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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#2051 P123

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:36

I'm a Hamilton fan, and I thought JB's defence was fine. He held on for several laps against a faster car on faster tyres, with rejigged gearing to aid overtaking and with two helpings of DRS 'push to pass'.

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#2052 tifosiMac

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:37

As a Hamilton fan, you shouldn't overdo it with the Button slagging in colourful language. "caught napping", "falling asleep" "rookie mistake", that's all very fitting to a driver outbraking himself with no pressure from behind and then immediately raising the lame "my tyres are cold" excuse over the radio.

Did Hamilton himself not correct Lee McKenzie on the BBC when she said he had a 'faultless race' up until his retirement? Lewis criticized that mistake himself and took total responsibility for it. Something so minor, yet facts are ignored as we've come to expect here. :rolleyes:

EDIT: http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20197997

Edited by tifosiMac, 06 November 2012 - 08:37.


#2053 P123

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:42

Believe me, I wasn't happy when Button failed to deny Vettel of the podium. Yet still... it happens, being overtaken by a faster, at worst equal fast car on better tyres.

A driver doesn't deserve to be bashed into the ground for it. Especially not in comparison to another driver making an unforced error that would have ended his race there an then, 20 years ago, in a gravel trap.


So in order to defend Button, you've taken the position of attacking Hamilton instead. Nothing if not consistant!

PS- 20 years ago none of them would have been able to take half the lines they do through corners these days. Track limits? There's no penalty for going beyond them.

#2054 peroa

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:50

The car that appeared at Australia was ok wasn't it?

The question is was the (untested) car that it suddenly mutated into at Barcelona done as a result of drivers feedback or the designers panicking.

Panicking?
The car that appeared in Barcelona was more than OK, wasn't it?


#2055 Lazy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:54

So in order to defend Button, you've taken the position of attacking Hamilton instead. Nothing if not consistant!


Tbh I don't think it's unreasonable to point out to a Hamilton fan, not necessarily as clear thinking as yourself, who criticised Button in a very derogatory manner, that his driver made a mistake that was arguably less forgivable.

#2056 PretentiousBread

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:56

So in order to defend Button, you've taken the position of attacking Hamilton instead. Nothing if not consistant!

PS- 20 years ago none of them would have been able to take half the lines they do through corners these days. Track limits? There's no penalty for going beyond them.


Indeed. Notice how Massa has dropped the car clumsily several times this year, but drove almost inch perfectly at Monaco. You drive to the track's limits, that's just how it is.

#2057 PretentiousBread

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:58

The car that appeared at Australia was ok wasn't it?

The question is was the (untested) car that it suddenly mutated into at Barcelona done as a result of drivers feedback or the designers panicking.


Sure, they 'panicked' their way into designing the fastest car at the best test track in the world.

#2058 tifosiMac

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:01

Tbh I don't think it's unreasonable to point out to a Hamilton fan, not necessarily as clear thinking as yourself, who criticised Button in a very derogatory manner, that his driver made a mistake that was arguably less forgivable.

As a fan of both drivers I was more concerned about Button complete lack of pace for the entire weekend. One driver was the fastest on track and the other was struggling for grip. Getting overtaken by Vettel who had a post qualifying set up change and was at that point on brand new tyres is not the incident we should be questioning IMO. I think this years McLaren can be the fastest out there when the set up is judged correctly but there appears to be a very fine line. Button is known to be slightly more fussy than Lewis on set up so I think we saw a bad weekend for all concerned on that side of the garage. There is no doubt about it that McLaren have seriously underperformed this season. The drivers have performed as we expect IMO.

#2059 as65p

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:32

Did Hamilton himself not correct Lee McKenzie on the BBC when she said he had a 'faultless race' up until his retirement? Lewis criticized that mistake himself and took total responsibility for it. Something so minor, yet facts are ignored as we've come to expect here. :rolleyes:

EDIT: http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20197997


Well, very good of him, then.

In case you didn't notice, I don't argue with Hamilton but with people slagging Button for being overtaken by a faster RB while closing their eyes before Hamiltons mistake.

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#2060 as65p

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:42

So in order to defend Button, you've taken the position of attacking Hamilton instead. Nothing if not consistant!


Well, as you are very consistant in misinterpreting me.

In order to defend Button I tried to add perspective by pointing at others mistakes. Just read again to what degree JB is slagged for a what can't even be classed as mistake in the traditional sense.

Oh wait, I think I already know your reply, you're not interested in reading that. Which makes you lack perspective as far as the discussion is concerned. Only ever caring for Hamilton related posts can have it's downsides, you know. :wave:

#2061 as65p

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:50

I do admire your increasingly desperate and inventive angles from which to detract from Hamilton.


Detract by pointing out a simple fact that everyone saw, Hamilton himself owned up for and nobody can deny? Reality is a bitch, ee?

#2062 tifosiMac

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:06

Well, very good of him, then.

In case you didn't notice, I don't argue with Hamilton but with people slagging Button for being overtaken by a faster RB while closing their eyes before Hamiltons mistake.

Hamilton's harshest critic is himself and its very rare he will spend an entire interview without throwing in some criticism of something he has done in a race. I think Button's weekend in general is worthy of criticism because quite frankly it was poor. That may have not been entirely Jenson's fault of course but one slip from Lewis where he went slightly wide and rode the curb was minuscule in comparison to his team mate who was struggling with grip and generally driving a car that handled totally the opposite to Hamilton's. The incident with Vettel is not worthy of criticism I agree. Vettel had a very different car to the one that he qualified in and was at that point on new tyres. It was inevitable he would pass Button. It was a weekend where one McLaren driver delivered and the other one didn't. Button suggested that in his post race interview and its something McLaren need to work hard to find a solution to IMO.

#2063 Gareth

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:28

Believe me, I wasn't happy when Button failed to deny Vettel of the podium. Yet still... it happens, being overtaken by a faster, at worst equal fast car on better tyres.

A driver doesn't deserve to be bashed into the ground for it.

I'm a Hamilton fan, and I thought JB's defence was fine. He held on for several laps against a faster car on faster tyres, with rejigged gearing to aid overtaking and with two helpings of DRS 'push to pass'.

Completely agree with both of you.

Jenson's weekend was a pretty poor one, IMO, but that was because of his qualy and his race pace compared to what was possible in that car. No need to bring the defence vs Vettel into it. I actually thought Jenson held on longer than I would have expected, and took the sensible decision when Vettel pulled off the move - I thought the defense was one of the better parts of his race.

http://m.guardian.co...mp;type=article

"It works really well for Lewis, and works really well for me at times."

#2064 Burtros

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:58

Interesting comments from Jenson in the article, and also pretty restrianed from Lewis.

I hope to god Jensons not just talking crap in saying that he doesnt like this years car. It'd hopefully explain a lot because this year he has been way below par for what I would expect from him.

I dont think 2012 is an acurate barrometer for how much better Lewis is than Jenson.

As for this Jenson letting Vettel through to easy, we effectively have world media, world journalists, the reigning double world champion all saying it was a good battle, with JB doing well. On the other hand, we have a few Lewis Hamilton fans with a pretty strong dislike for JB saying he was rubbish... I think the question is why do they bother posting that sort of crap? Its a total discredit to the Hamilton fan club on here. An embarrasment.

#2065 maverick69

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:09

Interesting comments from Jenson in the article, and also pretty restrianed from Lewis.

I hope to god Jensons not just talking crap in saying that he doesnt like this years car. It'd hopefully explain a lot because this year he has been way below par for what I would expect from him.

I dont think 2012 is an acurate barrometer for how much better Lewis is than Jenson.

As for this Jenson letting Vettel through to easy, we effectively have world media, world journalists, the reigning double world champion all saying it was a good battle, with JB doing well. On the other hand, we have a few Lewis Hamilton fans with a pretty strong dislike for JB saying he was rubbish... I think the question is why do they bother posting that sort of crap? Its a total discredit to the Hamilton fan club on here. An embarrasment.


JB himself said he was rubbish....... and quite frankly he was given the latent speed in the car. You don't have to be a fan of anyone to realize that.

But yes - it's a convenient time to **** him with the numpty stick...... and I'm more than sure the same would happen from certain quarters if the roles were reversed.


#2066 Burtros

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:20

JB himself said he was rubbish....... and quite frankly he was given the latent speed in the car. You don't have to be a fan of anyone to realize that.

But yes - it's a convenient time to **** him with the numpty stick...... and I'm more than sure the same would happen from certain quarters if the roles were reversed.


Great. Only I was quite obviously only talking abhout a 7-8 lap period of the race where Button was defending from Vettel and calling the assesment some are making of that particular battle 'Rubbish', rather than referring to anyones race as rubbish. Why have you just boldfaced a tiny part (not even a complete sentance!!) of my post and taken it out of context completely?

Edited by Burtros, 06 November 2012 - 12:23.


#2067 maverick69

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:28

Great. Only I was quite obviously only talking abhout a 7-8 lap period of the race where Button was defending from Vettel and calling the assesment some are making of that particular battle 'Rubbish', rather than referring to anyones race as rubbish. Why have you just boldfaced a tiny part (not even a complete sentance!!) of my post and taken it out of context completely?


Sorry. I took it as you were talking about the whole race/qualy. Probably because I haven't taken any notice of the Pass-Gate argument going on because Vettel was always going to get him with his better gearing and newer soft tyers.

#2068 Rinehart

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:54

If i'm biased, what does that make you, brainwashed? You're in a tiny, tiny minority if you truly believe the points difference between them is in any way, shape or form an accurate reflection of their relative performances. Why do you find it so laughable? Unless you have the memory of a goldfish there's nothing remotely unbelievable about those totals.


I'm sorry but your calculation is fan-powered nonsense. The only objective being to give Lewis the highest possible total and then self proclaim it "conservative" as if that gives it any credibility.

Just a few points:

1. Where do you credit OTHER drivers with the same woulda coulda shoulda that benefited Hamiltion and harmed them, e.g. Alonsos crash in Spa or Vettels retirement in Valencia?

2. Crediting Hamilton with points lost in two-to-tango crashes... pffff, he found for position with Maldonado, he could have conceded and secured points.

3. SC cost in Australia. Pfff, a consequence of where he was in the race at the time.

And so on. Basically I am not for a minute saying Hamilton doesn't deserve to be credited with far more points than Button, let alone Alonso and Vettel this season (so stop inventing the enemy). Its the grossly biased conclusion that just reeks of "trying to hard" you come to that I continually object to.

There is a strong case to put Hamilton well ahead of Button and in the hunt for the title without all the creativity. Just stop there. With the creativity your just trying too hard to make what should be a really easy and strong case to make and it ends up being ridiculous and the point is lost.

#2069 skidmarks

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:56

I actually felt that JB defended quite robustly against a faster Vettel, and knew when the game was up. He did the right thing in trying to gain as many points as he could rather than fighting tooth and nail.


I have quite a different view of how well he performed in the car overall during the race, which is to say, he was disappointing. Much like a large part of the season from my view. Jenson makes a large issue about how he couldn't get the tires to work for him. Well, neither could Lewis at first. We saw that in the opening laps where he botched the corner and ran wide because he hadn't applied the lessons he learned during FP and Quali.

But he recovered and Lewis didn't just get the softs working due to setup. He also changed his driving style to get them to heat up better. So given Jenson's experience, why can't he apply the same approach? Is he really so rigid in his approach to driving a F1 car? Is that really the mark of a great F1 driver?




#2070 PretentiousBread

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:10

I'm sorry but your calculation is fan-powered nonsense. The only objective being to give Lewis the highest possible total and then self proclaim it "conservative" as if that gives it any credibility.

Just a few points:

1. Where do you credit OTHER drivers with the same woulda coulda shoulda that benefited Hamiltion and harmed them, e.g. Alonsos crash in Spa or Vettels retirement in Valencia?

2. Crediting Hamilton with points lost in two-to-tango crashes... pffff, he found for position with Maldonado, he could have conceded and secured points.

3. SC cost in Australia. Pfff, a consequence of where he was in the race at the time.

And so on. Basically I am not for a minute saying Hamilton doesn't deserve to be credited with far more points than Button, let alone Alonso and Vettel this season (so stop inventing the enemy). Its the grossly biased conclusion that just reeks of "trying to hard" you come to that I continually object to.

There is a strong case to put Hamilton well ahead of Button and in the hunt for the title without all the creativity. Just stop there. With the creativity your just trying too hard to make what should be a really easy and strong case to make and it ends up being ridiculous and the point is lost.


Read what i say, I only included mechanical failures/operational errors. NOT strategic errors and NOT racing incidents, even if the driver was blameless. I didn't proclaim it as conservative either, that was Tomnokoe who did that which his totals, which did include such things. Despite cutting those things out, which are harder to quantify, these were still the totals I came to. The fact that you still see these totals as 'fan powered nonsense' shows either how forgetful you've been or how deluded you are. I would ask you to total them up yourself and see what you come to, but I know you'll act like you're taking a moral high ground by not doing so, which is convenient.

EDIT: My totals are only a direct comparison between JB and LH's mechanical/operational problems across the season, not anyone elses. As it is a direct comparison between only the two drivers, it's unneccessary and frankly impossible to do this for all 24 drivers.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 06 November 2012 - 13:29.


#2071 ZooL

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:17

People say Button's only positive was that he defended well vs Vettel.

The reality was that he undid all the excellent defending when he got caught napping and Vettel made the move from quite far back.
Button himself said he was surprised.

Basically Button went to Bed. He didn't manage a sustained defence until the end of the race.

Tyres is an excuse - degredation was very low, Alonso was going faster and faster.

It's now 2 races in a row Button has been overtaken by his rivals:

Hamilton last race
Vettel this race.

It's a worrying trend when he goes toe-to-toe, unable to hide behind his alternate strategies (like Perez). McLaren backed the wrong horse, Button is not what they think he is. It was silly to give him as much money as Hamilton. They should have bargained hard with Button and the savings should then have been given to Hamilton to make him stay.
This strategy incompetence is being demonstrated throughout the team: from backing the wrong horse to operational errors that has littered the season.

Edited by ZooL, 06 November 2012 - 13:19.


#2072 skidmarks

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:21

Basically Button went to Bed. He didn't manage a sustained defence until the end of the race.


To be fair, it takes a LOT of mental concentration and skill to defend for more than a handful of laps against a faster car. I remember Hamilton giving us a master class against Webber in 2009 and in 2011 on how to do that. And also again Kimi this year. In truth, it would be a real struggle to name more than one or two drivers who could do that for a sustained period of time.

I feel that people are being far too harsh on Button for this.




#2073 Burtros

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:17

Sorry. I took it as you were talking about the whole race/qualy. Probably because I haven't taken any notice of the Pass-Gate argument going on because Vettel was always going to get him with his better gearing and newer soft tyers.


No worries:)

My assesment of Buttons whole weekend wouldnt be much higher than yours TBH.

#2074 speng

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:32

Interesting comments from Jenson in the article, and also pretty restrianed from Lewis.

I hope to god Jensons not just talking crap in saying that he doesnt like this years car. It'd hopefully explain a lot because this year he has been way below par for what I would expect from him.
I dont think 2012 is an acurate barrometer for how much better Lewis is than Jenson.

As for this Jenson letting Vettel through to easy, we effectively have world media, world journalists, the reigning double world champion all saying it was a good battle, with JB doing well. On the other hand, we have a few Lewis Hamilton fans with a pretty strong dislike for JB saying he was rubbish... I think the question is why do they bother posting that sort of crap? Its a total discredit to the Hamilton fan club on here. An embarrasment.

Button:
“There's nothing to fall back on and say 'This is the reason why we didn't win in 2012',” he added


#2075 speng

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:35

Interesting comments from Jenson in the article, and also pretty restrianed from Lewis.

I hope to god Jensons not just talking crap in saying that he doesnt like this years car. It'd hopefully explain a lot because this year he has been way below par for what I would expect from him.

I dont think 2012 is an acurate barrometer for how much better Lewis is than Jenson.
As for this Jenson letting Vettel through to easy, we effectively have world media, world journalists, the reigning double world champion all saying it was a good battle, with JB doing well. On the other hand, we have a few Lewis Hamilton fans with a pretty strong dislike for JB saying he was rubbish... I think the question is why do they bother posting that sort of crap? Its a total discredit to the Hamilton fan club on here. An embarrasment.

So where would place the blame for Button failure to get the tyres to correct operating temp and maintaining that?
where would you place the failure to only be able to go fast when the car is balanced.

#2076 stevesingo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:48

So where would place the blame for Button failure to get the tyres to correct operating temp and maintaining that?


The designers. They have had enough data from two seasons to understand haw much energy JB generates through his inputs to then design the car appropriatly.

Lewis Hamilton. His data set is far larger and therefore far mor influential in the design assumptions being made by the designers when developing the concept of the designs.

I mentioned this in the MP4-27 thread sometime ago, but it must have been too sensible to even recieve a comment. I'm sure the LH love ins will make fun of it, despite it alluding to a sensible R&D strategy.

where would you place the failure to only be able to go fast when the car is balanced.


That one falls on JB's shoulders.

#2077 Buttoneer

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:52

If you come to a consensus on this question, you might want to let the team know, because they seem foxed.

#2078 Burtros

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:55

So where would place the blame for Button failure to get the tyres to correct operating temp and maintaining that?
where would you place the failure to only be able to go fast when the car is balanced.


I would say the blame lies with Button, but it'd be an educated guess as I dont know for sure. What your point though?

All I have said is that I dont believe the gap this year is representative of the true gap between them. Im not going into why that gaps there at this stage.

Edited by Burtros, 06 November 2012 - 14:56.


#2079 speng

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:56

The designers. They have had enough data from two seasons to understand haw much energy JB generates through his inputs to then design the car appropriatly.

Lewis Hamilton. His data set is far larger and therefore far mor influential in the design assumptions being made by the designers when developing the concept of the designs.

I mentioned this in the MP4-27 thread sometime ago, but it must have been too sensible to even recieve a comment. I'm sure the LH love ins will make fun of it, despite it alluding to a sensible R&D strategy.



That one falls on JB's shoulders.

So Button is not adaptable as the top drivers then .

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#2080 Burtros

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 15:03

So Button is not adaptable as the top drivers then .


Wait wait wait!

You have asked a question no one on here can awnser, you know that I hope?

So any awnsers are likley to be quite incorrect at worst and based on guesswork at best?

Therefore, any conclusions you try and draw from those awnsers are going to be..... well....... errrr.... whats the damn word im looking for?...... Flimsy? or Weak?

I'll go with Weak. Your conclusion is weak based on the evidence it is drawn from.

Edited by Burtros, 06 November 2012 - 15:04.


#2081 BillBald

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 15:26

If you come to a consensus on this question, you might want to let the team know, because they seem foxed.


They seem pretty confused on strategy as well, but they are just too proud to ask for advice. :)



#2082 Burtros

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 15:32

They seem pretty confused on strategy as well, but they are just too proud to ask for advice. :)


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

The thought of McLaren coming on here and asking for Strategy advice!!! And even more funny than that is really, we couldnt be much worse than whomever they have doing it anyway!

#2083 BillBald

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 16:28

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

The thought of McLaren coming on here and asking for Strategy advice!!! And even more funny than that is really, we couldnt be much worse than whomever they have doing it anyway!


And I suspect most of us would do it completely free of charge!



#2084 speng

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 16:30

Wait wait wait!

You have asked a question no one on here can awnser, you know that I hope?

So any awnsers are likley to be quite incorrect at worst and based on guesswork at best?

Therefore, any conclusions you try and draw from those awnsers are going to be..... well....... errrr.... whats the damn word im looking for?...... Flimsy? or Weak?

I'll go with Weak. Your conclusion is weak based on the evidence it is drawn from.

:lol: I am Responding to your answers. thank you

Edited by speng, 06 November 2012 - 16:37.


#2085 MP422

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 17:25

People say Button's only positive was that he defended well vs Vettel.

The reality was that he undid all the excellent defending when he got caught napping and Vettel made the move from quite far back.
Button himself said he was surprised.

Basically Button went to Bed. He didn't manage a sustained defence until the end of the race.

Tyres is an excuse - degredation was very low, Alonso was going faster and faster.

It's now 2 races in a row Button has been overtaken by his rivals:

Hamilton last race
Vettel this race.

It's a worrying trend when he goes toe-to-toe, unable to hide behind his alternate strategies (like Perez). McLaren backed the wrong horse, Button is not what they think he is. It was silly to give him as much money as Hamilton. They should have bargained hard with Button and the savings should then have been given to Hamilton to make him stay.
This strategy incompetence is being demonstrated throughout the team: from backing the wrong horse to operational errors that has littered the season.


Bingo !!!...... but the points gap over 3 seasons..... :drunk:


#2086 WitnessX

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 18:11

As a fan of both drivers I was more concerned about Button complete lack of pace for the entire weekend. One driver was the fastest on track and the other was struggling for grip. Getting overtaken by Vettel who had a post qualifying set up change and was at that point on brand new tyres is not the incident we should be questioning IMO. I think this years McLaren can be the fastest out there when the set up is judged correctly but there appears to be a very fine line. Button is known to be slightly more fussy than Lewis on set up so I think we saw a bad weekend for all concerned on that side of the garage. There is no doubt about it that McLaren have seriously underperformed this season. The drivers have performed as we expect IMO.

Does "the entire weekend" include FP1 to FP3? IN FP1 he was 2nd, 3rd and 2nd quickest respectively in the sessions, He managed to do the quickest high fuel run in FP2.

Were his lap times so bad in the race or was it because he was in traffic? don't forget that after he overtook Moldonado he his lap time dropped and he started catching Alonso before he pitted. He was also effectively being held up by Alonso after the first pit-stop session.

With the terminal speed the car had the only way he would be able to overtake anybody on track was as a result of a large tyre advantage. Being a one stop and little degradation his finishing position was always going to be roughly that of his position at the end of lap one.

The real problem was in Q3 specificaly sector 3, the "twisty" part of the track.
Sector comparison LH/JB:
1: -0.084s
2: -0.095s
3: -0.515s

However in the race with some fuel in sector 3 becomes Buttons best sector (!). I can only assume that taking out fuel in qualifying meant that the tyres were not being worked optimally.


#2087 peroa

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 18:18

Does "the entire weekend" include FP1 to FP3? IN FP1 he was 2nd, 3rd and 2nd quickest respectively in the sessions, He managed to do the quickest high fuel run in FP2.

Were his lap times so bad in the race or was it because he was in traffic? don't forget that after he overtook Moldonado he his lap time dropped and he started catching Alonso before he pitted. He was also effectively being held up by Alonso after the first pit-stop session.

With the terminal speed the car had the only way he would be able to overtake anybody on track was as a result of a large tyre advantage. Being a one stop and little degradation his finishing position was always going to be roughly that of his position at the end of lap one.

The real problem was in Q3 specificaly sector 3, the "twisty" part of the track.
Sector comparison LH/JB:
1: -0.084s
2: -0.095s
3: -0.515s

However in the race with some fuel in sector 3 becomes Buttons best sector (!). I can only assume that taking out fuel in qualifying meant that the tyres were not being worked optimally.

His S3 in the race sucked, he was consistently slower in S3 than Alonso, that's why he couldn't do anything about him.

Edited by peroa, 06 November 2012 - 18:19.


#2088 WitnessX

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 18:31

...

But he recovered and Lewis didn't just get the softs working due to setup. He also changed his driving style to get them to heat up better. So given Jenson's experience, why can't he apply the same approach? Is he really so rigid in his approach to driving a F1 car? Is that really the mark of a great F1 driver?

Did Lewis change his driving style to heat them up better?

Everything I've heard so far leads me to believe that his driving style with his preferred settings are inherent match to the tyres. I remember last year calls from his engineers asking him to cool down the tyres.

Buttons problems started with the upgrade at Barcelona. I doubt that Lewis suddenly consciously changed his style at Barcelona, he just went out qualifying like he normally does.

#2089 WitnessX

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:04

His S3 in the race sucked, he was consistently slower in S3 than Alonso, that's why he couldn't do anything about him.

The point I was making is the comparative improvement to qualifying.

Here are the best sector times of the race, judge yourself where Buttons best S3 time "sucked" or not:
http://184.106.145.7.....tor Times.pdf

Button was within DRS distance behind him from lap 30 to the safety car.

The problem was not sector 3. The problem was that with the higher speed Alonso was opening a gap on the two straights (sector 2), which Button had to regain back through sector 3 and sector 1.

He could not do anything about him because of the higher speed of Alonso's car.

Edited by WitnessX, 06 November 2012 - 19:05.


#2090 H2H

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:12

Button 637 points in 56 races.

Hamilton 632 points in 56 races.

Lewis had a lot of bad luck this season, but Jenson had also bad luck and in the long run it tends to smooth out.

So a 5 points differences after 56 races is practically nill. While Lewis might have left the stronger impression due to his 2012 campaign after the bad 2011 season both drivers scored as equals.

Even if we see 50 points in the last two races from one and 0 from the other it will have been a close run.

Edited by H2H, 06 November 2012 - 19:13.


#2091 Peter Perfect

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:14

Did Lewis change his driving style to heat them up better?

Everything I've heard so far leads me to believe that his driving style with his preferred settings are inherent match to the tyres. I remember last year calls from his engineers asking him to cool down the tyres.

Buttons problems started with the upgrade at Barcelona. I doubt that Lewis suddenly consciously changed his style at Barcelona, he just went out qualifying like he normally does.

I must admit I hadn't heard anything about Hamilton changing his style either (at least significantly). Button certainly has (he had to!) and a change to Hamiltons preferred brake material also seems to have helped. Fingers crossed next year McLaren have a car that's got a wider operating window.

#2092 bauss

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:17

Button 637 points in 56 races.

Hamilton 632 points in 56 races.

Lewis had a lot of bad luck this season, but Jenson had also bad luck and in the long run it tends to smooth out.

So a 5 points differences after 56 races is practically nill. While Lewis might have left the stronger impression due to his 2012 campaign after the bad 2011 season both drivers scored as equals.

Even if we see 50 points in the last two races from one and 0 from the other it will have been a close run.


nonsense...nuff said

#2093 stevesingo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:19

People say Button's only positive was that he defended well vs Vettel.

The reality was that he undid all the excellent defending when he got caught napping and Vettel made the move from quite far back.
Button himself said he was surprised.

Basically Button went to Bed. He didn't manage a sustained defence until the end of the race.

Tyres is an excuse - degredation was very low, Alonso was going faster and faster.

It's now 2 races in a row Button has been overtaken by his rivals:

Hamilton last race
Vettel this race.

It's a worrying trend when he goes toe-to-toe, unable to hide behind his alternate strategies (like Perez). McLaren backed the wrong horse, Button is not what they think he is. It was silly to give him as much money as Hamilton. They should have bargained hard with Button and the savings should then have been given to Hamilton to make him stay.
This strategy incompetence is being demonstrated throughout the team: from backing the wrong horse to operational errors that has littered the season.



Tyres: Degredation was low, but if you really think about (don't hurt yourself) ambient and track temperatures drop throughout the race as it starts in the day and finishes at night. What has been JB's achilles heal this season? Insufficient tyre temps. Think about it! Lowering ambient temps, lowering track temps, reduced fuel load (therefore tyre loads) and JB's driving style all adds up to a continued lowering of the tyre temps. Low tyre temps=lower grip. Simples.

Toe-to-toe: Is this the same JB who passed both of the above toe-to-toe only to be subsequently passed by Alonso's faster in a straight line Ferrari and LH with DRS.

Bingo !!!...... but the points gap over 3 seasons..... :drunk:


See above.


Does "the entire weekend" include FP1 to FP3? IN FP1 he was 2nd, 3rd and 2nd quickest respectively in the sessions, He managed to do the quickest high fuel run in FP2.

Were his lap times so bad in the race or was it because he was in traffic? don't forget that after he overtook Moldonado he his lap time dropped and he started catching Alonso before he pitted. He was also effectively being held up by Alonso after the first pit-stop session.

With the terminal speed the car had the only way he would be able to overtake anybody on track was as a result of a large tyre advantage. Being a one stop and little degradation his finishing position was always going to be roughly that of his position at the end of lap one.

The real problem was in Q3 specificaly sector 3, the "twisty" part of the track.
Sector comparison LH/JB:
1: -0.084s
2: -0.095s
3: -0.515s

However in the race with some fuel in sector 3 becomes Buttons best sector (!). I can only assume that taking out fuel in qualifying meant that the tyres were not being worked optimally.



His S3 in the race sucked, he was consistently slower in S3 than Alonso, that's why he couldn't do anything about him.


Early in the 2nd stint JB was being held up. The reason S3 was his slowest in comparison to Alonso was that JB caught up time in S1 & S2 with DRS and lost in S3 due to dirty air.

But as the temps dropped out of JB's tyres he lost performance comparative to Alonso.



Did Lewis change his driving style to heat them up better?

Everything I've heard so far leads me to believe that his driving style with his preferred settings are inherent match to the tyres. I remember last year calls from his engineers asking him to cool down the tyres.

Buttons problems started with the upgrade at Barcelona. I doubt that Lewis suddenly consciously changed his style at Barcelona, he just went out qualifying like he normally does.


That is the BINGO, just as others have had the BINGO moment, Maldonado and Rosberg for two.

Edited by MightyMoose, 06 November 2012 - 20:13.
Removed: You have a deep seated hatred of JB. Please don't post shit. Have an informed debate, it is enlightening.


#2094 peroa

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:21

The point I was making is the comparative improvement to qualifying.

Here are the best sector times of the race, judge yourself where Buttons best S3 time "sucked" or not:
http://184.106.145.7.....tor Times.pdf

Button was within DRS distance behind him from lap 30 to the safety car.

The problem was not sector 3. The problem was that with the higher speed Alonso was opening a gap on the two straights (sector 2), which Button had to regain back through sector 3 and sector 1.

He could not do anything about him because of the higher speed of Alonso's car.

There's one S3 on the sheet, from 55 done in the race.
At the time he was behind Alonso he was setting good S1 and S2 but couldn't match him in S3, he was always some 0.2, 0.3, 0.4 away.

#2095 peroa

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:28

I must admit I hadn't heard anything about Hamilton changing his style either (at least significantly). Button certainly has (he had to!) and a change to Hamiltons preferred brake material also seems to have helped. Fingers crossed next year McLaren have a car that's got a wider operating window.

Q. (Paolo Ianieri - La Gazzetta dello Sport) Lewis, yesterday you were struggling more with the option tyres and this is why you were also explaining your difficult session. Do you think you have solved the problem?

LH: Yeah, I just changed my technique a bit, in terms of warming them up and then from the previous race when we struggled in Q3 on the option tyres particularly in P3 in India, I think it was, we used the method that we improved there, which seemed to have helped this weekend, which I am sure other people are doing. It's nothing special, it's just with tyre temperatures and pressures and other things, but it worked, they worked really well.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103998

#2096 thesham01

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:42

Button 637 points in 56 races.

Hamilton 632 points in 56 races.

Lewis had a lot of bad luck this season, but Jenson had also bad luck and in the long run it tends to smooth out.

So a 5 points differences after 56 races is practically nill. While Lewis might have left the stronger impression due to his 2012 campaign after the bad 2011 season both drivers scored as equals.

Even if we see 50 points in the last two races from one and 0 from the other it will have been a close run.


I'm wasting my time saying this, but here we go;

Why don't you make up a list of the luck? Instead of saying something of which you have no idea, and no facts to back up.

There's one side of this debate willing to swap facts/lists, there's one that refuses to.

Edited by thesham01, 06 November 2012 - 19:45.


#2097 Peter Perfect

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:03

Q. (Paolo Ianieri - La Gazzetta dello Sport) Lewis, yesterday you were struggling more with the option tyres and this is why you were also explaining your difficult session. Do you think you have solved the problem?

LH: Yeah, I just changed my technique a bit, in terms of warming them up and then from the previous race when we struggled in Q3 on the option tyres particularly in P3 in India, I think it was, we used the method that we improved there, which seemed to have helped this weekend, which I am sure other people are doing. It's nothing special, it's just with tyre temperatures and pressures and other things, but it worked, they worked really well.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103998

Yes, I did read that but I didn't interpret it as a significant change to his style that would have effected his entire season (ala Button) more a tweak.

#2098 PretentiousBread

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:05

Button 637 points in 56 races.

Hamilton 632 points in 56 races.

Lewis had a lot of bad luck this season, but Jenson had also bad luck and in the long run it tends to smooth out.

So a 5 points differences after 56 races is practically nill. While Lewis might have left the stronger impression due to his 2012 campaign after the bad 2011 season both drivers scored as equals.

Even if we see 50 points in the last two races from one and 0 from the other it will have been a close run.


Posted Image

Edited by PretentiousBread, 06 November 2012 - 20:06.


#2099 as65p

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:06

I'm wasting my time saying this, but here we go;

Why don't you make up a list of the luck? Instead of saying something of which you have no idea, and no facts to back up.

There's one side of this debate willing to swap facts/lists, there's one that refuses to.


Well, there are people who like making up lists and others that don't.

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#2100 Lazy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:15

Well, there are people who like making up lists and others that don't.


Come on, everybody knows he didn't get those points in the right way ;)