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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#51 fieraku

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:09

About the pace,well it seems that Lewis was in total control of it.


Pit to Lewis: “The gap to Jenson is good, you can back off now.”
“Let me know when I can back off.”
Pit to Lewis: “We now need to push for a couple of laps.”

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#52 Lights

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:11

I'm not sure lewis's pace on worn ssofts at the end of the first stint is that relevant to be honest. Particularly as it was quicker than vettel's so he actually did pull a gap before vettel pitted.

The point about tyre management is that I think Lewis was far more worried about managing the tyres than trying to pull a gap on vettel, your post implied that he would want to create a buffer if he could.

I think it's very relevant. Lewis can't smell if Vettel has traffic or not, you know you're on your last laps and need to get everything out of the tyre, it's ridiculous to suggest a driver would 'cruise around' right before a planned pit stop, that's never a smart thing to do, especially as you never know if a pit stop goes as planned, and that on a track where overtaking is not possible if that position is lost. It's still McLaren we're talking about. To be fair I'm surprised you're defending this, or I must be missing something huge.

#53 Lights

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:13

Lewis didn't say which lap but he did say he first lost that gear thingie first then 3rd gear.

Doesn't really say anything then, can be 1 lap before as well.

#54 speng

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:14

Hamilton was short shifting for several laps, yet still could keep ~1.5sec infront of Vettel.

We NEVER know the true pace of a leader but I think under normal circumstances we'd only accept to believe that the leader is maintaining the gap when there's 4-6seconds to play with, such as early Monza.

1.5sec is too fine on a track with over 20 opportunities to drop half a second per lap, so either Lewis was struggling to meet pit window or the gearbox was showing signs of failure several laps before it actually popped.

that is correct, Hamilton was managing the race from very early on.

#55 swerved

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:20

Great job from Jenson, good to see him on the podium again, and within 23 points of Lewis.

Great episode of "Tooned" as well, very topical :D

#56 fieraku

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:32

Doesn't really say anything then, can be 1 lap before as well.

It didn't sound like it,if you hear Whitmarsh's interview it sounded the problems started way earlier,also Vettel said he saw Lewis losing oil 3-4 laps prior to his retirement.

#57 fred54

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:33

MW openly said on the BBC forum that LH is now the team leader and wants him to get as many as 150 points available as he believes he as a better chance as Button is further behind and they are running out of races.

Edited by fred54, 23 September 2012 - 15:34.


#58 Lights

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:35

It didn't sound like it,if you hear Whitmarsh's interview it sounded the problems started way earlier,also Vettel said he saw Lewis losing oil 3-4 laps prior to his retirement.

'Sounded like', in who's imagination? Again, doesn't say anything. And if it happened 3-4 laps prior to it, it still doesn't do anything to my original point you replied to.

#59 robefc

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:37

I think it's very relevant. Lewis can't smell if Vettel has traffic or not, you know you're on your last laps and need to get everything out of the tyre, it's ridiculous to suggest a driver would 'cruise around' right before a planned pit stop, that's never a smart thing to do, especially as you never know if a pit stop goes as planned, and that on a track where overtaking is not possible if that position is lost. It's still McLaren we're talking about. To be fair I'm surprised you're defending this, or I must be missing something huge.


I think we might be talking at cross purposes.

I was replying specifically to your point about not building a buffer if you can (Lewis to vettel).

I think both vettel and Lewis were cruising relative to their ultimate pace after the first pit stops, presumably going as quickly as they dared whilst worried about the tyres.

I think Lewis was much more concerned about tyre life than building a gap to vettel, this season seems to be the epitome of winning by going as slowly as you can (pretty sure I'm mis quoting and not even sure who it was that said it!).

End of the super soft stint and Lewis did pull a bit of a gap as vettel's tyres gave up quicker, obviously Lewis was struggling in his last 2 laps, still not sure he was pushing as hard as he could because I think they wanted that stint to be longer, although hard to think he would be keeping anything in reserve with his times dropping.

None of the above is related to button's pace.

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#60 Lights

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:46

I think we might be talking at cross purposes.

I was replying specifically to your point about not building a buffer if you can (Lewis to vettel).

I think both vettel and Lewis were cruising relative to their ultimate pace after the first pit stops, presumably going as quickly as they dared whilst worried about the tyres.

I think Lewis was much more concerned about tyre life than building a gap to vettel, this season seems to be the epitome of winning by going as slowly as you can (pretty sure I'm mis quoting and not even sure who it was that said it!).

End of the super soft stint and Lewis did pull a bit of a gap as vettel's tyres gave up quicker, obviously Lewis was struggling in his last 2 laps, still not sure he was pushing as hard as he could because I think they wanted that stint to be longer, although hard to think he would be keeping anything in reserve with his times dropping.

None of the above is related to button's pace.

Well my original post was related to Button's pace. In fact, it literally said that his race pace was up there (with Lewis'). Which of course was cursing in the church, because it didn't take long for a reply that it just seemed that Button's pace was good because Lewis was cruising around. Which I objected to. And then got in this discussion that makes no sense.

On the last part, I still don't see why Lewis wouldn't push while knowing Vettel just put new tyres on. Mainly because there's no reason to risk losing the lead with a slightly lower pit stop or anything. You just go for it and get the last grip from the tyres. Vettel was his only real challenger at that point so trying to go longer wouldn't be smart in a situation where all you have to do is simply cover that challenger.

The rest I agree on anyway. Of course they weren't going full out, but neither was Jenson obviously. They're all trying to get the most speed out of their tyres over a particular stint. And as we saw, Jenson managed his supersofts pretty well, but in the end that didn't pay off at all because of the safety cars.

Edited by Lights, 23 September 2012 - 15:47.


#61 robefc

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:52

Well my original post was related to Button's pace. In fact, it literally said that his race pace was up there (with Lewis'). Which of course was cursing in the church, because it didn't take long for a reply that it just seemed that Button's pace was good because Lewis was cruising around. Which I objected to. And then got in this discussion that makes no sense.


I know, hence my edit :)

EDIT - don't have an issue with your original post btw, which the poster you replied to was replying too so I may have interrupted a conversation.


Well my original post was related to Button's pace. In fact, it literally said that his race pace was up there (with Lewis'). Which of course was cursing in the church, because it didn't take long for a reply that it just seemed that Button's pace was good because Lewis was cruising around. Which I objected to. And then got in this discussion that makes no sense.

On the last part, I still don't see why Lewis wouldn't push while knowing Vettel just put new tyres on. Mainly because there's no reason to risk losing the lead with a slightly lower pit stop or anything. You just go for it and get the last grip from the tyres. Vettel was his only real challenger at that point so trying to go longer wouldn't be smart in a situation where all you have to do is simply cover that challenger.

The rest I agree on anyway. Of course they weren't going full out, but neither was Jenson obviously. They're all trying to get the most speed out of their tyres over a particular stint. And as we saw, Jenson managed his supersofts pretty well, but in the end that didn't pay off at all because of the safety cars.


It seemed to me that macca pitted lewis early because of his complaints about the right rear, he was actually covering vettel because he was stuck, then vettel did a purple S1 and I think lewis pitted that lap.

Anyhow, it's the rest that was my main point and we seemed to be in agreement, I stuck my oar in at the wrong time clearly! :D

#62 ZooL

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:55

This was such a heavy deg track that I think Lewis has learnt he didn't need to win this by more than a second and kept Vettel out of the DRS zone. Even attempting building a 3 sec buffer would have damaged the tyres too much because they were supposed to go off under 10 laps.

Infact Vettel was pushing too hard and damaged his tyres first. Hamilton pitted 2 whole laps later and still had him covered, with the following stints giving him 2 lap fresher tyres to boot.

Talking about race pace at this track was pointless because it was so slow compared to pole time (10 secs off). Track position was king here. Lewis lead the same way in Hungary - where he shown he had lap time in reserve if it needed to be called upon. He never did need to call it.

Edited by ZooL, 23 September 2012 - 15:57.


#63 mlsnoopy

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 15:59

Thank you Martin for helping me beat Lewis.
Jenson.


#64 Lights

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:10

I know, hence my edit :)

It seemed to me that macca pitted lewis early because of his complaints about the right rear, he was actually covering vettel because he was stuck, then vettel did a purple S1 and I think lewis pitted that lap.

Anyhow, it's the rest that was my main point and we seemed to be in agreement, I stuck my oar in at the wrong time clearly! :D

Yes, it's clearer now. :)

And for once McLaren took the right strategic measurements to get both drivers out in clear air, not making hasty decisions in the process. It was also good that they let Jenson try to run a bit longer seeing that Maldonado was in traffic as well. And the same with Vettel and Lewis. It's just that the drivers don't really have a good view of this in the cockpit, hence usually they will try to maximize whatever pace they have left.

#65 garoidb

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:11

Great job from Jenson, good to see him on the podium again, and within 23 points of Lewis.


Lewis (and McLaren) will need to make sure that gap increases at the next race. If Lewis has more problems and (a) Jenson gets closer and (b) Vettel and Alonso get further away, then it will be every man for himself.


#66 dave12

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:46

Thank you Martin for helping me beat Lewis.
Jenson.

:drunk:

#67 dave12

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:53

Bad luck for Lewis but these things happen, on the whole i would give the weekend to Lewis.

Jenson's pace seemed good but not a match for Lewis, worryingly Jenson's tire deg seemed to be a lot higher then Lewis' to :confused:

#68 tkulla

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:10

Bad luck for Lewis but these things happen, on the whole i would give the weekend to Lewis.

Jenson's pace seemed good but not a match for Lewis, worryingly Jenson's tire deg seemed to be a lot higher then Lewis' to :confused:


Not according to the live timing I was watching. Lewis was much quicker for the first 5 laps or so and from then on Jenson was superior and managed to stay out much longer. The safety car periods cancelled out Jenson's advantage though, to Vettel's benefit (which would have also been a boon for Lewis had not DNF'd). Jenson may have been able to try a longer second stint and could have even gambled on another set of SuperSofts for the last stint had the safety car not happened.



#69 moorsey

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:12

This was such a heavy deg track that I think Lewis has learnt he didn't need to win this by more than a second and kept Vettel out of the DRS zone. Even attempting building a 3 sec buffer would have damaged the tyres too much because they were supposed to go off under 10 laps.

Infact Vettel was pushing too hard and damaged his tyres first. Hamilton pitted 2 whole laps later and still had him covered, with the following stints giving him 2 lap fresher tyres to boot.

Talking about race pace at this track was pointless because it was so slow compared to pole time (10 secs off). Track position was king here. Lewis lead the same way in Hungary - where he shown he had lap time in reserve if it needed to be called upon. He never did need to call it.


Exactly and to pull a large gap simply gives the car behind some Lear air to drive in. Much better to keep just over 1 second, to avoid DRS, and also leave a bit of turbulence for the following car whilst also looking after the tyres.
That's sensible racing.


#70 hammibal

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:16

Sorecard:-

Lewis 28 - 14 Jenson

#71 Kvothe

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:16

It was clearly obvious that Lewis was cruising to save the soft tyre in the second stint, Vettel would close and than would stop at about 1.2 seconds when the gap would open again.

Unlucky for Lewis again.

Well done to JB for finishing second.

#72 dave12

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:26

Not according to the live timing I was watching. Lewis was much quicker for the first 5 laps or so and from then on Jenson was superior and managed to stay out much longer. The safety car periods cancelled out Jenson's advantage though, to Vettel's benefit (which would have also been a boon for Lewis had not DNF'd). Jenson may have been able to try a longer second stint and could have even gambled on another set of SuperSofts for the last stint had the safety car not happened.

On the first stint i would agree but on the soft tires Jenson seemed to eat them a lot faster then Seb didn't really get to see how things panned out with Lewis because of the dnf but on the whole Jenson didn't seem imo to have the handle on the soft tires.

#73 tkulla

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 17:31

On the first stint i would agree but on the soft tires Jenson seemed to eat them a lot faster then Seb didn't really get to see how things panned out with Lewis because of the dnf but on the whole Jenson didn't seem imo to have the handle on the soft tires.


That's the way it appeared in the final stint, but that could have to do with pushing Vettel straight away since neither had a tyre "freshness" advantage at that point.

Do we know how Jenson's tyres looked when they were pulled off the car during the safety car pitstop?



#74 techspeed

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:13

Well at least all the bickering over getting Button to back Hamilton and digs about Button doing everything to stop Hamilton winning the championship should stop now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19692701

Although no doubt even though this has been made public there will no doubt be some who have already decided this is just to hide their secret intentions. :drunk: :lol:


#75 techspeed

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:21

Not according to the live timing I was watching. Lewis was much quicker for the first 5 laps or so and from then on Jenson was superior and managed to stay out much longer. The safety car periods cancelled out Jenson's advantage though, to Vettel's benefit (which would have also been a boon for Lewis had not DNF'd). Jenson may have been able to try a longer second stint and could have even gambled on another set of SuperSofts for the last stint had the safety car not happened.

:up:
It did look like the plan was for both McLarens to run longer than Vettel, so benefiting with less time on each set of softs and avoiding the drop off Button seemed to have nearer the end. Without a safety car it would have been interesting at the end with Button having 9-10 laps fresher tyres than Vettel meaning they could have been on for a good one-two.

The only downside is what would have happened if Hamilton hadn't broken down. It looked like Vettel had started pulling away easily from Button before it looked like Button had backed off, we don't know whether that would have meant Vettel would have been able to catch and overtake Hamilton. although even a two-three would have been a better result than what they got.

#76 Dalton007

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:21

Well at least all the bickering over getting Button to back Hamilton and digs about Button doing everything to stop Hamilton winning the championship should stop now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19692701

Although no doubt even though this has been made public there will no doubt be some who have already decided this is just to hide their secret intentions. :drunk: :lol:


Nice one, Jenson. :up:

#77 fieraku

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:24

Well at least all the bickering over getting Button to back Hamilton and digs about Button doing everything to stop Hamilton winning the championship should stop now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19692701

Although no doubt even though this has been made public there will no doubt be some who have already decided this is just to hide their secret intentions. :drunk: :lol:

Yes,he can take out FA&SV at turn one the next race.




#78 dave12

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:25

That's the way it appeared in the final stint, but that could have to do with pushing Vettel straight away since neither had a tyre "freshness" advantage at that point.

Do we know how Jenson's tyres looked when they were pulled off the car during the safety car pitstop?


Jenson seemed to like the S soft tires but not so much the soft's

During the first stint, I even thought I had a chance of winning because I was able to go longer than the cars around me. But then they didn't seem to struggle much on the harder tyre, so the advantage swung away from me. I had a good second stint, but the harder tyre didn't feel quite as good for me [as the softer tyre]. Then I didn't really have good balance in the final 10 laps. Jenson said



#79 robefc

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:35

Well at least all the bickering over getting Button to back Hamilton and digs about Button doing everything to stop Hamilton winning the championship should stop now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19692701

Although no doubt even though this has been made public there will no doubt be some who have already decided this is just to hide their secret intentions. :drunk: :lol:


I interpret that as JB volunteering to take Lewis out if he doesn't sign on the dotted line...:p

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#80 Lazy

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:38

I interpret that as JB volunteering to take Lewis out if he doesn't sign on the dotted line...:p


:D


#81 PEW

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 18:41

I interpret that as JB volunteering to take Lewis out if he doesn't sign on the dotted line...:p

Good post robefc- some folks don't really understand the point of a BB but you do.

#82 F1Newbie

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 19:01

Well at least all the bickering over getting Button to back Hamilton and digs about Button doing everything to stop Hamilton winning the championship should stop now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19692701

Although no doubt even though this has been made public there will no doubt be some who have already decided this is just to hide their secret intentions. :drunk: :lol:


Sure, Jenson went to talk about Team Order with Martin and of course they still don't have any plan B, yep!

#83 speng

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 22:41

Not according to the live timing I was watching. Lewis was much quicker for the first 5 laps or so and from then on Jenson was superior and managed to stay out much longer. The safety car periods cancelled out Jenson's advantage though, to Vettel's benefit (which would have also been a boon for Lewis had not DNF'd). Jenson may have been able to try a longer second stint and could have even gambled on another set of SuperSofts for the last stint had the safety car not happened.

Hamilton told reporters. "It was gutting when the car stopped, I was cruising.
"I was managing the gap and could have pushed more, I had the pace. I think today would have been an easy win
.


#84 zack1994

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 22:44

Hamilton told reporters. "It was gutting when the car stopped, I was cruising.
"I was managing the gap and could have pushed more, I had the pace. I think today would have been an easy win
.

im sure jenson and vettel could say the same

#85 speng

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 22:48

im sure jenson and vettel could say the same

Yes but only Hamilton was leading the race and had the pole by Almost a half second

Edited by speng, 23 September 2012 - 22:59.


#86 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 22:49

im sure jenson and vettel could say the same


Eh, the subtle difference being that Hamilton was ahead of them both.

#87 speng

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 22:51

Eh, the subtle difference being that Hamilton was ahead of them both.

Not hard figure that one out right

#88 SerratedEdge

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 22:56

Well at least all the bickering over getting Button to back Hamilton and digs about Button doing everything to stop Hamilton winning the championship should stop now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19692701

Although no doubt even though this has been made public there will no doubt be some who have already decided this is just to hide their secret intentions. :drunk: :lol:



This is just a ruse to lure Hamilton into a new long term McLaren contract.....when Hamilton has signed a new deal next season the Whitmarsh/Button plan to scupper Hamilton at every oportuinity will kick in again :drunk: :drunk:

#89 zack1994

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 23:15

Yes but only Hamilton was leading the race and had the pole by Almost a half second

qualipace isnt the same as race pace

#90 micktosin

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 23:22

qualipace isnt the same as race pace

I don't understand the logic in your post, when it was obviously clear Lewis was cruising, by maintaining 5 sec gap to Button. Button had no chance of catching either Lewis or Vettel today, as we can see toward the end of the race, when Vettel pulled out a huge lead within few laps.

#91 speng

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 23:25

qualipace isnt the same as race pace

:lol: :lol: you do not get it I see, anyway I will end it here. Thank you.

#92 tkulla

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 23:34

I don't understand the logic in your post, when it was obviously clear Lewis was cruising, by maintaining 5 sec gap to Button. Button had no chance of catching either Lewis or Vettel today, as we can see toward the end of the race, when Vettel pulled out a huge lead within few laps.


Kind of a jerk move for Lewis to claim he would have won "easy" considering Seb's pace late in the race. I'm not often critical of things drivers say, especially when they are disappointed, but Lewis should know that there's no such thing as an "easy" GP win at a street race that goes the full two hours in the heat. Not a big deal really but it's the kind of thing that makes me like him less.




#93 P123

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 23:40

Kind of a jerk move for Lewis to claim he would have won "easy" considering Seb's pace late in the race. I'm not often critical of things drivers say, especially when they are disappointed, but Lewis should know that there's no such thing as an "easy" GP win at a street race that goes the full two hours in the heat. Not a big deal really but it's the kind of thing that makes me like him less.


At least you half recognise your complaint is a 'jerk move'.

#94 micktosin

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 23:45

Kind of a jerk move for Lewis to claim he would have won "easy" considering Seb's pace late in the race. I'm not often critical of things drivers say, especially when they are disappointed, but Lewis should know that there's no such thing as an "easy" GP win at a street race that goes the full two hours in the heat. Not a big deal really but it's the kind of thing that makes me like him less.

I don't think Lewis meant it, in an arrogant kind of way. Besides, Alonso also made similar statement last race, when he claimed he could have got pole easy. I think it is understandable in those situations.

#95 Kvothe

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 23:46

Kind of a jerk move for Lewis to claim he would have won "easy" considering Seb's pace late in the race. I'm not often critical of things drivers say, especially when they are disappointed, but Lewis should know that there's no such thing as an "easy" GP win at a street race that goes the full two hours in the heat. Not a big deal really but it's the kind of thing that makes me like him less.


Why?

I'm sure Lewis knowing the pace he was going at, and being in the garage amongst all the information from the rest of the race is probably has more knowledge and is thus in a better position to say so.

I didn't hear any complaint when Alonso said the exact same thing about pole position in Monza.

#96 tkulla

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 00:00

Why?

I'm sure Lewis knowing the pace he was going at, and being in the garage amongst all the information from the rest of the race is probably has more knowledge and is thus in a better position to say so.

I didn't hear any complaint when Alonso said the exact same thing about pole position in Monza.


A bit different. A qualifying lap has relatively few variables compared to 2/3 of a race. And I still didn't like it (shoulda, coulda, woulda - and he should have taken some responsibility for only doing one real one). As for today's race, from what I could see there was no evidence of it being "easy" at all. He would have been my first pick for the win had he not had a problem, but he also could have been undercut at the pitstops by Vettel (had they occurred under green) or had more degradation at the end of his stints. In other words, not easy.


#97 hammibal

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 00:19

im sure jenson and vettel could say the same



qualipace isnt the same as race pace

What pace did Jenson have to beat Vettel?

Kind of a jerk move for Lewis to claim he would have won "easy" considering Seb's pace late in the race. I'm not often critical of things drivers say, especially when they are disappointed, but Lewis should know that there's no such thing as an "easy" GP win at a street race that goes the full two hours in the heat. Not a big deal really but it's the kind of thing that makes me like him less.

You know more about the pace of Lewis's car than Lewis himself?

#98 speng

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 00:23

Kind of a jerk move for Lewis to claim he would have won "easy" considering Seb's pace late in the race. I'm not often critical of things drivers say, especially when they are disappointed, but Lewis should know that there's no such thing as an "easy" GP win at a street race that goes the full two hours in the heat. Not a big deal really but it's the kind of thing that makes me like him less.

So you are basically saying from your arm chair you are better able to judge if it would have been an easy win, really now. :lol: :lol:

#99 as65p

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:08

So you are basically saying from your arm chair you are better able to judge if it would have been an easy win, really now. :lol: :lol:


If a driver never opens a gap more than two seconds over his pursuers it's quite easy to call BS upon any claims of easiness.

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#100 slmk

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:10

If a driver never opens a gap more than two seconds over his pursuers it's quite easy to call BS upon any claims of easiness.


You do know that as long as you are outside of the DRS zone, you are 'managing' the gap?