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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#901 as65p

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:49

Well, Hamilton backed it up on track, JB on the other hand is full of hot air.
He can play politics all day long, it's on the track where it counts and he is losing that battle quite convincingly in a car that has been designed with his input and around him as he likes to point out.


Ask Hamilton why he leaves. Apparently there are more things that count than "on track".

Without macs monumental cockups this season we would be asking ourselves if his middle name is not perhaps Heikki.


I know that has already become folklore, but it's still just a sorry excuse. All drivers have to deal with team errors and other mishaps, I reckon you'll get a better perspective on how bad it was this season for Hamilton by about mid-2013.

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#902 light

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:48

If Button is workiing to build the mclaren team around him then where does Perez fit into this equation? Perez looks like he has similar skills to Button and quite a competitive spirit if Japan is anything to go by when he was trying to make a statement against Hamilton.....yeah he binned it the 2nd time round but with the first pass he looked very racy indeed and he's seems like quite a level headed young man so driving at a team like mclaren i can only see his skillset increasing and most probably right from the start of this new phase in his career. If equal status is given next year then Button and Perez will be taking a lot of points from each other for sure compared to Alonso who will no doubt have the team working around him again.

#903 fed up

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:57

Button working to build McLaren team around him


Interesting.

It does reveal his mindset and his approach since he joined Mclaren.

Good luck to him

#904 eronrules

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:01

If Button is workiing to build the mclaren team around him then where does Perez fit into this equation? Perez looks like he has similar skills to Button and quite a competitive spirit if Japan is anything to go by when he was trying to make a statement against Hamilton.....yeah he binned it the 2nd time round but with the first pass he looked very racy indeed and he's seems like quite a level headed young man so driving at a team like mclaren i can only see his skillset increasing and most probably right from the start of this new phase in his career. If equal status is given next year then Button and Perez will be taking a lot of points from each other for sure compared to Alonso who will no doubt have the team working around him again.



who knows, but somehow i have the feeling that Perez will out-qualify JB. can't give any proof now, but a gut feeling. who knows, we may have another 2007. now that'd be awesome.

#905 light

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:10

Interesting.

It does reveal his mindset and his approach since he joined Mclaren.

Good luck to him

i agree and it speaks volumes of his mindset doesn't it? lol
At the end of the day i like to look on the positive side of Hamilton leaving and taking on a new challenge but after reading things like this it could be argued that Lewis just made a big mistake in leaving such a great team in the hands of such a capable driver......i mean if Lewis wasn't so emotional all the time then maybe the working environment at mclaren wouldn't have been so uncomfortable for him and he could have just carried on at mclaren for the next few years business as usual....but after reading that interview from Button it kinda feels like he might be more cunning behind the scenes than we give him credit for and if thats the case then Lewis is a fool for leaving cos it sounds a little bit like he let Button get inside his head.
Whats done is done now though and i'm looking forward to seeing Button v Perez and Lewis v nico next year.

#906 bub

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:17

That no comment from JB was telling. I get the feeling Button has had a strong dislike for Hamilton for quite some time.

#907 light

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:21

who knows, but somehow i have the feeling that Perez will out-qualify JB. can't give any proof now, but a gut feeling. who knows, we may have another 2007. now that'd be awesome.

i'm certainly looking forward to seeing how they compare against each other in both qualy and race pace...i'm not sure who is the faster qualifier but i have a feeling that perez has the capacity to manage the car around the track in race pace just as well as Jenson can.

#908 fed up

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:21

i agree and it speaks volumes of his mindset doesn't it? lol
At the end of the day i like to look on the positive side of Hamilton leaving and taking on a new challenge but after reading things like this it could be argued that Lewis just made a big mistake in leaving such a great team in the hands of such a capable driver......i mean if Lewis wasn't so emotional all the time then maybe the working environment at mclaren wouldn't have been so uncomfortable for him and he could have just carried on at mclaren for the next few years business as usual....but after reading that interview from Button it kinda feels like he might be more cunning behind the scenes than we give him credit for and if thats the case then Lewis is a fool for leaving cos it sounds a little bit like he let Button get inside his head.
Whats done is done now though and i'm looking forward to seeing Button v Perez and Lewis v nico next year.


The team is the team - it is not being left in the hands of any one driver. Anyone who thinks Jenson will be able to glavinise the team around him needs to get a reality check. He doesn't have the speed to do that. Yes, he can boss a team like BAR, but Mclaren need a driver that can take the fight to Alonso and Vettel.

He has the team to himself now but he'll always know that the team valued Lewis more.

Time will tell how things pan out

#909 MP422

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:25

Well, JB's team had also Lewis' data in Canada. They just opted not to use it, and that is similar to Spa. Did Lewis and his team of engineers screw over JB then at Canada?

The data was shared. Lewis' team for whatever the reason simply opted not to use it.


No, doesn't sound reasonable at all. You cannot compare Spa to Canada. JB's issue was a deg problem not an aero disadvantage.

What is this JB's team stuff vs. Lewis' data.....

#910 light

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:32

The team is the team - it is not being left in the hands of any one driver. Anyone who thinks Jenson will be able to glavinise the team around him needs to get a reality check. He doesn't have the speed to do that. Yes, he can boss a team like BAR, but Mclaren need a driver that can take the fight to Alonso and Vettel.

He has the team to himself now but he'll always know that the team valued Lewis more.

Time will tell how things pan out

Yeah...well we certainly know that his motive is to get the team around himself cos he just admitted it.
I for one can not wait to see how that pans out next year cos if Perez is as good as most of us think he is then the intra-team battle at mclaren might end up being one of the highlights of the 2013 season.

#911 MP422

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:32

The team is the team - it is not being left in the hands of any one driver. Anyone who thinks Jenson will be able to glavinise the team around him needs to get a reality check. He doesn't have the speed to do that. Yes, he can boss a team like BAR, but Mclaren need a driver that can take the fight to Alonso and Vettel.

He has the team to himself now but he'll always know that the team valued Lewis more.

Time will tell how things pan out

Good read here. They touch on some of what your saying.

"In luring Lewis out of McLaren, Mercedes F1 have secured their own future in the sport (see below), acquired a box office spearhead to lead their assault on F1's 'big three' (one of whom they've already substantially weakened in the process of signing their new team leader), and landed a top-tier driver at the peak of his powers - according to Martin Brundle, Hamilton is already the "quickest driver in F1". And at the age of 27, his best years should still be in front of him."

http://www1.skysport...ners-And-Losers

#912 ayanate

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:34

Well, that's damn honest of JB, and true on top of it. The important bit here is



Which obviously includes Hamilton. Well, unless he's not among the "smart people in F1" JB talks about.

At McLaren, Hamilton lost the off-track, intra-team battle.

He did not lose anything, if Schumacher had committed to Merc earlier instead of dithering then Ham would have stayed at Mac and fought JB to the bitter end. I think Lewis was really surprised and disappointed with the gamemanship that Button has employed to try and get the upperhand and as a result, he has taken the option to move on.

#913 eronrules

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:38

Good read here. They touch on some of what your saying.

"In luring Lewis out of McLaren, Mercedes F1 have secured their own future in the sport (see below), acquired a box office spearhead to lead their assault on F1's 'big three' (one of whom they've already substantially weakened in the process of signing their new team leader), and landed a top-tier driver at the peak of his powers - according to Martin Brundle, Hamilton is already the "quickest driver in F1". And at the age of 27, his best years should still be in front of him."

http://www1.skysport...ners-And-Losers



i just hope it doesn't turn out to be another Rossi-Ducatti scenario. :well:

also is it me or JB, in recent races (last 2/3 months) have been trying to be the reincarnation of ''Prost the Professor"??? :stoned:

#914 light

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:40

He did not lose anything, if Schumacher had committed to Merc earlier instead of dithering then Ham would have stayed at Mac and fought JB to the bitter end. I think Lewis was really surprised and disappointed with the gamemanship that Button has employed to try and get the upperhand and as a result, he has taken the option to move on.

The point is though that he shouldn't have let anybody get inside his head in the first place...it kinda sounds like JB might have had more to do with Lewis leaving than we think.....fair play to Jenson cos this is sport at the elite level and psychological warfare is just as important as the physical aspects of competing.

#915 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:40

Perez and 2013 are both off topic for this thread. So too, to a certain extent, are the comments from Button in the interview quoted above, except where they impact on the relative performance of the drivers this season.

Please keep to the topic.

#916 ayanate

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:46

Button working to build McLaren team around him

:up:
Button's own words below;

"The impression I have is that you would get there and be very well received, but then Fernando would come in and start talking in Italian to the engineers,” said the Briton.

Button recognises that cultural/ethnic/racial biases are the biggest obstacles to overcome and anyone discounting them doesn't want to engage with the facts.


#917 zack1994

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:59

He did not lose anything, if Schumacher had committed to Merc earlier instead of dithering then Ham would have stayed at Mac and fought JB to the bitter end. I think Lewis was really surprised and disappointed with the gamemanship that Button has employed to try and get the upperhand and as a result, he has taken the option to move on.

What gamemanship? so cause jenson says he wants to build the team around him in the future, that means he has been up to no good ever since he became teammates with lewis.

#918 zack1994

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:01

:up:
Button's own words below;

"The impression I have is that you would get there and be very well received, but then Fernando would come in and start talking in Italian to the engineers,” said the Briton.

Button recognises that cultural/ethnic/racial biases are the biggest obstacles to overcome and anyone discounting them doesn't want to engage with the facts.

Has nothing to do with that, its a language barrier that he would worry about, which alonso would have a upper hand in.

#919 zack1994

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:02

i just hope it doesn't turn out to be another Rossi-Ducatti scenario. :well:

also is it me or JB, in recent races (last 2/3 months) have been trying to be the reincarnation of ''Prost the Professor"??? :stoned:

Just you

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#920 Raziel

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:02

Seems to me the JB quotes are a subtle come back for the hami Twitter comments this week.

I came and took your team from you - its what all drivers try to do, only you Lewis arent very good at it.....might be wrong but it seems a bit of a strange thing to be saying at this point without some ulterior motive to it.


:lol: Do you understand that it is now easy for Jenson to say many things, whatever he wants, when he knows that the other guy (Hamilton) will not be alongside him in that team next year? Jenson didn't take the team from him :stoned: they were both equal in the eyes of the team McLaren, in every sense, well it is true one earned more money then the other but rightfully though, but that was not an issue in this story. They were both treated as #1 drivers with equal equipment and manpower. Lewis is not leaving McLaren because of Jenson but for the other reasons. Lauda and his bull$hit stories about new challenges after big Michael Schumacher and all available possibilities for him to create big championships winning Mercedes team and to become a legend with them something Michael Schumacher has failed to do, these stories were tempting him and he is leaving McLaren mainly because of that and not because of story that he allegedly lost status within the team because of Jenson :stoned: Don't try too hard to make a story out of nothing.

#921 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:06

:lol: Do you understand that it is now easy for Jenson to say many things, whatever he wants, when he knows that the other guy (Hamilton) will not be alongside him in that team next year? Jenson didn't take the team from him :stoned: they were both equal in the eyes of the team McLaren, in every sense, well it is true one earned more money then the other but rightfully though, but that was not an issue in this story. They were both treated as #1 drivers with equal equipment and manpower. Lewis is not leaving McLaren because of Jenson but for the other reasons. Lauda and his bull$hit stories about new challenges after big Michael Schumacher and all available possibilities for him to create big championships winning Mercedes team and to become a legend with them something Michael Schumacher has failed to do, these stories were tempting him and he is leaving McLaren mainly because of that and not because of story that he allegedly lost status within the team because of Jenson :stoned: Don't try too hard to make a story out of nothing.



+1 im going to be chuckling at all the bad setup routes Macca go down next year in the search for the holy grail (jb's balance).



#922 MP422

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:13

Gotta love the divide in opinion.... the bad boy's fans say it's moving on etc. and the fans of the gentlemen say he lost his status within the team of equality....for the money...

haha love it..

#923 bauss

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:03

That no comment from JB was telling. I get the feeling Button has had a strong dislike for Hamilton for quite some time.


the same....choosing not to follow him on twitter was a lil display of that.

on the other hand, I dont think LH gave him much thought either way, he would have noticed JB never followed him.... even I did.

#924 schubacca

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:09

JB is much closer to LH than the points indicate.

JB is also more of a class act that LH.

JB does not need to like LH. He just needs to be civil to LH. LH crying like a baby because JB did not follow him on twitter is as juvenile as it gets.

I think that LH is one of the elite drivers in F1. But my money is on JB being a double world champion before LH....

#925 Kvothe

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:11

JB is much closer to LH than the points indicate.

JB is also more of a class act that LH.

JB does not need to like LH. He just needs to be civil to LH. LH crying like a baby because JB did not follow him on twitter is as juvenile as it gets.

I think that LH is one of the elite drivers in F1. But my money is on JB being a double world champion before LH....


You sir have won the award for best comedian on the BB today.

#926 f1fastestlap

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:12

You sir have won the award for best comedian on the BB today.


:lol: :up:

#927 schubacca

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:14

You sir have won the award for best comedian on the BB today.


Thank you, thank you

Are you going to follow me on twitter now? :p

#928 stevesingo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:20

Button said: “There are a lot of smart people in Formula One, which maybe is not so apparent from the outside.

“But it is a very competitive environment, and Fernando (Alonso) is one of those people.


LH not included in that comment.

“He’s been smart to build the (Ferrari) team around him, which is something we all strive for. I did it in my previous team (Honda/Brawn) and it’s happening here (McLaren) too,” said the 32-year-old.


When you look back a Rubans sulking mid 2009, it kind of makes sense.

Asked if he has taken another important step forwards with the impending departure of McLaren protege Hamilton, Button answered: “No comment.”

But he did admit: “It’s one less person in front of me.


This could mean two things, either to not frighten Perez, or to acknowledge that LH was influential in the team.


The proof will be next year of course.

#929 Kvothe

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:22

Thank you, thank you

Are you going to follow me on twitter now? :p


What's twitter?

(My repression's working)

#930 bauss

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:32

LH not included in that comment.



When you look back a Rubans sulking mid 2009, it kind of makes sense.



This could mean two things, either to not frighten Perez, or to acknowledge that LH was influential in the team.


The proof will be next year of course.


the "in front of me" almost sounds like "above me in the hierarchy" though I'm sure that is not what JB wanted to communicate.

#931 ayanate

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:34

Has nothing to do with that, its a language barrier that he would worry about, which alonso would have a upper hand in.

There doesn't have to be, most of those engineers at Ferrari speak English and so does Alonso.

#932 as65p

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:35

the "in front of me" almost sounds like "above me in the hierarchy" though I'm sure that is not what JB wanted to communicate.


No, else he would probably have said that. :) He recognizes that Hamilton is in front of him regularily, can you really turn that admission against him? Wow.

#933 zack1994

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:36

the "in front of me" almost sounds like "above me in the hierarchy" though I'm sure that is not what JB wanted to communicate.

He is talking about quali i think.

#934 as65p

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:36

There doesn't have to be, most of those engineers at Ferrari speak English and so does Alonso.


Alonso speaks english and italian, so of course there is no language barrier for him.

#935 zack1994

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:37

There doesn't have to be, most of those engineers at Ferrari speak English and so does Alonso.

Yes but alonso has the advantage of using both fluently.

#936 schubacca

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:38

JB's resume as a team builder is more complete than LH's

Once again, I rate LH very highly as a driver.

But JB spend from 2003 to 2009 at BAR/HONDA/BRAWN. That is commitment.

RB pouting or whatever, JB paid his dues to get his WDC.

I still do not understand why JB needs to laud LH?

....and I am not understanding why every thing that JB is saying is seen as a slight to LH?

#937 senna da silva

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:40

He is talking about quali i think.


....and race. :rotfl:

#938 Juggles

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:48

the same....choosing not to follow him on twitter was a lil display of that.

on the other hand, I dont think LH gave him much thought either way, he would have noticed JB never followed him.... even I did.


I agree. This is pure speculation but I get the impression Button spends a lot more time thinking about Hamilton over a race weekend than Hamilton does about Button. I don't believe Hamilton respects Button anywhere near as much as he respected Alonso when they were teammates, and still does now. If Button has disliked Hamilton for a long time as some are suggesting perhaps it stems from that: he has beaten Hamilton over a season and accumulated an almost identical quantity of points over their time as teammates but if you asked most people who they consider the better driver they wouldn't give it a second thought.

I also think Hamilton needs to have a strong race in Korea, because if the championship is no longer a possibility there is more risk of him losing focus. So many people believe Hamilton is prone to collapse when the pressure is on but I see it the opposite way; when the adrenaline of the title fight has gone he is more prone to drive in a risky way because wins become the only important thing. His collisions and overdriving in the second half of last season attest to that. It is no coincidence that Hamilton's poorest half season in relation to Button was also the most redundant in terms of the championship.

#939 Juggles

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:51

JB's resume as a team builder is more complete than LH's

Once again, I rate LH very highly as a driver.

But JB spend from 2003 to 2009 at BAR/HONDA/BRAWN. That is commitment.

RB pouting or whatever, JB paid his dues to get his WDC.

I still do not understand why JB needs to laud LH?

....and I am not understanding why every thing that JB is saying is seen as a slight to LH?


What would you call Hamilton staying at McLaren from 2007 to 2012? Fickle?

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#940 robefc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:56

Yes but alonso has the advantage of using both fluently.


Exactly, JB's point is that he couldn't be sure alonso wasn't undermining him.

I can't quite work out whether he's saying it would simply be difficult for the newcomer or whether he thinks the incumbent would undermine the newcomer.

Nor whether he's implying he would do that.

Personally I think it's happened naturally at mclaren to some extent with JB being a nice guy but also deliberately doing 'team buildy' type things but crucially I don't think he's undermined Lewis, I think Lewis has done that himself.

However, you can imagine Lewis being insecure enough to wonder whether the other guy is mocking him to the team...wonder if any of that happened at McLaren.

I have been in situations before where I felt uncomfortable because I didn't know what I was supposed to do in order to curry favour whereas others were more manipulative/political/brown nosey.

I'm not saying Button is any of those things, simply that lewis may not have thought of taking out his mechanics for dinner etc (and I imagine that's mostly JB being a nice guy rather than purely political by the way) - he might have seen button building better relationships than he has despite being the newcomer and wondered why that was (hint, don't walk around MTC with sunglasses on and phone to ear all the time and leave twitter alone...!). He may have thought it was all down to performance and that was all there was to it.

Funny choice to go to mercedes and build a team if any of the above is remotely true mind, unless he's finally realised it but needed to start afresh to put his relationship building skills into action...!


#941 ayanate

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:56

Yes but alonso has the advantage of using both fluently.

And that is what JB is insinuating, Alonso would use language which equals cultural camaraderie to ensure the team stays loyal to him first and foremost.

#942 swerved

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:58

the "in front of me" almost sounds like "above me in the hierarchy" though I'm sure that is not what JB wanted to communicate.



It does almost.

In the way that Apples, almost sounds like, Oranges.

#943 robefc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:02

I agree. This is pure speculation but I get the impression Button spends a lot more time thinking about Hamilton over a race weekend than Hamilton does about Button. I don't believe Hamilton respects Button anywhere near as much as he respected Alonso when they were teammates, and still does now. If Button has disliked Hamilton for a long time as some are suggesting perhaps it stems from that: he has beaten Hamilton over a season and accumulated an almost identical quantity of points over their time as teammates but if you asked most people who they consider the better driver they wouldn't give it a second thought.

I also think Hamilton needs to have a strong race in Korea, because if the championship is no longer a possibility there is more risk of him losing focus. So many people believe Hamilton is prone to collapse when the pressure is on but I see it the opposite way; when the adrenaline of the title fight has gone he is more prone to drive in a risky way because wins become the only important thing. His collisions and overdriving in the second half of last season attest to that. It is no coincidence that Hamilton's poorest half season in relation to Button was also the most redundant in terms of the championship.


I don't know where the idea that JB dislikes Lewis has come from.

They seem to get on fine when they need to, which is mostly PR stuff etc, and journos, when not being dismayed that they don't ho island hopping togehter between races, have noted that the chemistry between them seems warm and genuine.

I just think they're very different people and have no desire to spend time together outside of 'work'.

JB is probably more a bit bewildered by Lewis's tweet meltdowns than anything.



#944 robefc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:03

And that is what JB is insinuating, Alonso would use language which equals cultural camaraderie to ensure the team stays loyal to him first and foremost.


and how's that relevant to the two english speakers at mclaren?

#945 zack1994

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:05

And that is what JB is insinuating, Alonso would use language which equals cultural camaraderie to ensure the team stays loyal to him first and foremost.

Not racial bias though, which you mentioned.

#946 inca_roads

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:10

He may have thought it was all down to performance and that was all there was to it.


That's all there should be to it.

#947 zack1994

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:10

Exactly, JB's point is that he couldn't be sure alonso wasn't undermining him.

I can't quite work out whether he's saying it would simply be difficult for the newcomer or whether he thinks the incumbent would undermine the newcomer.

Nor whether he's implying he would do that.

Personally I think it's happened naturally at mclaren to some extent with JB being a nice guy but also deliberately doing 'team buildy' type things but crucially I don't think he's undermined Lewis, I think Lewis has done that himself.

However, you can imagine Lewis being insecure enough to wonder whether the other guy is mocking him to the team...wonder if any of that happened at McLaren.

I have been in situations before where I felt uncomfortable because I didn't know what I was supposed to do in order to curry favour whereas others were more manipulative/political/brown nosey.

I'm not saying Button is any of those things, simply that lewis may not have thought of taking out his mechanics for dinner etc (and I imagine that's mostly JB being a nice guy rather than purely political by the way) - he might have seen button building better relationships than he has despite being the newcomer and wondered why that was (hint, don't walk around MTC with sunglasses on and phone to ear all the time and leave twitter alone...!). He may have thought it was all down to performance and that was all there was to it.

Funny choice to go to mercedes and build a team if any of the above is remotely true mind, unless he's finally realised it but needed to start afresh to put his relationship building skills into action...!

Yeah thats quite possible, when you take into account the way lewis i wear my heart on my sleeve hamilton is.

#948 Force Ten

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:45

What would you call Hamilton staying at McLaren from 2007 to 2012? Fickle?

It has been by far one of the best teams for that whole period. Something that Honda definitely weren't.

#949 schubacca

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:01

What would you call Hamilton staying at McLaren from 2007 to 2012? Fickle?


Are you seriously comparing a premier outfit like Mclaren to BAR/HONDA?

The cars that LH has enjoyed thus far in his career cannot be compared to the mediocrity that JB drove.

JB stuck it out. That is commitment.

#950 ayanate

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:02

It has been by far one of the best teams for that whole period. Something that Honda definitely weren't.

It is not like Button was spoilt for choice at BAR/Honda, as far as I remember he was damaged goods after the Williams fiasco.