then he does this and provides data, just to hear from other posters that he sets "new criterions" especially "developed" to underline his point.

I say, bring criterions to judge the drivers, but please criterions which are somehow measurable and which do take into account a bit more than just the points earned and the WDC / WCC placement at the end of the season.

#237 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,101 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:05

Of course, here please:

(bourbon @ Sep 17 2012, 21:50)
To me, the point is that Alonso hasn't been anything special at all at Ferrari - he has not produced anything and has set no standards. In fact, it is Raikkonen that has set the Ferrari standard over a simliar period post MSC, which Alonso has failed to live up to, unable to bring home the WCC with Massa or the WDC on his own. He has not managed to score either championship for Ferrari. [...]



(bourbon @ Sep 18 2012, 02:22)
Okay, but I was not speaking about the quality of the car. [....]
Alonso during his time at Ferrari so far has earned zero - none. There may be a myriad of reasons for it, but that is not the point. [...]
Did Alonso drive well for Ferrari? Maybe so, but it has no bearing on the things that matter most to Ferrari. Driving well doesn't add cups to the shelf; [...]


The only thing I can read from your abstract performance criterion is that Alonso didn't achieve anything with Ferrari.
This is an absolute statement which per se is correct, but hasn't anything to do with driver strength.
Schumacher from 1996 to 1998 didn't fulfill this criterion too, btw. No WCC, no WDC.


Yes, that is what I said. I did not say:

There was a poster (Bourbon i think) who managed to set the criterion "Alonso didn't win the WDC, so he isn't a good driver" without looking at the car he had. And saying that Vettel was better, because he managed to win.


I stand by what I did say - the point being that Vettel at Ferrari would have to live up to the standards set by past Ferrari champions like MSC and Kimi.

OTOH, if someone says that he judges a driver a tiny bit below another, he has to provide analysis of his own.
Then he does this and provides data, just to hear from other posters that he sets "new criterions" especially "developed" to underline his point.


I didn't participate in that part of the conversation.

I say, bring criterions to judge the drivers, but please criterions which are somehow measurable and which do take into account a bit more than just the points earned and the WDC / WCC placement at the end of the season.


I think it is fine to discuss other criteria if you like. But I was merely discussing what I feel Ferrari's criteria will be in judging Vettel, should he join the team in the future. IMO, Ferrari's expectations will be for Vettel to emulate past Ferrari champions and win more champioinships for Ferrari (and the money that goes with them).

I don't have any problem with other criteria, but I am not really into discussing it because I don't think it will matter to Ferrari in terms of Vettel. I have a very hard time imagining the team principal and president discussing how many wins Vettel had from P4 instead of P1-P3; or how quick his cars were in his WDC years, or requiring that he have a WDC teammate in order to judge his "true performance". Ferrari doesn't care about that stuff - many of their champions did not meet that criteria. For a driver of Vettel's caliber, Ferrari's main criteria is whether or not the driver will be able to earn WDC and WCC championships for Ferrari, imo.

Edited by bourbon, 19 September 2012 - 09:20.


#238 FirstWatt

FirstWatt
  • Member

  • 357 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:51

[...]For a driver of Vettel's caliber, Ferrari's main criteria is whether or not the driver will be able to earn WDC and WCC championships for Ferrari, imo.

Which does in fact imply that driving skills, behaviour of a driver when the car is not a winning car, how has the driver managed with difficult situations off grid, etc. are analyzed.
Two championships won in a clearly superior car might or might not be sufficient, but i'm sure they are not only looking at this. They would be foolish.

To me, Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton have proven more than Vettel to be able to win (also a championship) in a equally competitive with another or slightly sub par car.
I do not say that Vettel could not do it. He had the chance in 2009, maybe he was too young, and he has the chance in 2012, to demonstrate it.
This is my opinion, anyone is entitled to have his own. I rest my case.


#239 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,544 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:40

The only thing I can read from your abstract performance criterion is that Alonso didn't achieve anything with Ferrari.
This is an absolute statement which per se is correct, but hasn't anything to do with driver strength.
Schumacher from 1996 to 1998 didn't fulfill this criterion too, btw. No WCC, no WDC.

Yes, that is what I said. I did not say:



I stand by what I did say - the point being that Vettel at Ferrari would have to live up to the standards set by past Ferrari champions like MSC and Kimi.



I didn't participate in that part of the conversation.



I think it is fine to discuss other criteria if you like. But I was merely discussing what I feel Ferrari's criteria will be in judging Vettel, should he join the team in the future. IMO, Ferrari's expectations will be for Vettel to emulate past Ferrari champions and win more champioinships for Ferrari (and the money that goes with them).

I don't have any problem with other criteria, but I am not really into discussing it because I don't think it will matter to Ferrari in terms of Vettel. I have a very hard time imagining the team principal and president discussing how many wins Vettel had from P4 instead of P1-P3; or how quick his cars were in his WDC years, or requiring that he have a WDC teammate in order to judge his "true performance". Ferrari doesn't care about that stuff - many of their champions did not meet that criteria. For a driver of Vettel's caliber, Ferrari's main criteria is whether or not the driver will be able to earn WDC and WCC championships for Ferrari, imo.

This assumption of yours about what Ferrari wants in totally wrong. The teams knows that the titles do not rely on just its drivers. They pay equal importance to the engineers who are building the car and the mechanics in the garage.
Let me remind you that in 2008 Ferrari was equally happy with Massa as they had been the prior year with Kimi despite losing the wdc to lewis on the last lap. The team felt that they let felipe down in Hungary And in Singapore thus the main reason why he did not win the title that year. On the other hand everyone knows that they were dissapointed with Kimi because his results that year did not justify his high paying salary and he was fired because of it. Maybe they knew he had talent but reAlized he was not the driver that they were looking for, a leader and someone who can drive fast despite the car not being perfect..this tire warming issue is not something that you want to hear as an excuse from a driver who is making 20 mil a year when at the same time Felipe Massa at one third of his salary is getting poles left and right with the same car.



Advertisement

#240 ForzaGTR

ForzaGTR
  • Member

  • 2,940 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:36

Alonso is clearly better than Vettel. It's just laughable to argue otherwise.

#241 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,225 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:37

So are you a fan of the struggle more than the win?

You guys can keep harping on about how Kimi won his WDC there, but the point remains that Alonso has not gotten a car from Ferrari as competitive as Kimi had for two years in his time there. I'm a fan of a driver who gets the most out of his machinery, week in and week out. I'm a fan of winning of course, too, thats frankly a ridiculous question. Its just I realize that a championship is largely going to come down to the team building a good enough car. I dont see how you can completely ignore that notion so often when talking about this subject. I'm a Ferrari fan, first and foremost, so I dont enjoy talking about how Ferrari hasn't produced a championship-calibre car the past 3 years, but its just the truth of the matter. And this very fact is why Vettel probably wouldn't be coming over anytime soon.

#242 EvanRainer

EvanRainer
  • Member

  • 1,364 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:39

Vettel is clearly better than Hamilton. It's just laughable to argue otherwise.

Bow down to my awesome skills of argumentation.

#243 sailor

sailor
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 19 September 2012 - 12:50

You guys can keep harping on about how Kimi won his WDC there, but the point remains that Alonso has not gotten a car from Ferrari as competitive as Kimi had for two years in his time there. I'm a fan of a driver who gets the most out of his machinery, week in and week out. I'm a fan of winning of course, too, thats frankly a ridiculous question. Its just I realize that a championship is largely going to come down to the team building a good enough car. I dont see how you can completely ignore that notion so often when talking about this subject. I'm a Ferrari fan, first and foremost, so I dont enjoy talking about how Ferrari hasn't produced a championship-calibre car the past 3 years, but its just the truth your opinion on the matter. And this very fact is why Vettel probably wouldn't be coming over anytime soon.


Corrected. For all we know Ferrari was a winning car hampered by Alonso struggling early on to adapt. You just never know.

2012 the car is good enough for the title - its just laughable to suggest otherwise.

Edited by sailor, 19 September 2012 - 12:50.


#244 sailor

sailor
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 19 September 2012 - 12:53

Alonso is clearly better than Vettel. It's just laughable to argue otherwise.


BBC list disagrees :smoking:

#245 Watkins74

Watkins74
  • Member

  • 5,685 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 September 2012 - 12:56

Corrected. For all we know Ferrari was a winning car hampered by Alonso struggling early on to adapt. You just never know.

2012 the car is good enough for the title - its just laughable to suggest otherwise.

So was the 2008 car but he couldn't even beat his teammate, I guess that huge wallet slowed him down.  ;)

#246 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,225 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 19 September 2012 - 14:30

Corrected. For all we know Ferrari was a winning car hampered by Alonso struggling early on to adapt. You just never know.

Sure, but if you've got two eyes and have been following this sport at all, we can pretty much rule that out. Hang on to that thread of desperation if you like, though.

2012 the car is good enough for the title - its just laughable to suggest otherwise.

Not really. Alonso has been brilliant. The car? Its been ok. That he's leading the championship right now is down to a lot of factors, which should be apparent again, if you've been following.

#247 DarkknightRises

DarkknightRises
  • Member

  • 329 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 19 September 2012 - 15:06

Sure, but if you've got two eyes and have been following this sport at all, we can pretty much rule that out. Hang on to that thread of desperation if you like, though.


Not really. Alonso has been brilliant. The car? Its been ok. That he's leading the championship right now is down to a lot of factors, which should be apparent again, if you've been following.


Ok? the car is the most consistent out there~!! its true prior to barcelona, it encounters qualifying issues, but as soon as the team introduce upgrades for the car, the problem was sorted!! And the car race pace has been decent all the while, and getting better as the team keep throw in upgrades in every gp.

Especially in wet, the F2012 is the best car out there which helped alonso to win sepang, qualy on pole in silverstone and hockenheim!!

Ignorant alonso fans will keep on playing down the car, but if you followed technical forums, you will notice how brilliant that car had become!!

#248 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,225 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 19 September 2012 - 15:18

Ok? the car is the most consistent out there~!! its true prior to barcelona, it encounters qualifying issues, but as soon as the team introduce upgrades for the car, the problem was sorted!! And the car race pace has been decent all the while, and getting better as the team keep throw in upgrades in every gp.

Especially in wet, the F2012 is the best car out there which helped alonso to win sepang, qualy on pole in silverstone and hockenheim!!

Ignorant alonso fans will keep on playing down the car, but if you followed technical forums, you will notice how brilliant that car had become!!

Well no, the car definitely still struggles in qualifying. Its true that rain has helped in qualifying for a couple races, but other than that, its looked no better than a P3-P6 or so car depending on the track. Race pace has been decent, I agree, but it really hasn't been quickest at any weekend.

I'm not saying the car is terrible, but its not really the sort of car you'd expect to be leading the championship this late in the season. I'm not an ignorant Alonso fan. I'm a Ferrari fan who sees things more clearly than a lot of people that seem to have an agenda.

#249 DarkknightRises

DarkknightRises
  • Member

  • 329 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 19 September 2012 - 15:24

Well no, the car definitely still struggles in qualifying. Its true that rain has helped in qualifying for a couple races, but other than that, its looked no better than a P3-P6 or so car depending on the track. Race pace has been decent, I agree, but it really hasn't been quickest at any weekend.

I'm not saying the car is terrible, but its not really the sort of car you'd expect to be leading the championship this late in the season. I'm not an ignorant Alonso fan. I'm a Ferrari fan who sees things more clearly than a lot of people that seem to have an agenda.


Sebastian Vettel : "I'm not afraid to go against Fernando in the same team, as in the end it's good for the team if it has two good drivers, which means it's also good for me because the challenge is all the greater. But the most important thing is that I'm very happy with Red Bull, and not at all thinking about leaving. His car is not as bad as everyone always says — only at the start of the season was he not really able to compete. In the end he has always been there in all conditions, and very reliable, which for me is why the Alonso-Ferrari package has been so far the strongest."

I bet vettel has more clear picture as the team has gather all the data on different team 's race car!!

#250 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,693 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 September 2012 - 15:34

Sebastian Vettel : "I'm not afraid to go against Fernando in the same team, as in the end it's good for the team if it has two good drivers, which means it's also good for me because the challenge is all the greater. But the most important thing is that I'm very happy with Red Bull, and not at all thinking about leaving. His car is not as bad as everyone always says — only at the start of the season was he not really able to compete. In the end he has always been there in all conditions, and very reliable, which for me is why the Alonso-Ferrari package has been so far the strongest."

I bet vettel has more clear picture as the team has gather all the data on different team 's race car!!


It's really difficult to read anything from that Vettel quote. What does he mean when he refers to "not as bad as everyone says"? If that means "not as bad as the doom mongers on some forums wrote in spring, stuff like the F2012 being worse than the TR", then I fully agree with him. In any case he clearly does not say the F2012 is the best car, just that it allows Alonso to compete.

In the second part of the quote, when he describes what Alonso has achieved with that car, note what he is talking about: "In the end he has always been there in all conditions, and very reliable, which for me is why the Alonso-Ferrari package has been so far the strongest." Again, he does not single out the car as the strongest, but refers to the driver-car combo being the strongest so far.

Overall, there's not much there to base an argument on, in neither direction.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 19 September 2012 - 15:37.