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McLaren is no longer a top team (funding wise) [split]


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#1 ZooL

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:41

I've come to the conclusion that McLaren are not a big team anymore funding wise. They can no longer afford Alonso and Hamilton wages, and probably Vettel's next wage demands too.

McLaren will also have to pay £8million starting next year for their engines, so thats another big financial loss to them.

I also think McLaren made a mistake in giving Button a pay rise less than 12 months ago and now asking Hamilton to take a pay cut.

For me, McLaren cannot afford top 3 drivers anymore. They would be better served trying to find another unknown with potential like they did with Raikkonen and Hamilton.

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#2 pacificquay

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:49

I've come to the conclusion that McLaren are not a big team anymore funding wise. They can no longer afford Alonso and Hamilton wages, and probably Vettel's next wage demands too.

McLaren will also have to pay £8million starting next year for their engines, so thats another big financial loss to them.

I also think McLaren made a mistake in giving Button a pay rise less than 12 months ago and now asking Hamilton to take a pay cut.

For me, McLaren cannot afford top 3 drivers anymore. They would be better served trying to find another unknown with potential like they did with Raikkonen and Hamilton.




Your hatred for McLaren knows no limits.

This is simply nonsense.

#3 JRizzle86

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:50

Your hatred for McLaren knows no limits.

This is simply nonsense.


It's fun to read though.

#4 Lazy

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:59

I've come to the conclusion that McLaren are not a big team anymore funding wise. They can no longer afford Alonso and Hamilton wages, and probably Vettel's next wage demands too.

McLaren will also have to pay £8million starting next year for their engines, so thats another big financial loss to them.

I also think McLaren made a mistake in giving Button a pay rise less than 12 months ago and now asking Hamilton to take a pay cut.

For me, McLaren cannot afford top 3 drivers anymore. They would be better served trying to find another unknown with potential like they did with Raikkonen and Hamilton.


If they were so short of money why did they give Jenson a pay rise?

Face facts, they just don't think Hamilton is worth the big money.

#5 Showty

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 11:04

I've come to the conclusion that McLaren are not a big team anymore funding wise. They can no longer afford Alonso and Hamilton wages, and probably Vettel's next wage demands too.

McLaren will also have to pay £8million starting next year for their engines, so thats another big financial loss to them.

I also think McLaren made a mistake in giving Button a pay rise less than 12 months ago and now asking Hamilton to take a pay cut.

For me, McLaren cannot afford top 3 drivers anymore. They would be better served trying to find another unknown with potential like they did with Raikkonen and Hamilton.


I think they can afford a top driver, but they don´t want to pay those kind of salaries anymore given the current situation, perhaps they want to invest that extra money in some other areas.



#6 Brandz07

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:44

The team won the last 3 races, yet aren't classed as a top team because they're not paying ridiculous wages? :lol:

#7 Fastcake

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:46

Be nice to see what you are basing this on. I am taking it you've merged together a mixture of rumours and your own speculation to come up with the idea McLaren have no money left.

#8 speng

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:47

If they were so short of money why did they give Jenson a pay rise?

Face facts, they just don't think Hamilton is worth the big money.

:lol: :lol:


#9 Peter Perfect

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:52

Be nice to see what you are basing this on. I am taking it you've merged together a mixture of rumours and your own speculation to come up with the idea McLaren have no money left.

:up:

A truly bizarre statement to make.

#10 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:58

I've come to the conclusion that McLaren are not a big team anymore funding wise. They can no longer afford Alonso and Hamilton wages, and probably Vettel's next wage demands too.

McLaren will also have to pay £8million starting next year for their engines, so thats another big financial loss to them.

I also think McLaren made a mistake in giving Button a pay rise less than 12 months ago and now asking Hamilton to take a pay cut.

For me, McLaren cannot afford top 3 drivers anymore. They would be better served trying to find another unknown with potential like they did with Raikkonen and Hamilton.

I see what you mean.

But by this standard it makes BAR and Jaguar to be the most elite teams in F1 at the time.;)

Definitely with needing to pay huge fine and needing to buy back Mercedes-Benz share of the team by not receiving any sponsorship for their Mercedes logo (my understanding), McLaren do not have as much money as they could have. Certainly they are not poor and are amongst the best teams for development over a season.

They could pay crazy salaries but chose not to... It is up to Hamilton to chose if he wants to stay. Else I am sure they can sign Perez or Hulkenberg who will be happy to drive for $1 (ok maybe actually $500,000 -- a lot of money but much less than average midfield NASCAR driver) if they can get a race winning McLaren. And maybe Perez is equally good as Hamilton?? Who knows.



Red Bull have to pay for engines too. But they put a big Infiniti sign to cover the costs of the Renault. (Talk about nutty) I am not sure if Mercedes will be impressed if McLaren carries large Volvo signage, maybe 'smartcar' signage to keep it in the mercedes family for instance... :stoned:

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 21 September 2012 - 13:01.


#11 jeze

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 13:07

Red Bull pay Vettel a joke of a salary but built him a rocketship of a car since they invested all their money on that. It's hard to find Hamilton's out there but if they lose him they might strike lucky with someone. The difference between McLaren and Ferrari on that front, is that, since Ferrari have greater salaries to spend on drivers they can afford to wait to see how young guns do in other teams before they can get theirs.

If they lose Hamilton they'll be fine if they can find a youngster who'll settle well into the team and being quick. That's the difference between F1 and Premier League - because in other sports the athlete is the sole perfomance differentiator.



#12 JRizzle86

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 13:08

I see what you mean.

But by this standard it makes BAR and Jaguar to be the most elite teams in F1 at the time.;)

Definitely with needing to pay huge fine and needing to buy back Mercedes-Benz share of the team by not receiving any sponsorship for their Mercedes logo (my understanding), McLaren do not have as much money as they could have. Certainly they are not poor and are amongst the best teams for development over a season.

They could pay crazy salaries but chose not to... It is up to Hamilton to chose if he wants to stay. Else I am sure they can sign Perez or Hulkenberg who will be happy to drive for $1 (ok maybe actually $500,000 -- a lot of money but much less than average midfield NASCAR driver) if they can get a race winning McLaren. And maybe Perez is equally good as Hamilton?? Who knows.



Red Bull have to pay for engines too. But they put a big Infiniti sign to cover the costs of the Renault. (Talk about nutty) I am not sure if Mercedes will be impressed if McLaren carries large Volvo signage, maybe 'smartcar' signage to keep it in the mercedes family for instance... :stoned:


I think people under-estimate the relationship McLaren and Mercedes still have. I have no idea to the financial connections but Mercedes remain a partner with McLaren and there is a reason their branding remains on the car and overalls. Mercedes may seek greater success up the grid but they benefit every time a Mercedes engined McLaren driver stands on the top step of the podium. McLaren are well placed to continue that relationship and it is a credit to both the McLaren cars and the Mercedes engines that it has existed since 95.

#13 P123

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 13:11

If they were so short of money why did they give Jenson a pay rise?

Face facts, they just don't think Hamilton is worth the big money.


He is probably still being offered more than JB is on, if that is what you and Zool will be basing your imminent bitchfest on.

As for the topic..... :rolleyes:

#14 Zava

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 13:14

so they're not a top team anymore? better go and tell them ASAP, if they get this knowledge they'll probably won't go on to win their 4th race in a row, that would nicely help the odds of my drivers. :wave: thanks in advance.

@V8: I think the infiniti deal was based on a renault-nissan cooperation, they wanted to use red bull to bring the infiniti brand in to europe. not exactly the same as mclaren randomly putting volvo on their car... :)

#15 AMG FAN

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 13:21

I've come to the conclusion that McLaren are not a big team anymore funding wise. They can no longer afford Alonso and Hamilton wages, and probably Vettel's next wage demands too.

McLaren will also have to pay £8million starting next year for their engines, so thats another big financial loss to them.

I also think McLaren made a mistake in giving Button a pay rise less than 12 months ago and now asking Hamilton to take a pay cut.

For me, McLaren cannot afford top 3 drivers anymore. They would be better served trying to find another unknown with potential like they did with Raikkonen and Hamilton.

Mclaren are the 40th most valuable team in the world and second most valuable race team after Ferrari,their value is put at $800 million...yep not a top team. :rolleyes:

#16 rijole1

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 13:26

I think Jenson got his raise because he was paid a lot less than Hamilton.
Now he's being paid less, but not so much less.

And Mclarens current offer gives Hamilton at least as much money as to Button.
Probably more.


#17 Timstr11

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 13:39

I do believe it is true that McLaren do have quite a bit less to spend compared to RedBull and Ferrarri.
And they will have even less to spend with the engine bills as of 2013 (will be even higher as of the new 2014 engine) and the possible reduction in sponsor income (Vodafone).

Companies like Redbull, Ferrari or Mercedes have the mother companies to foot the bill for driver salaries.
McLaren are yet to have the size and profits of these companies in order to to afford big salaries. Just my impression.

#18 Absulute

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 13:43

Holy hell.

This isn't your genuine feeling, is it? It's got to be a wind-up?

#19 george1981

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 13:45

I think McLaren are still a top team BUT with losing manufacturing support they could be on a downward slope in the next few years.
If you look at Williams, they dominated the early and mid 90s with Renault but then once they lost manufacturer support they struggled for a few years until they recovered with BMW factory engines. They didn't repeat their earlier success and lost BMW. Williams then suffered a gradual loss in performance year on year until 2011 when they were terrible, only beating the new teams. They've bounced back this year but still aren't the once feared team they were.
Without manufacturer backing McLaren could follow a similar trend. In F1 success breads success, i.e. more prize money and sponsorship money, if the results slip its hard to reverse the trend.

From what I've read, Button is meant to be on £12m a year and Hamilton is currently on £15m a year. Hamilton has allegedly been asked to take a signifcant paycut, which may bring his salary down to the level of Button's or lower. That's a big kick in the ego for anyone especially a racing driver who needs self confidence to perform.

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#20 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 14:44

:rotfl: @ the thread and the gif's

McLaren will still be a top player for years to come I expect, frankly your entire basis for this is the Hamilton contract rumours so you are standing on ice so thin it was already cracking before you plonked your rather dim witted self on top of it.

#21 noikeee

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 14:54

I agree there's a risk they could go downhill with the new Merc engines tailor made for the competitor Merc team, plus the cash they'll have to pay for them and the rumored diminished Vodafone sponsorship have clearly taken a dent in the financial side of things, as the Lewis money struggle shows. They just won the last 3 races though, so at this moment are very much a top team and this thread is complete nonsense.

#22 SpaMaster

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 15:41

I've come to the conclusion that McLaren are not a big team anymore funding wise. They can no longer afford Alonso and Hamilton wages, and probably Vettel's next wage demands too.

McLaren will also have to pay £8million starting next year for their engines, so thats another big financial loss to them.

I also think McLaren made a mistake in giving Button a pay rise less than 12 months ago and now asking Hamilton to take a pay cut.

For me, McLaren cannot afford top 3 drivers anymore. They would be better served trying to find another unknown with potential like they did with Raikkonen and Hamilton.

Extra 8 million pounds for engine from next year is another reason? What other reasons did you mention? Or, is the extra 8 million pound alone makes them not a top team anymore? :cat:

Edited by SpaMaster, 21 September 2012 - 15:42.


#23 Rakaman

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 15:55

how could this thread reach 2nd page without getting locked....:confused:


The internet is a magical and mysterious place.

#24 ali.unal

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 15:55

how could this thread reach 2nd page without getting locked....:confused:

Can you see the word [split] in the title? That means it was the moderators in the first place who created this thread out of that post. As silly as the assessment of OP is, I see no reason to be locked as everyone is entitled to his opinion. If you don't agree with it, explain it so. If you don't want to explain, don't visit either. Why demand locking?

By the way, I would like to stress that the social lynch going on here is a bit unsettling. Just saying.

Edited by ali.unal, 21 September 2012 - 16:04.


#25 03011969

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 16:03

Ridiculous. Of course McLaren remain *a* top team.

They just haven't been *the* top team for, er, 14 years.

#26 MightyMoose

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 16:28

Can you see the word [split] in the title? That means it was the moderators in the first place who created this thread out of that post. As silly as the assessment of OP is, I see no reason to be locked as everyone is entitled to his opinion. If you don't agree with it, explain it so. If you don't want to explain, don't visit either. Why demand locking?


Speaking as a MOD, not the one who split it though. This statement above is ALL you need to understand.

The rules are out there, you all agreed to them when you signed up. Reading this thread and seeing some of the comments for/against the MODERATORS makes me think some of you need to go back and re-read them.

Just to be explicitly clear on this: Discussing Moderation on the forum is a big no-no. Don't do it. We can all read and we DO check reports & direct PMs. IF you ever have a problem with a post/thread or Moderation, you report/ignore/PM a Mod. After that, we deal with it how we see fit taking into consideration what, if any rules it's breached.

Outrageous opinions aren't kicked out, they're knocked off. The OP has an extreme view, many of you can argue an entirely different viewpoint. That is the merit of a forum board is it not? Go ahead & debate the post, not the poster.

Thanks

#27 garoidb

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 17:02

Ridiculous. Of course McLaren remain *a* top team.

They just haven't been *the* top team for, er, 14 years.


They are now.

McLaren are undoubtedly a top team in 2012. The more interesting question (and what I think the OP was getting at) is whether they are about to enter a decline, as the close partnership with Mercedes winds down and they become a customer team (like Williams did, for example). Personally, I don't think so because there is so much engineering capability which is McLaren rather than Mercedes.

On the other hand, perhaps the OP meant that McLaren is becoming a team who won't pay top dollar for a driver, or enter a bidding war for one. This could certainly be the case.



#28 Brandz07

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 17:09

They are now.

McLaren are undoubtedly a top team in 2012. The more interesting question (and what I think the OP was getting at) is whether they are about to enter a decline, as the close partnership with Mercedes winds down and they become a customer team (like Williams did, for example). Personally, I don't think so because there is so much engineering capability which is McLaren rather than Mercedes.

On the other hand, perhaps the OP meant that McLaren is becoming a team who won't pay top dollar for a driver, or enter a bidding war for one. This could certainly be the case.


Half a season of kinda being the fastest team doesn't mean they're the top team.

#29 Seanspeed

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 17:36

I should be surprised by such a ridiculous topic, but after reading this board a bit more lately, its actually quite in line with a lot of other delusional or overly dramatic beliefs that people seem to hold.

People seem to be losing their mind as the season picks up to its climax.

#30 rijole1

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 17:44

Half a season of kinda being the fastest team doesn't mean they're the top team.



There are many teams that have had a fast car earlier this year.
Who has being fastest, has changed from race to race

You can also say that a top team is a team, that wins championships.

McLaren is a great team, but it's some time ago they won WCC.

Edited by rijole1, 21 September 2012 - 17:46.


#31 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 17:49

I should be surprised by such a ridiculous topic, but after reading this board a bit more lately, its actually quite in line with a lot of other delusional or overly dramatic beliefs that people seem to hold.

I don't see why it is ridiculous or delusional. The OP isn't saying McLaren aren't a top team, he's saying financially they aren't as strong as they used to be. I think he's saying a fair amount of sense, as McLaren's situation seems to be similar to Arsenal. Arsenal are a top team, but they don't spend anywhere near the other top teams like Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea etc. as they don't want to spend beyond their means.

#32 rijole1

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 17:52

I've come to the conclusion that McLaren are not a big team anymore funding wise. They can no longer afford Alonso and Hamilton wages, and probably Vettel's next wage demands too.

McLaren will also have to pay £8million starting next year for their engines, so thats another big financial loss to them.

I also think McLaren made a mistake in giving Button a pay rise less than 12 months ago and now asking Hamilton to take a pay cut.

For me, McLaren cannot afford top 3 drivers anymore. They would be better served trying to find another unknown with potential like they did with Raikkonen and Hamilton.


From your post I get the impression that you define a team with most money and recourses as a top team.
Maybe I got it totally wrong?
Is there some more qualifications that must be fullfilled of a team, if they want to be called a top team?
If yes, what are these qualifications according to you?

#33 Seanspeed

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 17:55

I don't see why it is ridiculous or delusional. The OP isn't saying McLaren aren't a top team, he's saying financially they aren't as strong as they used to be. I think he's saying a fair amount of sense, as McLaren's situation seems to be similar to Arsenal. Arsenal are a top team, but they don't spend anywhere near the other top teams like Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea etc. as they don't want to spend beyond their means.

His assumption is based on such paper-thin reasoning that it really cant be taken seriously.

Pretty sure Mclaren are one of the strongest teams in the field, financially.

#34 spacekid

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 18:06

Yes it is.

Misleading thread title though. The point is - do McLaren have the funds to match Ferrari, Red Bull and maybe Mercedes in terms of pay.

I actually don't know the answer to that. Before ridiculing the poster, has anyone got any financial data to back this up? I don't really know what the teams budgets or funding are, and I don't really understand how much of the drivers pay packet comes from sponsorship deals either. I also don't entirely understand how much these teams are truly receiving from Concorde in relation to one another.

Perhaps ultimately Alonso's and Hamilton's relative pay comes down to how much companies like Santander and Vodafone want to pay to have a particular driver associated with their brand? Maybe McLaren doesn't have as good sponsorship deals as Ferrari?

It isn't a ridiculous question to ask.

For what its worth I strongly suspect they are in a position to offer Hamilton a competitive wage packet to retain his services, and one that there would be no shame in him receiving if he also wanted to keep working with a team of such enormous pedigree.

#35 Anonymous

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 18:07

I actually don't know the answer to that. Before ridiculing the poster, has anyone got any financial data to back this up?


McLaren and Ferrari have the largest budgets. Red Bull is not far behind. Then Lotus, Mercedes, Williams, Force India, Sauber, ...

But this thread is just too stupid, I don't know why I'm posting here.

Edited by Buttoneer, 21 September 2012 - 22:57.


#36 spacekid

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 18:08

From your post I get the impression that you define a team with most money and recourses as a top team.
Maybe I got it totally wrong?
Is there some more qualifications that must be fullfilled of a team, if they want to be called a top team?
If yes, what are these qualifications according to you?


I think we can blame this on the thread title that the mod created when splitting the topic. To me the text of the post clearly refers to financial clout in the driver market only.

#37 johnmhinds

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 18:18

I think we can blame this on the thread title that the mod created when splitting the topic. To me the text of the post clearly refers to financial clout in the driver market only.


But that's the dumb part of his post?

It isn't that Mclaren don't have the kind of money that Hamilton is probably asking for, they just have more sense than to just pay it without having a deal that makes it worth their while.

If Hamilton wants to do less events for the sponsors he'll have to man up and settle for less money, simple as that.

#38 rijole1

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 18:19

I think we can blame this on the thread title that the mod created when splitting the topic. To me the text of the post clearly refers to financial clout in the driver market only.


Yeah, I also got the impression that the post is more about which teams are financially strongest.

Definition of a top team is an other interesting issue for a debate... :)

#39 techspeed

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 18:47

On the other hand, perhaps the OP meant that McLaren is becoming a team who won't pay top dollar for a driver, or enter a bidding war for one. This could certainly be the case.

Certain Hamilton fans give the impression they believe Hamilton is the greatest driver that ever lived, capable of driving faster than anyone else. Therefore they expect Hamilton to be able to be paid more than anyone else, even Alonso. They believe if McLaren is a top team should be able to pay whatever Hamilton demands.

Unfortunately they don't figure that the only reason Alonso is paid so much more is because Santander pays his wages by sponsoring Ferrari for a huge amount of money to cover the cost, and it's down to his marketability not his speed. Hamilton could demand whatever he wants, if he can get a sponsor to pay it for him.

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#40 garoidb

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 19:06

Certain Hamilton fans give the impression they believe Hamilton is the greatest driver that ever lived, capable of driving faster than anyone else. Therefore they expect Hamilton to be able to be paid more than anyone else, even Alonso. They believe if McLaren is a top team should be able to pay whatever Hamilton demands.

Unfortunately they don't figure that the only reason Alonso is paid so much more is because Santander pays his wages by sponsoring Ferrari for a huge amount of money to cover the cost, and it's down to his marketability not his speed. Hamilton could demand whatever he wants, if he can get a sponsor to pay it for him.


Which leads to a thought I posted earlier in the week: this could all be about McLaren putting pressure on a sponsor (or sponsors) to cough up more money if they want to keep Lewis. Beyond a certain point, financially, higher compensation for Lewis only makes sense if it generates at least matching revenue.


#41 Kingshark

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 19:23

Well, for the past 12 years Mclaren have won a staggering 1 drivers championship and no constructors. That's not exactly mind-blowing either, is it?

#42 maverick69

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 19:30

So what is the criteria for a "top team"?

#43 scheivlak

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 19:34

So what is the criteria for a "top team"?

Having enough money for Rosberg and Schumi, and maybe Hamilton next year - or something like that  ;)

#44 Kingshark

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 19:47

Alonso earned 30,000,000 driving for Mclaren in 2007. I don't think Mclaren lack money to pay Hamilton's demanded salary, but rather that Whitmarsh doesn't feel that he's worth it.

#45 ayali

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 19:51

Well, for the past 12 years Mclaren have won a staggering 1 drivers championship and no constructors. That's not exactly mind-blowing either, is it?

Maybe that's what you get with a chairman who states the team is there to win races rather than championships.
But yes a decline seems in the cards in the near future
surely that is not the reason they won't offer Lewis what he thinks he's worth

Edited by ayali, 21 September 2012 - 19:53.


#46 Brandz07

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 19:58

Alonso earned 30,000,000 driving for Mclaren in 2007. I don't think Mclaren lack money to pay Hamilton's demanded salary, but rather that Whitmarsh doesn't feel that he's worth it.


Pretty sure Santander pay most of Fernando's salary demands.

#47 garoidb

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 20:00

Well, for the past 12 years Mclaren have won a staggering 1 drivers championship and no constructors. That's not exactly mind-blowing either, is it?


This statistic is surprising considering how competitive for race wins they have been over that period. But, on that basis, when did they stop being a top team? Would a WDC and WCC double in 2012, which is perfectly possible, change their status?



#48 AMG FAN

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 20:05

I don't see why it is ridiculous or delusional. The OP isn't saying McLaren aren't a top team, he's saying financially they aren't as strong as they used to be. I think he's saying a fair amount of sense, as McLaren's situation seems to be similar to Arsenal. Arsenal are a top team, but they don't spend anywhere near the other top teams like Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea etc. as they don't want to spend beyond their means.

Mclaren are the 2nd most valuable race team after Ferrari in the whole world...how does his comment make sense?

#49 JRizzle86

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 20:21

Here's a question?

Which team is more impressive?

A team that wins the championship then goes into the midfield and obscurity

or

A team that consistently wins multiple races year in year out and competes with the top teams for the championships every season but doesn't take the crown

Edited by JRizzle86, 21 September 2012 - 20:21.


#50 ExEd

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 20:23

I don't see why it is ridiculous or delusional. The OP isn't saying McLaren aren't a top team, he's saying financially they aren't as strong as they used to be. I think he's saying a fair amount of sense, as McLaren's situation seems to be similar to Arsenal. Arsenal are a top team, but they don't spend anywhere near the other top teams like Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea etc. as they don't want to spend beyond their means.


No one financially is as strong as they used to be,F1 in general.
Actually McLaren still spending close to the most if not the most cash on each year's budget,they just don't play this way on drivers salary ,they never did,with the exception of Alonso and even so Santander might had to do with it.