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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#451 zack1994

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 20:32

You could be right, we'll never know, but I'm inclined to believe no refuelling flattered Jenson. Because a race back then was basically ~60 quali laps, and we know the scorecard between JB and Lewis in quali this year.

Once again but for another poster explain why trulli couldnt maintain race pace then if it was just quali laps.
Being quick in quali does not mean you have the same pace in the race, trulli is a great example of that.

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#452 OoxLox

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 20:40

Yep, I noticed during the last GP that both Hamiltons and Vettels laptimes were bouncing up and down by around 5 tenths of a second each lap while Buttons were varying by just a tenth.


The data doesn't support that particular memory I'm afraid. Both McLaren drivers had runs of three laps or so within a few tenths of the same time, which on a long street circuit is excellent driving from both of them. LH didn't "bounce around" by half a second a lap unless you count the last few laps and I don't know for how long he'd had gearbox issues before it blew on him. Monza showed the same pattern - both drivers putting in consistent laps.

But hey, never mind. There's still the "Lewis the gearbox wrecker" thing to go at. I mean, the boxes are electronically controlled by a paddle and it'd be obvious to the team if one driver were shifting too late or early and putting more strain on the things than needed, but let's run with that one. :rolleyes:

#453 Rinehart

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 20:45

A lot of people forget one of the reasons why Button hasn't been slaughtered from 2010 on;

the refuelling.

When Heikki was Lewis' teammate, they were still driving qualifying laps, barely looking after their tires at all. Tires were put under much less pressure (less weight), and the Bridgestones had less wear too. Sure.. you could save your tire a bit, but it never gave you such an advantage as now. If Button would have been Hamilton's teammate back then, the 0,4 qualifying difference would be there in every single race lap. The only reason Button can keep Hamilton in his sight more or less now (only when the car is to his liking...), is the current way of Formula 1. Basically, Hamilton is racing Button on his turf now. Funnily enough, he is still beating him.


Button won the last world title in the refuelling era.

#454 thesham01

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 21:06

Button won the last world title in the refuelling era.


In an anomaly of a year.

#455 Clatter

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 21:17

In an anomaly of a year.


I knew there would be a good excuse.

#456 Markn93

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 21:20

I knew there would be a good excuse.


Come on now, you can't seriously think Rinehart's original argument is bulletproof?

#457 thesham01

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 21:23

I knew there would be a good excuse.


Its not an excuse, its a reason.

#458 Coops3

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 21:25

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103002
[
:) I think you jinxed that one.


Ffs. Reliability is dreadful this year!

#459 as65p

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 21:56

In an anomaly of a year.


As much an anomaly as the year before?

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#460 Tonka

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 22:14

Regardless of the driver, they should look at the car. It is not conducive for development to have a driver that can 'drive around the issues'.



For how many years did the McLaren take the kerbs on 3 wheels? It used to be all over the place. What did McLaren do about the problem? Lewis mentioned the problem during an interview earlier this year. He thought it was a joke. He would have learned how to drive around the problem, 'cos McLaren were not going to fix it.







#461 P123

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 22:23

Come on now, you can't seriously think Rinehart's original argument is bulletproof?


It was correct in that JB won the last WDC of the refuelling era. It's a fair counter to the position that no refuelling has kept LH and JB close together (and the assumption that tyre management wasn't as essential then can be countered by the struggles Heikki had with tyres).

#462 ForzaGTR

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 22:28

It's quite frankly laughable that people think Lewis' driving was responsible for his gear box failure. He's one of the most gifted drivers the sport has ever seen, he knows how to look after a gear box...us fans however would wreck one in 10 seconds.

#463 ForeverF1

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 22:29

For how many years did the McLaren take the kerbs on 3 wheels? It used to be all over the place. What did McLaren do about the problem? Lewis mentioned the problem during an interview earlier this year. He thought it was a joke. He would have learned how to drive around the problem, 'cos McLaren were not going to fix it.

Not sure what you are meaning here. A car that can take kerbs whilst keeping 3 wheels on the circuit is a good thing.

A link to this interview would be helpful.

#464 slmk

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 22:32

As much an anomaly as the year before?


No. Had DDD been outlawed, Brawn GP would not have been as strong and thus Jenson could not have racked up 6 wins in the first half of the season. And to be honest, Jenson's driving in the second half was very inconsistent and erratic.

He still won, props to him, but IMO, his 2010 and 2011 seasons were as good, if not better. Just like Hamilton, his WDC year was not his finest year.

#465 slmk

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 22:34

It's quite frankly laughable that people think Lewis' driving was responsible for his gear box failure. He's one of the most gifted drivers the sport has ever seen, he knows how to look after a gear box...us fans however would wreck one in 10 seconds.


McLaren has said Lewis' driving had nothing to do with it. Unless they were lying...

#466 P123

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 22:34

Not sure what you are meaning here. A car that can take kerbs whilst keeping 3 wheels on the circuit is a good thing.


I'm guessing the reference is to McLaren's rock hard suspension setup of recent seasons?

#467 Sinceref189

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 22:40

For how many years did the McLaren take the kerbs on 3 wheels? It used to be all over the place. What did McLaren do about the problem? Lewis mentioned the problem during an interview earlier this year. He thought it was a joke. He would have learned how to drive around the problem, 'cos McLaren were not going to fix it.

Huh ! Do u mean how Mclaren set the cars up stiffly sprung aka suspension.

#468 ForeverF1

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 22:40

I'm guessing the reference is to McLaren's rock hard suspension setup of recent seasons?

Initially, I thought that too, but the reference to "it used to be all over the place" threw me.

#469 as65p

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 22:53

No. Had DDD been outlawed, Brawn GP would not have been as strong and thus Jenson could not have racked up 6 wins in the first half of the season. And to be honest, Jenson's driving in the second half was very inconsistent and erratic.

He still won, props to him, but IMO, his 2010 and 2011 seasons were as good, if not better. Just like Hamilton, his WDC year was not his finest year.


Well yeah, "just like" i.e not an anomaly. Drivers winning with a car advantage is not any more of an anomaly than a driver winning when the (before and after that year) usually strongest opponents underperform or sit in crap cars. It also doesn't matter from a drivers perspective if a car advantage comes in the form of a trick device or just by having the fastest convetional car. If anything, the stats say Hamilton made harder work of his title than Button of his.

#470 thesham01

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 23:47

As much an anomaly as the year before?


Well considering Hamilton has challenged for the title in 07, 08, 10 and 12, the answer would be; no, 2008 was not an anomaly. How often has Button? Once; 2009. In 2010 and 2012 he had the car to challenge, but never did.

Edited by thesham01, 01 October 2012 - 23:48.


#471 Boxerevo

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:12

Lewis broked Jenson gearbox too ? :smoking:

Edited by Boxerevo, 02 October 2012 - 03:13.


#472 Requiem84

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:06

I think the fuel issue is much more of a problem to Jenson than it is to Lewis.

Jenson needs a balanced car more than Lewis seems to, and its obviously much more difficult to get a good balance with different fuel loads. If Jenson has a problem in quali, it's probably because he can't set the car up with a reasonable balance on quali fuel without then having a problem on high fuel.

If there was still refuelling, and quali was on race fuel load as before, I think Jenson would be matching Lewis in quali as well as in the race.


True, Jenson likes a balanced car, but in reality it does not really matter for large stages of the race (unless you get the balance so wrong that you destroy your tires (Jenson in Canada). They are hardly pushing. Remember MS saying that F1 has become to boring from a drivers perspective. At Mercedes they were driving to a delta timing (much slower than the car can handle) to protect the tires. Basically, they are not pushing for large parts of the race. They are driving around at 85-90%. It's harder to make a difference this way.

Pre 2010, they were driving Qualifying laps all race long. That's a huge difference in the approach of the race.

#473 Requiem84

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:10

Absolute rubbish, please explain how button was quicker than rubens in race pace then. Also explain why heikki was slower in the race than lewis.
Being 2 tenths quicker in quali does not mean you are going to be quicker in the race by the same margin
Utter rubbish
I'll wait for your response, you are going to struggle BTW


Rubens actually got consistently faster than Button in the later stages of 2009. Once he got on top of his braking issues, he was a good match for Button, as well in qualifying as in the race. Button did a very solid job in the first half of the season, when he had a car advantage. As soon as the car became equal to the other cars, like RB en Macca, he couldn't do much more.

Heikki.... well, he was a good match for Lewis in qualifying every now and then, but yes, he didn't have the racepace. Not all good qualifiers have racepace. That's definitely true. But Vettel, Hamilton and also Alonso have a pretty good qualifying pace ánd a racepace that matches it. Button has a decent racepace compared to his Q pace. So perhaps the deficit wouldn't be 0,4, but would be 0,2 on average. Remember, 60 Q laps every race, against a guy with a solid q and racepace. Button who is intrinsically slower than Hamilton, would have been destroyed.

#474 sofarapartguy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:39

True, Jenson likes a balanced car, but in reality it does not really matter for large stages of the race (unless you get the balance so wrong that you destroy your tires (Jenson in Canada). They are hardly pushing. Remember MS saying that F1 has become to boring from a drivers perspective. At Mercedes they were driving to a delta timing (much slower than the car can handle) to protect the tires. Basically, they are not pushing for large parts of the race. They are driving around at 85-90%. It's harder to make a difference this way.

Pre 2010, they were driving Qualifying laps all race long. That's a huge difference in the approach of the race.


Stop_reading_MS.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 02 October 2012 - 06:40.


#475 bauss

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:45

All gearbox problems by definition are "technical faults". All gearboxes are designed down to a minimum weight and have a limit life.

If previous identifiable structural or manufacturing problems had been found before like this one then it would not have been repeated.

In the end Jenson managed to get through to the end of the race without with the same problem appears to indicate that driving styles do matter. If they attempt to duplicate the opening scene of the "Dukes of Hazard" or hit the wall its isn't exactly going to help the matter.



not true, especially not in this case... JB's gearbox was new, he didnt finish in Monza so they changed it for Singapore while LH's gearbox had done the Monza weekend.

This is just garbage scraping to try to find some JB advantage...sht we've been dealing with for the past 3 years... no more :wave:

#476 Lazy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:49

Remember MS saying that F1 has become to boring from a drivers perspective. At Mercedes they were driving to a delta timing (much slower than the car can handle) to protect the tires.


If he's going much slower than the car can handle, how come he's finding it so difficult staying on track or out of the back of other cars?

Maybe he's so bored he nods off :)

#477 Obi Offiah

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:06

In 2010 Lewis and Mark had contact in during the Singapore Grand Prix as was mentioned earlier, McLaren should have had a free gearbox change for Suzuka, but Lewis received a 5 place grid penalty for having to change his gearbox. So either McLaren thought there wasn't a problem with the one used in Singapore, only to discover very late that it needed to be changed or they changed it any as a precaution, yet later discovered the new box was faulty. Then during the race with a new gearbox that had only done half a race distance, it began to fail. So in my opinion that is two gearbox issues that can't be attributed to Hamilton being too aggressive.

#478 teejay

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:33

True, and he came back really well at the end of the first stint in Singapore. I think he was cleverly staying out of dirty air, protecting his tyres and his pace after 13/14 laps amazed me. If that was the case it was very good race/stint management :up:


Except he could not catch Vettel when needed to, nor could he at the end of the race

#479 Force Ten

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:57

Except he could not catch Vettel when needed to, nor could he at the end of the race

You mean that he was slower on older tyres than seriously undercutting Vettel? Yeah, you gotta imagine my utter astonishment.

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#480 zack1994

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:01

Rubens actually got consistently faster than Button in the later stages of 2009. Once he got on top of his braking issues, he was a good match for Button, as well in qualifying as in the race. Button did a very solid job in the first half of the season, when he had a car advantage. As soon as the car became equal to the other cars, like RB en Macca, he couldn't do much more.

Heikki.... well, he was a good match for Lewis in qualifying every now and then, but yes, he didn't have the racepace. Not all good qualifiers have racepace. That's definitely true. But Vettel, Hamilton and also Alonso have a pretty good qualifying pace ánd a racepace that matches it. Button has a decent racepace compared to his Q pace. So perhaps the deficit wouldn't be 0,4, but would be 0,2 on average. Remember, 60 Q laps every race, against a guy with a solid q and racepace. Button who is intrinsically slower than Hamilton, would have been destroyed.

Race pace no he didnt.
Buttons strength is his race pace he can put extremely consistent times in and whats this 4 tenths, on a day where he is absolutely happy with the balance the gap is usually 1 or 2 tenths.


#481 zack1994

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:06

I think the fuel issue is much more of a problem to Jenson than it is to Lewis.

Jenson needs a balanced car more than Lewis seems to, and its obviously much more difficult to get a good balance with different fuel loads. If Jenson has a problem in quali, it's probably because he can't set the car up with a reasonable balance on quali fuel without then having a problem on high fuel.

If there was still refuelling, and quali was on race fuel load as before, I think Jenson would be matching Lewis in quali as well as in the race.

haha thats such a good point i remember there being moments in 2009, in q1 and q2 jenson would be struggling but when fuel was put in the car balance would improve.
He probably would be closer.

#482 BernieEc

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:29

Race pace no he didnt.
Buttons strength is his race pace he can put extremely consistent times in and whats this 4 tenths, on a day where he is absolutely happy with the balance the gap is usually 1 or 2 tenths.


But that happens like maybe 3-4x out of 20 odd races.......on the average he never seems to be able to find the balance

#483 robefc

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:30

Race pace no he didnt.
Buttons strength is his race pace he can put extremely consistent times in and whats this 4 tenths, on a day where he is absolutely happy with the balance the gap is usually 1 or 2 tenths.


So one or two races a year it's 1 or 2 tenths then! :p

EDIT -grrr, beating by an 80 yr old!

Edited by robefc, 02 October 2012 - 10:31.


#484 bauss

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:15

haha thats such a good point i remember there being moments in 2009, in q1 and q2 jenson would be struggling but when fuel was put in the car balance would improve.
He probably would be closer.



that's just a general JB syndrome of putting his best lap together at the last minute.

We've seen the same thing 2010 to 2012, difference is here it only reduces the deficit to LH, not outqualify... e.g. the 1 sec advantage reduced to 6 tenth in the last race.

If races were sprint where you could lean on the tire abit more similar to qualy, I have little doubt LH's qualy advantage would often show up on race day.

Already in close observation of live timing in the past years, you could see that the few times LH was pushing in the race...his strongest sectors in qualy were his strongest sectors in the race (relative to JB).

Nevertheless, JB is a pretty damn strong driver and a hunch is telling me Perez will probably be exposed a few times next year.

#485 zack1994

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:17

But that happens like maybe 3-4x out of 20 odd races.......on the average he never seems to be able to find the balance

well this year that has been true

#486 zack1994

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:32

that's just a general JB syndrome of putting his best lap together at the last minute.

We've seen the same thing 2010 to 2012, difference is here it only reduces the deficit to LH, not outqualify... e.g. the 1 sec advantage reduced to 6 tenth in the last race.

If races were sprint where you could lean on the tire abit more similar to qualy, I have little doubt LH's qualy advantage would often show up on race day.

Already in close observation of live timing in the past years, you could see that the few times LH was pushing in the race...his strongest sectors in qualy were his strongest sectors in the race (relative to JB).

Nevertheless, JB is a pretty damn strong driver and a hunch is telling me Perez will probably be exposed a few times next year.

No it was the fuel being put in the car creating a better rear balance. Here is an example this is a quote from button st the 2009 spain press conference:
Qualifying was a bit of a strange one because in q2 i couldnt get anywhere near ruben's times. My laps werent bad. I had a bit of rear movment which is never my favourite, but when we put fuel on board, the car felt as it had done this morning, so i was much happier with the balance

And your point about the sectors in races, thats not really strong evidence is it, if it even exists.

#487 ForzaGTR

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:57

The Hamilton fans are unbelievable!

Early 2010: JB will be destroyed
End 2010: "JB was destroyed" which is not quite the case
Early 2011: JB was lucky last year blah blah, LH lost his RE Blah Blah ect ad nausium.
End 2011: LH has had his worst season ever, that's the only reason blah blah, Martin Whitmarsh Blah Blah
Early 2012: LH will show him this year.
Now: LH would have been much further ahead if it wasn't for all of F1 ganging up on him.

The future...

End 2012

Option one: LH finishes substantially ahead of JB

That showed Em!! Ignoring the same possibility of the "worst season ever" effect.

Option 2: It's pretty close all said and done.

If it wasn't for all the bad luck blah blah

Option 3 JB overhauls LH: All that bad luck Blah Blah, Team didn't support him 'cause he's leaving blah blah.

Begining 2013: It is a building year for LH, don't expect too much.

End 2013: Imagine how well LH would have done in that McLaren if he hadn't been driven out of the team by the Evil MW and JB. Nico was always going to do better as he is settled in.


Oh dear. You sure let those pesky fanboys bother you!

#488 BillBald

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:57

True, Jenson likes a balanced car, but in reality it does not really matter for large stages of the race (unless you get the balance so wrong that you destroy your tires (Jenson in Canada). They are hardly pushing. Remember MS saying that F1 has become to boring from a drivers perspective. At Mercedes they were driving to a delta timing (much slower than the car can handle) to protect the tires. Basically, they are not pushing for large parts of the race. They are driving around at 85-90%. It's harder to make a difference this way.

Pre 2010, they were driving Qualifying laps all race long. That's a huge difference in the approach of the race.


The reason why they are hardly pushing is to protect the tyres. If the car is balanced, tyre degradation will be less, so the delta can be faster, they can push harder.

The balance is crucial during the race, that's why Jenson can't set the car up with a good balance in quali, because he needs a good balance to protect the tyres during the race.

Jenson never had a problem driving qualifying laps all race long. In late 2009, his only problem was that he couldn't qualify well. Even though he often had a severe tyre warming issue, which saw him weaving on the straights during the race, he was still much faster than Rubens in the race, all the time, except when he was trapped behind KERS-equipped cars.



#489 fieraku

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:07

Yep. It's a TEAM sport.

No it's not :wave: As long as there's a WDC and 2 drivers per team,and 2 cars of course.



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#490 stevesingo

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:12

Oh dear. You sure let those pesky fanboys bother you!


I see it as entertainment in the same way I get entertained by my kids 4 and 5 trying to justify the unjustifiable. Their imagination is boundless.

Sure looking forward to the Lewis vs Nico thread for similar levels of entertainment when it doesn't go to plan for the TDG!



#491 ForeverF1

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:17

No it's not :wave: As long as there's a WDC and 2 drivers per team,and 2 cars of course.

Yes it is, the entries are split into two teams, each team trying to get their driver to the front. There is as much rivalry between the teams as there is between the drivers on track.

#492 thesham01

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:22

But that happens like maybe 3-4x out of 20 odd races.......on the average he never seems to be able to find the balance



Thats the thing that annoys me most about certain Button fans; they cherry pick a couple of weekends/events/circumstances that rarely happen and say 'look at what Button can do!', completely ignoring the fact he rarely does it.

They are the outliers, not the norms. Seems everyone but some Button fans understand this.

#493 Lazy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:27

Thats the thing that annoys me most about certain Button fans; they cherry pick a couple of weekends/events/circumstances that rarely happen and say 'look at what Button can do!', completely ignoring the fact he rarely does it.

They are the outliers, not the norms. Seems everyone but some Button fans understand this.


Them, and the scoreboard.

#494 Clatter

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:32

Thats the thing that annoys me most about certain Button fans; they cherry pick a couple of weekends/events/circumstances that rarely happen and say 'look at what Button can do!', completely ignoring the fact he rarely does it.

They are the outliers, not the norms. Seems everyone but some Button fans understand this.


And you would never do that would you!


#495 maverick69

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:36

Them, and the scoreboard.


What's the point of this thread then? Why not look at the scoreboard and be done with it?

#496 thesham01

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:43

Them, and the scoreboard.


Everyone, including you, know that the points are a misleading way of judging how good someone is. As shown perfectly by the last race.

How many times has Button challenged for the WDC since at McLaren? Keep in mind they had a car good enough to win a WDC twice, and Hamilton challenged in both those years.

And you would never do that would you!


I look at the bigger picture, not desperately holding on to the scoreboard as the be all and end all. I openly challenge people to look deeper than the surface, something Button never want to do... strange that.

What's the point of this thread then? Why not look at the scoreboard and be done with it?


Exactly.

#497 Lazy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:45

What's the point of this thread then? Why not look at the scoreboard and be done with it?


The thread is for fun :)

But the scoreboard does provide pretty good back up to our argument.

#498 Burtros

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:45

Thats the thing that annoys me most about certain Button fans; they cherry pick a couple of weekends/events/circumstances that rarely happen and say 'look at what Button can do!', completely ignoring the fact he rarely does it.

They are the outliers, not the norms. Seems everyone but some Button fans understand this.


Wow, a response that consists of more than one line!!

Although, sadly, if Jenson wins are only 'outliers' (is that a word even) then you have to say broadly the same about Hamilton as he hasnt won that many more races during their time together.

You also seem to have completely forgotten the last half of 2011 when Button was the only man on the grid able to hold a candle to Vettel. So to say he rarely does it is a total farbrication and untrue. He may not be as capable of doing it as regularly as Lewis -but to say Button does it rarely while somehow convincing yourself Lewis turns it on every weekend is to kid yourself.



#499 Lazy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:49

I look at the bigger picture, not desperately holding on to the scoreboard as the be all and end all.


Better than desperately holding on to the endless bad luck story or fantasies of conspiracy.

The points may not be the whole story, but it's a bloody big hint.

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#500 fieraku

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:53

Yes it is, the entries are split into two teams, each team trying to get their driver to the front. There is as much rivalry between the teams as there is between the drivers on track.


I know it is "technically" but that wasn't my point. It's like saying Manny Pacquiao and Miguel Cotto are teammates because they're both employed by Top Rank.


This very thread should tell you whatta team sport F1 is.