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Losing three consecutive championships


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#1 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:37

Think Will Power's record would be peerless.

Stirling Moss finished four times in a row 2nd in the World Championship (1955-56-57-58) but he did not "lose the championship", he was not ever in the lead before the final round.

Do not remember whether another driver in any category or any minor series had scored such an unfortunate (and ridiculous) number of failures.

Edited by Nanni Dietrich, 17 September 2012 - 12:38.


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#2 Allan Lupton

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 13:05

Think Will Power's record would be peerless.

Who was he, and when?

#3 RogerFrench

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 13:10

Who was he, and when?


A present-day Australian, drives Indycar.

#4 Falcadore

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 13:47

Who was he, and when?


Indy Car driver for Roger Penske. Led the points race coming into the 2010 finale but had a pitstop issue and a wall issue and lost the title to Dario Franchitti. In 2011 he was leading with two races to go (although Indycar now shamefully says one), lost the lead to Franchitti by a tiny margin at the second last round and then we had the tragedy of the 2011 season finale. Weekend just gone a 17 point lead turned to dust after spinning into a wall, this time benefitting Ryan Hunter-Reay. Power said in the conference that the team seems to be jinxed.

#5 ryan86

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 21:32

In 2009, his teammate, Ryan Briscoe, was in a position at the penultimate race where he almost just needed to keep going to win the championship and then contrived to spin coming out of the pitlane and clout the wall. He finished 3rd in the championship.

Not quite the same, but Ferrari lost those 3 championships at the final race 97-99.

Edited by ryan86, 17 September 2012 - 21:35.


#6 Spaceframe

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:33

Think Will Power's record would be peerless.

Stirling Moss finished four times in a row 2nd in the World Championship (1955-56-57-58) but he did not "lose the championship", he was not ever in the lead before the final round.

Do not remember whether another driver in any category or any minor series had scored such an unfortunate (and ridiculous) number of failures.

Alain Prost!

In 1982 he opened the season with two victories, but despite numerous laps in the lead in many GPs, he didn't win the championship. At Monaco he led fore some 60 laps before sliding into the guardrails after the chicane, when the late-race drizzle began, but that's the only points he lost due to his own failure - elsewhere the Renault failed.

In 1983 he had a 14 points lead after the Austrian GP - and had he stayed calm at Zandvoort, he would've inherited the lead, as Piquet's Brabham was on the verge of collapsing, when Prost quite inpatiently tried to muscle his way past the Brazilian at Tarzan.

And, finally 1984, where Prost won seven GPs to Lauda's five, but still got beaten by half a point.

btw - who is Will Power, and what series does/did he race in?

#7 Emery0323

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 14:16

btw - who is Will Power, and what series does/did he race in?


While Indycar racing (now IRL) might not have the same following and visibility that it used to back in the good old days of USAC/CART, it is quite telling just how far the series has fallen that this question has come up twice in this thread. Once upon a time, this was the preserve of Foyt, the Unsers, the Andrettis, Fittipaldi, Mears, etc..

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Will_Power

http://www.willpower12.com/

Edited by Emery0323, 18 September 2012 - 14:34.


#8 B Squared

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 15:15

...it is quite telling just how far the series has fallen that this question has come up twice in this thread.


I find it hard to believe that two people who know how to post on the Autosport website forum would ask "who is Will Power." They may be aware of Google and other search methods and could find the answer for themselves. Or they are just asking a rhetorical question to forward jabs at the Indy Car series, per usual.

#9 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 15:24

In two out of three of those 'losses' the victor was the same guy, so I don't think Power has any jinx. And Hunter-Reay won more races this year. I think a better way to look at it is Power has been in the title fight in the last round of all three of his Penske seasons.

Falcadore even if Vegas had counted last year, Power loses. He was caught up in the accident.

#10 D-Type

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 15:38

Like most TNF members, I don't follow Indy car racing, particularly contemporary racing, so I was also baffled by the initial post. It would have made life easier if the original poster had explained that Will Power is a contemporary Indy Car driver who not only has finished second in the last three championships but on each occasion has gone into the final race as championship leader. At least I think that is meant. I'm not sufficiently interested to spend time googling to confirm it.

The name "Will Power" doesn't help clarity as it could be a character in Pilgrim's Progress or a comedy show.

#11 B Squared

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 15:51

I'm not sufficiently interested to spend time googling to confirm it.

The name "Will Power" doesn't help clarity as it could be a character in Pilgrim's Progress or a comedy show.


However, you are sufficiently interested to take time to forward the last post.

Will Power just didn't start his racing career in an Indy Car. He also spent time in Europe racing cars from 2003-05, so there was ample opportunity for anyone interested in open wheel racing to become familiar with his name. In fact, when one does google the term "will power", the race driver being discussed is the first hit, so I don't think that you would have to spend a great deal of time to figure it out.

#12 chdphd

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 15:52

People don't always need Google - just read the thread.

#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 16:01

He's probably the only person who's ever called Dario Franchitti a wanker on live TV. And then there was this at New Hampshire last year ...

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I was quite an admirer of Power up till last season, but he has turned into a rather whiny little so-and-so.

#14 Emery0323

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 16:35

The name "Will Power" doesn't help clarity as it could be a character in Pilgrim's Progress or a comedy show.


I will agree that the name "Will Power" sounds as if it's somebody's weak attempt at a satirical aptonym. However, I have a feeling that if the driver involved had been Scott Dixon (an Indy 500 winner), Ryan Briscoe, Mike Conway, etc. the response might have been similarly quizzical. Castro-Neves and Franchitti no doubt have more name recognition.

My point was that even among the TNF's group of very knowledgeable enthusiasts, the IRL has lapsed into a second-tier spec series of rather parochial interest. Decades ago, I don't think many people would have asked "who's Unser?" or "who's Foyt?", even if they didn't follow IndyCar (then USAC or ChampCar). The presence of F1 winners and champions such as Clark, Hill, Gurney, Andretti, Mansell, Fittipaldi no doubt helped build interest outside of North America. Oh well, At least IRL has Rubens Barrichello :well:

Edited by Emery0323, 18 September 2012 - 16:39.


#15 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 16:39

But it's the Nostalgia Forum. There won't be a lot of recognition of NASCAR or modern F1 either.

#16 Allan Lupton

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 17:13

But it's the Nostalgia Forum. There won't be a lot of recognition of NASCAR or modern F1 either.

Exactly so.
The format of my question (Who was he, and when? ) was as it was because I assumed it was someone from the past I'd not heard of. I don't think I should need to invoke Google when someone posts something on here that I don't understand.
As has been said, the name might well have been a candidate for the racing pseudonyms thread.
Even though I contribute a fair bit here, I have little interest in wholly non-European racing series even those of the past and certainly not the present-day ones.

#17 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 17:17

I was quite an admirer of Power up till last season, but he has turned into a rather whiny little so-and-so.


That's a pity, because I've never known a driver with such an overwhelming desire to be in the car - Will really is a case of "racing is everything, everything else is just waiting" or whatever the cheesy quote is. Sure, perhaps flipping the bird at Barnhart at New Hampshire last year upset some faint hearted people, but recall that it was just after Will had been punted in to the wall on a restart on a wet oval - a ridiculous situation which severely set back his championship campaign. Similarly the Franchitti quote was made just after Dario had knocked him out of the Toronto race, so emotions were running high.

As I say, it's a shame you have the perception of him as being a "whiny so and so" (there are second and third generation IndyCar drivers who fit that description much more accurately), because Will is genuinely a unique personality who is incredibly driven to succeed. Your original instincts were correct.



#18 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 17:28

Even though I contribute a fair bit here, I have little interest in wholly non-European racing series even those of the past and certainly not the present-day ones.


I envy you Allan, because you have the opportunity to learn about a whole new, fantastic parallel universe with drivers like Gurney, Foyt, Unser, Andretti, Hall and Mears - men who deserve just as much respect for their abilities and achievements as the lauded Fangio, Moss, Villeneuve, Chapman, Senna and so on.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 18 September 2012 - 17:35.


#19 Allan Lupton

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 17:51

I envy you Allan, because you have the opportunity to learn about a whole new, fantastic parallel universe with drivers like Gurney, Foyt, Unser, Andretti, Hall and Mears - men who deserve just as much respect for their abilities and achievements as the lauded Fangio, Moss, Villeneuve, Chapman, Senna and so on.

Most of my interest starts with what I could watch, its history and its successors. When the US racers came to Silverstone, whenever it was, they were an interesting bunch but I could never get interested in what went on well out of sight.
When US-style racing was tried at Rockingham I did watch it on the TV and saw no need to do that again as the frequent use of a pace car meant it wasn't real racing.
Some of those you refer to raced in Europe! I've seen Dan Gurney give Porsche it's only two Formula 1 victories, which is something not a lot of folk can say!

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#20 Charlieman

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 17:55

In 2007, McLaren managed to lose two driver's world championships plus the constructors. That's three in a year.

#21 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 17:55

As I say, it's a shame you have the perception of him as being a "whiny so and so" (there are second and third generation IndyCar drivers who fit that description much more accurately), because Will is genuinely a unique personality who is incredibly driven to succeed. Your original instincts were correct.

Yes, I remember watching him in Aussie F3 years ago and figured he'd go far. But as an unashamed Franchitti fan maybe my perception is a bit biased (although I know Option1 shares it - and he's Australian!) Will does need to deal with some of his anger issues though. I'm surprised The Captain hasn't come down heavily on him (or maybe he has and this is the toned down version?)

And he's certainly been outdone in the whinging stakes by a certain World Champion's grandson this year ... ;)

#22 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:16

Most of my interest starts with what I could watch, its history and its successors. When the US racers came to Silverstone, whenever it was, they were an interesting bunch but I could never get interested in what went on well out of sight.
When US-style racing was tried at Rockingham I did watch it on the TV and saw no need to do that again as the frequent use of a pace car meant it wasn't real racing.
Some of those you refer to raced in Europe! I've seen Dan Gurney give Porsche it's only two Formula 1 victories, which is something not a lot of folk can say!


Allan,

indeed many of them did race over here, some of them with a significant degree of success. My point was simply that, if you choose to indulge the interest, there is a tremendous, fascinating history associated with American racing that rewards an inquiring, open mind. Dan Gurney and Mario Andretti's American careers are just as interesting as their European achievements.

I take issue with the assertion that the use of a pace car renders it not "real racing". That's just ignorant rubbish. The use of a pace car is purely and simply to protect marshals as they go about their work after an accident. That in no way devalues the drivers achievements.

Thanks

Nigel

#23 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:17

When US-style racing was tried at Rockingham I did watch it on the TV and saw no need to do that again as the frequent use of a pace car meant it wasn't real racing.


It's not racing, it's called safety.

#24 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:24

And he's certainly been outdone in the whinging stakes by a certain World Champion's grandson this year ...;)


Indeed, indeed.

As for RP's take on it... he was a driver- he has a strong empathy with the drivers (more than the engineers do). He understands that drivers are emotional just after an incident on track. He is less tolerant of people bad-mouthing the team, and Will has never ever done that.

As I say, if you are as exceptionally emotionally engaged with the sheer visceral desire to win as Will is (far more than any other driver I've ever known), then it's slightly easier to understand (though one can't condone) his occasional lapse.


#25 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:30

Power reminds me a lot of Bourdais. Really quite frighteningly quick on road courses, mistake-free, relatively unflustered.

But.

Keep them away from a microphone for 15 minutes after any incident. If you can.

#26 Allan Lupton

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 22:17

I take issue with the assertion that the use of a pace car renders it not "real racing". That's just ignorant rubbish. The use of a pace car is purely and simply to protect marshals as they go about their work after an accident. That in no way devalues the drivers achievements.

I am broad-backed enough not to take offence but when I wrote "Pace Car" I did not mean "Safety Car." It is some time ago, but as I recall it, the race I saw was divided into short sprints artificially, having already been much shortened by the fact that the track surface was damp.

#27 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 22:23

Off the direct subject but is Will Power related to the Power family from Victoria who have been midget racers for many years?

#28 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 22:47

I am broad-backed enough not to take offence but when I wrote "Pace Car" I did not mean "Safety Car." It is some time ago, but as I recall it, the race I saw was divided into short sprints artificially, having already been much shortened by the fact that the track surface was damp.


It's for safety, not for show.

Have you heard of Alex Zanardi? That's what can happen when you have an incident on an oval and cars passing at speed.

#29 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 23:06

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
Off the direct subject but is Will Power related to the Power family from Victoria who have been midget racers for many years?


I'm not sure, Lee, but I think he's the son of Bob Power, who raced F2 etc and emanates from Brisbane.

#30 Risil

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 00:25

Have you heard of Alex Zanardi? That's what can happen when you have an incident on an oval and cars passing at speed.


It's not wholly relevant, but the Rockingham race we're discussing took place only a week after Zanardi's accident (11 years ago now... time flies). IIRC the problem at Rockingham additionally was "weepers" -- water from previous rain showers was seeping through to the surface of the track, even though conditions were dry.

There's perfectly justifiable criticism to be made of the practice of allowing cars to form up behind the safety car, eliminating any leads that've been built up. And given that on most ovals the racing only gets going when the leaders start to encounter lapped traffic, even the idea that it improves the show is debatable. But to suggest that it's caution periods in themselves that are against the spirit of fair competition, is getting the effect mixed up with the cause (at least in modern open-wheel racing).

As for Will Power, wasn't it Derrick Walker who brought him across to America with the Aussie Vineyards Champ Car team? I assume the recommendation from an old Penske associate came in handy when the Captain needed someone to fill in for Castroneves in 2009.

#31 Falcadore

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:19

In two out of three of those 'losses' the victor was the same guy, so I don't think Power has any jinx. And Hunter-Reay won more races this year. I think a better way to look at it is Power has been in the title fight in the last round of all three of his Penske seasons.

Falcadore even if Vegas had counted last year, Power loses. He was caught up in the accident.


I cannot think of any circumstances where that race might have counted. My "shameful" comment was more along the lines that Indycar in their press releases have started to back track the series and state the second last round in 2011 was now actually the last round, writing it as if the Las Vegas race hadn't happenned at all. It's factually wrong and insulting to Dan Wheldon's memory. Indycar said in their press material this month this was the third year in a row Power led the points coming into the final round and describing the 2011 Kentucky race as the final round. Just distasteful.

As mentioned elsewhere above his teammate had a similarly narrow loss the previous year. Power's words were that the team were jinxed on ovals not him generally.

Off the direct subject but is Will Power related to the Power family from Victoria who have been midget racers for many years?


Will is the son of Queensland open-wheel veteran Bob Power, who has a career racing open wheelers that started in the 60s, that hasn't stopped yet. A front runner in Australian Formula 2 during its resurgent hey-days of the 1980s in a Kaditcha, then a Ralt, he goes back as far as Holden grey motor specials and is still racing today, using a 2006 Mygale to teach the youngsters of Queensland Formula Ford which way to go.

His Mygale is a colour scheme look-alike of Will's 2011 Dallara IR5. He's brilliant.

I'm not sure, Lee, but I think he's the son of Bob Power, who raced F2 etc and emanates from Brisbane.


Towoomba Ray, not Brisbane.

As for Will Power, wasn't it Derrick Walker who brought him across to America with the Aussie Vineyards Champ Car team? I assume the recommendation from an old Penske associate came in handy when the Captain needed someone to fill in for Castroneves in 2009.


Yep. Joined Walker Racing in late ;05 as the relationship between the team and Marcus Marshall was breaking down and Will had run our of cash to support a World Series Renault bid with Carlin Motorsport but in the meantime gave A1 Team Australia its best race finish in A1 Grand Prix in a pretty dismal history of that team. Did the '06 and '07 seasons with Walker picking up a couple of wins before joining KV Racing in 08 for the merged championship, winning the last Champ Car race at Long Beach '08.

He had a second place in his second race for the Captain in '09 and had won a race before the end of the year then cracked his back shunting at Sonoma, hitting an unsighted spun car. He's won 15 races in three and a half seasons at Penske, but only one on an oval.

Edited by Falcadore, 19 September 2012 - 08:54.


#32 ellrosso

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:32

Here are a couple of shots of Will from his F Ford days in 2000 and 2001. The shot from 2001 is Will about to put the boot into his car after retiring
from the Championship decider at Oran Park. His arch rival, Will Davison won the series final after battling all year with Power. He (Power) was not a happy boy!
As you say Nigel, he's very passionate about his racing - real top shelf driver too. Would have loved to see him in F1.

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#33 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:32

As for Will Power, wasn't it Derrick Walker who brought him across to America with the Aussie Vineyards Champ Car team? I assume the recommendation from an old Penske associate came in handy when the Captain needed someone to fill in for Castroneves in 2009.


That's exactly what happened - Walker advocated him very strongly to Penske.

#34 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:36

I'm not sure, Lee, but I think he's the son of Bob Power, who raced F2 etc .


Yes, his father came to Indianapolis in 2009 to see the race. I was interested to learn from him that when Will first came to Europe he worked with Barry Locke, who I had known back in the early Seventies when he was a fabricator at McLaren, before going back to Australia. Small world...

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 19 September 2012 - 08:38.


#35 Falcadore

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:17

Bob Power's new car, a 2008 (not 06 as said above) Mygale.

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Yes, his father came to Indianapolis in 2009 to see the race. I was interested to learn from him that when Will first came to Europe he worked with Barry Locke, who I had known back in the early Seventies when he was a fabricator at McLaren, before going back to Australia. Small world...


Barry Lock's worked with a lot of people in Queensland motor racing. He was still designing new racecars as late as the late 1990s/early 2000s. This was his last.

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Edited by Falcadore, 19 September 2012 - 09:26.


#36 Spaceframe

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 09:29

I find it hard to believe that two people who know how to post on the Autosport website forum would ask "who is Will Power." They may be aware of Google and other search methods and could find the answer for themselves. Or they are just asking a rhetorical question to forward jabs at the Indy Car series, per usual.

Actually not - the question was indeed rhetorical, as I seem to recall a rap singer by that name, but not aimed at North American open-wheeled racing. However, I've completely lost track with North American open-wheeled racing. The races aren't available through my cable-tv, and the sad - and ill-advised - split between CART and Indianapolis certainly hasn't encouraged me to make research into the present day Indy Car series a main priority.

#37 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 09:52

Actually not - the question was indeed rhetorical, as I seem to recall a rap singer by that name, but not aimed at North American open-wheeled racing. However, I've completely lost track with North American open-wheeled racing. The races aren't available through my cable-tv, and the sad - and ill-advised - split between CART and Indianapolis certainly hasn't encouraged me to make research into the present day Indy Car series a main priority.

The (lack of) coverage all over Europe is a problem. In Britain Sky hide it away on Sky Sports 4, so it's not available on cable packages, which only offer SS1 & 2. There's actually been some very good racing this year - even on the road courses like Barber, which is normally a snoozefest - and most of the races show here in a reasonable early Sunday evening time slot. However, I do draw the line at staying awake all Saturday night to watch an evening race on an oval ... :yawnface: :yawnface:

#38 Emery0323

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:11

The (lack of) coverage all over Europe is a problem. In Britain Sky hide it away on Sky Sports 4, so it's not available on cable packages, which only offer SS1 & 2. There's actually been some very good racing this year - even on the road courses like Barber, which is normally a snoozefest - and most of the races show here in a reasonable early Sunday evening time slot.


Even on home turf here in the USA, Most of the IRL races have, in recent years, been covered by the NBC's subsidiary NBC Sports Network (NBCSN), or else by the Versus network. Those channels are not available on basic cable TV and require overpriced decoder box rentals and upgraded service packages.

This is a major drop in availability from years ago, when most of the CART/USAC/Indycar races could have been seen in the USA for free on the broadcast networks. Of course, the Indy 500 is still covered on by a major network broadcast for free, but it's no surprise that IRL drivers have far poorer name recognition than their NASCAR counterparts, for example. As I mentioned before, names like Foyt/Andretti/Unser/Mears never had the name-recognition problems that Will Power, Scott Dixon, Ryan Briscoe, et al. do.