Jump to content


Photo

Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3870 replies to this topic

#951 f1fastestlap

f1fastestlap
  • Member

  • 1,951 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:07

Are you seriously comparing a premier outfit like Mclaren to BAR/HONDA?

The cars that LH has enjoyed thus far in his career cannot be compared to the mediocrity that JB drove.

JB stuck it out. That is commitment.


More like nowhere else to go...

Advertisement

#952 ayanate

ayanate
  • Member

  • 159 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:07

Not racial bias though, which you mentioned.

Of course that was related to my point, people use whatever they can to gain loyalty and that could be culture, language, race, class etc.

Even though Lewis and Jenson are both Englishmen, Lewis is more different culturally to Button than Button is to Alonso in my opinion.

#953 fed up

fed up
  • Member

  • 1,979 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:12

Of course that was related to my point, people use whatever they can to gain loyalty and that could be culture, language, race, class etc.

Even though Lewis and Jenson are both Englishmen, Lewis is more different culturally to Button than Button is to Alonso in my opinion.


I really don't understand why you are forcing your biased views on us.

Lewis has been there from the age of 13, Jenson 2 years.

If you are inferring that the team prefer JB to LH just because he is white, you are way off and out of line for forcing this opinion on the forum.

No matter how nice a guy Jenson is, the way he acted with Williams and Brawn - in terms of loyalty, will not be lost on them. Lewis gave them his formative years, so I'd argue there is more of an emotional connection there.

#954 schubacca

schubacca
  • Member

  • 799 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:12

More like nowhere else to go...


He could have quit.....

He did not.

JB deserves some credit.

Only Schumacher has shown that this level of commitment to a team.

Not LH, who stepped into a race-winning car.

Not FA, who moved to Macca, then blackmailed them.

Not SV, who has enjoyed Newey-designed cars for most of his career.

Give JB some credit please.

#955 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,502 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:17

I agree. This is pure speculation but I get the impression Button spends a lot more time thinking about Hamilton over a race weekend than Hamilton does about Button. I don't believe Hamilton respects Button anywhere near as much as he respected Alonso when they were teammates, and still does now. If Button has disliked Hamilton for a long time as some are suggesting perhaps it stems from that: he has beaten Hamilton over a season and accumulated an almost identical quantity of points over their time as teammates but if you asked most people who they consider the better driver they wouldn't give it a second thought.

I also think Hamilton needs to have a strong race in Korea, because if the championship is no longer a possibility there is more risk of him losing focus. So many people believe Hamilton is prone to collapse when the pressure is on but I see it the opposite way; when the adrenaline of the title fight has gone he is more prone to drive in a risky way because wins become the only important thing. His collisions and overdriving in the second half of last season attest to that. It is no coincidence that Hamilton's poorest half season in relation to Button was also the most redundant in terms of the championship.


I agree with all of what you have said.

Especially the second paragraph, that whole second half of 2011 is something alot of people overlook for obvious reasons.

Edited by thesham01, 10 October 2012 - 15:20.


#956 senna da silva

senna da silva
  • Member

  • 4,448 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:21

He could have quit.....

He did not.

JB deserves some credit.

Only Schumacher has shown that this level of commitment to a team.

Not LH, who stepped into a race-winning car.

Not FA, who moved to Macca, then blackmailed them.

Not SV, who has enjoyed Newey-designed cars for most of his career.

Give JB some credit please.



He had a signed contract with Wiliams only for him to back out of it as soon as something better came along.
At the end of 2008 he had no where to go, with Honda pulling out he was looking, no one wanted him. After he won the championship in 2009 he left.

Button has zero loyalty to anyone except for himself.

#957 sailor

sailor
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:23

Well, that's damn honest of JB, and true on top of it. The important bit here is



Which obviously includes Hamilton. Well, unless he's not among the "smart people in F1" JB talks about.

At McLaren, Hamilton lost the off-track, intra-team battle.


Thats a nice way to put it.

Jense may be honest but has definitely put the rumors to rest and it woul dnot be wrong to speculate that he had a hand in Lewis departure. Button fans who always made light of the dastardliness of their hero will have a tough time explaining that one.


#958 fed up

fed up
  • Member

  • 1,979 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:25

He had a signed contract with Wiliams only for him to back out of it as soon as something better came along.
At the end of 2008 he had no where to go, with Honda pulling out he was looking, no one wanted him. After he won the championship in 2009 he left.

Button has zero loyalty to anyone except for himself.


This..

#959 SunnyENTP

SunnyENTP
  • Member

  • 717 posts
  • Joined: August 12

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:30

Are you seriously comparing a premier outfit like Mclaren to BAR/HONDA?

The cars that LH has enjoyed thus far in his career cannot be compared to the mediocrity that JB drove.

JB stuck it out. That is commitment.



Or no one wanted him?

Advertisement

#960 topical

topical
  • Member

  • 2,295 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:30

Yes but alonso has the advantage of using both fluently.


Does Jenson think that Alonso was born with the ability to speak 3 languages well? Has he ever heard of making an effort and actually learning another language himself? Heck, even Lewis managed a few words of Italian on the podium at Monza, I'm pretty sure Schumacher learned it too.

#961 schubacca

schubacca
  • Member

  • 799 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:34

He had a signed contract with Wiliams only for him to back out of it as soon as something better came along.
At the end of 2008 he had no where to go, with Honda pulling out he was looking, no one wanted him. After he won the championship in 2009 he left.

Button has zero loyalty to anyone except for himself.


We know about JB's missteps.

He himself has acknowledged his mistakes.

However.....

He has matured into a team leader.

This is evidenced at BAR/HONDA.

Regarding this fiction that he had no where else to go: I don't think that we are privy to his options. The fact that he was still in F1 showed that he was needed.



#962 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,502 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:38

http://www.f1zone.ne...-mclaren/16132/

I'm posting it here as it says a lot about (certain sections of) the paddocks view on Button.

#963 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,615 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:40

http://www.f1zone.ne...-mclaren/16132/

I'm posting it here as it says a lot about (certain sections of) the paddocks view on Button.


What? Like Horner's statement at the beginning of the season that Jenson was their main threat?

#964 senna da silva

senna da silva
  • Member

  • 4,448 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:46

Regarding this fiction that he had no where else to go: I don't think that we are privy to his options. The fact that he was still in F1 showed that he was needed.


There were no options at the end of 2008, there were interviews where Button stated this and said that if Brawn hadn't successfully rescued the team he wouldn't have been in F1 for '09.

In fact Button took a huge pay cut for 2009.

Brawn GP 2009

#965 rileyl

rileyl
  • Member

  • 461 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:48

http://www.f1zone.ne...-mclaren/16132/

I'm posting it here as it says a lot about (certain sections of) the paddocks view on Button.


Dr. Marko is telling the truth! Mclaren would not win a title with Button unless they have by far the best car all year!

#966 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,784 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:14

Dr. Marko is telling the truth! Mclaren would not win a title with Button unless they have by far the best car all year!


When Marko speaks, I often suspect many possible motivations, but a simple desire to tell the truth is not one of them.

Edited by BillBald, 10 October 2012 - 16:15.


#967 schubacca

schubacca
  • Member

  • 799 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:24

Dr. Marko is telling the truth! Mclaren would not win a title with Button unless they have by far the best car all year!



Red Bull does not win the title with Vetttel unless they have the best car.

Marko is not exactly objective, is he?


#968 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 3,150 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:45

Or no one wanted him?

Flavio Briatore might be a no-one now but hardly then.

#969 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 3,150 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:46

http://www.f1zone.ne...-mclaren/16132/

I'm posting it here as it says a lot about (certain sections of) the paddocks view on Button.

You know you are doing good when the other side drags Helmut Marko out to support her argument.

#970 stevesingo

stevesingo
  • Member

  • 121 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:00

Being a F1 driver key skills

Being able to drive

Being physically fit

Being analytical with data

Having mechanical/technical knowledge

Being a multiple WDC key skills

All of the above PLUS

Being able to focus a team effort

Influencing people

Leadership

Motivate a team.

All of the WDC key skills are skills that are not unique to F1, but are skills that are gained by experience.

JB is putting his experience in these skills to good use in order to get what he believes is the correct support for his bid to be a multiple WDC. Whether he does this remains to be seen.

What LH has failed to do is just that. It seems LH doesn't feel he is being supported at McLaren, despite the substantial offer on the table. But as these things are, the top end management wanted to keep LH, but LH maybe felt some indifference to his presence in the mid ranks of the team. These swings in loyalty are sometimes subconscious and the team members probably didn't sense the shift themselves initially, but people are drawn to good leadership.

LH probably feels his position at the team in untenable due to this subtle shift in the mid-lower ranks.

LH has lost this one and staying with the team was never going to turn it around, because there is nothing more cringeworthy than an inexperienced leader trying to be a good leader.

Fear not Lewis fanboys, all is not lost. This social schooling will have made Lewis stronger and he now needs to go to Mercedes and impress his personality on Mercedes. It will be easier there as he will come into the team as his own man, not the boy he came to McLaren as, and still remains on some eyes.

It is up to Lewis to get his head together, look at his mistakes from the past 3yrs and don't do the same again.

The fanboys should lay off putting JB down, and bad mouthing the man. He is doing what Lewis should have done but didn't.

If lewis manages to do it at Mercedes, will Lewis fanboys be painting Lewis as some kind of Dick Dastardly figure, or some kind of great leader?







#971 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,871 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:01

Jenson Button thread -> http://forums.autosp...howtopic=128523

Please take comments about Jenson's Williams contract wrangles and 2009 etc there please.

This thread is for the purposes of assessing the relative driving performance of the McLaren team mates during 2012.

#972 Viktoria

Viktoria
  • Member

  • 87 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:08

The best thing on this Jenson vs. Lewis thread... only 5 races and its done!! :clap: :wave:

Edited by Viktoria, 10 October 2012 - 17:09.


#973 swerved

swerved
  • Member

  • 3,689 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:14

http://www.f1zone.ne...-mclaren/16132/

I'm posting it here as it says a lot about (certain sections of) the paddocks view on Button.



Strangely, I only saw a quote from helmut, would you care to enlighten us as to how his view represents certain sections of the paddock ?

#974 ElDictatore

ElDictatore
  • Member

  • 924 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:14

http://www.f1zone.ne...-mclaren/16132/

I'm posting it here as it says a lot about (certain sections of) the paddocks view on Button.


Cause Marko is such an objective and differentiated source :lol:
I find it funny that so much base the theories as facts. We do not know how it looks like at the inside of a team at all and i don't think we can get the whole picture through medias. So unless one driver comes out and says "this happend" and the others involved confirm that, we have to take everything with a mountain of salt!

#975 Fox1

Fox1
  • Member

  • 643 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:52

Being a F1 driver key skills

Being able to drive

Being physically fit

Being analytical with data

Having mechanical/technical knowledge

Being a multiple WDC key skills

All of the above PLUS

Being able to focus a team effort

Influencing people

Leadership

Motivate a team.

All of the WDC key skills are skills that are not unique to F1, but are skills that are gained by experience.

JB is putting his experience in these skills to good use in order to get what he believes is the correct support for his bid to be a multiple WDC. Whether he does this remains to be seen.

What LH has failed to do is just that. It seems LH doesn't feel he is being supported at McLaren, despite the substantial offer on the table. But as these things are, the top end management wanted to keep LH, but LH maybe felt some indifference to his presence in the mid ranks of the team. These swings in loyalty are sometimes subconscious and the team members probably didn't sense the shift themselves initially, but people are drawn to good leadership.

LH probably feels his position at the team in untenable due to this subtle shift in the mid-lower ranks.

LH has lost this one and staying with the team was never going to turn it around, because there is nothing more cringeworthy than an inexperienced leader trying to be a good leader.

Fear not Lewis fanboys, all is not lost. This social schooling will have made Lewis stronger and he now needs to go to Mercedes and impress his personality on Mercedes. It will be easier there as he will come into the team as his own man, not the boy he came to McLaren as, and still remains on some eyes.

It is up to Lewis to get his head together, look at his mistakes from the past 3yrs and don't do the same again.

The fanboys should lay off putting JB down, and bad mouthing the man. He is doing what Lewis should have done but didn't.

If lewis manages to do it at Mercedes, will Lewis fanboys be painting Lewis as some kind of Dick Dastardly figure, or some kind of great leader?


Ironic.

So lost was Button after being lapped by Hamilton in Canada that McLaren decided the only course of action was to get the two sides of engineers together.

“I went to the factory last week (and) I saw all the top engineers together on one table,” Hamilton told reporters at Valencia.

“They had all of my data out, lap by lap, noting all the things I did differently to Jenson to try to understand things. So he has absolutely every detail of what I’m doing differently.

“So I’m sure we’ll see a difference this weekend,” he said.

It was hard to tell if the 2008 world champion was proud he was finally back on top of his highly-rated teammate, or piqued that his speedy secrets were the subject of internal espionage.

Pointed out that Button sounds more confident now, Hamilton answered quickly: “I’m sure he does.

“There’s been a lot of work that’s gone on with his car.”


I remember this being an issue for Alonso when he was with McLaren. That was an inexperienced teammate who was already running at Alonso's pace. Jenson, who according to some, is the "real" leader at McLaren, was heading for a 2009 part2 collapse and McLaren were not going to let that happen.

Jenson was embarrassed this season; the only thing that saved him and the team was having Lewis as a benchmark. How ironic is that?


#976 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,715 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:11

He did not lose anything, if Schumacher had committed to Merc earlier instead of dithering then Ham would have stayed at Mac and fought JB to the bitter end.


It's true that he would have had no options in case MS had signed early enough. Or only worse options.

I think Lewis was really surprised and disappointed with the gamemanship that Button has employed to try and get the upperhand and as a result, he has taken the option to move on.


Interesting theory. You should hope Rosberg lives up to Hamiltons expectations as a teammate, else he might be gone before Ross Brawn even has a chance to apply teamorders.

#977 MinT

MinT
  • Member

  • 2,087 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:25

http://www.f1zone.ne...-mclaren/16132/

I'm posting it here as it says a lot about (certain sections of) the paddocks view on Button.


Looking at the source - its a bit of a joke post isnt it ?


#978 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,231 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:56

Cause Marko is such an objective and differentiated source :lol:
I find it funny that so much base the theories as facts. We do not know how it looks like at the inside of a team at all and i don't think we can get the whole picture through medias. So unless one driver comes out and says "this happend" and the others involved confirm that, we have to take everything with a mountain of salt!



i think not only Marco, but many others are also feeling joyous on this transfer saga(LDM+FA :smoking: ). Lewis is practically written off (unless miracolously Merc produce a title winning car), and i'm not convinced yet that JB can qualify the car with the aggression that Lewis did. Perez is a unknown quantity. so if Ferrari can produce a good baseline car next season, i think next season will be straight battle between Ferrari and RBR with Lotus Merc and Macca playing the second tier.(provide ferrari produces a blindingly quick car off course)

#979 stevesingo

stevesingo
  • Member

  • 121 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:04

Ironic.


I think the true irony is that a Lewis fan uses this quote to try to prove some kind of point that Lewis is the team leader, where in fact it demonstrates the point I, and others are trying to make about Lewis' lack of social skills in that is that Lewis chose to speak to the press about internal team business and this is one of the reasons as to how he has lost influence in the team.

I remember this being an issue for Alonso when he was with McLaren. That was an inexperienced teammate who was already running at Alonso's pace. Jenson, who according to some, is the "real" leader at McLaren, was heading for a 2009 part2 collapse and McLaren were not going to let that happen.


Would you expect McLaren to do the same for Lewis is similar circumstances? Would you expect Lewis to have all of Jensen's data? What about at Mercedes? Would you expect Lewis to have access to Nico's data.

Jenson was embarrassed this season; the only thing that saved him and the team was having Lewis as a benchmark. How ironic is that?


Jensen definitely had a poor performance period when he couldn't get a grip of his set up. Slightly embarrassing for sure. But what is more embarrassing is that Lewis chose to try to big himself up in the press by bragging that the team were using LH date to solve a JB issue. That caused JB more embarrassment than was required and exposed LH as an insecure individual. At the time, the comment didn't seem so significant, but now it is just one of the instances of Lewis being socially immature.

I am by no means digging in to Lewis unfairly as it his not his fault. He was gifted a dream start in F1 after being tightly managed throughout the lower formulae and never had the opportunity to develop such skills.



Advertisement

#980 Fox1

Fox1
  • Member

  • 643 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 10 October 2012 - 23:21

I think the true irony is that a Lewis fan uses this quote to try to prove some kind of point that Lewis is the team leader, where in fact it demonstrates the point I, and others are trying to make about Lewis' lack of social skills in that is that Lewis chose to speak to the press about internal team business and this is one of the reasons as to how he has lost influence in the team.



Would you expect McLaren to do the same for Lewis is similar circumstances? Would you expect Lewis to have all of Jensen's data? What about at Mercedes? Would you expect Lewis to have access to Nico's data.



Jensen definitely had a poor performance period when he couldn't get a grip of his set up. Slightly embarrassing for sure. But what is more embarrassing is that Lewis chose to try to big himself up in the press by bragging that the team were using LH date to solve a JB issue. That caused JB more embarrassment than was required and exposed LH as an insecure individual. At the time, the comment didn't seem so significant, but now it is just one of the instances of Lewis being socially immature.

I am by no means digging in to Lewis unfairly as it his not his fault. He was gifted a dream start in F1 after being tightly managed throughout the lower formulae and never had the opportunity to develop such skills.

The frustrating thing is that McLaren seem to be lost at sea and sometimes run arse backwards compared to other teams. In no other team would the slower driver have so much clout. During Jenson's "issues" McLaren appeared stagnant in the development race. After all, how can Jenson catch up if the chassis' performance baseline is constantly changing? Lewis openly complained about the lack of upgrades several times but no one really paid attention because he was still running at the front. McLaren were the only team opting not to send fulltime drivers to Mugello; a move Lewis questioned while Jenson ironically agreed with. All of the top teams improved after the "useless" Mugello test...especially Ferrari. If it was any other team, Lewis would have been at the test even if the other driver couldn't test because of a sponsor commitment. I truly believe McLaren lost the better driver, but I am coming to the realization that Lewis would never have won another championship with McLaren under the current circumstances. It's very sad to see Lewis leave just as he's entering his prime, but I can’t fault his decision. I think it will prove to be a wise decision on Lewis' part.

BTW, he was "gifted" the McLaren seat to start his F1 career because he was gifted with the talent to earn it.


#981 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,640 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 10 October 2012 - 23:54

The frustrating thing is that McLaren seem to be lost at sea and sometimes run arse backwards compared to other teams. In no other team would the slower driver have so much clout. During Jenson's "issues" McLaren appeared stagnant in the development race. After all, how can Jenson catch up if the chassis' performance baseline is constantly changing? Lewis openly complained about the lack of upgrades several times but no one really paid attention because he was still running at the front. McLaren were the only team opting not to send fulltime drivers to Mugello; a move Lewis questioned while Jenson ironically agreed with. All of the top teams improved after the "useless" Mugello test...especially Ferrari. If it was any other team, Lewis would have been at the test even if the other driver couldn't test because of a sponsor commitment. I truly believe McLaren lost the better driver, but I am coming to the realization that Lewis would never have won another championship with McLaren under the current circumstances. It's very sad to see Lewis leave just as he's entering his prime, but I can’t fault his decision. I think it will prove to be a wise decision on Lewis' part.

BTW, he was "gifted" the McLaren seat to start his F1 career because he was gifted with the talent to earn it.


He did? Can you provide some links?


#982 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 9,350 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 11 October 2012 - 00:23

He did? Can you provide some links?

Clatter, I don't have any links unfortunately but I do recall Lewis making a couple of statements about not having upgrades while other teams had. Whether to view those statements as an honest answer to a question or a complain or perhaps both is another thing however.

#983 whitevisor

whitevisor
  • Member

  • 267 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:44

The other teams won't fear mclaren anymore once Hamilton is gone. No pole threats, no shove it up the insides, not crash or win wheel banging (see Japan GP 2012 Vs Kimi), no hard ass defending, no Twittering of Telemetry.

Yup.. there will be rejoicing come January 2013. Mclaren is weakened folks; like Sparta losing Leonidas.

#984 stevesingo

stevesingo
  • Member

  • 121 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:09

The frustrating thing is that McLaren seem to be lost at sea and sometimes run arse backwards compared to other teams. In no other team would the slower driver have so much clout.


Can you prove the respective clout's worth of both drivers? I don't see anything to suggest such a statement.

The slower driver by what 2-3 10ths in qualifying. But despite being slower, more of less matches the faster team mate for points earned. You are just bitter about something. McLaren knows the value of having TWO drivers performing.

During Jenson's "issues" McLaren appeared stagnant in the development race. After all, how can Jenson catch up if the chassis' performance baseline is constantly changing? Lewis openly complained about the lack of upgrades several times but no one really paid attention because he was still running at the front. McLaren were the only team opting not to send fulltime drivers to Mugello; a move Lewis questioned while Jenson ironically agreed with. All of the top teams improved after the "useless" Mugello test...especially Ferrari. If it was any other team, Lewis would have been at the test even if the other driver couldn't test because of a sponsor commitment. I truly believe McLaren lost the better driver, but I am coming to the realization that Lewis would never have won another championship with McLaren under the current circumstances. It's very sad to see Lewis leave just as he's entering his prime, but I can’t fault his decision. I think it will prove to be a wise decision on Lewis' part.


Mugello was a mistake that is for sure. Buttons issues with set up were avoidable, so don't shoulder all the blame on Button for not resolving it sooner.

To suggest the development was delayed is groundless. Lewis was complaining, so what! Development plans are put in place long before implementation. Just look at the start of the season where the car run in the tests is changed completely from by the time we hit the first race. Do you think these changes are a response to the car performance at the first test or as part of a plan based on wind tunnel data, CFD and simulator work done in the weeks prior to the first test, the results of which take time to analyse whereupon development paths are explored, developed tested in wind tunnel, CFD and simulator and produced.

What was key about the McLaren this year was the developments worked first time.

BTW, he was "gifted" the McLaren seat to start his F1 career because he was gifted with the talent to earn it.


He has the talent, I have not made an issue with that...

Being a F1 driver key skills

Being able to drive

Being physically fit

Being analytical with data

Having mechanical/technical knowledge

Being a multiple WDC key skills

All of the above PLUS

Being able to focus a team effort

Influencing people

Leadership

Motivate a team.


It is the bottom half of the list where I believe he is lacking in comparison with JB. As usual, a LH fan can only reply with "Yeah but, no but he is faster"!



#985 ayanate

ayanate
  • Member

  • 159 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:10

It's true that he would have had no options in case MS had signed early enough. Or only worse options.



Interesting theory. You should hope Rosberg lives up to Hamiltons expectations as a teammate, else he might be gone before Ross Brawn even has a chance to apply teamorders.

Oh Hamilton would be more circumspect in his relationship with Rosberg, that I'm sure of. He is emphasising parity to Merc because he backs himself to come out on top. But after half a season of demolishing his teammate, it is inevitable that the teammate will look for other ways, sometimes sly, sometimes even devious to get back on level terms or gain the ascendancy. Hamilton needs to anticipate this and manage it better than he has at Mclaren. The root of the problem in my view is that he just did not put Button in that category and I think some of JB's fans are surprised as well at this other hidden side of JB as some of the intra-team wranglings are seeping out.

#986 stevesingo

stevesingo
  • Member

  • 121 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:52

Being a F1 driver key skills

Being able to drive

Being physically fit

Being analytical with data

Having mechanical/technical knowledge

Being a multiple WDC key skills

All of the above PLUS

Being able to focus a team effort

Influencing people

Leadership

Motivate a team.

All of the WDC key skills are skills that are not unique to F1, but are skills that are gained by experience.

JB is putting his experience in these skills to good use in order to get what he believes is the correct support for his bid to be a multiple WDC. Whether he does this remains to be seen.

What LH has failed to do is just that. It seems LH doesn't feel he is being supported at McLaren, despite the substantial offer on the table. But as these things are, the top end management wanted to keep LH, but LH maybe felt some indifference to his presence in the mid ranks of the team. These swings in loyalty are sometimes subconscious and the team members probably didn't sense the shift themselves initially, but people are drawn to good leadership.

LH probably feels his position at the team in untenable due to this subtle shift in the mid-lower ranks.

LH has lost this one and staying with the team was never going to turn it around, because there is nothing more cringeworthy than an inexperienced leader trying to be a good leader.

Fear not Lewis fanboys, all is not lost. This social schooling will have made Lewis stronger and he now needs to go to Mercedes and impress his personality on Mercedes. It will be easier there as he will come into the team as his own man, not the boy he came to McLaren as, and still remains on some eyes.

It is up to Lewis to get his head together, look at his mistakes from the past 3yrs and don't do the same again.

The fanboys should lay off putting JB down, and bad mouthing the man. He is doing what Lewis should have done but didn't.

If lewis manages to do it at Mercedes, will Lewis fanboys be painting Lewis as some kind of Dick Dastardly figure, or some kind of great leader?



Oh Hamilton would be more circumspect in his relationship with Rosberg, that I'm sure of. He is emphasising parity to Merc because he backs himself to come out on top. But after half a season of demolishing his teammate, it is inevitable that the teammate will look for other ways, sometimes sly, sometimes even devious to get back on level terms or gain the ascendancy. Hamilton needs to anticipate this and manage it better than he has at Mclaren. The root of the problem in my view is that he just did not put Button in that category and I think some of JB's fans are surprised as well at this other hidden side of JB as some of the intra-team wranglings are seeping out.


I believe you are suggesting that JB was underhand and sly in some way? Can you provide evidence of that? It may seem that way to Lewis and some of his less open minded fans, but it is Lewis' own inability to manage his relationship with the team has lead him leave.

He will be more socially astute this time around, but leadership is not something that can be learnt in it's entirety, some of it is natural and can never be learnt.

The point I tried to make earlier is that Lewis is socially naive and I attribute this to his tightly managed career and somewhat privileged ascendancy to F1. Awaiting some idiot say it wasn't privileged in any way :rolleyes:

As for demolishing, in the first 10 races LH finished ahead of JB 6-4 or 92-68 points. Not quite a demolition.

Please see the bolded above. This will probably come back to haunt a few fans.

Edited by stevesingo, 11 October 2012 - 07:54.


#987 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,715 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:36

Oh Hamilton would be more circumspect in his relationship with Rosberg, that I'm sure of. He is emphasising parity to Merc because he backs himself to come out on top. But after half a season of demolishing his teammate, it is inevitable that the teammate will look for other ways, sometimes sly, sometimes even devious to get back on level terms or gain the ascendancy. Hamilton needs to anticipate this and manage it better than he has at Mclaren. The root of the problem in my view is that he just did not put Button in that category and I think some of JB's fans are surprised as well at this other hidden side of JB as some of the intra-team wranglings are seeping out.


It's very improbable Hamilton is as naive as you paint him. How can a driver who raced all his life and won the F1 WDC not anticipate that there is more to the game than a heavy right foot, or that his teammate will try to beat him by any means possible? That's laughable. All the more so because we have lot's of indications to Hamiltons own "other side", for just one example the lately here quoted statement to the press how hard the McLaren engineers tried to solve Buttons car problems, even using data from his, Hamiltons, car. That was solely aimed at putting Button in his place and giving him a good kick while he was down. The PR-cleaned translation of it is simply 'poor sucker has to look at my data to learn how to drive properly, har-har'.

That stuff plus a lot more like building personal relationships in a team etc. is all part of the game and has been forever. If Hamilton feels Button has gained an off-track advantage in the team, than he had two choices: work harder and try to overcome it, or move elsewhere, which is what he did.

Edited by as65p, 11 October 2012 - 08:36.


#988 swerved

swerved
  • Member

  • 3,689 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:55

lol @ Buxtons tweet.

"Jenson when asked if he'd dance Gangnam as Rosberg said he would. "Not now you've told me that. I don't want to be a follower." Wink wink."

#989 mlsnoopy

mlsnoopy
  • Member

  • 2,356 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:58

So Hamilton actually had mechanical problem in Japan. Another race, where the team is responsible for the bad performance.

#990 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 3,150 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:25

So Hamilton actually had mechanical problem in Japan. Another race, where the team is responsible for the bad performance.

...so it in fact was a tie in the scorecard, right?

#991 PARAZAR

PARAZAR
  • Member

  • 1,194 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:30

And Lewis reply to the same question:

Will Buxton‏@willbuxton
To be fair to Lewis, when he was asked if he'd be Gangnam style dancing in Korea he said, "I think I've embarrased myself enough this week." :p



#992 ayanate

ayanate
  • Member

  • 159 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:43

I believe you are suggesting that JB was underhand and sly in some way? Can you provide evidence of that? It may seem that way to Lewis and some of his less open minded fans, but it is Lewis' own inability to manage his relationship with the team has lead him leave.

He will be more socially astute this time around, but leadership is not something that can be learnt in it's entirety, some of it is natural and can never be learnt.

The point I tried to make earlier is that Lewis is socially naive and I attribute this to his tightly managed career and somewhat privileged ascendancy to F1. Awaiting some idiot say it wasn't privileged in any way :rolleyes:

As for demolishing, in the first 10 races LH finished ahead of JB 6-4 or 92-68 points. Not quite a demolition.
Please see the bolded above. This will probably come back to haunt a few fans.

Looking at the points tally is pretty stupid knowing what happened in many of the early races this season. Hamilton was 9-0 in qualifying until the rain-soaked British GP where Button got fresh tyres in Q3 and Ham did not, or else it would have been a big fat 10-0. There was a clear trend established that Hamilton was getting far more out of the car than JB could manage, at that point it is clear JB needed to change tact.

As for JB being sly, I'm not going to bother trying to prove that to you, because I know you would choose to interprete LH's twitter outburst differently. My interpretation was LH was frustrated with some underhanded tactics from the other side if the garage.

#993 ayanate

ayanate
  • Member

  • 159 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:47

It's very improbable Hamilton is as naive as you paint him. How can a driver who raced all his life and won the F1 WDC not anticipate that there is more to the game than a heavy right foot, or that his teammate will try to beat him by any means possible? That's laughable. All the more so because we have lot's of indications to Hamiltons own "other side", for just one example the lately here quoted statement to the press how hard the McLaren engineers tried to solve Buttons car problems, even using data from his, Hamiltons, car. That was solely aimed at putting Button in his place and giving him a good kick while he was down. The PR-cleaned translation of it is simply 'poor sucker has to look at my data to learn how to drive properly, har-har'.

That stuff plus a lot more like building personal relationships in a team etc. is all part of the game and has been forever. If Hamilton feels Button has gained an off-track advantage in the team, than he had two choices: work harder and try to overcome it, or move elsewhere, which is what he did.

No one is saying Lewis or Jenson have to be saints, what Lewis was doing there was totally out of order and in hindsight he would cringe at his tactlessness to the media. What really came across when he said that for me was; "I'm here to make the car go faster and the team is holding me back worrying about my weaker teammate"

#994 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,715 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:21

No one is saying Lewis or Jenson have to be saints, what Lewis was doing there was totally out of order and in hindsight he would cringe at his tactlessness to the media. What really came across when he said that for me was; "I'm here to make the car go faster and the team is holding me back worrying about my weaker teammate"


:up: to the bolded.

As to the rest, there has been no real-world confirmation as far I'm aware that McLaren as a team, or Hamilton specifically, suffered in any shape or form from solving Buttons issues. IOW it is completely made up by certain fans, very much like the conspiracy theories about an ongoing internal feud with Whitmarsh.

#995 stevesingo

stevesingo
  • Member

  • 121 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:08

Looking at the points tally is pretty stupid knowing what happened in many of the early races this season. Hamilton was 9-0 in qualifying until the rain-soaked British GP where Button got fresh tyres in Q3 and Ham did not, or else it would have been a big fat 10-0. There was a clear trend established that Hamilton was getting far more out of the car than JB could manage, at that point it is clear JB needed to change tact.


It is the points that win prizes. It is quite possible that a driver might compromise single lap pace for race pace. I am not disputing that Lewis is by and large faster, but what does he do with it?

As for JB being sly, I'm not going to bother trying to prove that to you

, Because you can't, as I can't prove to you that Lewis had similar meetings with engineering discussing Jensen's telemetry. But it is probable that during post race debriefs, all the info is poured over to help both drives beat the other teams. That is in fact more likely than this being a one off incident of JB getting Lewis' data.

because I know you would choose to interpret LH's twitter outburst differently. My interpretation was LH was frustrated with some underhanded tactics from the other side if the garage.

See above. This is common practice, the sharing of information. Lewis will know this. I'm afraid it is you that is misinterpreting the situation. Lewis tweeted this, a snap shot of activity at the MTC. You chose to interpret it as it was an all out effort to dig JB out of a hole. It could have been a routine debrief, and therefore Lewis' comments are no more than a clumsy dig at his team mate.

No one is saying Lewis or Jenson have to be saints, what Lewis was doing there was totally out of order and in hindsight he would cringe at his tactlessness to the media. What really came across when he said that for me was; "I'm here to make the car go faster and the team is holding me back worrying about my weaker teammate"


There is no proof that McLaren were holding back development because of JB's set up issues.

But you seem to be taking issue with minor points in the peripheries of the key point I raised. Lewis is not as socially astute, nor has he the experience developed leadership of Jensen. His conduct on twitter is a symptom of this.

#996 Fox1

Fox1
  • Member

  • 643 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:42

It is the points that win prizes. It is quite possible that a driver might compromise single lap pace for race pace. I am not disputing that Lewis is by and large faster, but what does he do with it?

You don't find it strange that JB is not seen on Lewis' performance level this year yet they are fairly close on points? Think about it and tell me where you think the failure is? I'll wait....

Edited by Fox1, 11 October 2012 - 13:53.


#997 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,518 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:01

Being a F1 driver key skills

Being able to drive

Being physically fit

Being analytical with data

Having mechanical/technical knowledge

Being a multiple WDC key skills

All of the above PLUS

Being able to focus a team effort

Influencing people

Leadership

Motivate a team.



It is the bottom half of the list where I believe he is lacking in comparison with JB. As usual, a LH fan can only reply with "Yeah but, no but he is faster"!


What you believe and what is the case are not necessarily the same. I don't see much to back these claims, it's just conjecture but anyway:

Being able to focus a team effort - I think a championship winning team should be able to focus themselves. Isn't that what they have managers, team principles etc for? Regardless, I don't think there's much proof that Lewis is lacking in this ability compared to Jenson.

Influencing people - You can only influence people if they allow themselves to be influenced. Regardless, I don't think there's much proof that Lewis is lacking in this ability compared to Jenson.

Leadership - You can only lead people if they allow themselves to be lead. I think it's probably easier to lead a team if you enter the team as an established WDC. Regardless, I don't think there's much proof that Lewis is lacking in this ability compared to Jenson.

Motivate a team - I think a championship winning team should be able to motivate themselves. Isn't that what they have managers,team principles etc for? Regardless, I don't think there's much proof that Lewis is lacking in this ability compared to Jenson.

I don't agree that there are any extra key skills required to be a multiple WDC. If you win one, you can win more. All you have to do is retain the skills you used to win the first one.
Hamiltons alleged lack of social maturity isn't hurting him much because in the team mate battle with extra mature Button he's ahead. Yeah but no but Lewis is faster and an overall better driver. Statistically Lewis must be ahead and based on opinions most knowledgeable, impartial people would rate Hamilton as a top 3 F1 driver and Jenson wouldn't be one of the other 2.





#998 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,091 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:29

It is the points that win prizes. It is quite possible that a driver might compromise single lap pace for race pace. I am not disputing that Lewis is by and large faster, but what does he do with it?


Well by and large this year he's maximised the potential of the car with it...obviously the same can't be said of the team unfortunately (nor Jenson this year).

Edited by robefc, 11 October 2012 - 15:48.


#999 inca_roads

inca_roads
  • Member

  • 1,446 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:31

It is the points that win prizes. It is quite possible that a driver might compromise single lap pace for race pace. I am not disputing that Lewis is by and large faster, but what does he do with it?


In order for Jenson to come out on top after qualifying behind, he's usually either got to be quicker in the race, or make less mistakes. Overall this season, he's done neither.

Hamilton has been forced out of 4 of the last 8 races. It's hard to win any prizes when you can only obtain half the points available. Alonso has had a 50% retirement rate in the last 4 races too - look what's happened to his points advantage,

Edited by inca_roads, 11 October 2012 - 15:33.


Advertisement

#1000 stevesingo

stevesingo
  • Member

  • 121 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:50

I really give up!

In trying to have some kind of constructive debate as to why LH chose to leave McLaren, instead of stamping his authority on his clearly inferior team mate, all the LH fanboys can do is yeah but no but he is faster.

bub, I do agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't believe is as clear cut as that. People do gravitate to other people, due to charisma, leadership ect ect and subconsciously allow themselves to be led. Social interaction within a team is not as black and white as you make out.

You may want to believe that LH social skills are fine because "he is ahead", but he is not the one leaving. All I am trying to do is stimulate reasoned debate as to why he felt that to be necessary?