Jump to content


Photo

Why don't third drivers race?


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1 taran

taran
  • Member

  • 1,815 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 13 September 2012 - 15:55

Boullier of Lotus feels d'Ambrosio did a good job considering he hadn't raced for 10 months. Luca Badoer was a joke when he replaced Massa, a fact blamed on not having raced for 10 years. And the list goes on.

Third drivers, test drivers or whatever they are called apparently spend all their time hanging around. And when they are called up to replace a driver, all that time in simulators and debriefing doesn't amount to much :well: .

So why don't they bloody well race in some other series :confused: ? GP2 or FR3.5 should keep them sharpish. GT racing would do in a pinch, it certainly didn't diminish driver skills for others going that route in the past.

Are they too afraid their precious reputations will be sullied if they get beaten in a lower category?

Advertisement

#2 Pharazon

Pharazon
  • Member

  • 1,125 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 13 September 2012 - 15:59

many of them do...

no matter what they race though, i'ts not the same as a f1 car

#3 Andrew Hope

Andrew Hope
  • Writer of 2013's Best Opening Post

  • 7,068 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:02

I can't think of very many 3rd/reserve drivers who don't race in other series.

Would love to see the return of 3rd cars though, like in the 70s. Entering a third car for a few races would be interesting to see, last done by Renault in the late 1970s I believe.

Generally I think people are too harsh on reserve drivers though, any time you're jumping in a ride mid-season I think it's wrong to expect points at all in the 1st race. People like to laugh at Badoer but he wasn't much worse than a lot of the drivers in similar spots to him recently.

#4 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 2,861 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:07

Would love to see the return of 3rd cars though, like in the 70s. Entering a third car for a few races would be interesting to see, last done by Renault in the late 1970s I believe.

Generally I think people are too harsh on reserve drivers though, any time you're jumping in a ride mid-season I think it's wrong to expect points at all in the 1st race. People like to laugh at Badoer but he wasn't much worse than a lot of the drivers in similar spots to him recently.


:up: :up: Can't see the drivers running any better than Jerome did, but it would be cool if the teams had a 3rd 'testing car' and the top four pace setters in practice 'pre-qualified' for the race. It would open up the sport to have the final 4 rides as decent machinery rather than having Maurussia and HRT snailing along at the back, racing Formula 1.5 cars.

I mean, could anything good come out of those seats for young drivers unless you have prior connections (see, Ricciardo vs. Di Grassi et al.)?

Edited by Jimisgod, 13 September 2012 - 16:12.


#5 Red17

Red17
  • Member

  • 3,435 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:14

Short story: Ferrari threw the idea for discussion > People shot it down because it was Ferrari, must be some scheme to fix races, Ferrari is evil>Bernie throws the idea > People shot it down because it's Bernie and he is old and crazy.

Most teams probably don't like the idea, it's one more car. That is one more mandatory crash test, one more crew of people to tend it, one more potential repair bill, one more area to spread the tiny sponsor money. I can see Mclaren and Ferrari having no problem with it, but the rest would prefer to spend the money in testing.

Having a good car on a bad driver will not fix his talent. Maldonado has won a race this year but has collected 10 times more penalties and incidents.

#6 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:44

Honestly I see no reason, why there should not be an test session for the 3rd driver on the Thursday before the GP.

#7 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 11,825 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:46

So why don't they bloody well race in some other series

A very good question. All drivers need as much racing seat-time as they can get - all experience is valuable. I worry about Bottas for instance - just out of GP3 and now stagnating at Williams. Where is he learning his race craft? He should be doing something that doesn't conflict with his Williams duties. Anything will do, as long as it's racing. Same thing for the other #3s.

#8 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 9,825 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:48

I've long defended a system of rotation of 3rd cars. The current grid has 2 empty slots (24 entries per race when the maximum is 26), so why not rotate those 2 slots between the teams interested in running a 3rd car?

It's pretty simple, currently there's 20 races in the calendar, if there's 2 extra slots, that means there's 40 possible entries. If 4 teams are interested that's 10 races a 3rd car of each team. If 5 are interested that's 8 races per team. I'd also make it so that 3rd cars can score WDC/WCC points but if 3 cars from the same team finish in the points, only the 2 best placed score for WCC. Most teams would then always be interested in running the 3rd car because it's a competitive advantage.

It would give more opportunities to more drivers, more action on track too, more PR potential for guest appearances etc etc. I can't really see any negative to this proposal other than cost, but the teams that can't afford it wouldn't run a 3rd car. Or would hand it to a paydriver rich enough to cover the cost.

#9 maximilian

maximilian
  • Member

  • 435 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:54

I've long defended a system of rotation of 3rd cars. The current grid has 2 empty slots (24 entries per race when the maximum is 26), so why not rotate those 2 slots between the teams interested in running a 3rd car?

It's pretty simple, currently there's 20 races in the calendar, if there's 2 extra slots, that means there's 40 possible entries. If 4 teams are interested that's 10 races a 3rd car of each team. If 5 are interested that's 8 races per team. I'd also make it so that 3rd cars can score WDC/WCC points but if 3 cars from the same team finish in the points, only the 2 best placed score for WCC. Most teams would then always be interested in running the 3rd car because it's a competitive advantage.

It would give more opportunities to more drivers, more action on track too, more PR potential for guest appearances etc etc. I can't really see any negative to this proposal other than cost, but the teams that can't afford it wouldn't run a 3rd car. Or would hand it to a paydriver rich enough to cover the cost.


THIS is something I would LOVE to see! :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

#10 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 6,420 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:55

It would give more opportunities to more drivers, more action on track too, more PR potential for guest appearances etc etc. I can't really see any negative to this proposal other than cost, but the teams that can't afford it wouldn't run a 3rd car. Or would hand it to a paydriver rich enough to cover the cost.


You're missing the negative of third cars from the big teams taking attention and points positions away from the smaller teams. Never going to happen for that reason.

#11 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:59

I've long defended a system of rotation of 3rd cars. The current grid has 2 empty slots (24 entries per race when the maximum is 26), so why not rotate those 2 slots between the teams interested in running a 3rd car?

It's pretty simple, currently there's 20 races in the calendar, if there's 2 extra slots, that means there's 40 possible entries. If 4 teams are interested that's 10 races a 3rd car of each team. If 5 are interested that's 8 races per team. I'd also make it so that 3rd cars can score WDC/WCC points but if 3 cars from the same team finish in the points, only the 2 best placed score for WCC. Most teams would then always be interested in running the 3rd car because it's a competitive advantage.

It would give more opportunities to more drivers, more action on track too, more PR potential for guest appearances etc etc. I can't really see any negative to this proposal other than cost, but the teams that can't afford it wouldn't run a 3rd car. Or would hand it to a paydriver rich enough to cover the cost.


This sounds great! Do the powers that be read this forum?

#12 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 9,825 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 13 September 2012 - 17:07

You're missing the negative of third cars from the big teams taking attention and points positions away from the smaller teams. Never going to happen for that reason.


That would certainly be a problem if I was suggesting full seasons for 3rd cars from all the top teams. I'm talking only 2 extra cars though. And there's some mitigating advantages that would make it not as negative for the smaller teams:

- the possibility of themselves entering a 3rd car and selling it to the Pics, Chiltons and Karthikeyans for a large pot of cash.

- a possible compromise rule of WCC points being "shifted" if 3 cars from the same team finish in the points, for ex. if McLaren finish in a 1-2-3, the 3rd place points goes to the car finishing 4th. This would make the points system a little too complicated but it's for the greater good.

#13 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 9,825 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 13 September 2012 - 17:12

This sounds great! Do the powers that be read this forum?


I once posted a thread here arguing for a system similar to DRS, months later DRS was announced, so I like to think they do!

#14 onewingedangel

onewingedangel
  • Member

  • 942 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 13 September 2012 - 17:13

Teams should be allowed to build up the third car they take to the races as spares and have the third driver run on Fridays. This could be used to get extra data for future updates without compromising the race drivers setup and give teams the chance to develop and evaluate third drivers.

Additional cost would be minimum - could even allow any in season or young driver tests to be avoided - so may even prove more efficient. There is no extra freight as the parts are already shipped to the racetrack as spares, and you could quite easily give one set of tyres less to the race drivers over the course of the weekend.

Only real negatives would be the mechanics would have to build a third car up, but when time is tight (Barcelona/Monaco double, back-to-back flyaway races) they could elect not to run the third car, and the risk of the third driver binning the car and damaging some of the 'spare' parts.

#15 DonaldDuck

DonaldDuck
  • Member

  • 299 posts
  • Joined: August 12

Posted 13 September 2012 - 17:31

Boullier of Lotus feels d'Ambrosio did a good job considering he hadn't raced for 10 months. Luca Badoer was a joke when he replaced Massa, a fact blamed on not having raced for 10 years. And the list goes on.

Third drivers, test drivers or whatever they are called apparently spend all their time hanging around. And when they are called up to replace a driver, all that time in simulators and debriefing doesn't amount to much :well: .

So why don't they bloody well race in some other series :confused: ? GP2 or FR3.5 should keep them sharpish. GT racing would do in a pinch, it certainly didn't diminish driver skills for others going that route in the past.

Are they too afraid their precious reputations will be sullied if they get beaten in a lower category?

The purpose of a third driver is Not to race, but test. Thats why they are called third drivers or test drivers. IN the cut throat world like F1, you would be stupid to give your car to a non-regular driver.

#16 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 14,302 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 13 September 2012 - 17:32

Would love to see the return of 3rd cars though, like in the 70s. Entering a third car for a few races would be interesting to see, last done by Renault in the late 1970s I believe.


It was last done by Renault, but in 1985. They ran an extra car in the German GP for Francois Hesnault alongside regular drivers Derek Warwick and Patrick Tambay. They all qualified well down the grid and none of them finished.

Now, three cars from a single team all finishing in the points, that would be an achievement.

#17 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 14,302 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 13 September 2012 - 17:33

The purpose of a third driver is Not to race, but test. Thats why they are called third drivers or test drivers. IN the cut throat world like F1, you would be stupid to give your car to a non-regular driver.


Williams would probably be better off running Bottas than Senna. And we all know where Vettel, Kubica and Alonso got their major career breaks.

#18 DonaldDuck

DonaldDuck
  • Member

  • 299 posts
  • Joined: August 12

Posted 13 September 2012 - 17:38

Williams would probably be better off running Bottas than Senna. And we all know where Vettel, Kubica and Alonso got their major career breaks.

I am not too sure about it. It will take time for Bottas to get upto speed, jumping from testing to racing is not jet set go! A driver needs to find a rythm, and by the time Bottas would start performing, the season would be close to over! Vettel, Kubica and Alonso were ready when they arrived. Alonso did one year of testing before getting his race seat with Renault, so yeah you need to be prepared to sit in the car and race. Badoer, De La rosa when he was at Mclaren or Ambrosio were specially reserved for testing duties.

Edited by DonaldDuck, 13 September 2012 - 17:39.


#19 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 14,302 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 13 September 2012 - 17:55

I am not too sure about it. It will take time for Bottas to get upto speed, jumping from testing to racing is not jet set go! A driver needs to find a rythm, and by the time Bottas would start performing, the season would be close to over! Vettel, Kubica and Alonso were ready when they arrived. Alonso did one year of testing before getting his race seat with Renault, so yeah you need to be prepared to sit in the car and race. Badoer, De La rosa when he was at Mclaren or Ambrosio were specially reserved for testing duties.


Alonso was ready at the start of 2002, but Renault had two drivers already under contract. Kubica and Vettel stepped in midseason and were extremely competitive.

One can talk about different testing programmes all one likes, but Bottas has been regularly on the pace of the two Williams drivers during his Friday sessions. Just like those other three mentioned were with Renault and BMW-Sauber. He'd do extremely well if he had to step in if, say, something untoward and steward-related happened to Maldonado.

Edited by Risil, 13 September 2012 - 17:56.


Advertisement

#20 DonaldDuck

DonaldDuck
  • Member

  • 299 posts
  • Joined: August 12

Posted 13 September 2012 - 18:00

Alonso was ready at the start of 2002, but Renault had two drivers already under contract. Kubica and Vettel stepped in midseason and were extremely competitive.

One can talk about different testing programmes all one likes, but Bottas has been regularly on the pace of the two Williams drivers during his Friday sessions. Just like those other three mentioned were with Renault and BMW-Sauber. He'd do extremely well if he had to step in if, say, something untoward and steward-related happened to Maldonado.

I think Kubica and Vettel are exceptional drivers. They are a different league altogether, so is Alonso. I reallly dont believe that Bottas is on that level that he could straight away jump into a Formula 1 car and start delivering. If he was that good then the wily old man Mr. Williams would have had him driving Bruno's car already. Bottas is under preparation right now. If anything then we should see next year as I strongly feel he is tipped for a race seat, but next year! As a famous man once said:

"If you want to win, hire a Finn."
:smoking:

#21 rsaca

rsaca
  • Member

  • 351 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 13 September 2012 - 18:14

Honestly I see no reason, why there should not be an test session for the 3rd driver on the Thursday before the GP.


Reason #1 is costs. Remember they're trying to keep the costs down and just having a test day would implicate a lot of money. Not only that but what happens if there's a big crash and the car is destroyed?


#22 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 13 September 2012 - 18:44

What happens when a regular driver crashes in FP1? And the team are mostly at the circuit on Thursday anyway.

#23 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 10,362 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 13 September 2012 - 19:15

I've long defended a system of rotation of 3rd cars. The current grid has 2 empty slots (24 entries per race when the maximum is 26), so why not rotate those 2 slots between the teams interested in running a 3rd car?

It's pretty simple, currently there's 20 races in the calendar, if there's 2 extra slots, that means there's 40 possible entries. If 4 teams are interested that's 10 races a 3rd car of each team. If 5 are interested that's 8 races per team. I'd also make it so that 3rd cars can score WDC/WCC points but if 3 cars from the same team finish in the points, only the 2 best placed score for WCC. Most teams would then always be interested in running the 3rd car because it's a competitive advantage.

It would give more opportunities to more drivers, more action on track too, more PR potential for guest appearances etc etc. I can't really see any negative to this proposal other than cost, but the teams that can't afford it wouldn't run a 3rd car. Or would hand it to a paydriver rich enough to cover the cost.


How absurdly well thought out, GTFO.

#24 BigCHrome

BigCHrome
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 13 September 2012 - 19:47

Honestly I see no reason, why there should not be an test session for the 3rd driver on the Thursday before the GP.


Because teams have switched to a software developmental model. Real life testing is basically a waste of time for the engineers. Also it's extra money to waste on unnecessary things.

#25 THE "driverider"

THE "driverider"
  • Member

  • 804 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 13 September 2012 - 20:58

Something like this...

Any team can run a 3rd car once during anyone one of the European races (except Monaco), that way the final races of the season couldn't be messed by that rule. 3rd drivers can score points for themselves, however only the top 2 drivers from a team can score points and the 3rd highest would not negate points from drivers behind.

e.g.

Say McLaren chose to run Oliver Turvey and the result was this.

1. Button
2. Vettel
3. Hamilton
4. Turvey
5. Webber
6. Alonso
7. Kobayashi
8. Raikkonen
9. Perez
10. Ricciardo
11. di Resta

the Drivers points would be...

Button 25pts
Vettel 18pts
Hamilton 15pts
Turvey 12pts
Webbber 10pts
Alonso 8pts
Kobayashi 6pts
Raikkonen 4pts
Perez 2pts
Ricciardo 1pt
di Resta 0pts


and the Constructors points would be...


McLaren 40pts
Red Bull 30pts
Sauber 12pts
Ferrari 10pts
Lotus 6pts
Toro Rosso 2pts
Force India 1pt

Force India and the other teams do not lose out on the basis McLaren ran a third car.

Edited by THE "driverider", 13 September 2012 - 21:00.


#26 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,843 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 13 September 2012 - 21:35

To make the field more competitive, these alternatives could be tried

-Have eight 3 car teams. For me it would be preferable to have: McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari, RBR, Williams, Sauber, FI and STR with 3 cars each than the current line-up. Having said that, probably only the first 3 or 4 could afford 3 cars.

-Have customer teams, which, in a way, is already happening. But I would allow that they buy the exact same cars that the main teams race. Of course, in this case, we all know the B Ferrari, for example, would never be allowed to be like the A Ferrari...

-Have something like Indy where 1 or 2 manufacturers make the available chassis and the teams just work from there.

I would actually prefer any of the three to having, practically, two different series running on the same track...

#27 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 9,825 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 13 September 2012 - 21:39

How absurdly well thought out, GTFO.


Sarcasm? Even if only 2 cars score, the 3rd car is a competitive advantage nonetheless, because one of the 2 regular drivers may have a DNF, or the 3rd driver may outperform the regular drivers and score more WCC points than if he hadn't competed. Plus the advantage of having another car around doing setup work and collecting data in Friday and Saturday.

#28 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 9,825 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 13 September 2012 - 21:41

3rd drivers can score points for themselves, however only the top 2 drivers from a team can score points and the 3rd highest would not negate points from drivers behind.

e.g. (...)


Yes that is exactly the rule I suggested above but you explained it better. :up:

#29 maximilian

maximilian
  • Member

  • 435 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 September 2012 - 21:43

That would certainly be a problem if I was suggesting full seasons for 3rd cars from all the top teams. I'm talking only 2 extra cars though. And there's some mitigating advantages that would make it not as negative for the smaller teams:

- the possibility of themselves entering a 3rd car and selling it to the Pics, Chiltons and Karthikeyans for a large pot of cash.

- a possible compromise rule of WCC points being "shifted" if 3 cars from the same team finish in the points, for ex. if McLaren finish in a 1-2-3, the 3rd place points goes to the car finishing 4th. This would make the points system a little too complicated but it's for the greater good.

:up: :up: :up: Yeah, I think that would be a good compromise needed to avoid a cluttering of the points ranks with all the top teams.

Assignments could be done by pure lottery, or perhaps with a certain degree of regional consideration, for example definitely running a 3rd Ferrari in Monza, 3rd McLaren and Lotus in Silverstone (or whatever the top-2 British teams happen to be), 3rd Caterham in Malaysia, 3rd ForceIndia in India, 3rd HRT in Spain, 3rd Mercedes in Germany...

Maybe 12 of the 20 races could be designated for 26 cars, so each team gets 2 extra car outings. Maybe the European races and select overseas races would be the ones designated. Monaco should probably not be one of them, as 24 cars is plenty there, anyways - plus every team would surely love to have an extra car there, so hard to decide who gets it unless it's a complete lottery. Also like the notion of the last few races running 24 cars, so none of the 3rd cars interfere with the final title battle...

Edited by maximilian, 13 September 2012 - 22:04.


#30 Prost1997T

Prost1997T
  • Member

  • 2,006 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 13 September 2012 - 22:05

Alonso was ready at the start of 2002, but Renault had two drivers already under contract. Kubica and Vettel stepped in midseason and were extremely competitive.


Proper mid-season testing was actually allowed back then :p

Edited by Prost1997T, 13 September 2012 - 22:05.


#31 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 1,175 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 September 2012 - 22:45


How about, for example, in a season of 20 races that they limit any one driver to racing in only 15 of them.

It would be slightly difficult to work out the details - I imagine,teams might want to chose their drivers based on what other teams are doing and so you'd have to make the declarations in secret, but that might be tricky if a driver falls ill over the course of the weekend. However, if the rules could be worked out, then it would give the third drivers a chance to get a few races in.

#32 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 14 September 2012 - 15:59

I think they should do some in-season testing on Mondays following the GPs, at least for some race like those in Europe (some inseason testing is good for F1). During those tests it can be made mandatory that one of the cars should be driven by the third drivers.

Edited by SpaMaster, 14 September 2012 - 16:18.


#33 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 5,785 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 14 September 2012 - 16:23

The purpose of a third driver is Not to race, but test. Thats why they are called third drivers or test drivers. IN the cut throat world like F1, you would be stupid to give your car to a non-regular driver.

test drivers? and how much do they actually get to touch the cars?

#34 CONOSUR

CONOSUR
  • Member

  • 10,626 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 14 September 2012 - 16:50

... it's one more car. That is one more mandatory crash test...

They don't crash-test every car, or there wouldn't be any left to race. Posted Image




:cool: