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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#751 BillBald

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 21:52

that just means that the range of his driving skills is not really that impressive....last year the regs suited him well and most other drivers learnt from his example and brought his kind of approach into this season adapting and taking it further where Button just stood still and become lost for a long period earlier in the season.


Is he still lost?



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#752 light

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 21:57

Is he still lost?

no, his qualy is still behind lewis but his race pace is similar right now.

#753 klyster

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 21:57

Lewis has already said he screwed the setup up, what's the big deal?

I'm a massive Ham fan, I don't hate button but he's not exactly my favourite driver, but to say the team or Button screwed Lewis is ridiculous.

Lewis made a change and it didn't work, deal with it, Lewis is.

Edited by klyster, 06 October 2012 - 21:58.


#754 light

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 22:06

Lewis has already said he screwed the setup up, what's the big deal?

I'm a massive Ham fan, I don't hate button but he's not exactly my favourite driver, but to say the team or Button screwed Lewis is ridiculous.

Lewis made a change and it didn't work, deal with it, Lewis is.

ive already said that i will change my stance if Lewis starts performing well again and ive already given the reasons why i think its possible a team would turn towards favouritsm after a driver leaves despite the obvious need for all the constructors points they can get.....we'll see how the next 6 races go.

#755 BillBald

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 22:09

no, his qualy is still behind lewis but his race pace is similar right now.


In 2 of the last 4 races, Jenson has been faster than Lewis in quali.



#756 klyster

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 22:16

ive already said that i will change my stance if Lewis starts performing well again and ive already given the reasons why i think its possible a team would turn towards favouritsm after a driver leaves despite the obvious need for all the constructors points they can get.....we'll see how the next 6 races go.


He will perform well again (heck, I don't know why everyone is writing off this race totally, anything can happen though unlikely), he admitted it was his change that gave him the deficit already.

Just so you know, my comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular ;)

#757 light

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 22:16

In 2 of the last 4 races, Jenson has been faster than Lewis in quali.

you are joking right? are you really trying to argue that Button has found a magic cure to the deficit in speed he has to Lewis? in spa they had opposite set-ups and today today is the first race since he signed for merc but ive already given my opinion on that matter.

#758 light

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 22:24

He will perform well again (heck, I don't know why everyone is writing off this race totally, anything can happen though unlikely), he admitted it was his change that gave him the deficit already.

Just so you know, my comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular ;)

yeah...we'll see how it goes

#759 BillBald

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 23:56

you are joking right? are you really trying to argue that Button has found a magic cure to the deficit in speed he has to Lewis? in spa they had opposite set-ups and today today is the first race since he signed for merc but ive already given my opinion on that matter.


It seems likely to me that most of the 'deficit in speed' is due to Jenson's difficulty in finding a setup which is suitable for both quali and the race. And that in turn is due to the much higher fuel load at the start of a race.

It also seems to me that there is no way that either of us can be proved right or wrong on this.



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#760 MP422

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:25

In 2 of the last 4 races, Jenson has been faster than Lewis in quali.



LOL, but over the season so far.... it's what i can't recall ?

#761 Dalton007

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:05

Good recovery from Hamilton. Button should have had third today, but the car just wasn't quick enough at the vital points in the race.

#762 light

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:09

Good recovery from Hamilton. Button should have had third today, but the car just wasn't quick enough at the vital points in the race.

yeah today was actually an amazing result for Lewis considering that he was slow as hell....who'd have thought he would cut the championship lead by 10 points before the race?
If he can get the speed back into the car for the next 5 races its totally game on for the championship.

#763 MinT

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:09

so whats the verdict ?

Hami win because...well, er..he isnt JB presumably ??

#764 light

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:11

It seems likely to me that most of the 'deficit in speed' is due to Jenson's difficulty in finding a setup which is suitable for both quali and the race. And that in turn is due to the much higher fuel load at the start of a race.

It also seems to me that there is no way that either of us can be proved right or wrong on this.

its 13-2(i think) in Lewis's favour over the season so far in qualy.

#765 Force Ten

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:11

Good recovery from Hamilton. Button should have had third today, but the car just wasn't quick enough at the vital points in the race.

...so it's a draw then, right? :)

#766 jjcale

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:12

so whats the verdict ?

Hami win because...well, er..he isnt JB presumably ??


... not really in question is it .... stop trying so hard. It stopped being funny a few pages ago.

#767 Force Ten

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:15

... not really in question is it .... stop trying so hard. It stopped being funny a few pages ago.

No it really didn't, as long as there are people that are managing to find every result to be a draw or point for Lewis, whatever the circumstances.

Edit: give as 4 days and you'll see.

Edited by Force Ten, 07 October 2012 - 09:17.


#768 jrg19

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:20

JB would have got 2nd today, both drivers didn't have good weekend for different reasons.

I would say Hamilton drove well considering his car was horrendously set up, finishing 5th when others would have gone backwards.

#769 P123

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:20

No it really didn't, as long as there are people that are managing to find every result to be a draw or point for Lewis, whatever the circumstances.

Edit: give as 4 days and you'll see.


It goes the other way from some of the JB faithful too. So much nonsense in this topic(s) with people frantically battling it out, fighting over the mythical scorecard. It's more a fanboy catfight scorecard than anything to do with the drivers...

#770 Force Ten

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:28

It's more a fanboy catfight scorecard than anything to do with the drivers...

In fact I agree. But there's a thing. I am betting a fiver that you will not find a single JB fan that is going to give every single weekend either a draw or JB win (or annulled for whatever reasons, poor balance that apparently wasn't his fault so doesn't count) over the three seasons they have been together. But you will find several Lewis fans doing just that and they are the driving force of such posts.

#771 F1FAN013

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:32

JB would have got 2nd today, both drivers didn't have good weekend for different reasons.

I would say Hamilton drove well considering his car was horrendously set up, finishing 5th when others would have gone backwards.


Yep damage limitation for Lewis. Solid drives by both drivers :up:

#772 Burtros

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:35

ive already said that i will change my stance if Lewis starts performing well again and ive already given the reasons why i think its possible a team would turn towards favouritsm after a driver leaves despite the obvious need for all the constructors points they can get.....we'll see how the next 6 races go.


So what you are saying if Lewis doesnt do well between now and the end of the season, its McLarens fault? What a complete and utter joke.

This load of utter drivel, along with the nonsense about Button in the Bridgestone era.... I dont think you actually know the first thing about F1 and how it all works. Your comments are laughable, and Im pleased to see so many people haul you up on the McLaren sabotaging Lewis crap.

Bad weekend for Macca this, its all slipping away. Vettel is on for a 3rd WDC if you ask me. Lewis may be closer to Alonso now, but thats a false dawn as hes now much further behind Vettel who has to be WDC favourite.

Jb the winner for me this weekend, but its a hollow victory IMHO. No good for Mclaren at all.

Edited by Burtros, 07 October 2012 - 09:36.


#773 velgajski1

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:43

Hamilton and his team just got wrong again people,nothing more.

If he is off the pace on korea,we can think something... but for now just Jeson and his team doing a better job,jeson is very strong here.

Stop the bs until korea and ahead.


This. After all mistakes they made in last couple of seasons is it really unbelivable that they got setup wrong? :)

#774 F1FAN013

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:47

Bad weekend for Macca this, its all slipping away. Vettel is on for a 3rd WDC if you ask me. Lewis may be closer to Alonso now, but thats a false dawn as hes now much further behind Vettel who has to be WDC favourite.

Jb the winner for me this weekend, but its a hollow victory IMHO. No good for Mclaren at all.


I'm actually optimistic about Korea for Mclaren. This championship has been unpredictable. We still have an outside chance for both championships. Keep the faith. However, Red Bull dominating in the next race will be curtains.

#775 peroa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:50

This. After all mistakes they made in last couple of seasons is it really unbelivable that they got setup wrong? :)

No, but it's the second time in 4 races where the setup was completely off, not slightly bad, we are talking 1 sec per lap off.
After Hungary I thought they will mount a serious challenge, going into the summer break on a high, but come Spa ... :rolleyes:
Cant' really remember LH having such issues before, even while driving alongside Alonso in his rookie season.

Edited by peroa, 07 October 2012 - 09:51.


#776 velgajski1

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:59

No, but it's the second time in 4 races where the setup was completely off, not slightly bad, we are talking 1 sec per lap off.
After Hungary I thought they will mount a serious challenge, going into the summer break on a high, but come Spa ... :rolleyes:
Cant' really remember LH having such issues before, even while driving alongside Alonso in his rookie season.


Unfortunately, these things happen in McLaren and I have a feeling they will happen in the future too. McLaren can be somewhat compared to Ferrari during their bad years. Still top team, still can win races, but lack that something extra you need to win titles. You can be 100% sure that McLaren wants to win WCC title even if they don't care about Lewis winning WDC title. Which also isn't the case in my opinion, and if Lewis won this title I'm sure McLaren would be delighted. Because, in the end, they have their owners, and these people want to earn money, and titles bring money.


#777 bauss

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:02

weekend goes to JB easily

I agree with the above post, McLaren seem to struggle with setup more than the top teams... even with all their supposed uber high tech approach to racing. Not conducive at all to WDC/WCC challenges.

#778 light

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:06

weekend goes to JB easily

I agree with the above post, McLaren seem to struggle with setup more than the top teams... even with all their supposed uber high tech approach to racing. Not conducive at all to WDC/WCC challenges.

is this even a debate?
JB was faster all race and finished ahead of Lewis so i dont really understand why there is any question as to who gained most points from today.

#779 Force Ten

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:44

is this even a debate?
JB was faster all race and finished ahead of Lewis so i dont really understand why there is any question as to who gained most points from today.

Wait until about... um... next Thursday and you will see a question arise.

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#780 fieraku

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:11

Haven't watched the race :evil: but I see JB ahead by 20 some secs,clear win in my book.Weekend for JB.

How did a Sauber finish ahead of both Macs? :rolleyes:

#781 stevesingo

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:19

Haven't watched the race :evil: but I see JB ahead by 20 some secs,clear win in my book.Weekend for JB.

How did a Sauber finish ahead of both Macs? :rolleyes:


Because th McLaren pit couldn't see that by keeping JB out for two extra laps after Kobi pitted was costing time!

#782 fieraku

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:27

Because th McLaren pit couldn't see that by keeping JB out for two extra laps after Kobi pitted was costing time!

Are you serious? This is a clusterf*** of a team,so much so that it should be called SNAFU McLaren Mercedes. Pfffft

Thanks for reply.

#783 BernieEc

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:28

5 more races and this thread becomes obsolete......thank God...... :)

#784 techspeed

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:49

Are you serious? This is a clusterf*** of a team,so much so that it should be called SNAFU McLaren Mercedes. Pfffft

Thanks for reply.

Just typical McLaren and their predetermined strategies. Twice brought Hamilton in when he was going faster and faster on old tyres with no sign of drop off, and then left Button out too long while Kobayashi was pulling away. Button should have either been brought in earlier, or just a little bit longer to switch to the softs.

#785 Force Ten

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:10

Just typical McLaren and their predetermined strategies. Twice brought Hamilton in when he was going faster and faster on old tyres with no sign of drop off, and then left Button out too long while Kobayashi was pulling away. Button should have either been brought in earlier, or just a little bit longer to switch to the softs.

Dunno. I give you Button's strategy at Hungary, from the recent memory. This time it feels a bit like Monday morning quarterbacking. Yeah, they could have gotten Button and Hamilton in later, in Button's case maybe, just maybe they have gotten a position or two out of it... Regarding Lewis, dunno if it would have made all that much of a difference if he had maybe finished 10 seconds further up the road. They got him past Räikkönen, didn't they? It wasn't a surefire guarantee that he could have done it coming at him after closing a 3 second gap after his second stop.

#786 inca_roads

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:28

Jenson wins this one, obviously.

Having said that, I'm fairly pleased with Lewis' drive. It was his worst weekend of the season pace-wise, but it's the only race all season he's been particularly slow, so I can live with that. And his racecraft was great, which limited the damage - early in the race I wouldn't have been too sure he was going to get fifth. Back up to speed next week, hopefully.

#787 stevesingo

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:36

Are you serious? This is a clusterf*** of a team,so much so that it should be called SNAFU McLaren Mercedes. Pfffft

Thanks for reply.


Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't have put JB ahead but he would have started the final stint 2secs behind not 4.5. As JB caught Kobi in the last 2 laps, he might have had a better shot at passing if JB had caught him 6-7 laps from the end.

Oh well.




#788 speng

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:41

Good recovery from Hamilton. Button should have had third today, but the car just wasn't quick enough at the vital points in the race.

I expected more from Button.



#789 Force Ten

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:44

I expected more from Button.

Sure. He was only a second a lap faster than Hamilton. Bring it on!

#790 thesham01

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:50

Weekend for Button obviously, was considerably faster.

Considering Hamilton was way off the pace this weekend, to gain 10 points on WDC leader is excellent. He is still in the championship fight, thank ****.

Button deserved more than 2 extra points really, but it kinda reminded me of some races in 2010 when Hamilton would be considerably faster but only finish 1 place ahead.

Edited by thesham01, 07 October 2012 - 14:50.


#791 speng

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:51

Sure. He was only a second a lap faster than Hamilton. Bring it on!

I am sure you can see that in this gp he was not racing Hamilton. A sauber and a Ferrari was ahead, he should have made the podium

#792 BillBald

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:56

its 13-2(i think) in Lewis's favour over the season so far in qualy.


Did you actually read my post?



#793 Lazy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:57

Bleh.

#794 light

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 15:02

Did you actually read my post?

well i guess my response would be that Lewis has to overcome the same balance issues for qualy/race that jenson does and the end result is 13-2 in Lewis's favour.

#795 BillBald

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 15:07

well i guess my response would be that Lewis has to overcome the same balance issues for qualy/race that jenson does and the end result is 13-2 in Lewis's favour.


But we know that the balance issue affects Jenson more.

So for you to assume that there would be the same kind of gap without the refuelling ban, which is the root cause of the balance issue, is just... (searching for a polite word).



#796 light

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 15:16

But we know that the balance issue affects Jenson more.

So for you to assume that there would be the same kind of gap without the refuelling ban, which is the root cause of the balance issue, is just... (searching for a polite word).

theres always a million variables at play and sure the scales could be tipped in jensons favour from time to time for whatever reason but from what i have seen and in my own personal view lets say they both had a perfectly set up balanced car for the last 15 races they have been in and they both performed to the best of their abilties on each occasion with zero team or driver error...i pretty much believe Lewis would win 15-0.
But this is the real world and the way it stands its 13-2 to Lewis.

#797 HopkinsonF1

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 16:29

theres always a million variables at play and sure the scales could be tipped in jensons favour from time to time for whatever reason but from what i have seen and in my own personal view lets say they both had a perfectly set up balanced car for the last 15 races they have been in and they both performed to the best of their abilties on each occasion with zero team or driver error...i pretty much believe Lewis would win 15-0.
But this is the real world and the way it stands its 13-2 to Lewis.

12-3. Germany, Spa, Suzuka for Jenson.

#798 light

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 16:52

12-3. Germany, Spa, Suzuka for Jenson.

i stand corrected.;)

#799 whitevisor

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:19

I give the race point to Hamilton. :drunk:

If Button were driving Hamilton's car he would be down in sixteenth with Caterhams and HRT's.

What Hamilton did today was above anything that Button could do.

:drunk:

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#800 PEW

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:56

I give the race point to Hamilton. :drunk:

If Button were driving Hamilton's car he would be down in sixteenth with Caterhams and HRT's.

What Hamilton did today was above anything that Button could do.

Oh absolutely :rolleyes:

But I thought they were both driving a McLaren????