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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#551 Lazy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:21

So (seeing as this is the 2012 thread) you think that Hamilton hasn't shown title winning pace and consistency this year?


That's a very different point that has been clouded by various factors this year.

In the context of the current debate, ie the pace and consistency to win all the remaining races, no he hasn't.

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#552 thesham01

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:23

Yup, I knew he was out of it as soon as he won the 1st race.


Which is why I said 'almost'.

I'm also still waiting for your rebuttal on Hamiltons bad luck this year.

#553 thesham01

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:24

That's a very different point that has been clouded by various factors this year.

In the context of the current debate, ie the pace and consistency to win all the remaining races, no he hasn't.



Yes he certainly has. He would have won 3 out of the last 4 if it were not for bad luck. The other 1 out of that 4 was also a non-fault DNF.

#554 Lazy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:29

Which is why I said 'almost'.

I'm also still waiting for your rebuttal on Hamiltons bad luck this year.


You think he was out of it after China?

Check back in the thread.

#555 maverick69

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:29

Yes he certainly has. He would have won 3 out of the last 4 if it were not for bad luck. The other 1 out of that 4 was also a non-fault DNF.


Quite......

#556 bauss

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:32

That's a very different point that has been clouded by various factors this year.

In the context of the current debate, ie the pace and consistency to win all the remaining races, no he hasn't.


:) really ?

He's been on pole in 3 out of the last 4. The one he missed out, we know too well why he did..

He won 2 of those 3 and did not win the last through a non fault DNF.

The main thing stopping him from winning the majority of the coming races would be Mac reliability...assuming the current pecking order stays the same and this flexi wings stuff is ado about nothing...but I think you already know that.

folks just like to argue :lol:

#557 Lazy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:41

:) really ?

He's been on pole in 3 out of the last 4. The one he missed out, we know too well why he did..


Because he didn't drive fast enough?

#558 Lazy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:42

folks just like to argue :lol:


Really? You're going to put that out there, on this thread?

#559 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:43

on current form I think Hamilton has a good chance to win this weekend, Button has a good shot at a podium as well, I think McLaren will be good in Suzuka.

I like Lewis and Jenson so I don't get involved in the squabbling on here :p

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#560 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 13:01

Which is why I said 'almost'.

I'm also still waiting for your rebuttal on Hamiltons bad luck this year.

Considering the dishonest and egregious choice of words used by you to characterise the start of Button's season, as well as your stated position that those who won't recognise a 'close to 100 point' gap to Hamilton are 'insane', I suggest that nobody should waste their time providing you with any sort of rebuttal.

#561 Boxerevo

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 14:07

Considering the dishonest and egregious choice of words used by you to characterise the start of Button's season, as well as your stated position that those who won't recognise a 'close to 100 point' gap to Hamilton are 'insane', I suggest that nobody should waste their time providing you with any sort of rebuttal.

One hundred point...i wouldn't say that,but less then fourty is bs.

When i see the table points i really get scared,all the hard work for that small gap.


Edited by Boxerevo, 03 October 2012 - 14:09.


#562 thesham01

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:24

Considering the dishonest and egregious choice of words used by you to characterise the start of Button's season, as well as your stated position that those who won't recognise a 'close to 100 point' gap to Hamilton are 'insane', I suggest that nobody should waste their time providing you with any sort of rebuttal.


Thats the easiest way out though when you have no rebuttal; say I'm a bad person who doesn't deserve a reply. Okay, how about this: If anyone can show me how Hamilton should not have 60 odd more points, I'll quit the forums and never come back. You can IP ban me.

As for the dishonest and overly poor choice of words about Button; I'm not sure what they were? I'd like to have a chance to defend myself but I'm not sure what exactly they were.

Edited by thesham01, 03 October 2012 - 15:25.


#563 WitnessX

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:30

Nothing to do with driving style and everything to do with the individual gearboxes themself. How they react to a problem depends entirely on how the fault manifests itself. For example McLaren said they'd had the same problem before with gearboxes in the past with the same warning but had been able to get through the race without it breaking down, which is why they were surprised at the DNF, so it makes sense that JB could make it through the race unscathed but still need a gearbox change. Similarly last year both Lewis and Vettel both had gearbox failures but Lewis' resulted in him losing gears cumulatively before having to retire while Vettel was able to continue albeit at a slower speed.

Vettel does not drive a McLaren. In your example Button did not have any gearbox problems.. and there is nothing to suggest that they both had the same problem. (Although the rumor at the time was that Vettels gearbox had Webber-winitis)

In this particular case it appears that the defect was introduced in Singapore, as it appears to have affected both cars.
If this "problem" was not seen during or post Monza inspection then the gearbox itself would only be a normal gearbox going into only into its second cycle.

So as far as I can see they both started with normal intact gearboxes. The chances are the damage was caused solely by this specific problem at Singapore.

The idiosyncrasies of their driving may or may not have influence on the mechanical "well-being" of the cars.I believe they do. However physical nature does care about belief, so in the end our beliefs are irrelevant.

Certainly the root cause of this particular problem was not in the either drivers hands and we don't know defect was inherently more "pronounced" on one car than the other.
we also don't have enough information to know whether Lewis could have lasted longer in the race if he had not made the mistakes in qualifying, or perhaps less rough riding over the curbs but in the end he suffered a huge points loss.

Given that all things should be equal, the chances of a driver having gearbox problems five times and his teammate not are 1/32. Perhaps its just down to luck, or it could be an incompetent mechanic? or is it something the driver is doing?.

At Singapore one car got to the end, the other only half way.

Luck? .. perhaps, perhaps not.

http://www.f1complet.../view/1286/389/

#564 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 16:35

In 2012, Button was out of it from almost day dot.

Thats the easiest way out though when you have no rebuttal; say I'm a bad person who doesn't deserve a reply. Okay, how about this: If anyone can show me how Hamilton should not have 60 odd more points, I'll quit the forums and never come back. You can IP ban me.

As for the dishonest and overly poor choice of words about Button; I'm not sure what they were? I'd like to have a chance to defend myself but I'm not sure what exactly they were.

It should be easy to find because you included 'almost' in the sentence and thought that made it OK. You deliberately misrepresented the position which could have been very easily avoided and it simply highlights an opinion which is unshakeable or designed to inflame. I'm sure I'll be proven wrong on this but I don't see why anyone would even engage with that sort of approach in a positive way, especially considering any attempt to rework the points is not going to be received well unless it gives Hamilton a 100 point difference.

#565 stanga

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 16:46

It should be easy to find because you included 'almost' in the sentence and thought that made it OK. You deliberately misrepresented the position which could have been very easily avoided and it simply highlights an opinion which is unshakeable or designed to inflame. I'm sure I'll be proven wrong on this but I don't see why anyone would even engage with that sort of approach in a positive way, especially considering any attempt to rework the points is not going to be received well unless it gives Hamilton a 100 point difference.


Are you that sensitive to comments about Button?

Wow.

#566 BernieEc

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 16:55

Are you that sensitive to comments about Button?

Wow.

U had to ask ??? .....or what do you think his nick refers to ?

#567 P123

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 17:03

Thats the easiest way out though when you have no rebuttal; say I'm a bad person who doesn't deserve a reply. Okay, how about this: If anyone can show me how Hamilton should not have 60 odd more points, I'll quit the forums and never come back. You can IP ban me.

As for the dishonest and overly poor choice of words about Button; I'm not sure what they were? I'd like to have a chance to defend myself but I'm not sure what exactly they were.


It really doesn't matter, because they all could have more points due to a number of ifs and buts...... the problem is people tend to argue the ifs and but based on one driver without any consideration to the fact that the ifs and buts have consequences throughout the entire field.

#568 robefc

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 17:30

Luck? .. perhaps, perhaps not.

http://www.f1complet.../view/1286/389/


If you take the last 3 years the odds on lewis getting 6 failures to jenson's 1 with his driving not being a factor seem very small.

However, how many failures did he have prior to 2010? I can't remember more than one but could be wrong (pretty big one mind!). And what are the odds of a driver who apparently induces gearbox issues with his driving style having so few issues in 3 years (2007-2009)?



#569 Watkins74

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 18:17

It really doesn't matter, because they all could have more points due to a number of ifs and buts...... the problem is people tend to argue the ifs and but based on one driver without any consideration to the fact that the ifs and buts have consequences throughout the entire field.

:up: Well said.

#570 Peter Perfect

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 18:40

..

Any sane person can see that Hamilton should be close to 100 points clear of Button this year, and deservedly.

:rotfl: Absolute genius! That must surely be the pinacle of this parallel world thread. My hat is off to you sir/madam.


#571 Lazy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 18:45

It really doesn't matter, because they all could have more points due to a number of ifs and buts...... the problem is people tend to argue the ifs and but based on one driver without any consideration to the fact that the ifs and buts have consequences throughout the entire field.


:up:

#572 undersquare

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 18:54

It really doesn't matter, because they all could have more points due to a number of ifs and buts...... the problem is people tend to argue the ifs and but based on one driver without any consideration to the fact that the ifs and buts have consequences throughout the entire field.

Hmm, well part of the problem here is some people try to argue that because it's complex or somebody else has only covered one side of the coin, the points represent the entire story of the driving and shouldn't be adjusted at all.

#573 Obi Offiah

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 18:59

folks just like to argue :lol:

You can say that again.

#574 BillBald

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:48

If you take the last 3 years the odds on lewis getting 6 failures to jenson's 1 with his driving not being a factor seem very small.

However, how many failures did he have prior to 2010? I can't remember more than one but could be wrong (pretty big one mind!). And what are the odds of a driver who apparently induces gearbox issues with his driving style having so few issues in 3 years (2007-2009)?


It may be a case of Jenson being very kind to the machinery rather than Lewis having a problem.

ISTR that Ross Brawn said something about Jenson causing very little wear and tear on the car.



#575 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:36

Are you that sensitive to comments about Button?

Wow.

Not at all. I probably share some of your (honest) assessment of his ability compared with Hamilton, but if I started a discussion saying that unless you agree with my point of view then you're a dipshit, are you likely to respond reasonably or not?

#576 bauss

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:52

It may be a case of Jenson being very kind to the machinery rather than Lewis having a problem.

ISTR that Ross Brawn said something about Jenson causing very little wear and tear on the car.


I thought after Monza, folks wont bring about such talk again...

I guessed wrong... its back to oh so silky smoove Jenson...gearbox whisperer

smh

#577 Obi Offiah

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:12

I thought after Monza, folks wont bring about such talk again...

I guessed wrong... its back to oh so silky smoove Jenson...gearbox whisperer

smh

Bauss, there may be some truth in that, however that doesn't mean a system should not survive being used more aggressively. A driver that hacksaws away at the steering wheel with an end result being double the cycle of inputs in comparison to his team mate, shouldn't expect a steering failure despite there being slightly more wear on the components.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 03 October 2012 - 23:13.


#578 whitevisor

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 00:43

I thought after Monza, folks wont bring about such talk again...

I guessed wrong... its back to oh so silky smoove Jenson...gearbox whisperer

smh


Button was too rough and ragged over those Monza curbs. Darned man likely broke the fuel pick up tube.

#579 WitnessX

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:04

If you take the last 3 years the odds on lewis getting 6 failures to jenson's 1 with his driving not being a factor seem very small.

However, how many failures did he have prior to 2010? I can't remember more than one but could be wrong (pretty big one mind!). And what are the odds of a driver who apparently induces gearbox issues with his driving style having so few issues in 3 years (2007-2009)?

But are they still using the same transmission package they used in 2009 and earlier?

I doubt it. They are continually changing the component designs in order to make the car quicker - lighter to get a better weight distribution, size for aerodynamics. Also 2010 was the introduction of no-refuelling, so the cars were running heavier than before.

It may be be that they have come a lot closer to that "fine line" between optimum physical characteristics vs. robustness to the point where the "idiosyncrasies" of how they drive and their approach to the car may be making a difference ("driving styles" to me is not really the correct term).

Don't get me wrong, unless the car is mis-used I don't blame the driver. And I don't blame the designers either because they are trying to make the quickest car.

Edited by WitnessX, 04 October 2012 - 06:18.


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#580 Fat Albert

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:19


Is there another way to compare Button & Hamilton?

In 53 races as team mates Hamilton has score 609pts, Button 603... 6pts

At the same time, if public domain information is to be believed, Hamilton has cost Mclaren/Mercedes/Vodafone $60m, Button $25m... $6m an extra point

If you were a team principal, who has given better value for money?

#581 stevesingo

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:48

The Hamilton fans are unbelievable!

Early 2010: JB will be destroyed
End 2010: "JB was destroyed" which is not quite the case
Early 2011: JB was lucky last year blah blah, LH lost his RE Blah Blah ect ad nausium.
End 2011: LH has had his worst season ever, that's the only reason blah blah, Martin Whitmarsh Blah Blah
Early 2012: LH will show him this year.
Now: LH would have been much further ahead if it wasn't for all of F1 ganging up on him.

The future...

End 2012

Option one: LH finishes substantially ahead of JB

That showed Em!! Ignoring the same possibility of the "worst season ever" effect.

Option 2: It's pretty close all said and done.

If it wasn't for all the bad luck blah blah

Option 3 JB overhauls LH: All that bad luck Blah Blah, Team didn't support him 'cause he's leaving blah blah.

Begining 2013: It is a building year for LH, don't expect too much. Edited to add the latest gem from LH

LH, "The car that I'm in right now is a car that I've developed. Next year will be an evolution of the car that I've helped develop and that will be a championship contender"


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103036

End 2013: Imagine how well LH would have done in that McLaren if he hadn't been driven out of the team by the Evil MW and JB. Nico was always going to do better as he is settled in.


Getting the excuses in already. Must have been taking tips off some of the the posters in this thread.



#582 as65p

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:34

"The car that I'm in right now is a car that I've developed. Next year will be an evolution of the car that I've helped develop and that will be a championship contender.


:lol: One can just about sense how engineers must love a guy like that.

#583 Kvothe

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:21

Is there another way to compare Button & Hamilton?

In 53 races as team mates Hamilton has score 609pts, Button 603... 6pts

At the same time, if public domain information is to be believed, Hamilton has cost Mclaren/Mercedes/Vodafone $60m, Button $25m... $6m an extra point

If you were a team principal, who has given better value for money?



Well considering they were willing to pay him more money that any driver will have this year and next they've obviously looked at more than just the points.

#584 ForzaGTR

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:37

Is there another way to compare Button & Hamilton?

In 53 races as team mates Hamilton has score 609pts, Button 603... 6pts

At the same time, if public domain information is to be believed, Hamilton has cost Mclaren/Mercedes/Vodafone $60m, Button $25m... $6m an extra point

If you were a team principal, who has given better value for money?


The points difference is masked by Lewis' appauling behaviour in 2011. Truth is Jenson has never been in contention to win the WDC while at mclaren. Lewis has 2 out of 3 seasons.

Clearly Mclaren still thought Lewis was better value, hence offering him what they called the best offer in F1.

#585 ForzaGTR

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:58

:lol: One can just about sense how engineers must love a guy like that.


I doubt his engineers scrutinize his every word.

#586 Dalton007

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:00

The points difference is masked by Lewis' appauling behaviour in 2011. Truth is Jenson has never been in contention to win the WDC while at mclaren. Lewis has 2 out of 3 seasons.

Clearly Mclaren still thought Lewis was better value, hence offering him what they called the best offer in F1.


There is no doubt that Lewis is the fastest driver in F1 over one lap. No one can touch him there. Not even Fernando. Jenson should have contended this year, that early season slump with the tyres hurt him quite a bit. But a team like MAC should have sorted it out sooner.

Edited by Dalton007, 04 October 2012 - 12:01.


#587 thesham01

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:02

It should be easy to find because you included 'almost' in the sentence and thought that made it OK. You deliberately misrepresented the position which could have been very easily avoided and it simply highlights an opinion which is unshakeable or designed to inflame. I'm sure I'll be proven wrong on this but I don't see why anyone would even engage with that sort of approach in a positive way, especially considering any attempt to rework the points is not going to be received well unless it gives Hamilton a 100 point difference.


Its just that certain posters refuse to acknowledge anything but the current points total, as if that the be all and end all. I might have got strong, but that is because the ignorance of some posters is infuriating.

:rotfl: Absolute genius! That must surely be the pinacle of this parallel world thread. My hat is off to you sir/madam.


If you can prove me wrong in my assertion that he should be 60 odd extra points ahead, I will quit here forever.

Hmm, well part of the problem here is some people try to argue that because it's complex or somebody else has only covered one side of the coin, the points represent the entire story of the driving and shouldn't be adjusted at all.


Exactly.

Not at all. I probably share some of your (honest) assessment of his ability compared with Hamilton, but if I started a discussion saying that unless you agree with my point of view then you're a dipshit, are you likely to respond reasonably or not?


I never said dipshit, and would never, and the fact you said I did considerably weakens your stance. I used the word 'sane' as a common expression, one I thought (and in reality does) hold no real insult. Sanity and intelligence are completely different things. I'm also far from the only poster who gets passionate or uses hyperbole.

I don't insult other posters, but I may be blunt and to the point.

Edited by ForeverF1, 04 October 2012 - 12:06.
Removed "Button fans are very insulting to the Hamilton fans, and I would appreciate if you start reprimanding them too, even if they do hold the same opinions as you." Discussing Moderation by PM only, thanks.


#588 Lazy

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:07

I never said dipshit, and would never, and the fact you said I did considerably weakens your stance. I used the word 'sane' as a common expression, one I thought (and in reality does) hold no real insult. Sanity and intelligence are completely different things. I'm also far from the only poster who gets passionate or uses hyperbole.


Yeah, no insult in questioning someones sanity :D

#589 thesham01

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:13

Yeah, no insult in questioning someones sanity :D


Well if there was I apologise, it was a phrase I spit out a lot. To me it just means someone hasn't thought about something correctly, for various reasons.

Edited by thesham01, 04 October 2012 - 12:14.


#590 Lazy

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:19

Well if there was I apologise, it was a phrase I spit out a lot. To me it just means someone hasn't thought about something correctly, for various reasons.


Fair enough :)

As for the 60 points thing, I don't think that's provable either way tbh. Unless Lewis would be so kind as to tweet all this years telemetry for us to study of course :)

#591 BernieEc

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:21

There is no doubt that Lewis is the fastest driver in F1 over one lap. No one can touch him there. Not even Fernando. Jenson should have contended this year, that early season slump with the tyres hurt him quite a bit. But a team like MAC should have sorted it out sooner.


he is fast no doubt....but vettel fans might have a thing to say about that....

#592 fastdriver

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:24

Lewis broked Jenson gearbox too ? :smoking:

you have made me giggle... :lol:

#593 stevesingo

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:52

I doubt his engineers scrutinize his every word.


Or any word for that matter...

#594 H2H

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:58

There is no doubt that Lewis is the fastest driver in F1 over one lap. No one can touch him there. Not even Fernando. Jenson should have contended this year, that early season slump with the tyres hurt him quite a bit. But a team like MAC should have sorted it out sooner.


There is actually a lot of doubt that Lewis is the fastest driver in F1 over one lap. In general I do think that the overall points scored throughout three seasons are the best yardstick of the overall relative performance of both drivers. Lewis is overall the faster driver but Jenson was able to almost collect as many points. We will see how thinks will look like after this last season.



#595 robefc

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 13:00

There is no doubt that Lewis is the fastest driver in F1 over one lap. No one can touch him there. Not even Fernando. Jenson should have contended this year, that early season slump with the tyres hurt him quite a bit. But a team like MAC should have sorted it out sooner.


You seriously believe that?

I mean thinking lewis is the quickest driver is one thing, proclaimng there's no doubt seems a tad baseless.

#596 robefc

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 13:01

:lol: One can just about sense how engineers must love a guy like that.


Just won a bet with myself ;)

#597 robefc

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 13:03

But are they still using the same transmission package they used in 2009 and earlier?

I doubt it. They are continually changing the component designs in order to make the car quicker - lighter to get a better weight distribution, size for aerodynamics. Also 2010 was the introduction of no-refuelling, so the cars were running heavier than before.

It may be be that they have come a lot closer to that "fine line" between optimum physical characteristics vs. robustness to the point where the "idiosyncrasies" of how they drive and their approach to the car may be making a difference ("driving styles" to me is not really the correct term).

Don't get me wrong, unless the car is mis-used I don't blame the driver. And I don't blame the designers either because they are trying to make the quickest car.


Yeah, I would tend to think the gearbox isn't robust enough if a way of driving that was previously fine is suddenly a problem (although we obviously don't know if that's true in the first place).

#598 bonjon1979a

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 13:04

If you take the last 3 years the odds on lewis getting 6 failures to jenson's 1 with his driving not being a factor seem very small.

However, how many failures did he have prior to 2010? I can't remember more than one but could be wrong (pretty big one mind!). And what are the odds of a driver who apparently induces gearbox issues with his driving style having so few issues in 3 years (2007-2009)?


But this just isn't true. This year Jenson had 2 gearbox failures in Canada and the car had to be retired in Bahrain so they could change the gearbox. Add to that the change Button had to make before Suzuka and you're looking at 4 gearboxes gone for Jenson in this year alone. It's bad luck if it happens during the race but a failure is still a failure. I think that the 27 has a weak gear box, drivers have little to do with it.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 04 October 2012 - 13:07.


#599 robefc

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 13:14

But this just isn't true. This year Jenson had 2 gearbox failures in Canada and the car had to be retired in Bahrain so they could change the gearbox. Add to that the change Button had to make before Suzuka and you're looking at 4 gearboxes gone for Jenson in this year alone. It's bad luck if it happens during the race but a failure is still a failure. I think that the 27 has a weak gear box, drivers have little to do with it.


Ahem Lazy came up with the original gearbox stats, I look forward to his response :D

Edited by robefc, 04 October 2012 - 13:14.


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#600 Lazy

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 13:19

But this just isn't true. This year Jenson had 2 gearbox failures in Canada and the car had to be retired in Bahrain so they could change the gearbox. Add to that the change Button had to make before Suzuka and you're looking at 4 gearboxes gone for Jenson in this year alone. It's bad luck if it happens during the race but a failure is still a failure. I think that the 27 has a weak gear box, drivers have little to do with it.


Actually, the one gearbox problem in Canada was caused by a previous oil leak and fp gearboxes are quite often old gearboxes and not the ones used in the race.

In Bahrain they had a differential problem.