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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#2201 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 13:38

It really is ridiculous to keep the farce going that Button deserves to be ahead:

Ahead how?

1) To judge how good a driver is off the pitstops he receives is laughable.

Even if the driver misses his mark or arrives at an angle, or revs the engine a little and unbalances the car? Do we know to what extent any of the bad pitstops have been caused by that?

2) To then try and say that Hamilton wrecks his car more; well nearly all the issues Hamilton has faced (fuel pump, gearbox), Button has also. Meaning its a mechanical issue, not driver.

3) Then we have roll bar failures, well I think its quite obvious that these are non-fault issues.

Same points really, but how sure are you that the driver has no impact (pardon the pun) on these areas? Would you agree or disagree with the argument that pushing a car further up onto the kerbs creates more stresses on car components, notwithstanding the fact that the car ought to be built to withstand that?

If there was a part with a microfracture, for example, would going harder over the kerbs me more or less likely to cause it to fail catastrophically?

4) To then grab hold of the idea that its 'team and driver defines the driver' is nonsense, obviously. We are here to judge the driver, to try and wade through the noise and see how good both have actually been in the last 3 years.

I agree that we are here to judge the driver, but I don't agree that you can divorce the driver from his team of engineers. The driver says where the car under or over steers and the engineers then try and work out how to cure that using the various adjustment mechanisms available to them. They work in an environment of trust and we've seen how often that relationship has been questioned in 2011.

Perhaps you think it reflects the real gap between them, but I do not believe for one minute that the difference between the drivers in Spain, for example, was truly representative of their respective abilities as drivers. There was something else in play. You may disagree.

5) To think that luck definitely evens out over 3 years is plain ignorant.

I'd say that it just manifests itself in different ways, some more catastrophic than others.

To sensible people, of which 99% here are, it is clear that minus all the noise, Hamilton has performed better but has been handicapped.

This is the writing off of different views to your own as insane again, but in this case I can agree that Hamilton has performed better, but I don't agree that your new points table is anything except superficial guesswork.


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#2202 Gareth

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 13:59

Good post H2H :up:

Picking up on a couple of points:

F1 is one of the sport events where the use of statistics to evaluate the performance is considerable harder then in basket.

Completely agree. It's like the difference between baseball and NFL, in terms of the use of stats, IMO.

So there are good reasons to use your own mind and the opinon of others and 'experts' to form your personal conclusion. So why should you try to make us of a base rate like points? I will post that when I have more time.

I look forward to hearing. For what it's worth, I would certainly not advocate ignoring the points. Whilst they may be imperfect, they are a very valuable piece of information in terms of coming to conclusions on performance. Possibly the most valuable.

For example, in the context of this debate, I think that any suggestion that Hamilton has destroyed Button is very easily countered by the points table.

I would advocate (and have advocated) not solely looking at the points table.

It is a little amusing that the tables apparently cannot be trusted when comparing Hamilton with Button, but how easily (some) Hamilton fans will trot out that Hamilton is better than Alonso based on their time together at McLaren as Hamilton finished above Alonso in the table (even though they ended on equal points, but LH technically won due to race victories).

What's good for the goose...

I think I've been consistent on here*, despite being a Hamilton fan, in saying I think Alonso has had the edge on Hamilton. I've always thought Hamilton had the potential to be as good as Alonso, and possibly better, but that he hadn't realised that potential (regardless of the 07 points table). I think '12 is the first time Hamilton has begun to live up to that potential (I think he and Alonso have both been equally excellent this season)

But I don't want to derail the thread into that particular discussion - point is, my gander is being treated as per my goose. The '07 points table doesn't, IMO, prove Hamilton is as good as Alonso, just as the '10-'12 points table doesn't do the same re: Hamilton and Button.

[*I honestly think a search through my posting history will bear this out, but look forward to being proven wrong :D ]

Maybe I have misinderstood where those arguments are coming from. I believe it is fair to say (and obvious if you read the threads) that those who support Hamilton have been vocally dismissive of Button's ability from day 1 and continue to use silly adjectives to describe him as a person and his ability as a driver. Perhaps it is my bias, but I don't see many comments from the other side dismissing Hamilton, in fact it looks to me like there's clear respect for him and a feeling of pride that Button has done so well. There are notable exceptions on both sides, obviously.

I agree on the approach taken to Button by many in the thread, and it's a shame. It colours the whole rest of the debate, and makes it harder.

IMO, Button has performed excellently these past 3 seasons. Better than certainly I expected him to. Part of the motivation for the move was expressed as taking on a new challenge and he's risen to that. His stock as a driver, and the view of him when looking back on his career, will only be the better IMO for these past 3 seasons.

It's a pity that some of those who support Hamilton struggle with that. There's no need to put Button down to raise Hamilton up (in fact, quite the reverse is true IMO). And I can see the "fantasy points" as seeming as a continuation of that theme: here, look, Hamilton would have destroyed Button by [X] points if it weren't for woulda, coulda, shoulda. So I can see why they get such push back.

Equally, though, I don't think that makes the concept valueless. And where the push back reaches the extreme of "actual points = the only barometer", then IMO it's gone too far (albeit, in the context of the crap pushed Button's way in this thread, it's hardly surprising that should occur).

It is, though, equally frustrating as a Hamilton fan to suffer what seems like the double whammy of watching the guy perform brilliantly, get nothing out of it through no fault of his own, and then be told that because of it Button's equalled him. Yes, all drivers suffer from these things. Yes, you are likely to notice it more when it happens to your guy. But there's a reason why James Allen is writing pieces such as the ones he did: it has happened more to Hamilton this season than to most - and that includes Button despite the fact they drive the same car. And it was similar in 2010. Being told this simply hasn't occurred is a frustrating experience, to be honest. In contrast, being told you can't possibly reliably quantify it, is perfectly understandable.


To try and bring this to some form of conclusion, my thoughts would be:

1. The points table is an excellent piece of information on how drivers have performed, particularly team mates.

2. There's no doubt that Hamilton and Button have been closely matched over their time together - both have their different strengths and weaknesses, and overall as a package there is certainly no gulf in class between the drivers. That's bourne out both by the points table and my impression of their performance.

3. The points table, whilst one of the best pieces (if not the best piece) of information, isn't the be all and end all. In paticular this is because F1 is a team sport - points do not solely measure driver performance (team and car and what other idiot drivers around you do, are also measured). Between team mates, these differences will be much less pronounced, but can and do still exist.

4. My impression of their time together is that Hamilton has been more affected by these differences, and so whilst the points table shows them evens, I think the edge (note, edge - see point 2) has been with Hamilton over the 3 years. This certainly is not an objective view. Whilst I'd like to think all should share it, because I am a genius who is always right, I have to reluctantly accept I am not a genius who is always right and understand that there will be plenty who, quite fairly, disagree.

I have sometimes wondered whether it might be worth starting a 'scorecard' thread purely to discuss how one should score the differences. Are there points of comparison which can be univerally accepted as resonable by most and applied then to different driver pairings to give a reasonable skill assessment? Sort of like the Castrol figures try to do but relying less on the results and create independance from the car.

It'd be fun to do, but I think the goal in bold would be very, very difficult!

#2203 03011969

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 14:06

Whats you opinion on it? Who has been a better performer over the 3 years?

Too marginal to call. If both are at their best I would rate Hamilton better. But - with a little conjecture - I would say he is too often affected mentally by external issues whilst Button serenely carries on regardless. It is perhaps classic hare and tortoise.

3 years really is long enough to highlight any gaping chasms and there is not one.

But Button really isn't a bad driver and Lewis shouldn't be ashamed to be on Button's level over the course of a season or three.

Edited by 3011969, 07 November 2012 - 14:06.


#2204 thesham01

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 14:13

Ahead how?

Even if the driver misses his mark or arrives at an angle, or revs the engine a little and unbalances the car? Do we know to what extent any of the bad pitstops have been caused by that?

Same points really, but how sure are you that the driver has no impact (pardon the pun) on these areas? Would you agree or disagree with the argument that pushing a car further up onto the kerbs creates more stresses on car components, notwithstanding the fact that the car ought to be built to withstand that?

If there was a part with a microfracture, for example, would going harder over the kerbs me more or less likely to cause it to fail catastrophically?


I agree that we are here to judge the driver, but I don't agree that you can divorce the driver from his team of engineers. The driver says where the car under or over steers and the engineers then try and work out how to cure that using the various adjustment mechanisms available to them. They work in an environment of trust and we've seen how often that relationship has been questioned in 2011.

Perhaps you think it reflects the real gap between them, but I do not believe for one minute that the difference between the drivers in Spain, for example, was truly representative of their respective abilities as drivers. There was something else in play. You may disagree.

I'd say that it just manifests itself in different ways, some more catastrophic than others.


This is the writing off of different views to your own as insane again, but in this case I can agree that Hamilton has performed better, but I don't agree that your new points table is anything except superficial guesswork.


When I said ahead I am talking about the total points for the 3 years together.

Okay, so if we say that Hamilton is at fault for the bad pit-stops through missing his mark and breaking his cars because he drives over more kerbs, then why has it been only this season that it has affected him really? I would argue because he has been unlucky. The fact that there has been only one year in which Hamilton has been seriously plagued by car failures/bad pit-stops, the other 5 years he has not, proves that he is not at fault for the issues. It is a freak occurrence, ie luck.

As for the point about Spain and something else in play, ie Button being handicapped, you'll notice I don't include set-up issues as luck. Buttons issues this year have been down to a lack of a skillset capable of turning on the tyres, or setting the car up to get the best from them. That is most certainly within his control.

My list is trying to define things out of their control, or at least things are that out of their control to such an extent we cannot possibly blame them, or degrade them as drivers because of it. I presume certain posters here also blame the drivers then for the design of the car, as its their feedback that goes into it. Which, logically, then means they should get credit for designing the car. Do the drivers ever get this credit? When is the last time you heard a driver named as a designer of a car? You don't, because the design is out of their control to such an extent it would be silly to credit them. Same with sticky wheel-nuts and engine failures.

To start saying Hamilton has performed worse than Button, and deserves to be behind after 3 years because of bad pit-stops and car failures is, in my opinion, ridiculous. It is desperate.

Edited by thesham01, 07 November 2012 - 14:15.


#2205 bub

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 14:32

Too marginal to call. If both are at their best I would rate Hamilton better. But - with a little conjecture - I would say he is too often affected mentally by external issues whilst Button serenely carries on regardless. It is perhaps classic hare and tortoise.

3 years really is long enough to highlight any gaping chasms and there is not one.

But Button really isn't a bad driver and Lewis shouldn't be ashamed to be on Button's level over the course of a season or three.


I wonder how many times that has actually happened compared to how many times Button has been unable to find a decent setup/underperformed for whatever reason.

#2206 thesham01

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 14:37

Too marginal to call. If both are at their best I would rate Hamilton better. But - with a little conjecture - I would say he is too often affected mentally by external issues whilst Button serenely carries on regardless. It is perhaps classic hare and tortoise.

3 years really is long enough to highlight any gaping chasms and there is not one.

But Button really isn't a bad driver and Lewis shouldn't be ashamed to be on Button's level over the course of a season or three.


There are probably more people who have walked on the moon, than think they are on the same level. The majority of them post here.

Edited by thesham01, 07 November 2012 - 14:37.


#2207 PretentiousBread

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 14:44

Although I agree with plenty of views expressed in the past couple of pages, the level of unnecessarily overladen theorising going on at the moment is utterly cringeworthy. If we debated all the obvious things in life to this degree then we couldn't be certain of anything at all. It is quite simple - Hamilton has lost a much greater potential number of points than JB has that were through no fault of their own over the last 3 years. That's all i'm saying. It's not disputable, shouldn't be open for debate. Only thing disputable is exactly how big the figure is. I see no reason to pain myself entertaining contrary views to that when I am 100% completely certain that they're wrong, and not only wrong, but only purported because of extreme bias - I don't even believe those who give contrary opinions to this believe it themselves, rather just that their vested interest in protecting their driver is so deep that it compels them to do so. Sure, i'll get told i'm biased as a Hamilton fan, but I've yet to hear of a neutral ever claim that Button has lost a greater number of potential points through no fault of his own. I'll leave it at that, and I hope we won't have to continue to share theses on how much a spade is a bloody spade.

#2208 bub

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 14:47

Although I agree with plenty of views expressed in the past couple of pages, the level of unnecessarily overladen theorising going on at the moment is utterly cringeworthy. If we debated all the obvious things in life to this degree then we couldn't be certain of anything at all. It is quite simple - Hamilton has lost a much greater potential number of points than JB has that were through no fault of their own over the last 3 years. That's all i'm saying. It's not disputable, shouldn't be open for debate. Only thing disputable is exactly how big the figure is. I see no reason to pain myself entertaining contrary views to that when I am 100% completely certain that they're wrong, and not only wrong, but only purported because of extreme bias - I don't even believe those who give contrary opinions to this believe it themselves, rather just that their vested interest in protecting their driver is so deep that it compels them to do so. Sure, i'll get told i'm biased as a Hamilton fan, but I've yet to hear of a neutral ever claim that Button has lost a greater number of potential points through no fault of his own. I'll leave it at that, and I hope we won't have to continue to share theses on how much a spade is a bloody spade.


I think a lot of people feel the same way. Good post :up:

#2209 03011969

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 14:52

There are probably more people who have walked on the moon, than think they are on the same level. The majority of them post here.

Ah now - the lunar missions. One of my other passions.

I'd definitely put Pete Conrad (Apollo 12 Commander) on at least the same level as level as Lewis, and TBH you really could almost all* 12 of those who walked on the lunar surface at at *least* the level of top F1 drivers. Experimental test pilots, Navy pilots who land on aircraft carriers at night etc. Read about how calm Neil Armstrong stayed on his Gemini mission (where faulty circuits sent them tumbling end-over-end when docked) and I think you'd struggle to find an F1 driver to match that.

*OK, Harrison Schmitt in Apollo 17 was a geologist, so perhaps I'd leave him out.

#2210 thesham01

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 14:55

I loved this thread, even in 2011. In fact 2011 was my most active on here. But to be honest it has turned into a bit of a farce.

I just hope Hamilton finishes ahead on points for the 3 years, so we don't have to listen to 'Button beat him on total points' in 10 years time, when everyone will have forgotten the details, as a reason why they are level performance wise. Or worse; Button is better (which is a very real possibility if McLaren happen to build a rocketship in the next few years, and Mercedes don't, meaning Button has more WDC's than Hamilton). And it will be trotted out again and again and again.

I think Austin will be close, it seems very much like India where the car is a huge factor and so team-mates will be close together. Brazil is usually good for Button and not so good for Hamilton, so there is a very real possibility Button will finish ahead after 3 years.

Edited by thesham01, 07 November 2012 - 14:56.


#2211 03011969

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 15:02

I just hope Hamilton finishes ahead on points for the 3 years, so we don't have to listen to 'Button beat him on total points' in 10 years time, when everyone will have forgotten the details, as a reason why they are level performance wise. Or worse; Button is better (which is a very real possibility if McLaren happen to build a rocketship in the next few years, and Mercedes don't, meaning Button has more WDC's than Hamilton). And it will be trotted out again and again and again.

Quite, but, again, (many) Lewis fans having been using the same line against Alonso for 5 years. They can't have it both ways. Not with any credibility.

I agree the points table is not a definitive record of skill, talent etc. but it's the best we have so don't be surprised when people use it, whether it supports 'your' driver or is against him.

#2212 thesham01

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 15:11

Quite, but, again, (many) Lewis fans having been using the same line against Alonso for 5 years. They can't have it both ways. Not with any credibility.

I agree the points table is not a definitive record of skill, talent etc. but it's the best we have so don't be surprised when people use it, whether it supports 'your' driver or is against him.


Hamilton performed at least an equal level, and in all honesty; on a higher level for much of the season. And any talk of Alonso getting done by the team is, of course, nonsense. Plus even if he was, he was the maker of his own downfall, so most definitely within his control. Therefore, Hamilton deserves to get credit for 2007, and universally does regardless of the fact they drew.

However, this season is it different. Hamilton has had factors out of his control effecting him, costing him points. It is a completely different situation.

But of course I wouldn't expect certain fans to take that into account. Whatever it is about Button and this thread, it attracts people who love judging books by their covers.

Edited by thesham01, 07 November 2012 - 15:12.


#2213 inca_roads

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 15:15

Quite, but, again, (many) Lewis fans having been using the same line against Alonso for 5 years. They can't have it both ways. Not with any credibility.

I agree the points table is not a definitive record of skill, talent etc. but it's the best we have so don't be surprised when people use it, whether it supports 'your' driver or is against him.


I think that might be because Hamilton and Alonso had similar levels of bad luck. If Alonso had DNF''d or had problems a ridiculous number of times, I'd like to think there wouldn't be many LH fans screaming "victory" if he only beat him on countback.

#2214 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 15:21

When I said ahead I am talking about the total points for the 3 years together.

Okay, so if we say that Hamilton is at fault for the bad pit-stops through missing his mark and breaking his cars

No, you lost me right there because it misrepresents my point completely. That and my point about Button's setup issues.

I'm saying that you cannot know to what extent these things are influenced by the driver or the team of engineers working for him. You are reading that as if I am trying to take away this unknown from Hamilton to blame the driver but make it certain for Button that we blame the team.

We have observed how Button is sensitive to setup - it is a weakness and he struggles with that. But that doesn't mean it is down to him to create balance in the car - the engineers should be able to do that using his feedback. Is his feedback perhaps unclear? We don't and can't know.

The same for the pitstops (of both drivers). Brawn used to drill Button on pitstop after pitstop to make sure that he could stop on his marks within a tiny margin of error because it was easier for the car to get there than it is to shuffle 22 men. I have no doubt at all that even if the driver were in some part to blame they would have been protected by the team management.

That means we are left with trying to interpret the superficial evidence in front of us that driver x had a slower stop than driver y and that it's bad luck. Certainly having a gun fail is impossible to avoid but how do we know that a threded wheel nut is not because the gun man had to lean over at an awkward angle etc?

#2215 thesham01

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 15:38

No, you lost me right there because it misrepresents my point completely.


Well I'll stop you there, and ask you to read further on in my post to the part about the fact this is the only season Hamilton has been affected so badly by these things. It is a freak occurrence, and therefore luck. If it was happening every season then you would have a point in arguing about the extent we know or don't know. You say we don't know to what extent the drivers have blame over these things, I say we can use the evidence at our disposal to rule certain things out. One of them is blaming Hamilton:

The pit-stops happened at the start of the season only, the mechanical failures at the end. Both mechanical issues and pit-stops effected Button as well, therefore evidence that it is not just driver related. Yes it doesn't definitively prove that Hamilton is not to blame, but it goes a long way to dis-proving it.

The fact the team also changed its entire pit-stop routine (or however you want to call it), down to new pit-guns, would strongly imply they felt it was a team issue and nothing to do with the driver. The fact it has also been improved since those changes strongly implies it was a team issue and not a driver one.

You can't just keep saying 'we don't know the extent....', we know we don't know the extent, but as reasoning humans we can rule out things by weighing up the evidence. I hope you agree that the weighing up of the evidence strongly suggest Hamilton is faultless?

(I'm not trying to argue he is definitely faultless, I am trying to argue that he is blameless to such extent we can rule him out)

EDIT: Actually the error strewn pitstops were a result of the new changes, were they not? Again evidence that Hamilton is more than likely faultless.

Edited by thesham01, 07 November 2012 - 15:44.


#2216 PretentiousBread

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 15:43

Well I'll stop you there, and ask you to read further on in my post to the part about the fact this is the only season Hamilton has been affected so badly by these things. It is a freak occurrence, and therefore luck. If it was happening every season then you would have a point in arguing about the extent we know or don't know. You say we don't know to what extent the drivers have blame over these things, I say we can use the evidence at our disposal to rule certain things out. One of them is blaming Hamilton.

The pit-stops happened at the start of the season only, the mechanical failures at the end. Both mechanical issues and pit-stops effected Button as well, therefore evidence that it is not just driver related. Yes it doesn't definitively prove that Hamilton is not to blame, but it goes a long way to dis-proving it.

The fact the team also changed its entire pit-stop routine (or however you want to call it), down to new pit-guns, would strongly imply they felt it was a team issue and nothing to do with the driver. The fact it has also been improved since those changes strongly implies it was a team issue and not a driver one.

You can't just keep saying 'we don't know the extent....', we know we don't know the extent, but as reasoning humans we can rule out things by weighing up the evidence. I hope you agree that the weighing up of the evidence strongly suggest Hamilton is faultless?

(I'm not trying to argue he is definitely faultless, I am trying to argue that he is blameless to such extent we can rule him out)


Totally agreed, based on some of the logic applied in this thread barely a single criminal conviction could ever be made.

#2217 BernieEc

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 15:50

Well I'll stop you there, and ask you to read further on in my post to the part about the fact this is the only season Hamilton has been affected so badly by these things. It is a freak occurrence, and therefore luck. If it was happening every season then you would have a point in arguing about the extent we know or don't know. You say we don't know to what extent the drivers have blame over these things, I say we can use the evidence at our disposal to rule certain things out. One of them is blaming Hamilton:

The pit-stops happened at the start of the season only, the mechanical failures at the end. Both mechanical issues and pit-stops effected Button as well, therefore evidence that it is not just driver related. Yes it doesn't definitively prove that Hamilton is not to blame, but it goes a long way to dis-proving it.

The fact the team also changed its entire pit-stop routine (or however you want to call it), down to new pit-guns, would strongly imply they felt it was a team issue and nothing to do with the driver. The fact it has also been improved since those changes strongly implies it was a team issue and not a driver one.

You can't just keep saying 'we don't know the extent....', we know we don't know the extent, but as reasoning humans we can rule out things by weighing up the evidence. I hope you agree that the weighing up of the evidence strongly suggest Hamilton is faultless?

(I'm not trying to argue he is definitely faultless, I am trying to argue that he is blameless to such extent we can rule him out)

EDIT: Actually the error strewn pitstops were a result of the new changes, were they not? Again evidence that Hamilton is more than likely faultless.


:up: agreed

#2218 paulrobs

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 16:32

A dozen of my current beliefs..

1. Button needed a big car advantage in order to win a WDC and always will do.

2. Hamilton did not need a massive car advantage to win a WDC and will always be there or therabouts whatever he's driving.

3. Button doesn't make too many mistakes because he never pushes the car hard enough to make a mistake, he'd prefer to take it easier and then blame the setup/balance/grip/oversteer/pace/etc.

4. Hamilton is always pushing the car hard and probably makes more on-track mistakes than Button, he prefers to drive the wheels off the car rather than take it easy.

5. Button has the narrowest operating window of any current F1 driver and is seemingly unable or unwilling to modify his style to race a less than perfect car.

6. Button is very eloquent outside of the car whereas Hamilton is very eloquent inside the car (in his driving), where it matters in fact for a racing driver.

7. Hamilton knows (in his mind) that he is the fastest driver in F1.

8. Button knows that he is not the fastest driver in F1.

9. Hamilton will qualify better in next year's Merc than Button will qualify in next year's McLaren.

10. Hamilton will win more races in next year's Merc than Button will in next year's McLaren.

11. Ross Brawn and Hamilton will build a formidable partnership that will result in at least 2 WDCs for Hamilton.

12. Martin Whitmarsh will not be McLaren team principal by the end of the 2013 season and not by choice either.

#2219 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 16:35

Well I'll stop you there, and ask you to read further on in my post to the part about the fact this is the only season Hamilton has been affected so badly by these things. It is a freak occurrence, and therefore luck. If it was happening every season then you would have a point in arguing about the extent we know or don't know. You say we don't know to what extent the drivers have blame over these things, I say we can use the evidence at our disposal to rule certain things out. One of them is blaming Hamilton:

The pit-stops happened at the start of the season only, the mechanical failures at the end. Both mechanical issues and pit-stops effected Button as well, therefore evidence that it is not just driver related. Yes it doesn't definitively prove that Hamilton is not to blame, but it goes a long way to dis-proving it.

The fact the team also changed its entire pit-stop routine (or however you want to call it), down to new pit-guns, would strongly imply they felt it was a team issue and nothing to do with the driver. The fact it has also been improved since those changes strongly implies it was a team issue and not a driver one.

You can't just keep saying 'we don't know the extent....', we know we don't know the extent, but as reasoning humans we can rule out things by weighing up the evidence. I hope you agree that the weighing up of the evidence strongly suggest Hamilton is faultless?

(I'm not trying to argue he is definitely faultless, I am trying to argue that he is blameless to such extent we can rule him out)

EDIT: Actually the error strewn pitstops were a result of the new changes, were they not? Again evidence that Hamilton is more than likely faultless.

I am certain that there are events this year for which we can say that Hamilton is faultless. I cannot disagree with the premise because for the opposite to be true Hamilton would have to be incompetent. You appear to be intent on arguing from the point of view that I believe him to be incompetent, and also appear to be arguing the point of view that Button is ("you'll notice I don't include set-up issues as luck...That is most certainly within his control")

Your post doesn't indicate that you have read and understood the point I made because you're still arguing against something I have not said. It's disappointing, really, beause I did read yours, but because of the flawed understanding of what I said there was very little value in addressing everything you wrote. I am not blaming Hamilton. I am not denying that he has suffered from bad luck. I am not denying that it appears he has had more bad luck than Button. I AM saying that this is a superficial view. We don't know exactly how many points have been lost to pure out-of-their-hands issues and do not seem to be willing to acknowledge or understand the extent to which these things are, or are not, within the control of different people within the team. I include the driver within that definition of 'team'.

Totally agreed, based on some of the logic applied in this thread barely a single criminal conviction could ever be made.

A criminal conviction cannot be made unless the evidence leads one to believe that the matter is beyond reasonable doubt. It is, I agree, beyond reasonable doubt that Hamilton has lost more points than Button. Without further evidence, I do not believe that it is beyond reasonable doubt that there should be a 115 point swing to Hamilton based on him being innocent of all blame in the matters outlined in The List and the remainder of any given event running smoothly as if those things had never happened. Arguably, it might even be more. Too many leaps of faith for me, but then I'm not trying to justify any outrageous claims.

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#2220 BernieEc

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 16:48

A dozen of my current beliefs..

9. Hamilton will qualify better in next year's Merc than Button will qualify in next year's McLaren.

10. Hamilton will win more races in next year's Merc than Button will in next year's McLaren.

11. Ross Brawn and Hamilton will build a formidable partnership that will result in at least 2 WDCs for Hamilton.

12. Martin Whitmarsh will not be McLaren team principal by the end of the 2013 season and not by choice either.


Please tell me where this crystal ball is so I can have a look myself. consider this post marked!

#2221 03011969

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 16:59

A dozen of my current beliefs..

1. Button needed a big car advantage in order to win a WDC and always will do.

2. Hamilton did not need a massive car advantage to win a WDC and will always be there or therabouts whatever he's driving.

3. Button doesn't make too many mistakes because he never pushes the car hard enough to make a mistake, he'd prefer to take it easier and then blame the setup/balance/grip/oversteer/pace/etc.

4. Hamilton is always pushing the car hard and probably makes more on-track mistakes than Button, he prefers to drive the wheels off the car rather than take it easy.

5. Button has the narrowest operating window of any current F1 driver and is seemingly unable or unwilling to modify his style to race a less than perfect car.

6. Button is very eloquent outside of the car whereas Hamilton is very eloquent inside the car (in his driving), where it matters in fact for a racing driver.

7. Hamilton knows (in his mind) that he is the fastest driver in F1.

8. Button knows that he is not the fastest driver in F1.

9. Hamilton will qualify better in next year's Merc than Button will qualify in next year's McLaren.

10. Hamilton will win more races in next year's Merc than Button will in next year's McLaren.

11. Ross Brawn and Hamilton will build a formidable partnership that will result in at least 2 WDCs for Hamilton.

12. Martin Whitmarsh will not be McLaren team principal by the end of the 2013 season and not by choice either.

So, erm, I take it you're not a big fan of Button then?

#2222 stanga

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:10

Well I'll stop you there, and ask you to read further on in my post to the part about the fact this is the only season Hamilton has been affected so badly by these things. It is a freak occurrence, and therefore luck. If it was happening every season then you would have a point in arguing about the extent we know or don't know. You say we don't know to what extent the drivers have blame over these things, I say we can use the evidence at our disposal to rule certain things out. One of them is blaming Hamilton:

The pit-stops happened at the start of the season only, the mechanical failures at the end. Both mechanical issues and pit-stops effected Button as well, therefore evidence that it is not just driver related. Yes it doesn't definitively prove that Hamilton is not to blame, but it goes a long way to dis-proving it.

The fact the team also changed its entire pit-stop routine (or however you want to call it), down to new pit-guns, would strongly imply they felt it was a team issue and nothing to do with the driver. The fact it has also been improved since those changes strongly implies it was a team issue and not a driver one.

You can't just keep saying 'we don't know the extent....', we know we don't know the extent, but as reasoning humans we can rule out things by weighing up the evidence. I hope you agree that the weighing up of the evidence strongly suggest Hamilton is faultless?

(I'm not trying to argue he is definitely faultless, I am trying to argue that he is blameless to such extent we can rule him out)

EDIT: Actually the error strewn pitstops were a result of the new changes, were they not? Again evidence that Hamilton is more than likely faultless.


Great post. Totally agree.

#2223 revlec

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 18:27

LOL at this thread..
Since 2-1(over 3 seasons till now) is not enough, people have to resort to the total of points over 3 seasons.
_

Every season should be considered like a single "set" like it happens in Tennis(games[in this case, races] are within sets).
Anyone who is serious, will not consider the total points over their time their to rate their repective performances.
Every season is a single event, and should not be influenced by the previous or influence the next.
____

Example: (numbers are random)

Season 1 HAM 254(1st in the WDC) BUT 250(2nd in the WDC)
season 2 HAM 130(5th inthe WDC) BUT 210(2nd in the WDC)
season 3 HAM 265(1st in the WDC) BUT 252(2nd in the WDC)

At the end of the match(3 seasons),we will have:
HAM 649(2xWDC) BUT 712(3x2nd)
So it will be 2-1 for HAM, altough BUT will have more points in total.

You can see, overall points is a useless and pointless argument. Keep using your calculators. :wave:

Edited by revlec, 07 November 2012 - 18:28.


#2224 Lazy

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 20:06

It'd be fun to do, but I think the goal in bold would be very, very difficult!


Good post, I'd agree with most of that and the bits I don't agree with I probably would if I pressed myself.

#2225 Lazy

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 20:21

No, you lost me right there because it misrepresents my point completely. That and my point about Button's setup issues.

I'm saying that you cannot know to what extent these things are influenced by the driver or the team of engineers working for him. You are reading that as if I am trying to take away this unknown from Hamilton to blame the driver but make it certain for Button that we blame the team.

We have observed how Button is sensitive to setup - it is a weakness and he struggles with that. But that doesn't mean it is down to him to create balance in the car - the engineers should be able to do that using his feedback. Is his feedback perhaps unclear? We don't and can't know.

The same for the pitstops (of both drivers). Brawn used to drill Button on pitstop after pitstop to make sure that he could stop on his marks within a tiny margin of error because it was easier for the car to get there than it is to shuffle 22 men. I have no doubt at all that even if the driver were in some part to blame they would have been protected by the team management.

That means we are left with trying to interpret the superficial evidence in front of us that driver x had a slower stop than driver y and that it's bad luck. Certainly having a gun fail is impossible to avoid but how do we know that a threded wheel nut is not because the gun man had to lean over at an awkward angle etc?


Exactly.

#2226 Peter Perfect

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 20:24

A dozen of my current beliefs..

1. Button needed a big car advantage in order to win a WDC and always will do.

2. Hamilton did not need a massive car advantage to win a WDC and will always be there or therabouts whatever he's driving.

3. Button doesn't make too many mistakes because he never pushes the car hard enough to make a mistake, he'd prefer to take it easier and then blame the setup/balance/grip/oversteer/pace/etc.

4. Hamilton is always pushing the car hard and probably makes more on-track mistakes than Button, he prefers to drive the wheels off the car rather than take it easy.

5. Button has the narrowest operating window of any current F1 driver and is seemingly unable or unwilling to modify his style to race a less than perfect car.

6. Button is very eloquent outside of the car whereas Hamilton is very eloquent inside the car (in his driving), where it matters in fact for a racing driver.

7. Hamilton knows (in his mind) that he is the fastest driver in F1.

8. Button knows that he is not the fastest driver in F1.

9. Hamilton will qualify better in next year's Merc than Button will qualify in next year's McLaren.

10. Hamilton will win more races in next year's Merc than Button will in next year's McLaren.

11. Ross Brawn and Hamilton will build a formidable partnership that will result in at least 2 WDCs for Hamilton.

12. Martin Whitmarsh will not be McLaren team principal by the end of the 2013 season and not by choice either.

Time for a Dogma quote...

I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea, changing a belief is trickier.



#2227 D.M.N.

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 20:27

Some people do think it is all about statistics when it is not. As with everything, it is about outside factors. To just say X is ahead of Y on points without bringing in outside factors and considering other matters is absurd.

If you're to use points as an argument then you need some secondary evidence, for example Qualifying performances or problems that each individual driver had across the three seasons in races.

I don't have a strong opinion on the matter, but the total amount of points is not the final answer. Statistically, yes, but discussion wise? No.

#2228 thesham01

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 20:47

I am certain that there are events this year for which we can say that Hamilton is faultless. I cannot disagree with the premise because for the opposite to be true Hamilton would have to be incompetent. You appear to be intent on arguing from the point of view that I believe him to be incompetent, and also appear to be arguing the point of view that Button is ("you'll notice I don't include set-up issues as luck...That is most certainly within his control")

Your post doesn't indicate that you have read and understood the point I made because you're still arguing against something I have not said. It's disappointing, really, beause I did read yours, but because of the flawed understanding of what I said there was very little value in addressing everything you wrote. I am not blaming Hamilton. I am not denying that he has suffered from bad luck. I am not denying that it appears he has had more bad luck than Button. I AM saying that this is a superficial view. We don't know exactly how many points have been lost to pure out-of-their-hands issues and do not seem to be willing to acknowledge or understand the extent to which these things are, or are not, within the control of different people within the team. I include the driver within that definition of 'team'.


A criminal conviction cannot be made unless the evidence leads one to believe that the matter is beyond reasonable doubt. It is, I agree, beyond reasonable doubt that Hamilton has lost more points than Button. Without further evidence, I do not believe that it is beyond reasonable doubt that there should be a 115 point swing to Hamilton based on him being innocent of all blame in the matters outlined in The List and the remainder of any given event running smoothly as if those things had never happened. Arguably, it might even be more. Too many leaps of faith for me, but then I'm not trying to justify any outrageous claims.


Its you that hasn't understood, and I am confused why you must bring up me apparently not understanding as 'disappointing'.

You are saying that what we are looking at is only the surface, we won't know the real truth, and never will (due to the reasons you mentioned). I am saying while we might not be able to look inside McLaren to see the truth, we can go about dis-proving things, until the truth settles in front of us. The way I went about it was talking about the pit-stops and mechanical failures, and how this season is a freak for Hamilton, thereby going some way to looking past the surface by looking at the bigger picture and by using deductive reasoning.

I'm saying we can see past the surface if we look in the right places, and I have tried to point people to these places. Some people here refuse to look, and give the excuse; we will never know the absolute truth so why bother trying.

On top of that I said that while we will never know the absolute truth (agreeing with your original statement), we can (through deductive reasoning) know enough about the truth to say with enough certainty that Hamilton is blameless, while still understanding that we don't have any fundamental knowledge.

As for outrageous claims; I don't see how claiming Hamilton should be 100+ points ahead this year, in a season where he had 3 wins robbed from him, is outrageous.

Edited by thesham01, 07 November 2012 - 20:48.


#2229 robefc

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 20:48

Good post, I'd agree with most of that and the bits I don't agree with I probably would if I pressed myself.


Go on, do it! :D

#2230 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 23:32

Its you that hasn't understood, and I am confused why you must bring up me apparently not understanding as 'disappointing'.

It was intended as a compliment that I expected better.

I think we're at an impasse though because your post contains enough misunderstandings that it's clear there will be no real understanding let alone agreement. I am happy for you to blame me for the lack of clarity, if you wish.

You are saying that what we are looking at is only the surface, we won't know the real truth, and never will (due to the reasons you mentioned). I am saying while we might not be able to look inside McLaren to see the truth, we can go about dis-proving things, until the truth settles in front of us.

It won't be the 'truth' because you don't even know what variables there are let alone have the understanding or information to disprove them. At best it's an impression or concept.

I'm saying we can see past the surface if we look in the right places, and I have tried to point people to these places. Some people here refuse to look, and give the excuse; we will never know the absolute truth so why bother trying.

With 'some people' you mean me, of course, and it's not about a refusal to look, or even acknowledge what is apparently obvious for all of us, but the recognition that what we see is only part of it and that trying to attribute absolutes to the argument just clouds the issue. For that reason, allied with the fact that you persist in trying to push that as a valid concept or framework for discussion, means this is my last post on the point, you will probably be glad to know.

You insist that people are trying to argue Button has had MORE bad luck than Hamilton, but all I see is your insistence that this is happening and no evidence of it actually happening.

On top of that I said that while we will never know the absolute truth (agreeing with your original statement), we can (through deductive reasoning) know enough about the truth to say with enough certainty that Hamilton is blameless, while still understanding that we don't have any fundamental knowledge.

No, we can't, because deductive reasoning at least requires some inviolable truths or premises in order to work, and I don't see them here. We can deduce only that Hamilton appears to have lost points due to factors outside his control. You can see points disappear when a car fails from the lead of a race, but you cannot see that so clearly when it is a poor choice by his engineers, unless he tweets about it.

As for outrageous claims; I don't see how claiming Hamilton should be 100+ points ahead this year, in a season where he had 3 wins robbed from him, is outrageous.

No, I can see that.

#2231 speng

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 23:55

Well I'll stop you there, and ask you to read further on in my post to the part about the fact this is the only season Hamilton has been affected so badly by these things. It is a freak occurrence, and therefore luck. If it was happening every season then you would have a point in arguing about the extent we know or don't know. You say we don't know to what extent the drivers have blame over these things, I say we can use the evidence at our disposal to rule certain things out. One of them is blaming Hamilton:

The pit-stops happened at the start of the season only, the mechanical failures at the end. Both mechanical issues and pit-stops effected Button as well, therefore evidence that it is not just driver related. Yes it doesn't definitively prove that Hamilton is not to blame, but it goes a long way to dis-proving it.

The fact the team also changed its entire pit-stop routine (or however you want to call it), down to new pit-guns, would strongly imply they felt it was a team issue and nothing to do with the driver. The fact it has also been improved since those changes strongly implies it was a team issue and not a driver one.

You can't just keep saying 'we don't know the extent....', we know we don't know the extent, but as reasoning humans we can rule out things by weighing up the evidence. I hope you agree that the weighing up of the evidence strongly suggest Hamilton is faultless?

(I'm not trying to argue he is definitely faultless, I am trying to argue that he is blameless to such extent we can rule him out)

EDIT: Actually the error strewn pitstops were a result of the new changes, were they not? Again evidence that Hamilton is more than likely faultless.

Really good post

#2232 thesham01

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:18

It was intended as a compliment that I expected better.

I think we're at an impasse though because your post contains enough misunderstandings that it's clear there will be no real understanding let alone agreement. I am happy for you to blame me for the lack of clarity, if you wish.

It won't be the 'truth' because you don't even know what variables there are let alone have the understanding or information to disprove them. At best it's an impression or concept.

With 'some people' you mean me, of course, and it's not about a refusal to look, or even acknowledge what is apparently obvious for all of us, but the recognition that what we see is only part of it and that trying to attribute absolutes to the argument just clouds the issue. For that reason, allied with the fact that you persist in trying to push that as a valid concept or framework for discussion, means this is my last post on the point, you will probably be glad to know.

You insist that people are trying to argue Button has had MORE bad luck than Hamilton, but all I see is your insistence that this is happening and no evidence of it actually happening.

No, we can't, because deductive reasoning at least requires some inviolable truths or premises in order to work, and I don't see them here. We can deduce only that Hamilton appears to have lost points due to factors outside his control. You can see points disappear when a car fails from the lead of a race, but you cannot see that so clearly when it is a poor choice by his engineers, unless he tweets about it.

No, I can see that.



We'll have to agree to disagree so.

I think there is enough evidence out there to say with confidence Hamilton has been robbed of many points this season.

We'll never know the full story unfortunately, and I just hope Hamilton finishes ahead in the end.

#2233 senna da silva

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:15

McLaren offered Lewis to be the highest paid driver on the grid, a LOT more than Button, and I say that speaks volumes about who McLaren thinks is the better driver.
Its very plain to see who is the fastest driver in qualifying and race, Lewis! The rest of this thread is argument for arguments sake. Let it go Button fans, Lewis is obviously better, but Jenson now has McLaren, just hope they build him a fast and reliable car for 2013.

#2234 Kingshark

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:19

After almost 3 full seasons and 57 races as teammates. Jenson Button has scored 637 points and Lewis Hamilton 632 points. Interesting how people still believe that Hamilton is the best on the grid while Button is such an inferior driver to Lewis and an average Joe.

#2235 montoya

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:01

After almost 3 full seasons and 57 races as teammates. Jenson Button has scored 637 points and Lewis Hamilton 632 points. Interesting how people still believe that Hamilton is the best on the grid while Button is such an inferior driver to Lewis and an average Joe.


:rotfl:

If anyone look points scored so far as evidence, he is delusional... This season really revealed difference between 2 drivers, Button was trashed in both qualifying and race pace.

#2236 senna da silva

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:23

After almost 3 full seasons and 57 races as teammates. Jenson Button has scored 637 points and Lewis Hamilton 632 points. Interesting how people still believe that Hamilton is the best on the grid while Button is such an inferior driver to Lewis and an average Joe.


To quote Churchill "there are lies and there are damn lies and then there are statistics"!

#2237 moorsey

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:16

To quote Churchill "there are lies and there are damn lies and then there are statistics"!


One of the most valid statements ever made. :up:

#2238 Rinehart

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:35

You keep saying that. Yet we keep telling you we are only counting pitstops and car failures, quantifiable stuff.

You know what, I'm going to try and make a list, and post it here for all to discuss. Gonna take a while, but leave it with me.


Oh great, will your Button list be as ridiculous and biased as the Hamilton one. I guess it will but in an opposite way.

Your problem is simply that your memory is short. In 2011 Button beat Hamilton and lost far more points than Hamilton whilst doing it.

The only think you are achieving is to shout lounger and more often about more recent events and conclude you have won.

This is Hamiltons best and Buttons worst year at Mclaren but we are judging on 3 years. One of those Button won just as convincingly. REMEMBER!




#2239 Lazy

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:53

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
Donald Rumsfeld



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#2240 mclara

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:41

One of the most valid statements ever made. :up:


@ Rinehart. Please stop kid yourself. We also know that Lewis lost more points through mechanical Issues in 2010 aswell, which means that 2010 and 2011 pretty much evens itself out.
Then you can start counting DNF's in 2012...

#2241 ViMaMo

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:47

Going back a few years, Lewis fans were ecstatic when he 'beat' double world champion Alonso in his debut year. Lewis hasnt improved much years later. He is maybe a little more polished. Also looking at the past three years, Lewis has had his place rocked by Jenson torpedo.

1. Lewis has shown he has got no better than 2007. So its safe to say he is among the best drivers in F1.
2. Jenson has shown tremendous pace when he gets in sync with his car. But has failed to deliver when it wasnt to his liking. Thats his Achilles heel, which he probably will never be able to overcome. Does that place him among the best drivers in F1? No.



#2242 oligc94

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:08

Oh great, will your Button list be as ridiculous and biased as the Hamilton one. I guess it will but in an opposite way.

Your problem is simply that your memory is short. In 2011 Button beat Hamilton and lost far more points than Hamilton whilst doing it.

The only think you are achieving is to shout lounger and more often about more recent events and conclude you have won.

This is Hamiltons best and Buttons worst year at Mclaren but we are judging on 3 years. One of those Button won just as convincingly. REMEMBER!


No, because Hamilton has outpaced Button at almost every race this year, it could not be said that Jenson outpaced Hamilton in the same number of races last year.


#2243 thesham01

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:32

Oh great, will your Button list be as ridiculous and biased as the Hamilton one. I guess it will but in an opposite way.

Your problem is simply that your memory is short. In 2011 Button beat Hamilton and lost far more points than Hamilton whilst doing it.

The only think you are achieving is to shout lounger and more often about more recent events and conclude you have won.

This is Hamiltons best and Buttons worst year at Mclaren but we are judging on 3 years. One of those Button won just as convincingly. REMEMBER!


My memory has nothing to do with it. My list is very fair to Button.


Hamilton has beaten Button far more convincingly this year than Button beat him last year, and your thinking otherwise shows your biased thought.

#2244 thesham01

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:38

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
Donald Rumsfeld


Why are you so happy to credit Button with so many of his famous intangible attributes so? set-up, strategy, team player, tyre saver? Why were you so fast to award him Spa, when clearly we are not 100% certain what happened?

Button fans are now trying to imply Hamilton might be at fault because we don't know the full story, yet they were delighted to award Button countless things based on even less evidence.

This place stinks of hypocrisy and desperation.

#2245 Lazy

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:31

Why are you so happy to credit Button with so many of his famous intangible attributes so? set-up, strategy, team player, tyre saver? Why were you so fast to award him Spa, when clearly we are not 100% certain what happened?

Button fans are now trying to imply Hamilton might be at fault because we don't know the full story, yet they were delighted to award Button countless things based on even less evidence.

This place stinks of hypocrisy and desperation.


Indeed.

#2246 paulrobs

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:35

Please tell me where this crystal ball is so I can have a look myself. consider this post marked!


Happy to be measured against this at the end of next season :)

#2247 paulrobs

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:38

So, erm, I take it you're not a big fan of Button then?


I've posted some pretty nice things about Button and ackowledged that he has done way better than I expected. I also like to see him win.

#2248 paulrobs

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:39

Time for a Dogma quote...


Ideas/opinions then, not beliefs :up:

#2249 Rinehart

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:18

Not including stewards decisions, or strategy calls. Both are open to discussion on luck, but this is meant to be as quantifiable a list as possible. If a steward decision or a strategy call was so bad as it should make this list, then please throw it into the mix.

Incidents where Hamilton was ahead on track, only for McLaren to get Button ahead after the first round of pitstops (as has happened far, far more in Buttons favour than Hamiltons) are not included. Incidents like Monza 2011 where Button had the good fortune of Webber and Massa crashing in front of him are not included.

I also freely admit I can remember 2012 far better, so incidents like safety car costing a place (Aus 2012) is remembered, while an equal event in Buttons favour in, say, 2010 might be forgotten. Please correct me.

I'm sure there are some errors here, some missed botched pitstops, so please add them in.

2010

Spanish GP 2010: Hamilton punctures from 2nd. A bad McLaren pitstop cost Button a place, so cancels it out placed gained.
Hamilton +18

Monaco 2010: Button had engine overheat, but was outside points at time. Presumably would have gained places, but pace was poor that weekend (qualy 8th). I'll give him 8th finish.
Button +4

Hungary 2010: Hamilton retires from 4th, 12 points. Button gains 2 points.
Hamilton +12, Button -2

Spa 2010: Button loses 18 points through no fault of his own.
Button +18

Japan 2010: Hamilton gearbox change, and gearbox failure in race. Was in 4th at time of 3rd gear loss, lapping at the pace of the winner. Had it not been for gearbox change, then gearbox failure in race, he would have challenged for podium at worst.
Hamilton +5, Button -2



Hamilton +35, Button + 18
Hamilton +17


2011

Monaco 2011: Perez crash benefits Button, and hinders Hamilton, in qualy. Hard to quantify this one, so I'll leave it as it is, although I think its pretty clear Hamilton got unlucky.

Silverstone 2011: Button loses wheel. Qualified 5th, and had been over-taken by team-mate (who lay in 4th at race end). Massa finished next to Hamilton, but even so I think giving Button a 5th is fair seeing as he may have finished 6th or 4th.
Button +10

Germany 2011: Button was 6th when hydraulics cost him.
Button + 8

Japan 2011: Hamilton had a bad pitstop putting him behind Webber and Massa. He finished ahead of Massa anyway, but behind Webber, but Hamilton lost alot of time behind Massa. Webber also wreckied his chance at a fast lap in qualy. However its hard to quantify it, so I'll give nothing again.

India 2011: Hamilton taken out by Massa (the one and only clear cut faultless incident for Hamilton of 2011). Was for 5th, and he finished 7th, I'll give him 5th. Remember, if Button gets Spa, Hamilton gets this.
Hamilton +4

Brazil 2011: Hamilton retires with gearbox. 5th was possible.
Hamilton +10



Hamilton + 14, Button +18
Button +4


2012

Australia 2012: Hamilton lost a place due to safety car.
Hamilton +3

China 2012: Hamilton has gearbox penalty. Would have stayed ahead of Button otherwise.
Hamilton +3, Button -3

Bahrain 2012: Total of 22.2 seconds lost in pits. That time alone brings him up to 4th.
Hamilton +8

Spain 2012: McLaren mess up Hamiltons fuel.
Hamilton +21

Valencia 2012: Another bad pitstop cost Hamilton lead, and chance of podium. Bad pitstop brought him into Maldondos clutches, so that incident is forgotten. I'll give him 3rd.
Hamilton +15, Button -2

Germany 2012: Hamilton got a puncture. Given that his pace was similar to that of Buttons in qualy, 4th was definitely not out of the equation.
Hamilton +12

Spa 2012: Hamilton taken out by Grosjean. Pace not great, but at least anywhere between 3rd and 8th on offer. 6th given.
Hamilton +8

Italy 2012: Button robbed of 2nd/3rd. I'll give him 2nd.
Button +18

Singapore 2012: Hamilton gearbox cost him win.
Hamilton +25, Button -3

Japan 2012: Car failure cost Hamilton. Hard to quantify, so I'll leave it.

Korea 2012: Hamilton had car failure, and Button got taken out. I'll leave this as is.

Abu Dhabi 2012: Hamilton robbed of win.
Hamilton +25, Button -2



Hamilton +120, Button +8
Hamilton +112


---------------------------------



Total so far:

Hamilton +126

I think Button is 7 ahead now? So Hamilton should be 115 ahead by my count.



:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :eek: :eek: :eek: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Easily one of the funniest things I have ever read on the internet.

#2250 thesham01

thesham01
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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:26

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :eek: :eek: :eek: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Easily one of the funniest things I have ever read on the internet.


I'm guessing that means you have a similar list detailing these things? You must do if you have such strong opinions on it.

At the very least you will surely counter with something substantial, rather than just laughing at me? That is if you actually have thoughts of your own.

I won't hold my breath.

Edited by thesham01, 08 November 2012 - 14:27.