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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#151 Sinceref189

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:26

Interestingly, since they have been together at McLaren:

Hamilton has had 3 dnf's with broken gearbox, 2 grid penalties for broken gearbox and one limp home with broken gearbox.

Button has had no problems with his gearbox.


Oh dear Lazy i fear you have just added fuel to the fire and as my good friend BANE would say " the fire rises" :p

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#152 Obi Offiah

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:29

Seems pretty reasonable for a button fan to say that lewis deserves the point and probably would have won but it wouldn't have been easy.

It does seem that in this thread that sort of qualified statement is offensive to some who will only accept jenson is being completely blown away by TDG.

Pity because a lot of the time there could be agreement and sensible discussion.

Agreed. It's difficult to say what would have happened. Jenson said he struggled on the softs, Lewis may have been more comfortable and walked it, then again he may have had similar pace or struggled more, we'll never know.


It's difficult not to conlcude from that evidence that lewis is harder on the car with material consequences...however, it doesn't tie in with his record pre 2010, unless macca have started building more fragile gearboxes?

Some of those failures/grid penalties may have been the result of collisions also e.g Singapore 2010 with Webber, Germany 2010 with barrier during a wet FP session, Japan 2010 carry over from Singapore?

#153 robefc

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:33

Some of those failures/grid penalties may have been the result of collisions also e.g Singapore 2010 with Webber, Germany 2010 with barrier during a wet FP session, Japan 2010 carry over from Singapore?


Remind me why macca didn't just replace the gearbox post singapore? Seems like a no brainer...

#154 BillBald

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:38

Remind me why macca didn't just replace the gearbox post singapore? Seems like a no brainer...


I thought they did, and the replacement one gave trouble. But I'm not entirely sure.



#155 Obi Offiah

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:41

I thought they did, and the replacement one gave trouble. But I'm not entirely sure.

Yes, he received a grid penalty in Suzuka for changing the gearbox. I also remember him hitting the barrier exiting Degner (SP), but I don't know in what FP session this was (e.g FP 3) and whether it carried over into the race.

#156 Kvothe

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:41

Agreed. It's difficult to say what would have happened. Jenson said he struggled on the softs, Lewis may have been more comfortable and walked it, then again he may have had similar pace or struggled more, we'll never know.



Some of those failures/grid penalties may have been the result of collisions also e.g Singapore 2010 with Webber, Germany 2010 with barrier during a wet FP session, Japan 2010 carry over from Singapore?


different gearboxes are used for practice and qualifying/race.

Also Robefc is right in that it doesn't tie in with Lewis' pre 2010 record, or the fact we're in a Pirelli era where not only do you have to be smooth (look at Lewis' singapore lap compared to Grosjean) but during the race your'e often managing the pace and nowhere near the limit. (Lewis: I was cruising)

#157 hammibal

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:42

Interestingly, since they have been together at McLaren:

Hamilton has had 3 dnf's with broken gearbox, 2 grid penalties for broken gearbox and one limp home with broken gearbox.

Button has had no problems with his gearbox.

Pre-Button Lewis had no such problems, surely you're not saying Jenson has been tinkering? :cat:

#158 Obi Offiah

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:49

different gearboxes are used for practice and qualifying/race.

Also Robefc is right in that it doesn't tie in with Lewis' pre 2010 record, or the fact we're in a Pirelli era where not only do you have to be smooth (look at Lewis' singapore lap compared to Grosjean) but during the race your'e often managing the pace and nowhere near the limit. (Lewis: I was cruising)

Yes, contact with the barrier in Germany happened on Friday apparently so it would have been the practice gearbox in the car. I'm with you on the whole driving smoothly aspect. He had a problem heading into China, with a gearbox that had only done Aus, Qual & Race and Mal, Qual & wet Race, so it difficult to imagine aggressive driving having a role to play.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 24 September 2012 - 13:50.


#159 BillBald

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:56

Pre-Button Lewis had no such problems, surely you're not saying Jenson has been tinkering? :cat:


Don't forget the whole team is against Lewis. :)

It could be that Lewis is having to drive harder to beat Jenson than he did with Heikki (but perhaps not Alonso).




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#160 Kvothe

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 14:03

Yes, contact with the barrier in Germany happened on Friday apparently so it would have been the practice gearbox in the car. I'm with you on the whole driving smoothly aspect. He had a problem heading into China, with a gearbox that had only done Aus, Qual & Race and Mal, Qual & wet Race, so it difficult to imagine aggressive driving having a role to play.


I think the common link is how aggressive all the teams have been with implementing the coke bottle to claw back all the downforce lost through the banning of both the DDD and subsequently the EBD.

This year for example, there have been either gearbox failures, or gearbox replacements nearly ever race weekend.

#161 Kvothe

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 14:03

Yes, contact with the barrier in Germany happened on Friday apparently so it would have been the practice gearbox in the car. I'm with you on the whole driving smoothly aspect. He had a problem heading into China, with a gearbox that had only done Aus, Qual & Race and Mal, Qual & wet Race, so it difficult to imagine aggressive driving having a role to play.


I think the common link is how aggressive all the teams have been with implementing the coke bottle to claw back all the downforce lost through the banning of both the DDD and subsequently the EBD.

This year for example, there have been either gearbox failures, or gearbox replacements nearly every race weekend.

Edited by Kvothe, 24 September 2012 - 14:13.


#162 Lazy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 14:59

So your data brings you to what conclusion?



Pre-Button Lewis had no such problems, surely you're not saying Jenson has been tinkering? :cat:



I hesitate to draw any conclusions :)

#163 Peter Perfect

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 15:04

Could the Singapore Sling have had anything to do with the failure? TBH I was surprised that there weren't more transmission related problems during the race.

#164 Lazy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 15:33

It's difficult not to conlcude from that evidence that lewis is harder on the car with material consequences...however, it doesn't tie in with his record pre 2010, unless macca have started building more fragile gearboxes?


Guaranteed Button will kill his gearbox at Suzuka now :)


#165 Lights

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 15:56

Interestingly, since they have been together at McLaren:

Hamilton has had 3 dnf's with broken gearbox, 2 grid penalties for broken gearbox and one limp home with broken gearbox.

Button has had no problems with his gearbox.

Just curious, where did you get that data from?

#166 Lazy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 16:25

Just curious, where did you get that data from?


wiki, viva, mainly

#167 zack1994

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 16:33

What? As poor as giving JB the win because he finished the race? Or as poor as hypothesising what would have happened without the SC etc?

All I'm saying is what I saw based on qualy and what was happening whilst Hamilton was still in the race. Sure there is an extrapolation based on JB not doing much to Vettel post SC - but it is not completely irrational.

Anyways. I've said what I've said. I'll stand by it. And I'll post again after Suzuka (which IMO is JBs strongest track).

i haven't mentioned anything about that so you must be talking about someone else's posts
And yes it was a poor argument, to prove lewis had jenson in his pocket you picked out a part of the race where infact jenson was catching lewis :confused:
And in the last stint jenson had vettel's pace but didn't have his degradation.

#168 peroa

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 16:43

The gearbox could've suffered from the electrical lines under the circuit.
Don't you guys remember there were issues with the electromagnetism and gearbox failures since the first gp here.
IIRC the teams needed extra shielding.
BTW mac seems to have some issues with the gearboxes, Sam Michael said that FI also had some problems.

#169 robefc

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 17:18

Guaranteed Button will kill his gearbox at Suzuka now :)


:lol:

Well he is hard on those fuel pumps too...:p

#170 Slartibartfast

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 18:35

McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh hinted after the race that Button might start to sacrifice his own dim title hopes to help Hamilton.

"Jenson has had a conversation with me, he initiated it," Whitmarsh said.

"He's an immensely competitive individual, but he's a team player. Things that happen in the future will come from within him. I'll never ask and I don't want to ask.

"If he chooses to do something in the best interest of the team, that's up to him."

- Source: Andrew Benson, via BBC News app

Does that mean Team Orders without the team's orders? Or is it teamwork? Or is the Smiling Assassin just setting up an alibi?

#171 garoidb

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 18:41

- Source: Andrew Benson, via BBC News app

Does that mean Team Orders without the team's orders? Or is it teamwork? Or is the Smiling Assassin just setting up an alibi?


Which one is the smiling assassin, Button or Whitmarsh? I like the expression.

Button, of course, is well entitled to play political games. This time, he might consider that it is to his advantage to be seen to work for Lewis to win the WDC (or that it would be very damaging if he was thought to be acting against the team's current mission)


#172 robefc

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 19:16

- Source: Andrew Benson, via BBC News app

Does that mean Team Orders without the team's orders? Or is it teamwork? Or is the Smiling Assassin just setting up an alibi?


I don't know but the line about things from the future coming from within him sounds very sci fi!

#173 hammibal

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 19:20

i haven't mentioned anything about that so you must be talking about someone else's posts
And yes it was a poor argument, to prove lewis had jenson in his pocket you picked out a part of the race where infact jenson was catching lewis :confused:
And in the last stint jenson had vettel's pace but didn't have his degradation.

Was that the part were Lewis was cruising and was happy that Jenson was catching Vettel to give him some greif?

You need to run the last stint past me :confused:

#174 zack1994

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 19:24

Was that the part were Lewis was cruising and was happy that Jenson was catching Vettel to give him some greif?

You need to run the last stint past me :confused:

No that was the second stint i'm on about the the first stint before the first pit stops
When the SC went in button was right with vettel for some laps then droped back cause of degradation.


#175 hammibal

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 19:32

No that was the second stint i'm on about the the first stint before the first pit stops
When the SC went in button was right with vettel for some laps then droped back cause of degradation.

Well ive said before i believe Lewis and Vettel went too hard in the early laps, their pace dropped compared to the rest of the field not just Jenson, after that it was tyre preservation mode

#176 Slartibartfast

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 19:57

Which one is the smiling assassin, Button or Whitmarsh? I like the expression.

I meant Button, but it could equally apply to Whitmarsh. It's either a Bonaventura expression or a variation of one. It's from some time late last season.

#177 as65p

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 20:09

I meant Button, but it could equally apply to Whitmarsh. It's either a Bonaventura expression or a variation of one. It's from some time late last season.


IIRC it was Silent Assassin.

Just nitpicking a bit, 'smiling' works too I guess.  ;)

#178 Obi Offiah

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 20:12

I meant Button, but it could equally apply to Whitmarsh. It's either a Bonaventura expression or a variation of one. It's from some time late last season.

I haven't heard that name in a long while.

#179 BillBald

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 21:07

IIRC it was Silent Assassin.

Just nitpicking a bit, 'smiling' works too I guess. ;)


'Smiling Assassin' came from a Spanish Santander advert, similar to the one about Lewis as the 'best bad guy', but featuring Jenson with the punchline 'Sometimes danger hides behind a smile'.

:)


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#180 MinT

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 11:55

Final score - Button win

 ;)

#181 sofarapartguy

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:22

Final score - Button win

;)


At the end of the day, it wasn't about points, was it? :cat:

#182 Lazy

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:29

Final score - Button win

;)


Not at all, this year has just become the decider and Lewis is in the driving seat atm.

#183 Lights

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 14:33

Seeing as the only way Jenson can still impress me more than Lewis over their partnership is Jenson winning and Lewis crashing out in every single race left this season, I guess I have to conclude Lewis won it.

#184 Lazy

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 15:46

Seeing as the only way Jenson can still impress me more than Lewis over their partnership is Jenson winning and Lewis crashing out in every single race left this season, I guess I have to conclude Lewis won it.


:D

2 out of 3 seasons will do for me.

#185 MinT

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 17:06

Well - whatever happens by the end of this season on thing is "for sure".

The Hami / Button battle was a hell of a lot closer over the 3 seasons than most Hami fans would ever like to have admitted before it started.

#186 Force Ten

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 17:33

The Hami / Button battle was a hell of a lot closer over the 3 seasons than most Hami fans would ever like to have admitted before it started.

Still won't.

#187 karlth

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 17:37

Well - whatever happens by the end of this season on thing is "for sure".

The Hami / Button battle was a hell of a lot closer over the 3 seasons than most Hami fans would ever like to have admitted before it started.


That's true :)


#188 Rocket73

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:47

THE END IS NIGH!

#189 SunnyENTP

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:38

Seeing as the only way Jenson can still impress me more than Lewis over their partnership is Jenson winning and Lewis crashing out in every single race left this season, I guess I have to conclude Lewis won it.



it would be interesting to see The Lewis /Nico and the Button/ Perez thread as I am sure both camps in this thread would be pilling in to add their pennies worth :lol:

If Perez beats Button then it make Lewis and but more so Button look bad.
If Button beats Perez then there would be talk of it being his team and Checo needing time to adjust
If Nico beats Lewis then there would be more gloating from McLaren fans but it makes Button 2011 less special
If Lewis beats Nico he has to beat him convincingly


#190 tifosiMac

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:06

it would be interesting to see The Lewis /Nico and the Button/ Perez thread as I am sure both camps in this thread would be pilling in to add their pennies worth :lol:

If Perez beats Button then it make Lewis and but more so Button look bad.
If Button beats Perez then there would be talk of it being his team and Checo needing time to adjust
If Nico beats Lewis then there would be more gloating from McLaren fans but it makes Button 2011 less special
If Lewis beats Nico he has to beat him convincingly

Looking at your examples it seems Lewis has to do an awful lot more than anybody else to pass your test. I get the impression even if Lewis beats Nico convincingly, it'll still be very much open for criticism.

Edited by tifosiMac, 29 September 2012 - 10:07.


#191 BernieEc

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:08

I shall miss this thread........only 6 races to go before its finally decommissioned........anyway Perez vs Button and Hamilton vs Rosberg will interesting

#192 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:09

Looking at your examples it seems Lewis has to do an awful lot more than anybody else to pass your test. I get the impression even if Lewis beats Nico convincingly, it'll still be very much open for criticism.


Yes, I think Lewis just needs to beat Nico by any margin to call it a good season.

#193 Jamiednm

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:13


There's a bit more pressure on Jenson now for the rest of the season. He won't want to get beaten by a driver whose leaving 'to fulfil dreams of multiple WDCs'.

#194 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:18

There's a bit more pressure on Jenson now for the rest of the season. He won't want to get beaten by a driver whose leaving 'to fulfil dreams of multiple WDCs'.


It depends. If Lewis can hang on to the faint possibility of a title, McLaren (and Jenson) will have to support that. A WDC would be a good achievement for McLaren's record, and they would far rather Lewis win it in a McLaren than Fernando in a Ferrari or Seb in a Red Bull.

If Lewis has another DNF (or a bad finish relative to Alonso), then the WDC becomes less relevant but the WCC comes into play. They are 36 points adrift of Red Bull with a possible haul of 43 at each race (and McLaren have the pace for 1-2s). They are also only 16 ahead of Ferrari although I would be flabbergasted if Ferrari finished ahead of them in the WCC. Either way, there is something solid to go for (particularly victory in the WCC).

#195 SunnyENTP

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:25

Looking at your examples it seems Lewis has to do an awful lot more to do than anybody else to pass your test. I get the impression even if Lewis beats Nico convincingly, it'll still be very much open for criticism.



Well the more you are rated the higher the expectations. Although Lewis has more to lose you also have to see that he has the chance to gain a lot.

A few thing that could be positives for Lewis

1 - He was accused of not being complete driver until he moves to a midfield team - Check!
2 - He was accused of not being to win unless the car - if he wins races then he looks better than Schumacher who could not do it for 3 years in MGP
3 - He has a chance to show how good he really is a midfield team car
4 - McLaren not challenging Ferrari and RB for pole would show what McLaren are missing
5 - If McLaren are doing well but not leading there would always be 'What if Lewis was at McLaren'


So it's not all that bad Lewis just needs to do a 2009. We saw what he did in that dog of McLaren, he can do the same in Merc and just like Alonso got a lot of respect in Renualt during his wilderness years.

#196 SunnyENTP

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:28

I shall miss this thread........only 6 races to go before its finally decommissioned........anyway Perez vs Button and Hamilton vs Rosberg will interesting



I don't think any of them would be interesting - however Lewis vs his shadow would still create traffic. Button vs Perez I cant see generating that much traffic or interest per se.

#197 robefc

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:35

Not at all, this year has just become the decider and Lewis is in the driving seat atm.


You think there might be a mutter or two here and there about macca fixing it if jenson overhauls the deficit? :p

At least there'd be some semblance of a rationale for that now I guess!

#198 Lazy

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:39

You think there might be a mutter or two here and there about macca fixing it if jenson overhauls the deficit? :p

At least there'd be some semblance of a rationale for that now I guess!



I could live with that :D

#199 robefc

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:45

I could live with that :D


:lol:

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#200 bauss

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:50

I don't think any of them would be interesting - however Lewis vs his shadow would still create traffic. Button vs Perez I cant see generating that much traffic or interest per se.


most of the Lewis antagonists here would migrate too and become Rosberg fans