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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#1 D.M.N.

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:19

Old topic closed due to technical reasons. Please remember that this thread is regarding a comparison of Jenson Button's and Lewis Hamilton's performances this year. Please use the following threads for other discussion related to McLaren:

- McLaren MP4-27 thread
- Jenson Button thread
- Lewis Hamilton thread

Thank you. :)

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#2 jrg19

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:26

Q L 12-2 J

R L 8 -5 J

#3 sofarapartguy

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:25

Q L 12-2 J

R L 8 -5 J


12+2 = 14
8+5 = 13


:confused: ??

Got it - Singapore in progress..

Edited by sofarapartguy, 23 September 2012 - 11:26.


#4 Lazy

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:09

8-6

#5 MP422

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:12

Congrats to Jenson on the loss today !! Great drive by Lewis like a true champion. Retired with class.. Slim chance but he can still do it.

I give this one to JB on the score card, but Hamilton was the better driver this weekend.

#6 SennaJordan

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:15

Faster car, no problems and Button simply can't take full advantage of it. This season, he's been useless.

#7 fieraku

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:16

Congrats to Jenson on the loss today !! Great drive by Lewis like a true champion. Retired with class.. Slim chance but he can still do it.

I give this one to JB on the score card
, but Hamilton was the better driver this weekend.

Why? He was nowhere near Lewis in the race. This thread might as well be closed and just post the final result at the end of the season.

#8 robefc

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:23

Why? He was nowhere near Lewis in the race. This thread might as well be closed and just post the final result at the end of the season.


My understanding is macca didn't think there was anything wrong with the gearbox yesterday.

So unless there's some info about tagging the wall yesterday Lewis gets the win for me.

Which puts JB on 3.5 and Lewis on erm 10.5 if I'm counting correctly on my personal scorecard.



#9 Dalton007

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:24

Jenson was reasonably quick today, but Vettel was the fastest on the softs. Lewis might have struggled to keep the red bull behind in the final stint.

#10 jrg19

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:24

8-6

#11 thesham01

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:25

8-6


Whats the point in this scorecard if you are just gonna go on the finishes? We'll just use the points then.

The point for non-button fans is to see who performed better in the race. Now I don't mind Hamilton not getting it, but Button definitely doesn't deserve it. Draw at best, Hamilton if anyone.

#12 P123

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:26

Hard luck for LH. Good drive by JB. Hopefully no more reliability issues for the remainder of the season.

#13 MinT

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:28

. This thread might as well be closed and just post the final result at the end of the season.



Good plan

Its the same blinkered super fan rubbish every week.

#14 Lazy

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:30

Why coudlnt Button take it to Seb?

This was a hollow victory


Come on, you know that the overtake would have been impossible on this track unless your 3 or 4 secs quicker.

More likely he would have killed his tyres following and come under threat from Alonso.

#15 speng

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:33

Jenson was reasonably quick today, but Vettel was the fastest on the softs. Lewis might have struggled to keep the red bull behind in the final stint.

I can use Hamilton's performance as an indicator and say more than likely he would have kept his lead.
you just trying to Button performance look better than it was. He was driving the same car as Hamilton and could not gain any time on Vettel, in fact was losing ground.

#16 speng

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:34

Jenson was reasonably quick today, but Vettel was the fastest on the softs. Lewis might have struggled to keep the red bull behind in the final stint.

I can use Hamilton's performance as an indicator and say more than likely he would have kept his lead.
you just trying to Button performance look better than it was. He was driving the same car as Hamilton and could not gain any time on Vettel, in fact was losing ground.

#17 Lights

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:34

Once again McLaren can't get both cars to the finish line.. appalling. Just awaiting Jenson's retirement in the next race, it's his turn again I guess.

For the rest, same story as we've seen in so many races. Lewis drives a brilliant pole lap, but Jenson's race pace is up there. A 9 and an 8 for them from me. Of course Lewis gets the higher score for the weekend, don't see the point in arguing otherwise.

#18 thesham01

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:35

Happiest man after the race was Button; team-mate can't win WDC. What a relief for him.

#19 fieraku

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:39

My understanding is macca didn't think there was anything wrong with the gearbox yesterday.

So unless there's some info about tagging the wall yesterday Lewis gets the win for me.

Which puts JB on 3.5 and Lewis on erm 10.5 if I'm counting correctly on my personal scorecard.


Don't worry in 3...2...1... someone will say here HAM's ''hard driving'' broke it. ;)

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#20 peroa

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:40

Once again McLaren can't get both cars to the finish line.. appalling. Just awaiting Jenson's retirement in the next race, it's his turn again I guess.

For the rest, same story as we've seen in so many races. Lewis drives a brilliant pole lap, but Jenson's race pace is up there. A 9 and an 8 for them from me. Of course Lewis gets the higher score for the weekend, don't see the point in arguing otherwise.

Was it? Whitmarsh just said on sky that LH was just cruising around.

#21 Dalton007

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:40

Happiest man after the race was Button; team-mate can't win WDC. What a relief for him.


More like a save from Button. :up:

#22 Dalton007

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:41

I can use Hamilton's performance as an indicator and say more than likely he would have kept his lead.
you just trying to Button performance look better than it was. He was driving the same car as Hamilton and could not gain any time on Vettel, in fact was losing ground.


Vettel was mega quick on the softs - MAC was better on the super softs.

#23 robefc

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:42

Come on, you know that the overtake would have been impossible on this track unless your 3 or 4 secs quicker.

More likely he would have killed his tyres following and come under threat from Alonso.


4 secs is the official amount apparently...although I find it weird that they can calculate this given it seems to leave no scope for driver skill etc.

Real shame about the SCs from JB's pov although I think that Vettel had it covered.

Think Lewis would have had vettel covered too.

Edited by robefc, 23 September 2012 - 14:42.


#24 Lights

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:42

Was it? Whitmarsh just said on sky that LH was just cruising around.

Sure, why create a buffer when you can have Vettel right behind you, right?

#25 Buttoneer

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:43

Why coudlnt Button take it to Seb?

This was a hollow victory

Good question. Ultimately, I agree that Hamilton was the better driver this weekend based on what we saw but we don't know really where the race might have ended up. Button just didn't have the raw pace that Lewis had, but he did go a lot longer in the first stint, and may well have extended that in the next, but the safety car essentially reset the position so the hard work was wasted. On tyres that were much fresher than either Lewis or Seb, he might have been able to make it a 1-2 for the team, but we just don't know because sadly Hamilton's car wasn't up to the task.

#26 robefc

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:43

Vettel was mega quick on the softs - MAC was better on the super softs.


There was no indication of this prior to Lewis's retirement.

Frankly it was a bit depressing to hear how eager Lewis was to find out when he could back off after his first stop (basically after he had a good gap to button who hadn't pitted yet), these guys are driving a good 2 or 3 seconds below their ultimate pace.

#27 fieraku

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:44

Sure, why create a buffer when you can have Vettel right behind you, right?

Coz the gearbox started acting up beforehand? :confused:

#28 karlth

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:44

More like a save from Button. :up:


No Button lost today. If ever there was a confirmation to McLaren's brass that even with the best car Button cannot finish the job then this race was it.




#29 Dane92

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:44

Hard luck for Lewis today, but then again Jenson had bad luck last race too. I want to know what happened to Jenson in the last stint, up until then his pace was good so maybe a bad set of boots. In any case Mclaren are unfortunately the losers today, once again a mechanical failure has deprived them of a really good result.

#30 robefc

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:45

Sure, why create a buffer when you can have Vettel right behind you, right?


You genuinely don't think lewis was content to keep vettel just out of DRS reach?

In my view they were much more concerned about managing the tyres than the gap to vettel, he backed off immediately when told to, 2 laps after pitting.

EDIT - don't have an issue with your original post btw, which the poster you replied to was replying too so I may have interrupted a conversation.

Edited by robefc, 23 September 2012 - 14:46.


#31 peroa

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:45

There was no indication of this prior to Lewis's retirement.

Frankly it was a bit depressing to hear how eager Lewis was to find out when he could back off after his first stop (basically after he had a good gap to button who hadn't pitted yet), these guys are driving a good 2 or 3 seconds below their ultimate pace.

That's an understatement.

#32 Lazy

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:46

4 secs is the official amount apparently...although I find it weird that they can calculate this given it seems to leave no scope for driver skill etc.

Real shame about the SCs from JB's pov although I think that Vettel had it covered.

Think Lewis would have had vettel covered too.


Yeah, I think the only chance to pass for any of them would have been pitstops.

Gutting for Lewis, unlucky mate.

#33 thesham01

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:47

No Button lost today. If ever there was a confirmation to McLaren's brass that even with the best car Button cannot finish the job then this race was it.


:up:

#34 Fatgadget

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:50

Lewis fumbled with the buttons on the wheel....Where is Slategray?

#35 ZooL

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:50

8-6

This post shows how statistics and numbers never tell the true story of what lies beneath.

Edited by ZooL, 23 September 2012 - 14:50.


#36 ZooL

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:51

No Button lost today. If ever there was a confirmation to McLaren's brass that even with the best car Button cannot finish the job then this race was it.

:up:

#37 fieraku

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:51

No Button lost today. If ever there was a confirmation to McLaren's brass that even with the best car Button cannot finish the job then this race was it.

Well it seems so,Lewis was keeping Vettel in check with a missing 3rd gear and 'some sequential thingie broken in the gearbox'.

Source Martin Whitmarsh

#38 Dalton007

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:52

No Button lost today. If ever there was a confirmation to McLaren's brass that even with the best car Button cannot finish the job then this race was it.


Clearly, after the win in SPA, car prob in Monza and the second place in Singapore. :rotfl:

Lewis did have the raw pace this weekend, though. Look forward to Japan. :up:

#39 thesham01

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:52

This post shows how statistics and numbers never tell the true story of what lies beneath.


This thread shows that.


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#40 robefc

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:52

Yeah, I think the only chance to pass for any of them would have been pitstops.

Gutting for Lewis, unlucky mate.


Cheers mate.

Interesting to hear MW harp on about the guy that DNF'd and only mention the guy that finished 2nd right at the end of the interview with Sky, biased git!

#41 Lazy

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:54

Cheers mate.

Interesting to hear MW harp on about the guy that DNF'd and only mention the guy that finished 2nd right at the end of the interview with Sky, biased git!


:mad:

#42 Dane92

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:54

No Button lost today. If ever there was a confirmation to McLaren's brass that even with the best car Button cannot finish the job then this race was it.


You can't win them all my friend, even the best drivers lose sometimes. Whether they have the best car or not.

#43 Lights

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:56

Coz the gearbox started acting up beforehand? :confused:

When?

#44 inca_roads

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:56

Lewis forced out of 4 of the last 7 races now. And his last 4 race victories have resulted in a DNF out of his control at the very next race. It goes on and on and on...

#45 Buttoneer

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 14:56

Posts deleted, please stop trolling.

If you are currently unable to post rationally or politely, please avoid posting.

#46 Lights

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:01

You genuinely don't think lewis was content to keep vettel just out of DRS reach?

In my view they were much more concerned about managing the tyres than the gap to vettel, he backed off immediately when told to, 2 laps after pitting.

EDIT - don't have an issue with your original post btw, which the poster you replied to was replying too so I may have interrupted a conversation.

When Vettel had his first pit stop Hamilton kept on for 2 laps with fairly slow pace, if he was really cruising around that would be pretty stupid to do while Vettel was lapping on new tyres.

As to tyre management, it's a general thing all drivers do, so again I don't understand the reply I received.

#47 Fonzey

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:01

Hamilton was short shifting for several laps, yet still could keep ~1.5sec infront of Vettel.

We NEVER know the true pace of a leader but I think under normal circumstances we'd only accept to believe that the leader is maintaining the gap when there's 4-6seconds to play with, such as early Monza.

1.5sec is too fine on a track with over 20 opportunities to drop half a second per lap, so either Lewis was struggling to meet pit window or the gearbox was showing signs of failure several laps before it actually popped.

#48 fieraku

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:03

When?

Lewis didn't say which lap but he did say he first lost that gear thingie first then 3rd gear.

#49 robefc

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:04

When Vettel had his first pit stop Hamilton kept on for 2 laps with fairly slow pace, if he was really cruising around that would be pretty stupid to do while Vettel was lapping on new tyres.

As to tyre management, it's a general thing all drivers do, so again I don't understand the reply I received.


I'm not sure lewis's pace on worn ssofts at the end of the first stint is that relevant to be honest. Particularly as it was quicker than vettel's so he actually did pull a gap before vettel pitted.

The point about tyre management is that I think Lewis was far more worried about managing the tyres than trying to pull a gap on vettel, your post implied that he would want to create a buffer if he could.

#50 robefc

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:06

Hamilton was short shifting for several laps, yet still could keep ~1.5sec infront of Vettel.

We NEVER know the true pace of a leader but I think under normal circumstances we'd only accept to believe that the leader is maintaining the gap when there's 4-6seconds to play with, such as early Monza.

1.5sec is too fine on a track with over 20 opportunities to drop half a second per lap
, so either Lewis was struggling to meet pit window or the gearbox was showing signs of failure several laps before it actually popped.


You also need to take into account it's a track where you can't overtake.

I don't think Lewis was much if any quicker than vettel by the way, I'm just talking about the motivation to pull a buffer, he could clearly have gone quicker (so could vettel)