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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#1151 Force Ten

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:44

He needs to run longer than the cars in front of him, in the first stint.

Maybe he can do that on SS, but more likely on Softs.

Yeah, this year we have often seen Webber do a super aggressive super short first stint and the only thing it has usually yielded him is sending him back to 17th, some exiting racing for position wasting the better part of the tyres in those battles, then needing to pit again, do the same all over again and then after a huge effort come 10th or 9th finally. Doesn't seem that smart and Webber is an aggressive driver. Button... not so much.

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#1152 Rinehart

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:52

[quote name='whitevisor' date='Oct 13 2012, 15:50' post='5971833']
I bet there is still going to be Lewis VS Jenson thread next year....
[/

Only if Mclaren build a poor car....

#1153 Rinehart

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:59

Confident of a strong race for Mclaren tmrw. Hamilton can put a turkey 2010 on the red bulls and its been a while since button has started way back in a car he has front running pace in.

#1154 robefc

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 22:00


I bet there is still going to be Lewis VS Jenson thread next year....


Only if Mclaren build a poor car....


Or merc build a rocket ship (if I keep saying it might come true :D )

#1155 Rinehart

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 22:11

Mark Hughes has said at Suzuka Hamilton had a broken rear damper all weekend that McLaren did not spot. Does that count in the scorecard?

Anyway another weekend ruined by a technical failure on the car, where's Kvothe and the sig...


If you we're a Button fan you'd be calling this weekend void due to the tweet and the yellow flag!

#1156 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 22:24

No mate, what's important for our opinions is what we know. If we find out more I'll update my opinion accordingly. Meanwhile Jenson's known words say he felt Lewis owed him an apology and the apology was positive. Partial acceptance. Then he says it's SUCH a big deal he's amazed they're actually sitting together :eek: .

This is a long way from something gracious in which he fully accepted the apology for something trivial that was a just careless mistake and not in fact disrespectful.

On the excuse thing, I don't especially dislike Jense, he's about mid-grid for me on the likes stakes, but this is an example of his weaker side and why I've never really taken to him.

Not that it's a big deal but, you know, people keep arguing about it.

Happy to oblige.

Asked why he had not simply called Button first to check whether the story was true, Hamilton said: “Hindsight is a lovely thing. I tried as hard as I could to get hold of Jenson [after the incident] but I think he had a night out so I couldn’t get hold of him. So I sent a message, he replied and accepted it. The first thing I did here was to go and apologise. Now my focus is on the weekend.”

As I said, what went on between them is important. What they tell you about it, not so much.

#1157 as65p

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 22:29

Only if Mclaren build a poor car....


Not even then, or by any other F1 related circumstance. Versus threads are only allowed here in the forum between teammates, IIRC.

#1158 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 22:31

:up:

#1159 Kvothe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 22:32

Not even then, or by any other F1 related circumstance. Versus threads are only allowed here in the forum between teammates, IIRC.


Well I'm sure someone will create a "Are McLaren regretting letting Lewis go" thread soon enough.
That should cover it.

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#1160 undersquare

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 22:33

Happy to oblige.

As I said, what went on between them is important. What they tell you about it, not so much.

Fair enough, thanks. I hereby change my mind. That is all good and I am pleased. Jense you were not a tosser dude, my bad.

Tho I am going to point out that what went on between them IS what we know about it, as far as our consciousness is concerned.

#1161 BillBald

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 23:50

Well I'm sure someone will create a "Are McLaren regretting letting Lewis go" thread soon enough.
That should cover it.


I'm sure the mods would see through that.

Well, they will now. :)



#1162 Kvothe

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:01

I'm sure the mods would see through that.

Well, they will now. :)


http://tvtropes.org/...n/XANAtosGambit

:)

#1163 kosmos

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:11

Hamilton bowled out by Button

:confused:

#1164 Boxerevo

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:45

This weekened was so bad that lets live on peace people,nothing to add,compare or count,just sad sad.

#1165 WitnessX

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:47

Hamilton bowled out by Button

:confused:

Button bowled out by Kobayashi

Posted Image

"I was fighting for position," Kobayashi insisted. "Unfortunately when braking it was difficult to react, someone hit my car and I couldn't control [it].

Wot?

Edited by WitnessX, 14 October 2012 - 08:52.


#1166 P123

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:50

Button bowled out by Kobayashi

Posted Image


Hmmmm, Kamui hit by someone else??? He'll probably find he was playing pinball off the Merc and McLaren!

#1167 skid solo

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:00

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103423

Button criticises Perez.. Guess that means he will stop following him on twitter.

#1168 MinT

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:19

Hamilton bowled out by Button

:confused:


That is a non- story.

Buttons charity event was already arranged - so half the tream were double booked once Hami decided on the night out - but no doubt it will be spun as some huge disrespect by JB/McLaren etc :rolleyes:

#1169 f1fastestlap

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:20

That is a non- story.

Buttons charity event was already arranged - so half the tream were double booked once Hami decided on the night out - but no doubt it will be spun as some huge disrespect by JB/McLaren etc :rolleyes:

The disrespect comes from not telling him about it...

Edited by f1fastestlap, 14 October 2012 - 09:39.


#1170 jrg19

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:20

Point to Lewis... literally.

#1171 Sinceref189

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:28

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103423

Button criticises Perez.. Guess that means he will stop following him on twitter.

:rotfl:

#1172 amppatel

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:09

Thank GOD for KK! If he had not hit JB then he would have finished near the podium and beaten Hamilton - and he defiantly doesn't deserve that for the way he is driving (all season)! That's what I call preemptive karma! :clap:

#1173 Dalton007

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:01

Thank GOD for KK! If he had not hit JB then he would have finished near the podium and beaten Hamilton - and he defiantly doesn't deserve that for the way he is driving (all season)! That's what I call preemptive karma! :clap:


Huh?

Very sad post.

I enjoyed Lewis's drive today. :up:

#1174 thesham01

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:13

Another piece of bad luck for Hamilton this year, and it's 3 mechanical failures in a row now. It's just sickening really.

Button also unlucky. Of course I'm expecting Rhinehart to post how it was Buttons fault; if you qualify poorly, this is what happens. Isn't that right?

Who cares who gets the race point between them, it's so tainted at this stage anyway.



#1175 Sinceref189

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:35

Another piece of bad luck for Hamilton this year, and it's 3 mechanical failures in a row now. It's just sickening really.

Button also unlucky. Of course I'm expecting Rhinehart to post how it was Buttons fault; if you qualify poorly, this is what happens. Isn't that right?

Who cares who gets the race point between them, it's so tainted at this stage anyway.


It is really shocking i think its embarrissing to a point where i burst out laughing , I haven't laughed so much before including the comments on here, too many jokers around today , those guys really cheered me up over that incompetant display nby Mclaren, Lewis on the otherhand drove a great race displaying once again why he as one of the best (if not the best) racecraft plus having to deal with that anti-roll bar problem while fighting with everyone just remind's me of the Lewis the balls in your mouth racer he is.

Edited by MightyMoose, 15 October 2012 - 11:48.
LOL rinehart will turn it around on Hamilton guaranteed :p that man can't help himself sometimes but anyway on to mclaren.<- Enough of the personal stuff


#1176 speng

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 13:59

it is really shocking i think its embarrissing to a point where i burst out laughing , I haven't laughed so much before including the comments on here, too many jokers around today , those guys really cheered me up over that incompetant display nby Mclaren, Lewis on the otherhand drove a great race displaying once again why he as one of the best (if not the best) racecraft plus having to deal with that anti-roll bar problem while fighting with everyone just remind's me of the Lewis the balls in your mouth racer he is.

Totally agree.

Edited by MightyMoose, 15 October 2012 - 11:49.
Edited quote and removed silly flaming


#1177 Burtros

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 18:04

disaster all round for McLaren this weekend.

Jenson was unlucky in qualy with the yellows, that said he didnt appear to have the pace to fight for pole even if he had made it into Q3. From there he was in the midfield and the risk of being hit is always there. Kobayashi was punished although already out of the race. A total nightmare all round really especially after his race pace looked so good in practice.

As for Lewis, showed why McLaren will miss him really, and perhaps why he wont miss them so much as us McLaren fans might hope. What was happening in Q1 I dont know, McLaren were massivly lucky no two ways about it. As for the race, he drove really well even with a car that looked bad on the TV screen. Some great driving to hold of some drivers and brought home a point. He couldnt have done much more than he did all weekend.



#1178 Rinehart

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:35

Another piece of bad luck for Hamilton this year, and it's 3 mechanical failures in a row now. It's just sickening really.

Button also unlucky. Of course I'm expecting Rhinehart to post how it was Buttons fault; if you qualify poorly, this is what happens. Isn't that right?

Who cares who gets the race point between them, it's so tainted at this stage anyway.


Yes I do think that Button's start crash was heavily influenced by where he qualified, not luck-related at all, exactly as I said about Hamilton's crash in Spa, which caused 1000 cats to cry.
You'll find I am consistent, if you check out my posting history!
Also, one race doesn't change my views on qualifying. There are many seasons in history where the fastest average qualifier over a season was NOT the world champion.
Qualifying is important but its accademic if you don't capitalize on a Sunday. Points are the name of the game.


#1179 fed up

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:22

This weekened was so bad that lets live on peace people,nothing to add,compare or count,just sad sad.


2 points for Lewis

In qualy and the race

:p

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#1180 Gareth

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:27

I thought it was a win this weekend for Hamilton.

But my overriding feeling was when the astro started to come up and this genuinely went through my head: "please FIA, don't put out an SC, it'll ruin Hamilton's chances of getting the Torro Rossos ... actually, scratch that, the way his season's going Hamilton is guaranteed to be the one driver that picks up the astro - get the SC out". And lo it came to pass.

The Korean GP: Hamilton's 2012 season in a microcosm.

#1181 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:49

I must admit to being surprised about how quiet this thread has been and wasn't sure whether it was the lack of anything for anyone to crow about or that nobody could decide how to score it.

Agree that it can only really be a win for Hamilton.

The broken car (again) seems to have made a mess of Hamilton's race but I was really impressed with his post race interview with the BBC. Very sanguine and mature response to the weekend and the Lewis I think we can all agree is a thoroughly decent bloke. It's the Lewis I remember from early 2009 and it would be great if we could have him all the time.

Jenson just didn't have a chance to show what he could do in the race, sadly. Such a tiny amount of time between him and Q3, and a pretty good start, so I think he would have been on for some sensible points.


#1182 Gareth

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:30

The broken car (again) seems to have made a mess of Hamilton's race but I was really impressed with his post race interview with the BBC. Very sanguine and mature response to the weekend and the Lewis I think we can all agree is a thoroughly decent bloke. It's the Lewis I remember from early 2009 and it would be great if we could have him all the time.

He kicked off the season in that vein. The move on Rosberg in Bahrain and punching the steering wheel in Valencia being the only hints that he was letting frustration get the better of him. I guess it's easier to do it at that stage of the season (when you can comfort yourself with the thought that there are plenty more races to go) and this stage of the season (where you can "comfort" yourself with the thought that it doesn't really matter anyway because the title was gone regardless). But, yes, hopefully we have this all the time from him.

Jenson just didn't have a chance to show what he could do in the race, sadly. Such a tiny amount of time between him and Q3, and a pretty good start, so I think he would have been on for some sensible points.

Yeah, would have been interesting to see what he could do on that tyre strategy. I think leap-frogging Hulk and Grosjean would have definitely been on the cards. I think Kimi would have been out of reach (Hamilton was hardly pulling away from Kimi before the car broke).

#1183 maverick69

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:56

I must admit to being surprised about how quiet this thread has been and wasn't sure whether it was the lack of anything for anyone to crow about or that nobody could decide how to score it.



That's because I think it's pretty black and white - JB didn't win. So there's no reason for certain quarters of both sides to rock up and have a big shitfight: "JB owned Hamilton"...... "No he never. There was reason X, Y, Z why that happened"...... etc.

As for my view:

Qualy
Hamilton had a bit of a scruffy and slightly fortunate Q1 - but he delivered the bacon when it mattered.
JB was unlucky with the yellow in Q1 - but he was in that position because of a poor first run........ 1 point to Hamilton.

Race
Hamilton was looking at a possible 3rd given how he was running on the primes just after the 1st stop (although that would have taken some good pit work too......). Given how dominant the Red Bulls were - that would be the best that he could have realistically expected. He then went on to salvage a point in a car that mechanically at least, was probably handling worse than a HRT on a shakedown test.
Button was unlucky to get butchered by both of the Saubers - but he was in that position because of his poor qualy......... 1 point to Hamilton.

2 points to Hamilton then.

Edited by maverick69, 15 October 2012 - 10:58.


#1184 thesham01

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:21

Its quiet because it's become a non-event. The only time Button has beaten Hamilton is when Hamilton has been disadvantaged, one way or another.

#1185 Dalton007

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:24

Its quiet because it's become a non-event. The only time Button has beaten Hamilton is when Hamilton has been disadvantaged, one way or another.


What about Australia?

#1186 thesham01

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:33

What about Australia?


Fair enough, I suppose, forgot about that. Still slightly disadvantaged with the clutch settings and strategy.

And now Kravitz and Anderson are saying that McLaren have checked out of Hamilton, so I'd expect more disadvantages to follow.

Edited by thesham01, 15 October 2012 - 11:33.


#1187 undersquare

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:42

He kicked off the season in that vein. The move on Rosberg in Bahrain and punching the steering wheel in Valencia being the only hints that he was letting frustration get the better of him.

What? The move on Rosberg in Bahrain was terrific. Exactly why I support him.

And hitting the steering wheel after being taken out is 'letting frustration get the better of him'??

Tune into JB on 'Perez' his new teammate's driving standards for some of that lol.

#1188 Gareth

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:51

What? The move on Rosberg in Bahrain was terrific. Exactly why I support him.

And hitting the steering wheel after being taken out is 'letting frustration get the better of him'??

I liked the move on Rosberg too, like you it's what attracts me to him. But it was a risky move, and his first of what had otherwise been (in the context of Hamilton's driving) a relatively conservative season. It looked to me like the botched pit stop may have seen the emotions of "I don't deserve to be behind this guy, I'm getting past come what may" coming to the fore. I liked the result, but it was a move that was out of character for his driving in the first races of the season.

Hitting the steering wheel was absolutely an ok reaction to what happened. And noteably, by the time he was being interviewed, he had his game head back on.

The point wasn't to criticse him for those two incidents, rather to highlight how calm and collected he was during the start of the season - that lessons had been learnt from 2011 - and to demonstrate it by pointing out that those two incidents were the only time it could be said that emotional Lewis was witnessed (which is pretty impressive given what went on and what seems to be Lewis' natural character).

Short version: it was praise. But you got a bit sensitive.

#1189 Force Ten

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:53

That's because I think it's pretty black and white - JB didn't win. So there's no reason for certain quarters of both sides to rock up and have a big shitfight: [i]"JB owned Hamilton"......

Funnily enough, there are "certain quarters" that have been saying exactly the same with swapped names and these quarters have been quite a lot more crowded most of the times. So, right back at ya.

#1190 tifosiMac

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:02

Hitting the steering wheel was absolutely an ok reaction to what happened. And noteably, by the time he was being interviewed, he had his game head back on.

Very true. i thought hitting the steering wheel was a positive sign to us that he is as committed as ever. Its ok to have a little tantrum, we all do it. I probably would have punched Maldonado and then handed myself in to the stewards for a couple of race bans, but Lewis handled it in a much more mature fashion.

#1191 ZooL

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:05

I thought it was a win this weekend for Hamilton.

But my overriding feeling was when the astro started to come up and this genuinely went through my head: "please FIA, don't put out an SC, it'll ruin Hamilton's chances of getting the Torro Rossos ... actually, scratch that, the way his season's going Hamilton is guaranteed to be the one driver that picks up the astro - get the SC out". And lo it came to pass.

The Korean GP: Hamilton's 2012 season in a microcosm.

In a way I wish Button didn't get taken out and finished with a good amount of points as the McLaren was capable. He would have ended up overtaking Hamilton in the WDC (or there abouts) which would have just summed up the season for me. We would have Lazy saying 2-1 to Button over 3 years, and yet there is a story to be told behind the leaderboard classification.

#1192 OoxLox

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:12

I thought it was a win this weekend for Hamilton.

But my overriding feeling was when the astro started to come up and this genuinely went through my head: "please FIA, don't put out an SC, it'll ruin Hamilton's chances of getting the Torro Rossos ... actually, scratch that, the way his season's going Hamilton is guaranteed to be the one driver that picks up the astro - get the SC out". And lo it came to pass.

The Korean GP: Hamilton's 2012 season in a microcosm.


Yeah, you have to laugh sometimes. Half the cars in the field went over that bit of astroturf once it started to flap around, but it was Lewis who collected it. Same as in Germany - last of a train of eight cars going through some debris and he's the one that gets a puncture. I'd look forward to a better 2013, but then I've just had a quick read of the Merc team thread and it's a very scary place.

#1193 robefc

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:45

I must admit to being surprised about how quiet this thread has been and wasn't sure whether it was the lack of anything for anyone to crow about or that nobody could decide how to score it.

Agree that it can only really be a win for Hamilton.

The broken car (again) seems to have made a mess of Hamilton's race but I was really impressed with his post race interview with the BBC. Very sanguine and mature response to the weekend and the Lewis I think we can all agree is a thoroughly decent bloke. It's the Lewis I remember from early 2009 and it would be great if we could have him all the time.

Jenson just didn't have a chance to show what he could do in the race, sadly. Such a tiny amount of time between him and Q3, and a pretty good start, so I think he would have been on for some sensible points.


Quiet I think because ridiculously depressing weekend for both drivers.

I was going to score it for Lewis anyway before we found out about the roll bar, although it would have been marginal and I could see why it would be a draw. With the roll bar no reasons not to give it to him although JB has clearly been unlucky on both days.

looking exclusively at lh v jb, this year is looking very similar to 2010 to me in that the points difference and the scorecard difference tell very different stories...although even more so this year.

I agree, hopefully we will see that Lewis all the time, I think the move can only help him mature...barring a 2011-esque breakdown in the event of merc being off the pace and JB sailing off with the WDC! My own breakdown will be impressive to see if that comes to pass... :p

#1194 Moore

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:49

Overall points score so far

JB - 615
LH - 620.

Just incase anyone is interested.

#1195 undersquare

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:53

I liked the move on Rosberg too, like you it's what attracts me to him. But it was a risky move, and his first of what had otherwise been (in the context of Hamilton's driving) a relatively conservative season. It looked to me like the botched pit stop may have seen the emotions of "I don't deserve to be behind this guy, I'm getting past come what may" coming to the fore. I liked the result, but it was a move that was out of character for his driving in the first races of the season.

Hitting the steering wheel was absolutely an ok reaction to what happened. And noteably, by the time he was being interviewed, he had his game head back on.

The point wasn't to criticse him for those two incidents, rather to highlight how calm and collected he was during the start of the season - that lessons had been learnt from 2011 - and to demonstrate it by pointing out that those two incidents were the only time it could be said that emotional Lewis was witnessed (which is pretty impressive given what went on and what seems to be Lewis' natural character).

Short version: it was praise. But you got a bit sensitive.

You described them as "hints that he was letting frustration get the better of him". By all means explain what you really meant, but don't make it my fault for taking your words as you wrote them.

And don't get personal.

#1196 Gareth

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:21

By all means explain what you really meant, but don't make it my fault for taking your words as you wrote them.

If you read the full exchange, rather than just homing in on the one snippet that could possibly be considered critical of Hamilton, you would have realised it was praise and would not have needed the explanation.

#1197 Sinceref189

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:41

Overall points score so far

JB - 615
LH - 620.

Just incase anyone is interested.


Thanks moore :up: on the F1 bbc comments there saying thatt button has scored more points but that place is as bad as 606 which half of the people on there do not have a clue :confused:

#1198 ayanate

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:43

In a way I wish Button didn't get taken out and finished with a good amount of points as the McLaren was capable. He would have ended up overtaking Hamilton in the WDC (or there abouts) which would have just summed up the season for me. We would have Lazy saying 2-1 to Button over 3 years, and yet there is a story to be told behind the leaderboard classification.

:up: :up:

#1199 undersquare

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:56

If you read the full exchange, rather than just homing in on the one snippet that could possibly be considered critical of Hamilton, you would have realised it was praise and would not have needed the explanation.

I read your entire post, of course. It just seemed a bit odd to be citing one of his best moves as an example of something negative. Then his mild gesture of frustration as something negative. And it turns out we see them in the same positive way. So why not look to the way you expressed yourself is all I'm saying and be agreeable, instead of blaming some personal characteristic of me for the misunderstanding.

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#1200 Gareth

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:19

So why not look to the way you expressed yourself

I have done and I'm content :)