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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#101 as65p

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:15

You do know that as long as you are outside of the DRS zone, you are 'managing' the gap?


I'm not contesting that LH had a very good chance of winning, I contest that it would have been "easy". Easy is when you drive away 10 seconds and then manage that, for example what Vettel did in Valencia.

Edited by as65p, 24 September 2012 - 01:17.


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#102 tkulla

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:17

So you are basically saying from your arm chair you are better able to judge if it would have been an easy win, really now. :lol: :lol:


Love this argument. No, I'm saying that I don't know if it would have been easy for Lewis (but I suspect not), and neither does he. Yes, he has his own data, but he doesn't have Seb's and he doesn't know what else might have happened.



#103 slmk

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:32

Love this argument. No, I'm saying that I don't know if it would have been easy for Lewis (but I suspect not), and neither does he. Yes, he has his own data, but he doesn't have Seb's and he doesn't know what else might have happened.


Seriously, at this point, who gives a crap? He DNF'd, period. It doesn't matter at this point if he was on for a win or a 2nd place.... he DNF'd.

Now, my hunch tells me he would have either finished 1st or 2nd. Vettel's pace at the end was tremendous.

#104 Sinceref189

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:37

Oh give it a rest at the end of the day Lewis DNF Vettel won, it annoys me when people try turning anything they can , all lewes said is that "We definitely had the pace to win this weekend. In fact, before I retired, I was cruising; just managing the gap back to Seb" Where does it say easy :rolleyes:

edit : on the BBC he did say easy win oh well lol

Edited by Sinceref189, 24 September 2012 - 01:42.


#105 schubacca

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:42

I thought that LH was controlling the race.

Was JB in the same league this weekend?

#106 speng

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:42

Love this argument. No, I'm saying that I don't know if it would have been easy for Lewis (but I suspect not), and neither does he. Yes, he has his own data, but he doesn't have Seb's and he doesn't know what else might have happened.

He has a much better idea than you will have so forgive me if I take his word over yours. Thank you,

#107 sofarapartguy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:15

I thought that LH was controlling the race.

Was JB in the same league this weekend?


No. But JB was much much better on the SS in the first stint than expected. His issue was the soft compaund on low tanks.

#108 Rinehart

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:28

The point for non-button fans is to see who performed better in the race.


I'm not convinced. For a start more is written about qualifying than the race. I think its whatever system you can come up with that puts Hamilton ahead.
McLaren seem to be protecting brand "Hamilton" over the gearbox issue. Can'd deny the contradiction between the RE and MW.

#109 Rinehart

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:31

No Button lost today. If ever there was a confirmation to McLaren's brass that even with the best car Button cannot finish the job then this race was it.


I think you'll find its better to score 18 points than not finish.

#110 P123

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:44

McLaren seem to be protecting brand "Hamilton" over the gearbox issue. Can'd deny the contradiction between the RE and MW.


:drunk: I thought the Button fans were meant to be the sensible ones here.... I would hope you are just having a mini-troll with that garbage.

#111 bauss

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:14

Kind of a jerk move for Lewis to claim he would have won "easy" considering Seb's pace late in the race. I'm not often critical of things drivers say, especially when they are disappointed, but Lewis should know that there's no such thing as an "easy" GP win at a street race that goes the full two hours in the heat. Not a big deal really but it's the kind of thing that makes me like him less.


it was looking a routine win, there was nothing Vettel in all his late race racepace would have done had LH still been ahead, you cant overtake here and the softs were gonna last. He has won here b4 (with Vettel hounding him then too). There is nothing wrong with him thinking it would have been one of the more comfortable race wins.. I felt the same way watching the race, and I'm normally nervous when LH is racing. if u want to dislike a guy, or already dislike him, then you choose to see everything he says in the worst possible light.

#112 skidmarks

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:33

If a driver never opens a gap more than two seconds over his pursuers it's quite easy to call BS upon any claims of easiness.


Why is is easy to call BS?

I don't think you can judge Singapore in the same way as any other track. With the abrasive, bumpy road surface, high kerbs and heavy braking required, perhaps a 2 second gap is as good as a 10 second gap? My view is that opening up a larger gap might have taken too much out of the tires, leaving precious little to use as a response for later on.

After all, there's also the safety car to consider. The life you take out of the tires by opening that gap is wasted if it comes out.

It seemed pretty easy to me. There was only ever a gap of 1.3 to 3 seconds between Hamilton and Vettel, the RBR was never close enough to make a pass. In fact, the life seemed to go out of the RBR's tires that little bit faster as Vettel tried to close in. There wasn't even the option of an undercut. It was pretty much the same way that Vettel's race was easy, as Button was never a threat, despite Button managing to close before his tires started to die.


Edited by skidmarks, 24 September 2012 - 08:54.


#113 as65p

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:47

Well, the problem isn't so much Hamilton saying he was crusing (= 'it was easy', BTW), but the people who take the term literally. I suppose he meant to say he had it under control up to the point of retirement, at least that sounds more sensible to me as taking 'cruising' at face value.

It's just a way to express disappointment over a lost opportunity. I'm quite sure had he won it we would have heard about how he drove his heart out each lap, instead of describing it as a cruise to victory.

#114 speng

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:58

Why is is easy to call BS?

I don't think you can judge Singapore in the same way as any other track. With the abrasive, bumpy road surface, high kerbs and heavy braking required, perhaps a 2 second gap is as good as a 10 second gap? My view is that opening up a larger gap might have taken too much out of the tires, leaving precious little to use as a response for later on.

After all, there's also the safety car to consider. The life you take out of the tires by opening that gap is wasted if it comes out.

It seemed pretty easy to me. There was only ever a gap of 1.3 to 3 seconds between Hamilton and Vettel, the RBR was never close enough to make a pass. In fact, the life seemed to go out of the RBR's tires that little bit faster as Vettel tried to close in. There wasn't even the option of an undercut. It was pretty much the same way that Vettel's race was easy, as Button was never a threat, despite Button managing to close before his tires started to die.

Absolutely correct and what I cannot see why it is so difficult for some poster to figure that out.

#115 Rinehart

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:04

:drunk: I thought the Button fans were meant to be the sensible ones here.... I would hope you are just having a mini-troll with that garbage.


So you admit there is smoke considering you recognise "that garbage" exits...

#116 robefc

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:11

I'm not convinced. For a start more is written about qualifying than the race. I think its whatever system you can come up with that puts Hamilton ahead.
McLaren seem to be protecting brand "Hamilton" over the gearbox issue. Can'd deny the contradiction between the RE and MW.


No signs whatsoever before the race, otherwise the gearbox would have been switched.



#117 maverick69

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:14

Erm..... and back on topic.

Another win for Hamilton.

Outqualified Button by a second and had him easily in his pocket before he retired.

#118 oligc94

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:25

I think you'll find its better to score 18 points than not finish.


True, but you could hardly argue that it was Lewis' fault that he didn't finish.


#119 oligc94

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:26

Erm..... and back on topic.

Another win for Hamilton.

Outqualified Button by a second and had him easily in his pocket before he retired.


:up:

Hamilton looked on it all weekend. I can't see how anybody would give this to Button...

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#120 maverick69

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:28

True, but you could hardly argue that it was Lewis' fault that he didn't finish.


Indeed.

This thread is about the comparative performances of the drivers.

If not - then why not base it on points and finishes and get rid of the thread?

#121 Lazy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:34

Erm..... and back on topic.

Another win for Hamilton.

Outqualified Button by a second and had him easily in his pocket before he retired.


Not sure where this 1 sec comes from, it was 0.5 secs.

Sure it looked like he was going to win but easily in his pocket is Lala speak.

Jenson came back very strong at the end of the 1st stint and looked to get a bit more out of his tyres. Could well have had a tyre advantage at the end of the race.

#122 PretentiousBread

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:37

Indeed.

This thread is about the comparative performances of the drivers.

If not - then why not base it on points and finishes and get rid of the thread?


It is, until it doesn't suit someone's agenda and then suddenly points are all that matter.

#123 sofarapartguy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:39

Jenson came back very strong at the end of the 1st stint and looked to get a bit more out of his tyres. Could well have had a tyre advantage at the end of the race.


THB JB was much more impressive on the first stint, having so much speed by the end of it - his final laps was not that great. I believe he just didn't like the softs this weekend.

#124 maverick69

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:44

Not sure where this 1 sec comes from, it was 0.5 secs.

Sure it looked like he was going to win but easily in his pocket is Lala speak.

Jenson came back very strong at the end of the 1st stint and looked to get a bit more out of his tyres. Could well have had a tyre advantage at the end of the race.


Sorry. My mistake. 0.577 seconds if it makes you feel any better.

As for the "lala speak" - given the fact that Hamilton, Whimarsh et al. said that Hamilton was "cruising" then I cannot see where you are coming from. Hell, you could hear that he was short shifting way, way before his gearbox problem. And your perceived tyre advantage or not - Hamilton was managing the gap to Vettel rather nicely. Every time Vettel stuck in a lap in order to get into DRS range, Hamilton simply responded. He also easily dropped Vettel by some 4 seconds on the run up to the pitstops..... yet Button had no answer to Vettel once Hamilton was out.

Like I say....... in his pocket.......

Edited by maverick69, 24 September 2012 - 10:44.


#125 moorsey

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:44

it was looking a routine win, there was nothing Vettel in all his late race racepace would have done had LH still been ahead, you cant overtake here and the softs were gonna last. He has won here b4 (with Vettel hounding him then too). There is nothing wrong with him thinking it would have been one of the more comfortable race wins.. I felt the same way watching the race, and I'm normally nervous when LH is racing. if u want to dislike a guy, or already dislike him, then you choose to see everything he says in the worst possible light.


Exactly and any good, thinking driver knows that if he opens too big a gap to the following car he is 1. Using up his own tyres too quickly and 2. Giving the following car some clean air to drive in.
It is much better to maintain a gap just over the 1 sec to avoid the DRS threat and to keep the following car in dirty air which will use up his tyres quicker. This is evident by watching Vettels times at the end when he had clean air to push in.


#126 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:54

Jenson made the first tyres last 5 laps longer than Hamilton. We could assume that the pitstops would have evened out, that the undercut would have kept both Vettel and Hamilton ahead, or Jenson would have been able to come back strong with 5-10 lap fresher tyres at the end and taken a glorious victory. It's all moot, frankly. I do think it's unreasonable to argue that the only 'right' prediction is that Hamilton would have had an easy win despite his interview, because of the many variables which had yet to play out. At the same time there's surely no doubt that from what we saw, Hamilton was this weekends performance winner for the scorecard.

#127 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:56

yet Button had no answer to Vettel once Hamilton was out.

Because the safety car periods reset Button's strategy.

#128 Lazy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:59

Sorry. My mistake. 0.577 seconds if it makes you feel any better.

As for the "lala speak" - given the fact that Hamilton, Whimarsh et al. said that Hamilton was "cruising" then I cannot see where you are coming from. Hell, you could hear that he was short shifting way, way before his gearbox problem. And your perceived tyre advantage or not - Hamilton was managing the gap to Vettel rather nicely. Every time Vettel stuck in a lap in order to get into DRS range, Hamilton simply responded. He also easily dropped Vettel by some 4 seconds on the run up to the pitstops..... yet Button had no answer to Vettel once Hamilton was out.

Like I say....... in his pocket.......


Vettel seemed to have the same problem when he got close to Hamilton as Jenson did when he got close to Vettel , the tyres start to go very quickly.

All weekend the McLaren was having degredation problems on the softs, not just Button. You don't know at all what would have happened later in the race, you can't realistically apply such simplistic extrapolations.

I'm sure Hamilton would have won but I very much doubt it would have been easy.

#129 zack1994

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:08

Sorry. My mistake. 0.577 seconds if it makes you feel any better.

As for the "lala speak" - given the fact that Hamilton, Whimarsh et al. said that Hamilton was "cruising" then I cannot see where you are coming from. Hell, you could hear that he was short shifting way, way before his gearbox problem. And your perceived tyre advantage or not - Hamilton was managing the gap to Vettel rather nicely. Every time Vettel stuck in a lap in order to get into DRS range, Hamilton simply responded. He also easily dropped Vettel by some 4 seconds on the run up to the pitstops..... yet Button had no answer to Vettel once Hamilton was out.Like I say....... in his pocket.......

So your comparing 2 differents moments in a race thats fair, you know jenson was catching both of them at that point before the pitstops when lewis was dropping vettel by 4 seconds poor argument really

#130 maverick69

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:09

Because the safety car periods reset Button's strategy.


Granted JB's strategy was somewhat compromised - but you can only really go on what you have seen...... that and a safety car in Singapore is about as guaranteed as the sun rising in the east. Ergo, I was screaming at the TV screen for McLaren to pit Button as soon as the 30 second gap opened up to 3rd place, which would potentially force Vettel's hand and potentially give JB the overlap.

#131 maverick69

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:14

So your comparing 2 differents moments in a race thats fair, you know jenson was catching both of them at that point before the pitstops when lewis was dropping vettel by 4 seconds poor argument really


What? As poor as giving JB the win because he finished the race? Or as poor as hypothesising what would have happened without the SC etc?

All I'm saying is what I saw based on qualy and what was happening whilst Hamilton was still in the race. Sure there is an extrapolation based on JB not doing much to Vettel post SC - but it is not completely irrational.

Anyways. I've said what I've said. I'll stand by it. And I'll post again after Suzuka (which IMO is JBs strongest track).

Edited by maverick69, 24 September 2012 - 11:22.


#132 Jamiednm

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:17

you know jenson was catching both of them at that point before the pitstops when lewis was dropping vettel by 4 seconds poor argument really


That's irrelevant, because both Hamilton and Vettel had dropped Button way before the pitstops. JB wasn't any quicker, he just chose to use some more pace towards the end of the stint rather than at the start like LH and SV.


#133 Lazy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:28

Granted JB's strategy was somewhat compromised - but you can only really go on what you have seen...... that and a safety car in Singapore is about as guaranteed as the sun rising in the east. Ergo, I was screaming at the TV screen for McLaren to pit Button as soon as the 30 second gap opened up to 3rd place, which would potentially force Vettel's hand and potentially give JB the overlap.


I agree with that, it looked like he had an opportunity to get past Vettel when he came out of the pits into traffic. I thought Jenson could do a couple of laps to clear the train, pit and get past Vettel before he got into clear. I can only assume they were still aiming at Hamilton at that point.

#134 hammibal

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:29

If a driver never opens a gap more than two seconds over his pursuers it's quite easy to call BS upon any claims of easiness.

He was simply maintaining a cushion outside the DRS zone, managing the tyres was crucial on such an abrasive track, i'm sure you would have been quite happy for him to storm ahead only then to burn up his tyres, then we could read about his lack of intelligence or whatever

No. But JB was much much better on the SS in the first stint than expected. His issue was the soft compaund on low tanks.

I believe that was more to do with Lewis and Vettel pushing too hard early in the stint, most of the field were coming back towards them

:drunk: I thought the Button fans were meant to be the sensible ones here.... I would hope you are just having a mini-troll with that garbage.

Same old same old, end of season appraisal will put this down to being Lewis's fault by some

#135 Lazy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:30

What? As poor as giving JB the win because he finished the race? Or as poor as hypothesising what would have happened without the SC etc?

All I'm saying is what I saw based on qualy and what was happening whilst Hamilton was still in the race. Sure there is an extrapolation based on JB not doing much to Vettel post SC - but it is not completely irrational.

Anyways. I've said what I've said. I'll stand by it. And I'll post again after Suzuka (which IMO is JBs strongest track).


I'm not sure anybodies giving the win to JB, I personally thought Lewis would win due to track position but that it would be close.

#136 maverick69

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:31

I agree with that, it looked like he had an opportunity to get past Vettel when he came out of the pits into traffic. I thought Jenson could do a couple of laps to clear the train, pit and get past Vettel before he got into clear. I can only assume they were still aiming at Hamilton at that point.


This was after Hamilton was out - about 3 or 4 laps before the SC. A classic "In Hindsight" moment perhaps.....

#137 sofarapartguy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:33

I agree with that, it looked like he had an opportunity to get past Vettel when he came out of the pits into traffic. I thought Jenson could do a couple of laps to clear the train, pit and get past Vettel before he got into clear. I can only assume they were still aiming at Hamilton at that point.

I think they were trying to do a 2-stopper for JB hence didn't pit him a lap after Hamilton.

#138 Lazy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:39

This was after Hamilton was out - about 3 or 4 laps before the SC. A classic "In Hindsight" moment perhaps.....


Ok, we're talking about different times then, I was talking about the first stops. Jenson had a 26 sec gap to Vettel at one point when Vettel was in traffic.

#139 hammibal

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:41

Not sure where this 1 sec comes from, it was 0.5 secs.

Sure it looked like he was going to win but easily in his pocket is Lala speak.

Jenson came back very strong at the end of the 1st stint and looked to get a bit more out of his tyres. Could well have had a tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Like has been said Jenson just used his tyres differently he still got gapped by Lewis and Vettel

Jenson made the first tyres last 5 laps longer than Hamilton. We could assume that the pitstops would have evened out, that the undercut would have kept both Vettel and Hamilton ahead, or Jenson would have been able to come back strong with 5-10 lap fresher tyres at the end and taken a glorious victory. It's all moot, frankly. I do think it's unreasonable to argue that the only 'right' prediction is that Hamilton would have had an easy win despite his interview, because of the many variables which had yet to play out. At the same time there's surely no doubt that from what we saw, Hamilton was this weekends performance winner for the scorecard.

Well all that we can see at the end on the same life tyres Jenson couldnt live with Vettel, 5 laps fresher tyres might only have equalised that situation, also bear in mind the extra gap that Vettel would build up on Jenson whilst he's running around on his old tyres

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#140 Lazy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:46

I think they were trying to do a 2-stopper for JB hence didn't pit him a lap after Hamilton.


Exactly, maybe MW forgot to tell him about the sabotaged gearbox :)

#141 Force Ten

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:51

Erm..... and back on topic.

Another win for Hamilton.

Outqualified Button by a second
and had him easily in his pocket before he retired.

Why don't you invent even more impressive stats when you're at the inventing business? Why not say "Outqualified Button by 4 seconds and was on the verge of lapping him by the end of the race" - I mean, when you throw out the facts as spectacularly as you do why stop there?

#142 as65p

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:10

I'm not sure anybodies giving the win to JB, I personally thought Lewis would win due to track position but that it would be close.


JB himself said his problem was Q3, and I think he's quite right with that. He should have been able to qualify on the front row and, given how things developed, won the race from there. Given him and Hamiltons respective strengths over one lap, I reckon a Q3 gap of around two tenths 'normal', half a second is definitely too much, i.e. Button underperforming a bit.

#143 Juggles

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:11

Jenson made the first tyres last 5 laps longer than Hamilton. We could assume that the pitstops would have evened out, that the undercut would have kept both Vettel and Hamilton ahead, or Jenson would have been able to come back strong with 5-10 lap fresher tyres at the end and taken a glorious victory. It's all moot, frankly. I do think it's unreasonable to argue that the only 'right' prediction is that Hamilton would have had an easy win despite his interview, because of the many variables which had yet to play out. At the same time there's surely no doubt that from what we saw, Hamilton was this weekends performance winner for the scorecard.


Button made his first stop two laps after Hamilton, not five. Are you saying Button's super softs had two qualifying cycles in them? If so that's news to me.

#144 Juggles

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:15

JB himself said his problem was Q3, and I think he's quite right with that. He should have been able to qualify on the front row and, given how things developed, won the race from there. Given him and Hamiltons respective strenghts over one lap, I reckon a Q3 gap of around two tenths 'normal', half a second is definitely too much, i.e. Button underperforming a bit.


Or the alternative, of course, which is Hamilton putting in a stunning lap. From the sounds of it Singapore is next to impossible to get the perfect lap on; the drivers just have to get as close as possible. From Hamilton's onboard he didn't look far off doing that.

#145 maverick69

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:30

Why don't you invent even more impressive stats when you're at the inventing business? Why not say "Outqualified Button by 4 seconds and was on the verge of lapping him by the end of the race" - I mean, when you throw out the facts as spectacularly as you do why stop there?


Like I said to Lazy. I am deeply sorry for offending anybody. It was infact 0.577 seconds and rounding up to a whole number is just not cricket in a sport where things are measured in many, many more DPs. TBH - I think I may have got the 1 sec thing from Q2...... or maybe not. I don't really know because I was down the pub. All I remember is that it was a fairly hefty tonking.

Anyways. My deepest apologies for the hurt and anguish - and I promise to be more attentive and factual in the future :)

#146 BillBald

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:50

Jenson made the first tyres last 5 laps longer than Hamilton. We could assume that the pitstops would have evened out, that the undercut would have kept both Vettel and Hamilton ahead, or Jenson would have been able to come back strong with 5-10 lap fresher tyres at the end and taken a glorious victory. It's all moot, frankly. I do think it's unreasonable to argue that the only 'right' prediction is that Hamilton would have had an easy win despite his interview, because of the many variables which had yet to play out. At the same time there's surely no doubt that from what we saw, Hamilton was this weekends performance winner for the scorecard.


Actually Jenson stayed out 2 laps longer than Lewis, 4 laps longer than Vettel.

At that point in the race, it looked like Vettel might have to go for a 3 stop, while Jenson could make a 2 stop work. With Lewis, it was not so clear.

It's been pointed out that if Jenson had pitted a lap earlier, he might have got out in front of Vettel, but it would have been risky and would have needed a really good pitstop, something McLaren can't reliably produce (and didn't this time for Jenson).

So although I've been very critical of McLaren strategy this year, I have no complaints this time. What Jenson needed was the kind of luck with the Safety Car that Vettel got in Melbourne. If he could have stayed out longer than Vettel on the next stint, and the SC came after Vettel pitted, Jenson would have taken the lead. Alternatively, he could have been on much fresher tyres at the end of the race.

The race didn't turn out as most observers were expecting, 3 stops was expected to be the norm, so Jenson's plan was not a bad one, and it seems that his setup struggles are over. In Hungary he was around half a second slower than Lewis in quali, but then had to stop early in the race after a slowish first stint. I thought that something similar was happening again in the early laps, so I was very happy to see the late pitstop.



#147 Lazy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:59

Like I said to Lazy. I am deeply sorry for offending anybody. It was infact 0.577 seconds and rounding up to a whole number is just not cricket in a sport where things are measured in many, many more DPs. TBH - I think I may have got the 1 sec thing from Q2...... or maybe not. I don't really know because I was down the pub. All I remember is that it was a fairly hefty tonking.

Anyways. My deepest apologies for the hurt and anguish - and I promise to be more attentive and factual in the future :)


:)


#148 Lazy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:03

Interestingly, since they have been together at McLaren:

Hamilton has had 3 dnf's with broken gearbox, 2 grid penalties for broken gearbox and one limp home with broken gearbox.

Button has had no problems with his gearbox.

#149 Watkins74

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:19

Interestingly, since they have been together at McLaren:

Hamilton has had 3 dnf's with broken gearbox, 2 grid penalties for broken gearbox and one limp home with broken gearbox.

Button has had no problems with his gearbox.

So your data brings you to what conclusion?

#150 robefc

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:23

I'm sure Hamilton would have won but I very much doubt it would have been easy.


I'm not sure anybodies giving the win to JB, I personally thought Lewis would win due to track position but that it would be close.


Seems pretty reasonable for a button fan to say that lewis deserves the point and probably would have won but it wouldn't have been easy.

It does seem that in this thread that sort of qualified statement is offensive to some who will only accept jenson is being completely blown away by TDG.

Pity because a lot of the time there could be agreement and sensible discussion.

Interestingly, since they have been together at McLaren:

Hamilton has had 3 dnf's with broken gearbox, 2 grid penalties for broken gearbox and one limp home with broken gearbox.

Button has had no problems with his gearbox.


It's difficult not to conlcude from that evidence that lewis is harder on the car with material consequences...however, it doesn't tie in with his record pre 2010, unless macca have started building more fragile gearboxes?