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Life & Death of Great Constructors


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#1 Nustang70

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:18

I was thinking about how the fortunes of some of the classic F1 teams have waxed and waned, and decided to study it a bit. This chart indicates the percentage of available Constructors Championship points for each of the teams displayed.
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Anyway, the following is a key, in case you can't read the small writing:

From bottom to top:
Blue: Ferrari
Orange: Lotus
Yellow: Brabham
Green: Mclaren
Burgundy: Tyrrell
Light Blue: Williams
Dark Green: The Enstone team (Toleman, Benetton, Renault, Lotus GP)
Green-Yellow: Other

Note: I reinstated Mclaren's 2007 points. I did this for 2 reasons: first, it would have skewed the data since Mclaren's finishing positions weren't wiped from the record the way Tyrrell's were in 1984, bumping lower teams up the finishing order; and second, the FIA didn't strip Mclaren's drivers of their points, which suggested the disqualification was due to politics rather than cheating in a manner than made the championships objectionably unfair.

Life & Death of F1 Constructors

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#2 joshb

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:30

Very interesting :up:
and the big spike in 2002. Ferrari = 221pts, the rest put together = 221pts

#3 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:31

Very interesting :up:
and the big spike in 2002. Ferrari = 221pts, the rest put together = 221pts


Hate to say it since involves teams and drivers I didn't like at that time.
But I think that the graph doesn't show cleary what McLaren did in in 88: 199 points out of a total of 400, just a whisker below what Ferrari did in 2002.

edit: in fact: in 1988 a winner got only 9 points instead of 10 as in 2002. So if we apply 2002 scores on 1988 McLaren had 214 out of a possible 416 ....

I hate to say it but if we applaud Ferrari's 2002 achievement then we must acknowledge: We've seen something like that before: in 1988. Credit when credit is due.

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 September 2012 - 10:46.


#4 aditya-now

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:35

From bottom to top:
Blue: Ferrari
Orange: Lotus
Yellow: Brabham
Green: Mclaren
Burgundy: Tyrrell
Light Blue: Williams
Dark Green: The Enstone team (Toleman, Benetton, Renault, Lotus GP)
Green-Yellow: Other


Excellent, thanks a lot!

For recent years, of course, two teams would be interesting to still include: The Milton Keynes team (Stewart GP - Jaguar - Red Bull Racing) and the Brackley team (Tyrrell – BAR – Honda – Brawn - Mercedes) which is included in Burgundy, but sadly discontinued after the end of its Honda incarnation. This would make the picture still more complete.

Yet, wonderful work, very visual and very telling.

Edited by aditya-now, 18 September 2012 - 10:37.


#5 aditya-now

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:36

Hate to say it since involves teams and drivers I didn't like at that time.

Henri



You don't like Alain Prost, Henri?

#6 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:47

You don't like Alain Prost, Henri?


Not anymore since France 1982 .

Henri

#7 aditya-now

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 16:34

Not anymore since France 1982 .

Henri


I see, you became a René Arnoux fan then and there!

On the topic: the title is slightly misleading, as we don't see Colin Chapman's demise or Enzo Ferrari's demise being reflected here. Obviously many people don't look into this thread, although it is highly interesting - to change the title ("the fat and meagre years of Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus etc" - my humble proposal) is not an option?


#8 joshb

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 17:34

Hate to say it since involves teams and drivers I didn't like at that time.
But I think that the graph doesn't show cleary what McLaren did in in 88: 199 points out of a total of 400, just a whisker below what Ferrari did in 2002.

edit: in fact: in 1988 a winner got only 9 points instead of 10 as in 2002. So if we apply 2002 scores on 1988 McLaren had 214 out of a possible 416 ....

I hate to say it but if we applaud Ferrari's 2002 achievement then we must acknowledge: We've seen something like that before: in 1988. Credit when credit is due.

Henri


thats a very fair call, and a remarkable achievement given that the cars then were not quite as reliable as those in 2002.

#9 Nustang70

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 20:07

Hate to say it since involves teams and drivers I didn't like at that time.
But I think that the graph doesn't show cleary what McLaren did in in 88: 199 points out of a total of 400, just a whisker below what Ferrari did in 2002.

edit: in fact: in 1988 a winner got only 9 points instead of 10 as in 2002. So if we apply 2002 scores on 1988 McLaren had 214 out of a possible 416 ....

I hate to say it but if we applaud Ferrari's 2002 achievement then we must acknowledge: We've seen something like that before: in 1988. Credit when credit is due.

Henri


Take another look at the chart. Mclaren's color band stretches from 20% to 70% in 1988, equaling Ferrari's achievement in 2002. And as you've noted, Mclaren scoring half of the total points in slightly more significant because of the points allocation: in 1988, a team could score a max of 15 points (9 for 1st, 6 for 2cd) out of a possible 25, which makes the absolute limit 60%. In 2002, a team could score a max of 16 points out of 26, making the absolute limit 61.5%. Therefore, Mclaren has a slightly smaller share of the total points to work with.

After the points distribution was spread further down the finishing order to 8 in 2003, such dominance was no longer possible. For example, Ferrari dominated in 2004, but their theoretical max each GP was only 46% of the total points.


#10 Henri Greuter

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:21

Take another look at the chart. Mclaren's color band stretches from 20% to 70% in 1988, equaling Ferrari's achievement in 2002. And as you've noted, Mclaren scoring half of the total points in slightly more significant because of the points allocation: in 1988, a team could score a max of 15 points (9 for 1st, 6 for 2cd) out of a possible 25, which makes the absolute limit 60%. In 2002, a team could score a max of 16 points out of 26, making the absolute limit 61.5%. Therefore, Mclaren has a slightly smaller share of the total points to work with.

After the points distribution was spread further down the finishing order to 8 in 2003, such dominance was no longer possible. For example, Ferrari dominated in 2004, but their theoretical max each GP was only 46% of the total points.



Right.
To give a true reflection of how efficient a team was in a year, it's best to look to the % of points the team scored from the maximum number of points the team could score: thus the points to be earned by a full season of nothing else but double victories.

Remarakbly enough, if you exclude the 5 starts of the F2001 in 2002 and only look to the results scored with the F2002, then the %'s for the F2002 come very close to that for the MP4/4 and in some aspects even betters the McLaren records.
The downfall for F2002 is that on two occasions Rubens couldn't even start the race, thus 0 points 0 laps etc. Had the car started the race then likely more alltime records set by the MP4/4 had been bettered by the F2002.

But in defence for the F2002: That car was up against an entire field of cars designed for the 2002 season. The MP4/4 faced only one brandnew designed turbocharged opponent (Lotus) while all other turbocharged cars were stopgap modifications of last years car while most of the atmo carse were also nothing more but stop gap cars in anticipation for the new rules valid from 1989 on. F2002 faced serious opposition designed according the same rules as F2002, MP4/4 not really and therefor had it so much easier to dominate as long as reliability was good. Which is was.

Henri


henri


#11 Henri Greuter

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:37

I see, you became a René Arnoux fan then and there!

On the topic: the title is slightly misleading, as we don't see Colin Chapman's demise or Enzo Ferrari's demise being reflected here. Obviously many people don't look into this thread, although it is highly interesting - to change the title ("the fat and meagre years of Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus etc" - my humble proposal) is not an option?



No, I had more sympathy for Rene at the time already then I had for Prost.
Never a genuine fan of Rene but he was OK for me.

If you insist on knowing more about my personal preferences other then the one you know already....

henri

#12 taran

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:38

As much as I like stats, wouldn´t it be more interesting to describe why teams did well or not and why some teams declined to the point of oblivion?

#13 sopa

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:50

I find the fluctuations of Enstone intriguing. Highs in mid-90's and mid-00's. Going by the chart they are again on an upward swing - so perhaps mid-10's they'll be at the top again?

#14 aditya-now

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:20

I find the fluctuations of Enstone intriguing. Highs in mid-90's and mid-00's. Going by the chart they are again on an upward swing - so perhaps mid-10's they'll be at the top again?


Nustang 70, I am still wondering if you could include

- the Tyrrell team beyond 2008 (Brawn GP, Mercedes GP)

- the Milton Keynes team from 1997 up till now (Stewart GP, Jaguar, Red Bull Racing)

In this way you would have the most important teams represented. :D

#15 Nustang70

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 19:10

Nustang 70, I am still wondering if you could include

- the Tyrrell team beyond 2008 (Brawn GP, Mercedes GP)

- the Milton Keynes team from 1997 up till now (Stewart GP, Jaguar, Red Bull Racing)

In this way you would have the most important teams represented. :D


Yeah, I can add them. However, I think the Brackley outfit (BAR, Honda, Brawn, Mercedes) ought to be its own entry. As I understand it, there wasn't much continuity between Tyrrell & BAR. Plus, the team now does not claim Tyrrell as part of its lineage, unlike the Enstone team that describes itself as having gone through a series of iterations dating back to the Toleman days.


#16 aditya-now

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 22:26

Yeah, I can add them. However, I think the Brackley outfit (BAR, Honda, Brawn, Mercedes) ought to be its own entry. As I understand it, there wasn't much continuity between Tyrrell & BAR. Plus, the team now does not claim Tyrrell as part of its lineage, unlike the Enstone team that describes itself as having gone through a series of iterations dating back to the Toleman days.


Very sensible - it is true about the discontinuity between Tyrrell and BAR. Sad Harvey Postlethwaite died and did not carry over into Honda/unite Tyrrell and Honda history - would have been a very different team.

The Milton Keynes team is a genuine entity, though.

#17 Myrvold

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 22:42

But is it a bit to early to include the MK team? I mean, at least Enstone team has been there for over a quarter of a decade. Milton Keynes team is 15 years old this season. Titles are won, but, not a classic "great constructor".

#18 Nustang70

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 23:27

But is it a bit to early to include the MK team? I mean, at least Enstone team has been there for over a quarter of a decade. Milton Keynes team is 15 years old this season. Titles are won, but, not a classic "great constructor".


That is why I didn't include either team intially. Still, it doesn't hurt to create another chart with them in. Any other teams I should add? I was thinking about BRM, and possibly Ligier.

#19 aditya-now

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 13:05

That is why I didn't include either team intially. Still, it doesn't hurt to create another chart with them in. Any other teams I should add? I was thinking about BRM, and possibly Ligier.


Probably all the teams who were for a sizeable length of time (e.g. a decade) in any of their incarnations a Top 5 team. Otherwise the chart would remain incomplete.

Of course, the Milton Keynes team is only Top 5 for a few years, but still the chart is incomplete without the WDC/WCC in any of the years it represents.


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#20 Myrvold

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 16:44

Every single WDC/WCC team? That might be too much to get a clear picture I think.

Oh, english is far from my first (or second) language. Is decade 10 years? If so, quarter of a decade is wrong for the "Enstone team" (ref. my last post). But what is 100years called then? :p

#21 sumpthy

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 17:01

Every single WDC/WCC team? That might be too much to get a clear picture I think.

Oh, english is far from my first (or second) language. Is decade 10 years? If so, quarter of a decade is wrong for the "Enstone team" (ref. my last post). But what is 100years called then? :p


Century.

#22 spacekid

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 18:18

Interesting stats! Good effort Nustang70.

I find the peaks and troughs for how many points are achieved by the major players, or 'other' interesting. In the late 80's if you weren't an established manufacturer you weren't getting anything.

#23 Myrvold

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 19:16

Century.


Thanks! :)

And that ends the Off-Topic from me :)

#24 Nustang70

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 22:37

Here's an updated chart including the Milton Keynes (Stewart, Jaguar, Red Bull) and Brackley (BAR, Honda, Brawn, Mercedes) outfits.

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