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2012 Singapore Grand Prix


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#851 RealRacing

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:38

It feels dumbed down on the television, but it's nothing compared to DRS/silly looking wings on the cars themselves which matters a whole lot more. I maintain it's good for the crowd paying to see the drivers.


Agree with the wings and DRS stuff. I'd pay to see the drivers drive, I don't give a damn about the rest. But, at this point, I think I'm a minority and I see your point.


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#852 olliek88

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:39

Number of laps is decided by distance indeed, first one after 300km makes up the distance. If you would make a circuit from U-turns only you would get immense laptimes but only 300km.


Monaco is the exception to the rule. (78 laps is 260.52 km, 40kms short) Wouldn't hurt to adjust Singapore's distance but the thats what makes it a great challenge, 2 hours on a bumpy, walled street circuit is a proper test for the drivers, i like to that, plus the inevitable SC periods are perfect for making a brew!

#853 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:43

I love Singapore being so long, it adds to the challenge and character.

#854 ZooL

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:48

It wasn't the track, it was the tyres, everybody too scared to push.

#855 BiH

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:50

they better change layout for next season

starting with that stupid turn 10.


also turn 1 needs to go why make gigantic run off area close it up like monaco turn 1.

#856 DarkknightRises

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:52

Singapore housed the most ridiculous chicane ever.....abudhabi is closely behind~~

we need more flowing tracks....stop adding more street circuit pls BERNIE!!!

#857 dau

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:12

On the radio, it totally sounded as if Kovalainen took responsibility for Petrov running nose-less. He could've cut sharply infront you know.

I thought he sounded a bit agitated, but i would never have interpreted that as him taking responsibility.

#858 santori

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:29

A dull, glitzy for a dull, glitzy government. Sod Singapore.

Edited by santori, 23 September 2012 - 16:30.


#859 PoleMan

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:33

:lol: :lol: I have to laugh at the Alonso is lucky brigade! EVERYONE BENEFITTED by Lewis' gearbox problem...ESPECIALLY Vettel and Button, who picked up the most points because of it. Clearly Fernando also took advantage. As for Maldonado, he'd pitted and was in 10th place before his hydraulic trouble while Fernando was in 3rd, so I don't see the luck or benefit to Alonso in that.

The DESPERATION by folks like Choythe and Wayne really gives me a belly laugh! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Edited by PoleMan, 23 September 2012 - 16:34.


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#860 DaddyCool

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:38

This is a race having the highest fuel consumption rate. Cars were damn heavy at the start. Nearly 160kg fuel. Fuel tanks of cars are designed based on Singapore GP. That's only expected. Pirelli have nothing to do with it.


Well they could've brought the harder compounds. Anyways, I don't wanna go too offtopic here.

#861 Juggles

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:52

The highlight for me was Massa's overtake on Senna. Wonderful car control, the camera was onboard with Massa during the wiggle and I was sure the two of them were going to make a Brazilian trifle. Glad to see the spark hasn't been completely extinguished.

More undeserved pain for Hamilton, he was faultless in qualifying and looked to be controlling the race with ease. His championship isn't over yet, not when you look at the level he is performing at and the current speed of the McLaren.

Congratulations to Vettel, Hamilton obviously deserved the win but Vettel was the only one in his league yesterday and was keeping the pressure on today. I am glad he was the one there to pick up the pieces because he has retired from the lead several times through no fault of his own. As a Hamilton fan, today was actually a bit of a snapshot into the infuriating life of a Vettel fan; I don't think there is anything more frustrating than seeing your driver retire from the lead.

Finally, well done Paul di Resta.

#862 ali.unal

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:56

Well they could've brought the harder compounds. Anyways, I don't wanna go too offtopic here.

Harder? For what, making it even slower? I didn't fully understand your point.

#863 fatd

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:14

Congratulations to Vettel, Hamilton obviously deserved the win but Vettel was the only one in his league yesterday and was keeping the pressure on today. I am glad he was the one there to pick up the pieces because he has retired from the lead several times through no fault of his own. As a Hamilton fan, today was actually a bit of a snapshot into the infuriating life of a Vettel fan; I don't think there is anything more frustrating than seeing your driver retire from the lead.


Yeah that's the hardest one to bear. I've been familiar enough with the frustration, having supported Kimi in 2005 and Vettel in 2010, even more because many times the one who inherited the lead was exactly the last person you'd want to be there :lol:
So I can really understand your feeling right now, be glad at least judging from the pace, you have a reason to be optimistic for the upcoming races.;)

Edited by fatd, 23 September 2012 - 17:14.


#864 bongofury

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:22

I don't think it was as dull as some of the comments suggest, although it was turning that way until Narain sensed a snoozefest and spiced it up.

I think its quite a difficult race to watch on TV as so many of the camera angles offer obscured views. The helicopter struggles due to the trees and ground cameras often show views that have other obstructions preventing a good shot.

#865 Youichi

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 19:34

So Webber gets pushed off track and gets a penalty, Massa (twice) chooses to go off track, to pass some one and doesn´t ?

http://twitpic.com/axm9em

#866 Sardukar

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 19:37

So Webber gets pushed off track and gets a penalty, Massa (twice) chooses to go off track, to pass some one and doesn´t ?

http://twitpic.com/axm9em


yeah i saw that and was wondering why the sky commentators didnt say anything!? It gave massa a pretty big advantage down that straight.

#867 Bloggsworth

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 19:43

Can I nominate Massa for both overtake and save of the season?

#868 XOR

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 20:06

Singapore has a lot of attractions but this GP is 61 laps longer than it should be.

#869 AMG FAN

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 20:19

so true.....

drivers wish others encounter bad luck too so you guys should calm down,don't think anyone means injury or anything
am sure people mean in terms of car reliability.

#870 olliek88

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 20:48

:lol: :lol: I have to laugh at the Alonso is lucky brigade! EVERYONE BENEFITTED by Lewis' gearbox problem...ESPECIALLY Vettel and Button, who picked up the most points because of it. Clearly Fernando also took advantage. As for Maldonado, he'd pitted and was in 10th place before his hydraulic trouble while Fernando was in 3rd, so I don't see the luck or benefit to Alonso in that.

The DESPERATION by folks like Choythe and Wayne really gives me a belly laugh! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Well Alonso has gained a fair few points from others bad luck this season, read a this >>> http://f1stats.blog....out-misfortune/

Thats not counting Monza where he gained points with Seb breaking down and today with Hamilton's gearbox giving up the ghost. Alonso's a great driver but he has had a lot of luck this year.

#871 Kingshark

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 22:26

What are you all talking about Alonso's luck. He got taken out on the first corner in Spa and had car problems in Qualifying at Monza costing him a much better position.

Not to mention that Ferrari blew his strategy in Canada.

Sadly, no one remembers that. It's became a stereo-type that Alonso is always lucky thus people will always consider him the fortunate one, no matter what happens.

Apparently, Alonso gained about 3 points this race and now everyone's bashing him. This forum is a disgrace all too often.

#872 PoleMan

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 22:48

Well Alonso has gained a fair few points from others bad luck this season, read a this >>> http://f1stats.blog....out-misfortune/

Thats not counting Monza where he gained points with Seb breaking down and today with Hamilton's gearbox giving up the ghost. Alonso's a great driver but he has had a lot of luck this year.

Can you finish this sentence for me? To finish first, first you must... :)

As others have said, technical breakdowns AREN'T LUCK! It is a FAILURE of the race team! Drivers are part of the team. The chassis and all its parts another. Then the engineers, pit crew and strategy folks. Using your logic, any time anyone has a failure it is Lucky for someone else to gobble up the points. If posters on here were consistent in their logic, that might give a bit more strength to that argument (Not much, really!), but folks seem to only mention luck when it comes to Alonso.

He DOES benefit by putting that F2012 in lofty places not expected by his team, so he can capitalize if others fall short. His Ferrari Team have built an INCREDIBLY RELIABLE car, if not the outright fastest. Those things, plus Alonso's UNBELIEVABLE CONSISTENCY, are what have him and Ferrari leading the WDC. Fernando and Ferrari didn't make excuses when their car's performance came up short in the pre-season and early part of the year. Despite all the laugher at their expense, they took RESPONSIBILITY for building a sub-par car! They also take responsibility [Some call it PRIDE!], now that all their hard work has things looking much better for them. Would be wonderful if other teams and their fans could take responsibility for their shortcomings and just fix them without making sad excuses that come across as so many sour grapes. Driver errors. Pit stop mistakes. Mechanical failures. That's ALL part of F1! Don't want to suffer from them, then do a better job and build a BLOODY RELIABLE CAR! :kiss:

Edited by PoleMan, 23 September 2012 - 22:55.


#873 ASFA2011

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 23:41

Can you finish this sentence for me? To finish first, first you must... :)

As others have said, technical breakdowns AREN'T LUCK! It is a FAILURE of the race team! Drivers are part of the team. The chassis and all its parts another. Then the engineers, pit crew and strategy folks. Using your logic, any time anyone has a failure it is Lucky for someone else to gobble up the points. If posters on here were consistent in their logic, that might give a bit more strength to that argument (Not much, really!), but folks seem to only mention luck when it comes to Alonso.

He DOES benefit by putting that F2012 in lofty places not expected by his team, so he can capitalize if others fall short. His Ferrari Team have built an INCREDIBLY RELIABLE car, if not the outright fastest. Those things, plus Alonso's UNBELIEVABLE CONSISTENCY, are what have him and Ferrari leading the WDC. Fernando and Ferrari didn't make excuses when their car's performance came up short in the pre-season and early part of the year. Despite all the laugher at their expense, they took RESPONSIBILITY for building a sub-par car! They also take responsibility [Some call it PRIDE!], now that all their hard work has things looking much better for them. Would be wonderful if other teams and their fans could take responsibility for their shortcomings and just fix them without making sad excuses that come across as so many sour grapes. Driver errors. Pit stop mistakes. Mechanical failures. That's ALL part of F1! Don't want to suffer from them, then do a better job and build a BLOODY RELIABLE CAR! :kiss:


Exactly :up: , but you know that haters are going to hate


#874 RealRacing

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 00:25

I don't see anything wrong in saying a driver has been lucky or unlucky, it's just the way it is. And it is not the merit of any driver or a defect of any driver (unless they are also involved in the design and engineering of their machines), that their teams have more or less reliable cars. As such, I think it's fair to give an opinion that this year (and other seasons as well), reliability has played a big role, and that some drivers have benefited from solid cars and others from less reliable ones. The two abandonments Vettel has had this season for example are unlucky, especially in an era of very reliable cars. Hamilton was unlucky today as well and at Spa. Alonso was unlucky at Spa but comparatively vs. his closest competitors in the WDC he has been lucky. Luck definitely plays a part in winning, sometimes more, sometimes less, but to try to deny that it does is simply not realistic.

#875 Nitropower

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 00:39

Some people need to understand reliability is as key a part of the game as performance is. Reliability depends on the build quality. So no "luck". Bad lack is when Grosjean sweeps you and destroys your race and you can do nothing, but your car breaking down is not bad luck, it's another racing factor. Deal with it.

#876 BillBald

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 00:46

Not to mention that Ferrari blew his strategy in Canada.
Sadly, no one remembers that. It's became a stereo-type that Alonso is always lucky thus people will always consider him the fortunate one, no matter what happens.


One bad strategy in a season? I'd call that lucky.

Apparently, Alonso gained about 3 points this race and now everyone's bashing him. This forum is a disgrace all too often.


He gained a lot more than 3 points WRT Lewis.



#877 as65p

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 00:51

I don't see anything wrong in saying a driver has been lucky or unlucky, it's just the way it is. And it is not the merit of any driver or a defect of any driver (unless they are also involved in the design and engineering of their machines), that their teams have more or less reliable cars. As such, I think it's fair to give an opinion that this year (and other seasons as well), reliability has played a big role, and that some drivers have benefited from solid cars and others from less reliable ones. The two abandonments Vettel has had this season for example are unlucky, especially in an era of very reliable cars. Hamilton was unlucky today as well and at Spa. Alonso was unlucky at Spa but comparatively vs. his closest competitors in the WDC he has been lucky. Luck definitely plays a part in winning, sometimes more, sometimes less, but to try to deny that it does is simply not realistic.


It comes down to what people define as luck. Usually around here it's done in a very selective way to express frustration about the "wrong" people doing a good job. Where is the luck in Alonso starting the season with a complete dog of a car, then development catching up somewhat only to stagnate again, way behind his WDC opponents cars? Is it not luck, from Hamiltons perspective, that car development came to him after he was looking quite ordinary, pace-wise, for the first 3 races? Or that McLaren, after some teething troubles, now gain him a second or more at every pit stop over the opposition? Or that his car is by now clearly capable of winning on every kind of track, IOW his car being the class of the field?

One can dress this "luck" stories up many different ways.

#878 as65p

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 00:58

One bad strategy in a season? I'd call that lucky.


If counted Hamilton style, it's at least 3 'bad' strategies, Barcelona and Silverstone were sub-optimal too. Thankfully very few, if any, Alonso fans do count like that, let alone harp on about it endlessly.

Edit: not to speak of Monza free practice and qualifying being a complete mess for Alonso. through no fault of his own.

Edited by as65p, 24 September 2012 - 01:13.


#879 FSA

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:03

Some people need to understand reliability is as key a part of the game as performance is. Reliability depends on the build quality. So no "luck". Bad lack is when Grosjean sweeps you and destroys your race and you can do nothing, but your car breaking down is not bad luck, it's another racing factor. Deal with it.

:up:
Massive respect to this. People seem to have forgotten that mechanical unreliability has ALWAYS been a part of F1. And it is not a bad reflection on a winner if his rivals failed to finish the race(s). Every team starts with the same basic template and all the teams have the same goal as constructors. There is no such thing as luck in F1. It's just used as a way if disrespecting and devaluing the achievements of a team/driver you don't like. And it's childish.

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#880 karne

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:12

So Webber gets pushed off track and gets a penalty, Massa (twice) chooses to go off track, to pass some one and doesn´t ?

http://twitpic.com/axm9em


Please excuse me.

I'm off to find some stewards.

:mad:

#881 metz

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:40

Please excuse me.

I'm off to find some stewards.

:mad:

:smoking: Advice: Wear red.

#882 RealRacing

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 14:08

:up:
Massive respect to this. People seem to have forgotten that mechanical unreliability has ALWAYS been a part of F1. And it is not a bad reflection on a winner if his rivals failed to finish the race(s). Every team starts with the same basic template and all the teams have the same goal as constructors. There is no such thing as luck in F1. It's just used as a way if disrespecting and devaluing the achievements of a team/driver you don't like. And it's childish.


That's going a bit too far. Maybe some people misuse the luck factor but it exists and has always existed in F1 and motor racing. A SC at the right moment, a car breaking when leading, conditions that suit a car, etc.

#883 RealRacing

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 14:13

:smoking: Advice: Wear red.


Or scream hysterically. But the combination works best.

#884 BillBald

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 00:02

If counted Hamilton style, it's at least 3 'bad' strategies, Barcelona and Silverstone were sub-optimal too. Thankfully very few, if any, Alonso fans do count like that, let alone harp on about it endlessly.

Edit: not to speak of Monza free practice and qualifying being a complete mess for Alonso. through no fault of his own.


I don't think we need to bring the more delusional Lewis fans into this.

Alonso had at least 2 pieces of luck in Singapore. Lewis' retirement of course, but also the safety cars. He had made his second pitstop shortly beforehand, and faced the prospect of running more than half the race on one set of tyres. That suddenly became much less important. And, in addition, he didn't even lose track position, which often happens when you pit shortly before a safety car - I haven't quite worked out why.

Incidentally, I don't even know why they brought out the 2nd safety car - most of the debris seemed to be in the escape road.

Edit: I've just remembered something else - the SC rescued Alonso from an impossible situation where he was stuck as the last car in a 4-car train, with Maldonado immediately in front of him. This train was more than 2 seconds off the pace.

Edited by BillBald, 25 September 2012 - 00:38.


#885 ed24f1

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 00:29

Well Alonso has gained a fair few points from others bad luck this season, read a this >>> http://f1stats.blog....out-misfortune/

Thats not counting Monza where he gained points with Seb breaking down and today with Hamilton's gearbox giving up the ghost. Alonso's a great driver but he has had a lot of luck this year.


Alonso's always been extremely lucky. In his career, Alonso's gained 8/30* wins from either the driver in the lead having mechanical problems or from team orders. These were San Marino and Germany in 2005, Japan in 2006, Singapore in 2008, Bahrain, Germany and Korea in 2010 and Europe in 2012. He's only lost one potential win due to a mechanical issue, which was Hungary 2006.

Of course, he had to get in those positions in the first place, but he's undoubtedly had a lot of luck to get him those wins. Without it, maybe no 2005 or 2006 title and wouldn't have had a chance in 2010. The arguments about championships are of course weaker, as for 2005 for example, the McLaren probably wouldn't have been so fast if it wasn't so unreliable.

* You could arguably even extend that up to 10 if you included Europe 2005, arguably Kimi's fault, and France 2005, where Kimi probably only didn't win due to his 10 place grid penalty.

Edited by ed24f1, 25 September 2012 - 00:30.


#886 as65p

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:26

I don't think we need to bring the more delusional Lewis fans into this.

Alonso had at least 2 pieces of luck in Singapore. Lewis' retirement of course, but also the safety cars. He had made his second pitstop shortly beforehand, and faced the prospect of running more than half the race on one set of tyres. That suddenly became much less important. And, in addition, he didn't even lose track position, which often happens when you pit shortly before a safety car - I haven't quite worked out why.

Incidentally, I don't even know why they brought out the 2nd safety car - most of the debris seemed to be in the escape road.

Edit: I've just remembered something else - the SC rescued Alonso from an impossible situation where he was stuck as the last car in a 4-car train, with Maldonado immediately in front of him. This train was more than 2 seconds off the pace.


Must have been hard to watch the race thinking every so often 'yes, now Alonso is toast!' only to be disappointed each time. :p

In reality, the only luck of Alonso in Singapore was LH's retirement, the same piece of luck that helped every other driver in the field. After that he was always destined for 4th/3rd, which became definitive 3rd when Maldonado pitted one more time. A lot of the drivers around Alonso switched from 3 to 2 stops because of the SC, that was by no means exclusive Alonso-luck, as you try to make out.

From another angle, it was really bad luck for Alonso that Button wasn't half a metre closer to Vettel before the first restart...  ;)

#887 MatsNorway

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:28

Can I nominate Massa for both overtake and save of the season?


Yes. What overtake compares to that one?

#888 as65p

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:44

Yes. What overtake compares to that one?


Well, as we're discussing luck so intensly these days, I reckon that overtake from Massa is a glaring example of it. As I see it, 9 out of 10 times the same move would end in the wall and/or the other car.

#889 BillBald

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:08

Must have been hard to watch the race thinking every so often 'yes, now Alonso is toast!' only to be disappointed each time. :p

In reality, the only luck of Alonso in Singapore was LH's retirement, the same piece of luck that helped every other driver in the field. After that he was always destined for 4th/3rd, which became definitive 3rd when Maldonado pitted one more time. A lot of the drivers around Alonso switched from 3 to 2 stops because of the SC, that was by no means exclusive Alonso-luck, as you try to make out.

From another angle, it was really bad luck for Alonso that Button wasn't half a metre closer to Vettel before the first restart... ;)


I would say that there was a distinct possibility that Alonso could have finished 5th, if Williams hadn't put options on Maldonado, and if the safety car hadn't rescued Alonso from the slow train.

It didn't look likely that Alonso would get past Maldonado with all the bits on his car still in place, and Pastor was much more interested in blocking Alonso than in trying to overtake the slow cars in front. DiResta was going faster than Alonso at that point, a later safety car would have allowed him to get in front.

Anyway, I think we can agree that it wouldn't have been a disaster for Alonso, even 5th place would leave him well in the lead of the WDC.

But the guy does seem to have a lot of luck.



#890 slmk

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:21

Must have been hard to watch the race thinking every so often 'yes, now Alonso is toast!' only to be disappointed each time. :p

In reality, the only luck of Alonso in Singapore was LH's retirement, the same piece of luck that helped every other driver in the field. After that he was always destined for 4th/3rd, which became definitive 3rd when Maldonado pitted one more time. A lot of the drivers around Alonso switched from 3 to 2 stops because of the SC, that was by no means exclusive Alonso-luck, as you try to make out.

From another angle, it was really bad luck for Alonso that Button wasn't half a metre closer to Vettel before the first restart... ;)


Alonso was destined for 4th at best. No way he beats Jenson, Lewis or Vettel on pace. And Alonso was sort of saved by the 2 lengthy SC periods.