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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#501 thesham01

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:54

Wow, a response that consists of more than one line!!

Although, sadly, if Jenson wins are only 'outliers' (is that a word even) then you have to say broadly the same about Hamilton as he hasnt won that many more races during their time together.

You also seem to have completely forgotten the last half of 2011 when Button was the only man on the grid able to hold a candle to Vettel. So to say he rarely does it is a total farbrication and untrue. He may not be as capable of doing it as regularly as Lewis -but to say Button does it rarely while somehow convincing yourself Lewis turns it on every weekend is to kid yourself.


I was mainly talking about the balance aspect, and when he finds the balance he is unbeatable. Also the within 1-2 tenths argument. Basically, him finding balance is not normal, and him being within 2 tenths is not normal.


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#502 Burtros

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:55

Everyone, including you, know that the points are a misleading way of judging how good someone is. As shown perfectly by the last race.

How many times has Button challenged for the WDC since at McLaren? Keep in mind they had a car good enough to win a WDC twice, and Hamilton challenged in both those years.



I look at the bigger picture, not desperately holding on to the scoreboard as the be all and end all. I openly challenge people to look deeper than the surface, something Button never want to do... strange that.



Exactly.



Annnnnnnnd again. 2010 Lewis 'challenged for the title' and Jenson didnt. I disagree.

Jenson had a disasterous Korean race that pretty much ended his bid, 2 races left. Lewis stayed in contention for one race longer, but he was dead and burried by Brazil with 1 race left. Anyone who thinks he had a realistc shot in Abu Dhabi is a moron, he was out of it.

So on that basis, we are back once again at the point where Hamilton fans are splitting hairs to make a sweeping general statement possible.

2012 - Button is less than a race win behind with 6 races to go, in my book Hamilton is NOT challenging for the title anyway. Vettel and Alonso will fight it out.

Yet again, you are splitting hairs, drawing a conclusion that suites you and presenting it as fact.

oh and PS. This would be a button fan, looking under the surface of your sweeping generalisations, as I and others do fairly often. Your closing comment is one hell of a stupid thing to say IMHO.



#503 BillBald

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:55

How many times has Button challenged for the WDC since at McLaren? Keep in mind they had a car good enough to win a WDC twice, and Hamilton challenged in both those years.


In truth, Lewis didn't make a very strong challenge in 2010, and it remains to be seen how strong a challenge he can make this year.

In 2 of the 3 years Jenson has driven for McLaren, he has had problems with updates made to the car. By pure coincidence, those were the years when McLaren had a (fairly small) chance of the WDC.

I'm sure the car was being updated just as often in 2011, but the updates made it better for Jenson rather than worse.

There's every reason to think that, with Lewis gone, all future updates will suit Jenson.



#504 senna da silva

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:56

How anybody can even argue that Button can hold a candle to Lewis is just pure fantasy in my opinion.

Button is nothing more than a Coulthard or a Webber, and he is going to struggle against Perez next year. Being witty and well spoken doesn't make you a great driver, and never, ever will.

#505 ForeverF1

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:57

Wow, a response that consists of more than one line!!

Although, sadly, if Jenson wins are only 'outliers' (is that a word even) then you have to say broadly the same about Hamilton as he hasnt won that many more races during their time together.

You also seem to have completely forgotten the last half of 2011 when Button was the only man on the grid able to hold a candle to Vettel. So to say he rarely does it is a total farbrication and untrue. He may not be as capable of doing it as regularly as Lewis -but to say Button does it rarely while somehow convincing yourself Lewis turns it on every weekend is to kid yourself.


Yes it is, see http://www.itl.nist....tion1/prc16.htm

#506 ForeverF1

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:00

How anybody can even argue that Button can hold a candle to Lewis is just pure fantasy in my opinion.

Button is nothing more than a Coulthard or a Webber, and he is going to struggle against Perez next year. Being witty and well spoken doesn't make you a great driver, and never, ever will.

Wrong, Button is one WDC more.
That, of course, remains to be seen.

#507 Burtros

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:03

How anybody can even argue that Button can hold a candle to Lewis is just pure fantasy in my opinion.

Button is nothing more than a Coulthard or a Webber, and he is going to struggle against Perez next year. Being witty and well spoken doesn't make you a great driver, and never, ever will.



Coulthard had the class car of the field in 98. Comprehensivly beaten by team mate.
Webber had the class car of 2011. Comprehensivly beaten by team mate.
Button had the class car of 2009. Comprehensivly beat team mate to become WDC.



#508 thesham01

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:03

Better than desperately holding on to the endless bad luck story or fantasies of conspiracy.

The points may not be the whole story, but it's a bloody big hint.


I don't entertain that many/any conspiracy stories. I believe McLaren have gone out their way to make sure Button gets equal treatment, that is it.

As for holding onto bad luck stories; luck is a part of everyday life. Hamilton has clearly been affected by far more things out of his control this year than Button (Barcelona fuel, Pit-stops in various, Germany puncture, Valencia t-boning, Spa crash, Singapore gearbox). These things are fact, and are indisputably not his fault.

If you can explain away all those events, and lay the blame at Hamiltons door for all of them, then I'll accept the points total. Again, I won't hold my breath.

#509 thesham01

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:06

Coulthard had the class car of the field in 98. Comprehensivly beaten by team mate.
Webber had the class car of 2011. Comprehensivly beaten by team mate.
Button had the class car of 2009. Comprehensivly beat team mate to become WDC.


Last time I checked Vettel and Hakkinen were double WDC's, and Barrichello has zero. To say that your comparison is misleading would be an understatement.



#510 slmk

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:06

Well yeah, "just like" i.e not an anomaly. Drivers winning with a car advantage is not any more of an anomaly than a driver winning when the (before and after that year) usually strongest opponents underperform or sit in crap cars. It also doesn't matter from a drivers perspective if a car advantage comes in the form of a trick device or just by having the fastest convetional car. If anything, the stats say Hamilton made harder work of his title than Button of his.


This is not an 'anomaly', though. Nice try.

The stats also say that McLaren was evenly matched with Ferrari (and BMW to some extent) throughout the season, while BGP was untouchable for the entire first half and was only challenged by an erratic and inconsistent RBR and McLaren.

#511 senna da silva

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:11

Coulthard had the class car of the field in 98. Comprehensivly beaten by team mate.
Webber had the class car of 2011. Comprehensivly beaten by team mate.
Button had the class car of 2009. Comprehensivly beat team mate to become WDC.


You're comparing Barrichello (who had brake issues but got the better of Button later in the year) to Mika and Seb? :rotfl:

#512 Dalton007

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:12

How anybody can even argue that Button can hold a candle to Lewis is just pure fantasy in my opinion.

Button is nothing more than a Coulthard or a Webber, and he is going to struggle against Perez next year. Being witty and well spoken doesn't make you a great driver, and never, ever will.


:kiss: Button has won a WDC. :wave:

#513 fieraku

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:14

In truth, Lewis didn't make a very strong challenge in 2010, and it remains to be seen how strong a challenge he can make this year.

In 2 of the 3 years Jenson has driven for McLaren, he has had problems with updates made to the car. By pure coincidence, those were the years when McLaren had a (fairly small) chance of the WDC.

I'm sure the car was being updated just as often in 2011, but the updates made it better for Jenson rather than worse.

There's every reason to think that, with Lewis gone, all future updates will suit Jenson
.


JB designed this car right? Or had more input? Something :D

"I'm very happy with the direction we've taken with the car and with the package we have.

"We don't need more bits. We've got it all on the car already. I'm a lot happier with everything compared with last year. We're not running round scratching our heads wondering what we'd done wrong.

There's nothing I'm afraid of with the balance of the car. It listens to changes, which is really important with a motor car."


#514 BillBald

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:22

JB designed this car right? Or had more input? Something :D

"I'm very happy with the direction we've taken with the car and with the package we have.

"We don't need more bits. We've got it all on the car already. I'm a lot happier with everything compared with last year. We're not running round scratching our heads wondering what we'd done wrong.

There's nothing I'm afraid of with the balance of the car. It listens to changes, which is really important with a motor car."


I'm guessing that Jenson made those comments before the Barcelona updates.

Next year, if McLaren produces updates which make Jenson slower, they won't go on the car.



#515 bauss

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:22

Annnnnnnnd again. 2010 Lewis 'challenged for the title' and Jenson didnt. I disagree.

Jenson had a disasterous Korean race that pretty much ended his bid, 2 races left. Lewis stayed in contention for one race longer, but he was dead and burried by Brazil with 1 race left. Anyone who thinks he had a realistc shot in Abu Dhabi is a moron, he was out of it.

So on that basis, we are back once again at the point where Hamilton fans are splitting hairs to make a sweeping general statement possible.

2012 - Button is less than a race win behind with 6 races to go, in my book Hamilton is NOT challenging for the title anyway. Vettel and Alonso will fight it out.

Yet again, you are splitting hairs, drawing a conclusion that suites you and presenting it as fact.

oh and PS. This would be a button fan, looking under the surface of your sweeping generalisations, as I and others do fairly often. Your closing comment is one hell of a stupid thing to say IMHO.


Jenson not being adaptable is why he has problems with updates. You should worry more about JB not having a really experienced teammate to copy setup from when he inevitably gets lost chasing mythical balance, like we've seen over the years.

Well atleast Perez is apparently very good with setup.

#516 thesham01

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:23

Annnnnnnnd again. 2010 Lewis 'challenged for the title' and Jenson didnt. I disagree.

Jenson had a disasterous Korean race that pretty much ended his bid, 2 races left. Lewis stayed in contention for one race longer, but he was dead and burried by Brazil with 1 race left. Anyone who thinks he had a realistc shot in Abu Dhabi is a moron, he was out of it.

So on that basis, we are back once again at the point where Hamilton fans are splitting hairs to make a sweeping general statement possible.

2012 - Button is less than a race win behind with 6 races to go, in my book Hamilton is NOT challenging for the title anyway. Vettel and Alonso will fight it out.

Yet again, you are splitting hairs, drawing a conclusion that suites you and presenting it as fact.

oh and PS. This would be a button fan, looking under the surface of your sweeping generalisations, as I and others do fairly often. Your closing comment is one hell of a stupid thing to say IMHO.


Maybe I got carried away with my final statement. My point is that a lot of Button fans refuse to look at context, that surely you can't deny? There is plenty evidence alone on this page.

As for challenging for the title:

In 2010 Button was never really in the title bid once it got serious; too many people ahead of him for starters, which included his team-mate being the better driver that year, making it all but impossible (bar non fault DNF's) for him to win it. Performance wise he never had a chance.

In 2012, Button was out of it from almost day dot. Hamilton is still in with a chance seeing as he would have won 3 of the last 4 if not for a non-fault DNF, this means he has the pace and form to challange for wins for the rest of the year. If Hamilton had won in Singapore (which I think we can all agree he would have), in the last 4 races Hamilton would have gained 40 odd points on Alonso. If that stays the same he will win the WDC. (I don't think that run will continue though). However, I think its fair to say Hamilton is still in the WDC, if only just.

Plus, the only reason Hamilton is only just in the race is because of bad luck, which is unlike the reasons for Button. Performance wise, Hamilton has challenged in 2 seasons. Performance wise Button has not.

#517 bauss

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:27

I'm guessing that Jenson made those comments before the Barcelona updates.

Next year, if McLaren produces updates which make Jenson slower, they won't go on the car.



to the detriment of the team.... just because you can't immediately find a perfect balance doesn't mean the updates do not make the car go faster.

Which is why even with LH gone, Button is still a long shot and needs nothing other than a rocket to win the WDC going up against Fred n co

#518 Burtros

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:30

Last time I checked Vettel and Hakkinen were double WDC's, and Barrichello has zero. To say that your comparison is misleading would be an understatement.


Actually, Mika went into 98 having been beaten by his team mate the year before, with no WDC's to his name and only 1 race win which he got in fairly lucky circumstances. Remarkably similar to Jenson going into 2009.

DC had all the tools to beat Mika if he was able to put them together - he just never did.

Sorry, but to accuse me of being misleading is utterly laughable.

#519 thesham01

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:31

to the detriment of the team.... just because you can't immediately find a perfect balance doesn't mean the updates do not make the car go faster.

Which is why even with LH gone, Button is still a long shot and needs nothing other than a rocket to win the WDC going up against Fred n co


With the regulations pretty much similar, teams will stay closely bunched together.

However, he might have a chance in 2014 if McLaren are on the ball.

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#520 BillBald

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 14:02

to the detriment of the team.... just because you can't immediately find a perfect balance doesn't mean the updates do not make the car go faster.

Which is why even with LH gone, Button is still a long shot and needs nothing other than a rocket to win the WDC going up against Fred n co


OK, so there might be a delay in introducing an update, which might make the car a couple of tenths slower (in Lewis' hands) than it would have been.

But for Jenson, it's different. If he can get a good balance, that's worth more to Jenson than a theoretical improvement which results in an unbalanced car. And provided the McLaren isn't off the pace of the other contenders, he will deliver if it's a car he can work with.



#521 stevesingo

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 14:27

All the BS about JB not being able to drive the car because he can't adapt could be spun another way. It is all about the reference point for the team as regards to how the car is driven. What if it was the other way around?

What if the engineers reference for how much energy was put in to the tryes was never compatible with other drivers?

What if LH's distinctive driving style was hampering development (unbeknown to the engineers) as the only reference the engineers had to work from in terms of driver input for the last 5yrs was LH?

Who is to say the 2013 McLaren is not going to be even better than the 2012?

Just throwing it out there and awaiting hysterical comments from the unreasonable...



#522 bauss

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 14:33

OK, so there might be a delay in introducing an update, which might make the car a couple of tenths slower (in Lewis' hands) than it would have been.

But for Jenson, it's different. If he can get a good balance, that's worth more to Jenson than a theoretical improvement which results in an unbalanced car. And provided the McLaren isn't off the pace of the other contenders, he will deliver if it's a car he can work with.


working with an unupdated car can never be an advantage going up against the big boys except you had a rocket to start with.

We already know even at its balanced best JB is still slower than LH so he is only gonna fall behind further or have the gap closed...depending on initial pace of cars.

If reports are to be believed, it is one of the reasons he faltered at the backend of 09. LH has actually been good for him in forcing him to adapt even if he had to do it one race later.

#523 BernieEc

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 14:39

Button is no doubt a good driver. on any day he could match any of the top drivers (My opinion Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso and to some extent Kimi). The thing about it is he is never consistent enough to have a sustained period of performance. Also I think the level the other drivers operate at is significantly higher than that of button. If he gets his "balance" right he might on his day give them a run for their money.

The flip side though is these drivers mentioned above also have the ability to go one step beyond and go an extra level.......this can be seen with Seb when he outqualifies his team mate on certain occassions with about 5/6 tenths (in the same car) or Alonso and Massa. if button pulls it out of the bag it is very possible he could outqualify Hamilton by a tenth ...maybe 2....but when Hamilton digs deep and finds that super level...Button is left trailing by about 8tenths...sometimes even a second.

Whilst JB can take refuge in the fact that if he has the right balance he could compete with those mentioned ......the thing is.....it doesnt happen too often in fact (rarely) his fans should also understand that these other drivers still have a gear they can also move into that they rarely do unless they also have the absolute perfect conditions.

I do support Hamilton and some might say am slightly biased but over a like a 10 season period ....I would put my money on Hamilton. any betting man would unless one's personal opinion of him clouds the talent he has as a driver......

Am not sure why this arguement always rages ......I know some don't like Hamilton and prefer Button (thats understable and everyone has their preferences) but you shouldn't blindly deny the fact that Hamilton is more naturally gifted than button (My opinion...before u bite my head off)

Ask yourselves if you were forced to bet who would you put your money on. Button has certainly tried and has in no way been totally outshined by LH and that is credit to his dedication and the ability to seize his opportunities when he see's them.......but he is still not as good as Hamilton.....



#524 Kvothe

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 14:40

OK, so there might be a delay in introducing an update, which might make the car a couple of tenths slower (in Lewis' hands) than it would have been.

But for Jenson, it's different. If he can get a good balance, that's worth more to Jenson than a theoretical improvement which results in an unbalanced car. And provided the McLaren isn't off the pace of the other contenders, he will deliver if it's a car he can work with.


Exactly worth more to JB, but those couple of lost tenths in today's F1 can sometimes mean the difference between Q3 and Q2 or 2 and 8th.

Then, no matter how much JB delivers he's always trying to make up ground.

#525 Burtros

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 14:47

Button is no doubt a good driver. on any day he could match any of the top drivers (My opinion Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso and to some extent Kimi). The thing about it is he is never consistent enough to have a sustained period of performance. Also I think the level the other drivers operate at is significantly higher than that of button. If he gets his "balance" right he might on his day give them a run for their money.

The flip side though is these drivers mentioned above also have the ability to go one step beyond and go an extra level.......this can be seen with Seb when he outqualifies his team mate on certain occassions with about 5/6 tenths (in the same car) or Alonso and Massa. if button pulls it out of the bag it is very possible he could outqualify Hamilton by a tenth ...maybe 2....but when Hamilton digs deep and finds that super level...Button is left trailing by about 8tenths...sometimes even a second.

Whilst JB can take refuge in the fact that if he has the right balance he could compete with those mentioned ......the thing is.....it doesnt happen too often in fact (rarely) his fans should also understand that these other drivers still have a gear they can also move into that they rarely do unless they also have the absolute perfect conditions.

I do support Hamilton and some might say am slightly biased but over a like a 10 season period ....I would put my money on Hamilton. any betting man would unless one's personal opinion of him clouds the talent he has as a driver......

Am not sure why this arguement always rages ......I know some don't like Hamilton and prefer Button (thats understable and everyone has their preferences) but you shouldn't blindly deny the fact that Hamilton is more naturally gifted than button (My opinion...before u bite my head off)

Ask yourselves if you were forced to bet who would you put your money on. Button has certainly tried and has in no way been totally outshined by LH and that is credit to his dedication and the ability to seize his opportunities when he see's them.......but he is still not as good as Hamilton.....


I'd call that a pretty fair assesment of Button and his abilities. Perhaps an overly kind assesment of Hamilton, who I believe will throughout his career drop many points that most other top level F1 drivers wouldnt. Its not all about Natural talent at the end of this day and nor is this thread.

Its a very poor assesment of the thread though. I think when drivers are as closely matched despite being so very different its bound to provoke debate. I wouldnt dream of casting aspersions about either side as 'The Button Fans' or 'The Hamilton Fans' as we are all individuals with our own opinions.

Edited by Burtros, 02 October 2012 - 14:48.


#526 Lazy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:03

Button is no doubt a good driver. on any day he could match any of the top drivers (My opinion Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso and to some extent Kimi). The thing about it is he is never consistent enough to have a sustained period of performance. Also I think the level the other drivers operate at is significantly higher than that of button. If he gets his "balance" right he might on his day give them a run for their money.

The flip side though is these drivers mentioned above also have the ability to go one step beyond and go an extra level.......this can be seen with Seb when he outqualifies his team mate on certain occassions with about 5/6 tenths (in the same car) or Alonso and Massa. if button pulls it out of the bag it is very possible he could outqualify Hamilton by a tenth ...maybe 2....but when Hamilton digs deep and finds that super level...Button is left trailing by about 8tenths...sometimes even a second.

Whilst JB can take refuge in the fact that if he has the right balance he could compete with those mentioned ......the thing is.....it doesnt happen too often in fact (rarely) his fans should also understand that these other drivers still have a gear they can also move into that they rarely do unless they also have the absolute perfect conditions.

I do support Hamilton and some might say am slightly biased but over a like a 10 season period ....I would put my money on Hamilton. any betting man would unless one's personal opinion of him clouds the talent he has as a driver......

Am not sure why this arguement always rages ......I know some don't like Hamilton and prefer Button (thats understable and everyone has their preferences) but you shouldn't blindly deny the fact that Hamilton is more naturally gifted than button (My opinion...before u bite my head off)

Ask yourselves if you were forced to bet who would you put your money on. Button has certainly tried and has in no way been totally outshined by LH and that is credit to his dedication and the ability to seize his opportunities when he see's them.......but he is still not as good as Hamilton.....


6 wins out of 7 races is a pretty consistent level of performance. Last season he was being lauded as Mr. Consistency. Actually every time he has had decent car he has being very strong and consistent. If he has been inconsistent, it has been in qualifying, but not in races. As much as some people would like to attribute inconsistency this year to driver performance, it was a setup problem, whoevers fault that might be.

Hamilton really pulled it out of the bag in Singapore and out qualified him by 0.5 secs. Jenson pulled it out the bag in Spa and out qualified Lewis by 0.8 secs.

You mention Vettel but I think Buttons performance in the Brawn indicates he would have beaten Vettel in the RB6 and probably matched him in the RB7.

I agree that Hamilton is the naturally more gifted driver in terms of car control, but Button has other qualities that enable him to match Lewis.

#527 BernieEc

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:06

I'd call that a pretty fair assesment of Button and his abilities. Perhaps an overly kind assesment of Hamilton, who I believe will throughout his career drop many points that most other top level F1 drivers wouldnt. Its not all about Natural talent at the end of this day and nor is this thread.

Its a very poor assesment of the thread though. I think when drivers are as closely matched despite being so very different its bound to provoke debate. I wouldnt dream of casting aspersions about either side as 'The Button Fans' or 'The Hamilton Fans' as we are all individuals with our own opinions.


That was not my intention but I had to generalise under these circumstances. if I had been a bit direct to some posters that would have been couter-productive . Yes there is a possibility that Hamilton could drop points due to his over-aggressive nature.....although he is showing this year that (Bar the Maldonado) incident that he has matured driving wise. If this is going to be for a sustained period of only time will tell.

A lot of Button fans respect hamilton and likewise. Thiough there are some from both sides whose passion and preferences turns it into a mud-slinging contest. The generalization was in reference to these fan(atics) apologies if you felt caught in the crossfire. :)

#528 peroa

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:08

6 wins out of 7 races is a pretty consistent level of performance. Last season he was being lauded as Mr. Consistency. Actually every time he has had decent car he has being very strong and consistent. If he has been inconsistent, it has been in qualifying, but not in races. As much as some people would like to attribute inconsistency this year to driver performance, it was a setup problem, whoevers fault that might be.

Hamilton really pulled it out of the bag in Singapore and out qualified him by 0.5 secs. Jenson pulled it out the bag in Spa and out qualified Lewis by 0.8 secs.

You mention Vettel but I think Buttons performance in the Brawn indicates he would have beaten Vettel in the RB6 and probably matched him in the RB7.

I agree that Hamilton is the naturally more gifted driver in terms of car control, but Button has other qualities that enable him to match Lewis.


Very true...

#529 BernieEc

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:10

6 wins out of 7 races is a pretty consistent level of performance. Last season he was being lauded as Mr. Consistency. Actually every time he has had decent car he has being very strong and consistent. If he has been inconsistent, it has been in qualifying, but not in races. As much as some people would like to attribute inconsistency this year to driver performance, it was a setup problem, whoevers fault that might be.

Hamilton really pulled it out of the bag in Singapore and out qualified him by 0.5 secs. Jenson pulled it out the bag in Spa and out qualified Lewis by 0.8 secs.
You mention Vettel but I think Buttons performance in the Brawn indicates he would have beaten Vettel in the RB6 and probably matched him in the RB7.
I agree that Hamilton is the naturally more gifted driver in terms of car control, but Button has other qualities that enable him to match Lewis.


I chuckled when I saw that..... :) but hey thats a debate for another thread..........

please...please don't let the vettel fans hear that..........some might burst a vessel!!!!!

#530 thesham01

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:11

6 wins out of 7 races is a pretty consistent level of performance. Last season he was being lauded as Mr. Consistency. Actually every time he has had decent car he has being very strong and consistent. If he has been inconsistent, it has been in qualifying, but not in races. As much as some people would like to attribute inconsistency this year to driver performance, it was a setup problem, whoevers fault that might be.

Hamilton really pulled it out of the bag in Singapore and out qualified him by 0.5 secs. Jenson pulled it out the bag in Spa and out qualified Lewis by 0.8 secs.

You mention Vettel but I think Buttons performance in the Brawn indicates he would have beaten Vettel in the RB6 and probably matched him in the RB7.

I agree that Hamilton is the naturally more gifted driver in terms of car control, but Button has other qualities that enable him to match Lewis.


And in only one of those weekends did they have the same equipment.

#531 BernieEc

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:13

And in only one of those weekends did they have the same equipment.


Let this one pass...LH has outqaulified by over 5 tenths on many occassions...its okay to let button have this one......it doesn't matter if he used the batmobile wing

#532 thesham01

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:19

6 wins out of 7 races is a pretty consistent level of performance. Last season he was being lauded as Mr. Consistency. Actually every time he has had decent car he has being very strong and consistent. If he has been inconsistent, it has been in qualifying, but not in races. As much as some people would like to attribute inconsistency this year to driver performance, it was a setup problem, whoevers fault that might be.

Hamilton really pulled it out of the bag in Singapore and out qualified him by 0.5 secs. Jenson pulled it out the bag in Spa and out qualified Lewis by 0.8 secs.

You mention Vettel but I think Buttons performance in the Brawn indicates he would have beaten Vettel in the RB6 and probably matched him in the RB7.

I agree that Hamilton is the naturally more gifted driver in terms of car control, but Button has other qualities that enable him to match Lewis.


What evidence? Do you have any evidence that Button would out-qualify Vettel? Because Vettel was untouchable from the front in 2011.



#533 Lazy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:19

Let this one pass...LH has outqaulified by over 5 tenths on many occassions...its okay to let button have this one......it doesn't matter if he used the batmobile wing


:)


#534 Kvothe

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:21

You mention Vettel but I think Buttons performance in the Brawn indicates he would have beaten Vettel in the RB6 and probably matched him in the RB7.

I agree that Hamilton is the naturally more gifted driver in terms of car control, but Button has other qualities that enable him to match Lewis.


The rest of your post aside I agree with this and actually wrote a post on it in of the first pages in the JB thread.

I've always rated JB at the same level as Vettel and this was pretty much confirmed for me when Vettel struggled with the balance of the car at the beginning of the season when the team were struggling to make the exhaust system work, while Mark was frequently out qualifying him, and beating him on merit. As soon as the car came good Vettel was right back up there beating Mark. (of course there are other factors but this is a simplification).

Edited by Kvothe, 02 October 2012 - 15:24.


#535 TheJerkingKnee

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:24

I have quite enjoyed lurking and reading this thread over the last few years but have never contributed. Thanks all for the entertainment.

However, as a final gesture, I would offer this:

Both Lewis and Jenson are very good drivers amongst a highly competitive field that only really includes people at the sharp end of their trade. The differences between the two are marginal and really boil down to, IMO and notwithstanding events outside of the dirver's control, how often each can maximize the potential of the car based on the circuit in question. I would suggest that Lewis has done this more often than Jenson - very much so regarding qualy and for the most part maintaining that qualy advantage on race day. Jenson is a top class driver and sets a challenge that if Lewis does not perform at his best (and in some cases, even if he does), he will be soundly beaten.

I would agree with the sentiment that Lewis never really had a shot at the title in 2010, such was the RB dominance. However, in the early part of 2011 it seemed that Lewis was the only driver capable of realy challenging the RB's. He fell away in the latter part of the year and was well beaten by Jenson who didn't fall away and was good value for the battle of the team mates. However, at no point did Jenson offer any title challenge against SV in 2011 and although competitive in 2010, was less so than Lewis. This year, when comfortable with the car/set-up JB has been very good but that has not happened often enough. The points table this year does not reflect the difference between the drivers.

Going back to events out of the driver's control, there seems to have been a narrative developing, with "facts" plucked out to suit it that Lewis has been outdone by Jenson or the scores are closer than anticipated because he is too aggresive on the machinery. There seems to be little in the way of evidence to support this narrative. A number of intangibles seem to be offered such that Jenson is "smoother" without any reference to how that is measures or that Lewis is harder on the tyres/ to aggresive without any reference to dat beyond the DNF. There also seems to be an unwillingness to accept that they have both had days when they have done well or not, as the case may be. FWIW, it seems (according to the Beeb) that Jenson's gearbox has the same issue as Lewis' had at Singapore and requires a change - go figure.

I wish them both well for 2012 and will miss this "vs" thread. However, I can't think of any scenario between now and the end of the season that would make me belive that Jenson has consistently had the beating of Lewis over their time together.

TL;DR - Lewis Wins!



#536 fed up

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:32

I have quite enjoyed lurking and reading this thread over the last few years but have never contributed. Thanks all for the entertainment.

However, as a final gesture, I would offer this:

Both Lewis and Jenson are very good drivers amongst a highly competitive field that only really includes people at the sharp end of their trade. The differences between the two are marginal and really boil down to, IMO and notwithstanding events outside of the dirver's control, how often each can maximize the potential of the car based on the circuit in question. I would suggest that Lewis has done this more often than Jenson - very much so regarding qualy and for the most part maintaining that qualy advantage on race day. Jenson is a top class driver and sets a challenge that if Lewis does not perform at his best (and in some cases, even if he does), he will be soundly beaten.

I would agree with the sentiment that Lewis never really had a shot at the title in 2010, such was the RB dominance. However, in the early part of 2011 it seemed that Lewis was the only driver capable of realy challenging the RB's. He fell away in the latter part of the year and was well beaten by Jenson who didn't fall away and was good value for the battle of the team mates. However, at no point did Jenson offer any title challenge against SV in 2011 and although competitive in 2010, was less so than Lewis. This year, when comfortable with the car/set-up JB has been very good but that has not happened often enough. The points table this year does not reflect the difference between the drivers.

Going back to events out of the driver's control, there seems to have been a narrative developing, with "facts" plucked out to suit it that Lewis has been outdone by Jenson or the scores are closer than anticipated because he is too aggresive on the machinery. There seems to be little in the way of evidence to support this narrative. A number of intangibles seem to be offered such that Jenson is "smoother" without any reference to how that is measures or that Lewis is harder on the tyres/ to aggresive without any reference to dat beyond the DNF. There also seems to be an unwillingness to accept that they have both had days when they have done well or not, as the case may be. FWIW, it seems (according to the Beeb) that Jenson's gearbox has the same issue as Lewis' had at Singapore and requires a change - go figure.

I wish them both well for 2012 and will miss this "vs" thread. However, I can't think of any scenario between now and the end of the season that would make me belive that Jenson has consistently had the beating of Lewis over their time together.
TL;DR - Lewis Wins!


Nothing further to add :kiss:

#537 Kvothe

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:32

I would agree with the sentiment that Lewis never really had a shot at the title in 2010, such was the RB dominance. However, in the early part of 2011 it seemed that Lewis was the only driver capable of realy challenging the RB's. He fell away in the latter part of the year and was well beaten by Jenson who didn't fall away and was good value for the battle of the team mates. However, at no point did Jenson offer any title challenge against SV in 2011 and although competitive in 2010, was less so than Lewis. This year, when comfortable with the car/set-up JB has been very good but that has not happened often enough. The points table this year does not reflect the difference between the drivers.

TL;DR - Lewis Wins!


If his wheel rim hadn't of exploded in Spain he would have won the WDC.

#538 zack1994

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:41

You're comparing Barrichello (who had brake issues but got the better of Button later in the year) to Mika and Seb? :rotfl:

Once again someone mentions rubens struggles with the car but forget button's
Nice one mate

#539 Burtros

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:45

If his wheel rim hadn't of exploded in Spain he would have won the WDC.


How can anyone who follows F1 think its that simple? an Astonishing comment from a regular poster.

by that thinking, If he hadnt driven like a total tool at the start of the Itallian GP and put his car somewhere that was never going to work, then he would have been WDC.

if Alonso didnt crash out at Spa, he would have been WDC.

And who knows where Jenson would have been were it not for the team error in Monaco or being topedo'ed by Vettel in Belgium.

Edited by Burtros, 02 October 2012 - 15:46.


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#540 mlsnoopy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:48

6 wins out of 7 races is a pretty consistent level of performance. Last season he was being lauded as Mr. Consistency. Actually every time he has had decent car he has being very strong and consistent. If he has been inconsistent, it has been in qualifying, but not in races. As much as some people would like to attribute inconsistency this year to driver performance, it was a setup problem, whoevers fault that might be.

Hamilton really pulled it out of the bag in Singapore and out qualified him by 0.5 secs. Jenson pulled it out the bag in Spa and out qualified Lewis by 0.8 secs.You mention Vettel but I think Buttons performance in the Brawn indicates he would have beaten Vettel in the RB6 and probably matched him in the RB7.

I agree that Hamilton is the naturally more gifted driver in terms of car control, but Button has other qualities that enable him to match Lewis.


Let's ignore the teams help. Shall we. That is what you and everybody is constantly doing. The team screws up and than you start making stupid claims.

#541 mlsnoopy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:50

How can anyone who follows F1 think its that simple? an Astonishing comment from a regular poster.

by that thinking, If he hadn't driven like a total tool at the start of the Italian GP and put his car somewhere that was never going to work, then he would have been WDC.

if Alonso didn't crash out at Spa, he would have been WDC.

And who knows where Jenson would have been were it not for the team error in Monaco or being topedo'ed by Vettel in Belgium.


So why do you single out his only mistake?
What about wrong strategies in Malaysia, China, Australia, or mechanical problems in Hungary and Suzuka. I just can't understand why do you guys continue to ignore the huge number of mistakes that the team did in the past 3 years.

#542 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:58

The trolling in this thread, while never in short supply, has been boiling over for the last few days. It must stop.

The thread is to discuss Hamilton & Button and the intra-team rivalry at McLaren. Despite the year mentioned in the headline it is impossible to judge the drivers without being coloured by what has gone before so whether this is recognised or ignored for the point of the discussion is, well, up for discussion if not agreement.

However, Vettel, Couthard, Barrichello, Webber, Perez etc are all very clearly off topic.

If you wish to discuss specific incidents or factors which might have wider implication than the relative assessment of the drivers, start a new thread.

Calling someone a 'fanboy' or 'troll' is a personal attack. Stating that unless people agree with you they are 'insane' is an attack and it must stop. If someone does it, report it and DO NOT respond to it otherwise it becomes part of the conversation and impossible to remove so it gets to stay, making the place even more unpleasant than it needs to be.

I do not want to close this thread but the poor level of conversation and speed with which it moves is such that I am really seeing few other options. This thread will be closed if people continue to troll, fail to report attacks, or respond to them.

#543 Kvothe

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:58

How can anyone who follows F1 think its that simple? an Astonishing comment from a regular poster.

by that thinking, If he hadnt driven like a total tool at the start of the Itallian GP and put his car somewhere that was never going to work, then he would have been WDC.

if Alonso didnt crash out at Spa, he would have been WDC.

And who knows where Jenson would have been were it not for the team error in Monaco or being topedo'ed by Vettel in Belgium.


The point I'm responding too is that he never had had a shot at the WDC in 2010.

Of course it's simplistic I'm merely point out that the above point was wrong by showing that but for one mechanical problem he would have won it.

Of course there are other factors but FYI he lost quite a few more points through mechanical issues than on track incidents and mistakes and imo had the least on track incidents and mistakes than any other WDC contender going into the final race.

#544 ForzaGTR

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:12

Maybe I got carried away with my final statement. My point is that a lot of Button fans refuse to look at context, that surely you can't deny? There is plenty evidence alone on this page.

As for challenging for the title:

In 2010 Button was never really in the title bid once it got serious; too many people ahead of him for starters, which included his team-mate being the better driver that year, making it all but impossible (bar non fault DNF's) for him to win it. Performance wise he never had a chance.

In 2012, Button was out of it from almost day dot. Hamilton is still in with a chance seeing as he would have won 3 of the last 4 if not for a non-fault DNF, this means he has the pace and form to challange for wins for the rest of the year. If Hamilton had won in Singapore (which I think we can all agree he would have), in the last 4 races Hamilton would have gained 40 odd points on Alonso. If that stays the same he will win the WDC. (I don't think that run will continue though). However, I think its fair to say Hamilton is still in the WDC, if only just.

Plus, the only reason Hamilton is only just in the race is because of bad luck, which is unlike the reasons for Button. Performance wise, Hamilton has challenged in 2 seasons. Performance wise Button has not.


Not to mention Jenson shows no sign of being able to win multiple races before the end of the season, he just doesn't qualify high enough. He's never going to catch Vettel and Alonso unless he improves his qualifying, which he can't because he is slower.

#545 Lazy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:21

Not to mention Jenson shows no sign of being able to win multiple races before the end of the season, he just doesn't qualify high enough. He's never going to catch Vettel and Alonso unless he improves his qualifying, which he can't because he is slower.


FA - 3 wins
LH - 3 wins
JB - 2 wins
SV- 2 wins
MW- 2wins

#546 Lazy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:23

In 2012, Button was out of it from almost day dot.


Yup, I knew he was out of it as soon as he won the 1st race.

#547 zack1994

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:24

Yup, I knew he was out of it as soon as he won the 1st race.

:lol:

#548 ForzaGTR

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:32

FA - 3 wins
LH - 3 wins
JB - 2 wins
SV- 2 wins
MW- 2wins


I actually mean in the remaining races. But I wasn't very clear.

I just can't see Button qualifying consistently high enough in the remaining races to win the title. However, Lewis could win most if not all the remaining races if he encounters no more reliability issues.

#549 Lazy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:55

Not to mention Jenson shows no sign of being able to win multiple races before the end of the season, he just doesn't qualify high enough. He's never going to catch Vettel and Alonso unless he improves his qualifying, which he can't because he is slower.



FA - 3 wins
LH - 3 wins
JB - 2 wins
SV- 2 wins
MW- 2wins



I actually mean in the remaining races. But I wasn't very clear.

I just can't see Button qualifying consistently high enough in the remaining races to win the title. However, Lewis could win most if not all the remaining races if he encounters no more reliability issues.



My point was that all 5 of them have shown every "sign" of being able to win this year and Jenson's qualifying deficiencies, as you perceive them, haven't stopped him winning in the past.

Lewis has shown no sign of being capable of multiple wins in his F1 career, only Jenson and Vettel have achieved the sort of multiple wins necessary.

The truth is that it's very unlikely that either will win the WDC. To win it, Lewis would have to display a level of pace and consistency that he has yet to display in F1, plus a huge dollop of luck (and we all know he won't get that :) ).

#550 maverick69

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:13

My point was that all 5 of them have shown every "sign" of being able to win this year and Jenson's qualifying deficiencies, as you perceive them, haven't stopped him winning in the past.

Lewis has shown no sign of being capable of multiple wins in his F1 career, only Jenson and Vettel have achieved the sort of multiple wins necessary.

The truth is that it's very unlikely that either will win the WDC. To win it, Lewis would have to display a level of pace and consistency that he has yet to display in F1, plus a huge dollop of luck (and we all know he won't get that :) ).


So (seeing as this is the 2012 thread) you think that Hamilton, per se, hasn't shown title winning pace and consistency this year?

Edited by maverick69, 03 October 2012 - 12:21.