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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#2251 Gareth

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 15:26

115pts over 56 races is the equivelent of just over 1 race win per season. So even if the 115pts were accepted (I am not suggesting it should be*), it's still pretty close.

*I 100% agree with the following from Buttoneer:

It is, I agree, beyond reasonable doubt that Hamilton has lost more points than Button. Without further evidence, I do not believe that it is beyond reasonable doubt that there should be a 115 point swing to Hamilton based on him being innocent of all blame in the matters outlined in The List and the remainder of any given event running smoothly as if those things had never happened. Arguably, it might even be more. Too many leaps of faith for me



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#2252 kpchelsea

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 15:34

115pts over 56 races is the equivelent of just over 1 race win per season. So even if the 115pts were accepted (I am not suggesting it should be*), it's still pretty close.

*I 100% agree with the following from Buttoneer:

Well i guess its a win and fourth, Button comes out well because he clearly beat Hamilton in 2011 even though he did lose in 2010 and this year

#2253 Jeag

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 15:46

Jenson's been beaten pretty darn convincingly this year. Oh well, Lewis was always the more skilled driver but Jenson's put up a good 3 years against what many consider the best driver in the sport right now.
Jenson's stock has at least gone up I'd say from before seeing him at McLaren was not even believable.

Lewis to Mercedes?? Ooo that should be interesting to see. Lewis has destroyed Jenson and has been amazing this year in terms of driving ability so lets see how he stacks up against Nico in what will be a completely new car for Lewis.

Edited by Jeag, 08 November 2012 - 15:48.


#2254 jjcale

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:29

115pts over 56 races is the equivelent of just over 1 race win per season. So even if the 115pts were accepted (I am not suggesting it should be*), it's still pretty close.
....


See this is the problem with using stats as a guide ... it does not take much reductio to get to ad adsurdam

I prefer to just watch and enjoy...

Jenson's been beaten pretty darn convincingly this year. Oh well, Lewis was always the more skilled driver but Jenson's put up a good 3 years against what many consider the best driver in the sport right now.
Jenson's stock has at least gone up I'd say from before seeing him at McLaren was not even believable.


Its not complicated ... I dont see why a deeper analysis than this is necessary.

Edited by jjcale, 08 November 2012 - 18:30.


#2255 P123

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:35

1. Lewis has shown he has got no better than 2007. So its safe to say he is among the best drivers in F1.


2007 is constantly hyped as Hamilton's best season, yet to believe that is to ignore races such as Australia, Malaysia, Silverstone or Belgium where he was miles behind his teammate. Sure, in terms of race finishes he was still high up, but then again if you made it to the end in a Ferrari or McLaren you were vitually guaranteed a top 4 finish. In terms of driving I would put 2010 and 2012 above '07, and even possibly 2009.

#2256 jjcale

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:35

Time for a Dogma quote...


So good to see you once again.
I thought that you were hiding.
And you thought that I had run away.
Chasing the tail of dogma.
I opened my eye and there we were.
So good to see you once again
I thought that you were hiding from me.
And you thought that I had run away.
Chasing a trail of smoke and reason.

Tool - My Third Eye 1996

That's what's happened to this thread over past 5 pages or so...

#2257 PinkZepStones

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:02

I cant decide whether we're debating whether Jenson was a comfortable match for Lewis,


Or Jenson is just as good as Lewis......


One of them is entirely reasonable and the other is most certainly not.

#2258 ForzaGTR

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:20

I'm going to be bold and predict that Lewis will finish ahead of Jenson in the 2013 WDC standings.

#2259 Devero

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:31

One of the most valid statements ever made. :up:


Well, big hello from 2007 :wave: . Lewis then "trashed reigning double world champion while being a rookie" with 109-109, 4/4, 12/12 but with extra second place. The legend started there.
We saw an interesting twist of it last year and probably we will see a repeat this year.
But anyway, whatever happens in the final races of 2012, the statistics will label forever the fact of Jenson as equal driver to Lewis in the same car for 3 seasons in a row.

Enjoy! :lol: :drunk:

Edited by Devero, 08 November 2012 - 19:33.


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#2260 sopa

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:32

One thing is forgotten in The List. Button retired in Bahrain 2012 with a car problem, costing him a 6th place finish. He was closing on di Resta rapidly, who had worn tyres.

Personally I find it hard to believe Hamilton lost a win in Spain that everyone keeps mentioning. Remember, McLaren's race pace hasn't been as strong as qualifying pace. They used to lose positions during races, especially in the beginning of the season. I would give a P3 for Hamilton in Spain, behind Maldonado and Alonso.

Edited by sopa, 08 November 2012 - 19:35.


#2261 gricey1981

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:38

This thread goes around and around in circles!

Hamilton is quicker but for whatever reason Button is equal in points so at the very least you have to say that Button over 3 years has been as about as competitive as Hamilton was with Fred in his rookie year.

So kudos to JB your stock has risen and I think Lewis's has stayed the same. He probably is the fastest guy in F1 but for what ever reason, maybe its luck, hes too hard on the car or whatever that potential is not realised all the time and hence we have the situation we have now.



#2262 thesham01

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:46

2010
Hamilton +35, Button + 18
Hamilton +17

2011
Hamilton + 14, Button +18
Button +4

2012
Hamilton +120, Button +16 (6th place added)
Hamilton +104


Overall
Hamilton +117

#2263 ZooL

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:00

sham's analysis is actually not too far off what James Allen has concluded either. James Allen has estimated that Hamilton has lost 110 pts in 2012.

People can read James Allen's attempt here: http://www.jamesalle...lewis-hamilton/

Then there was the f1stats site that conducted a mid season analysis. I thought this was the most thorough of all of them. That piece can be read here:
F1 Stats mid season analysis
It covers all drivers but I will pick out the conclusions made regarding Hamilton vs Button as thats what this thread is about. Please note this was mid-season only, it will be interesting to see what it looks like at the end of the season:

* Lewis Hamilton lost a net 60 points due to mechanical failures and other misfortune.
* Jenson Button gained a net 10 points due to mechanical failures and other misfortune from his other competitors.
There was an estimated 111pts difference between Hamilton and Button.

In summary, thats 3 different pieces of analysis from thesham, f1stats and James Allen that come to the conclusion of a ball park figure that there is between 110-120 WDC points difference between Hamiton and Button this year.

People shouldn't get hung up on the exact figure - but it gives a feel to the size of the problem, a ball-park figure they call it, an idea of how many zero's to add. Whether we are talking about 1 pt, 10 pts, 100 pts or 1000 pts.
I think its fair to estimate the size of the problem description in this manner. This kind of analysis is done in many industries.

It's fair to conclude we are talking in the range of the 100 point mark.

Edited by ZooL, 08 November 2012 - 21:48.


#2264 BillBald

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:44

2010
Hamilton +35, Button + 18
Hamilton +17

2011
Hamilton + 14, Button +18
Button +4

2012
Hamilton +120, Button +16 (6th place added)
Hamilton +104


Overall
Hamilton +117


I'm not sure whether it's worth getting involved in this, but Jenson has consistently had poor strategies from McLaren this year.

For example, in Hungary he was running 3rd around the half-way point, Vettel was stuck behind him on options to Jenson's primes, all they had to do to stay ahead was leave Jenson out & pit him at the same time as Vettel, instead they pitted Jenson and put him behind Senna, at the same time releasing Vettel. To prove it was no fluke, they then did almost exactly the same in Japan, with Massa benefitting from their generosity.



#2265 ZooL

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:53

I'm not sure whether it's worth getting involved in this, but Jenson has consistently had poor strategies from McLaren this year.

For example, in Hungary he was running 3rd around the half-way point, Vettel was stuck behind him on options to Jenson's primes, all they had to do to stay ahead was leave Jenson out & pit him at the same time as Vettel, instead they pitted Jenson and put him behind Senna, at the same time releasing Vettel. To prove it was no fluke, they then did almost exactly the same in Japan, with Massa benefitting from their generosity.

Strategy has been out of scope of all the analyses. I agree with this because drivers alot of the time make their own calls to pit. I actually think this is one of Button's positive points - he is able to read the race and is renowned for making his own calls.

#2266 thesham01

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:54

I'm not sure whether it's worth getting involved in this, but Jenson has consistently had poor strategies from McLaren this year.

For example, in Hungary he was running 3rd around the half-way point, Vettel was stuck behind him on options to Jenson's primes, all they had to do to stay ahead was leave Jenson out & pit him at the same time as Vettel, instead they pitted Jenson and put him behind Senna, at the same time releasing Vettel. To prove it was no fluke, they then did almost exactly the same in Japan, with Massa benefitting from their generosity.


I agree that Button has had some poor strategies costing him potential points.

However, Hamilton has also had his fair share of them over the course of the 3 years. It is also no coincidence, I feel, that arguably Hamilton's worst year strategy wise was last year when he was back in the dog fight more, and likewise Button this year. Another reason I left anything like that out was because strategy is arguably in driver control (its not at all really, but certain Button fans have in the past argued it is as a way of making Button superior. It has stopped this season, unsurprisingly). Also the ability to make a poor strategy work or not is in the driver control (ie having the skill-set to over-take).

So it's best to leave strategy out, just like stewards decisions. They are too subjective. My list was meant to be as definitive as possible.

Edited by thesham01, 08 November 2012 - 21:56.


#2267 inca_roads

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 23:03

I'm going to be bold and predict that Lewis will finish ahead of Jenson in the 2013 WDC standings.


Where I looked, Button is 10/1 for the title next season, Hamilton 14/1. Perez 16/1, Rosberg 33/1.

So they can be added to the list of people who evidently don't see Button as anywhere near Hamilton's equal. No doubt they'll be labelled as fanboys too. Fanboys who enjoy losing potentially thousands of pounds, just for fun.

#2268 OO7

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 23:21

I'm going to be bold and predict that Lewis will finish ahead of Jenson in the 2013 WDC standings.

Olly, how accurate have your predictions been thus far?

#2269 BillBald

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 23:40

I agree that Button has had some poor strategies costing him potential points.

However, Hamilton has also had his fair share of them over the course of the 3 years. It is also no coincidence, I feel, that arguably Hamilton's worst year strategy wise was last year when he was back in the dog fight more, and likewise Button this year. Another reason I left anything like that out was because strategy is arguably in driver control (its not at all really, but certain Button fans have in the past argued it is as a way of making Button superior. It has stopped this season, unsurprisingly). Also the ability to make a poor strategy work or not is in the driver control (ie having the skill-set to over-take).

So it's best to leave strategy out, just like stewards decisions. They are too subjective. My list was meant to be as definitive as possible.


That's a pretty poor argument, I'm afraid. Just because some people in the past have made some kind of claim that you yourself admit to be false, you think you can get away with making the same claim. :confused:

In wet/dry conditions, it is possible for a driver to make a good or a bad call on when to switch tyres, that is quite simply the only time when drivers can make a difference to strategy. In a dry race, drivers do not have the necessary info. The most a driver can do is question the call, but if he delays too long while arguing about it, the opportunity which the pitlane have spotted will have gone. So the driver has to follow the instruction to pit, and at that point he is going to be busy doing the fastest possible inlap.

As far as overtaking is concerned, it usually seems to be on the tracks where it is most difficult to overtake, that McLaren produce the most stupid strategies. Maybe the pressure of needing to get it right scrambles their brains. Monaco and Valencia this year were also very bad for Jenson.



#2270 whitevisor

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 00:40

Jenson's been beaten pretty darn convincingly this year. Oh well, Lewis was always the more skilled driver but Jenson's put up a good 3 years against what many consider the best driver in the sport right now.
Jenson's stock has at least gone up I'd say from before seeing him at McLaren was not even believable.

Lewis to Mercedes?? Ooo that should be interesting to see. Lewis has destroyed Jenson and has been amazing this year in terms of driving ability so lets see how he stacks up against Nico in what will be a completely new car for Lewis.


IMO Button's stock had dropped really far because of 2012 alone. - Much slower in qualifying than last year, He is going past his prime, Weaker setup skills, and overall lack of adaptability was shown up this year.

And on the contrary Hamilton's stock has skyrocketed to higher heights. He seems to be even more complete than ever before.

Edited by whitevisor, 09 November 2012 - 00:41.


#2271 thesham01

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 00:46

That's a pretty poor argument, I'm afraid. Just because some people in the past have made some kind of claim that you yourself admit to be false, you think you can get away with making the same claim. :confused:

In wet/dry conditions, it is possible for a driver to make a good or a bad call on when to switch tyres, that is quite simply the only time when drivers can make a difference to strategy. In a dry race, drivers do not have the necessary info. The most a driver can do is question the call, but if he delays too long while arguing about it, the opportunity which the pitlane have spotted will have gone. So the driver has to follow the instruction to pit, and at that point he is going to be busy doing the fastest possible inlap.

As far as overtaking is concerned, it usually seems to be on the tracks where it is most difficult to overtake, that McLaren produce the most stupid strategies. Maybe the pressure of needing to get it right scrambles their brains. Monaco and Valencia this year were also very bad for Jenson.


It wasn't my strongest argument.

Anyway, I hope we agree that strategy is too subjective to put into the list?

#2272 Nahnever

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 00:57

IMO Button's stock had dropped really far because of 2012 alone. - Much slower in qualifying than last year, He is going past his prime, Weaker setup skills, and overall lack of adaptability was shown up this year.

And on the contrary Hamilton's stock has skyrocketed to higher heights. He seems to be even more complete than ever before.

I agree :up:

#2273 as65p

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:06

IMO Button's stock had dropped really far because of 2012 alone. - Much slower in qualifying than last year, He is going past his prime, Weaker setup skills, and overall lack of adaptability was shown up this year.

And on the contrary Hamilton's stock has skyrocketed to higher heights.
He seems to be even more complete than ever before.


Yep, getting the most coveted seat in the field for 2013 is undeniable proof of that

#2274 Watkins74

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:20

IMO Button's stock had dropped really far because of 2012 alone. - Much slower in qualifying than last year, He is going past his prime, Weaker setup skills, and overall lack of adaptability was shown up this year.

And on the contrary Hamilton's stock has skyrocketed to higher heights. He seems to be even more complete than ever before.

Agree with the first part.

Don't agree with the second part.

#2275 BigBadBless

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:43

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :eek: :eek: :eek: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Easily one of the funniest things I have ever read on the internet.


It's not at all though, is it? In reality, you're just doing the age-old hyper-exaggerated reductio ad absurdum of ridicule. You're basically implying that his assertions or postulations are so ridiculous as to almost bring tears of mirth to your eyes, whereas in reality his post was considered, well researched and articulate, whereas yours was.. well, nothing really. Almost a non-entity.

It actually reads as a barely more sophisticated version of an xbox live hate messages I have received: namely "HAHAHHAHA LOL UR BAD HAHAHAHAH".

On the other hand, if that really is one of the funniest things you've EVER read on the internet, I really don't know what to say.

Edited by StefanArak, 09 November 2012 - 03:51.


#2276 BigBadBless

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:50

Yep, getting the most coveted seat in the field for 2013 is undeniable proof of that


A conscious trolling attempt which doesn't counter the argument at all. McLaren is the fastest car right now, and they were offering him "a contract worth more than any other driver receives". (http://www.thesunday...icle1136512.ece) He turned that down, knowing full well what he was doing. So again, your point is...?

#2277 Lazy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:54

A conscious trolling attempt which doesn't counter the argument at all. McLaren is the fastest car right now, and they were offering him "a contract worth more than any other driver receives". (http://www.thesunday...icle1136512.ece) He turned that down, knowing full well what he was doing. So again, your point is...?


It's interesting that MW's comments are so often dismissed as media spin by some fans and yet taken as gospel when it suits their agenda.

Lewis went to Mercedes because his relationship with McLaren had become untenable and RB and Ferrari didn't want him.

#2278 f1fastestlap

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:57

Agree with the first part.

Don't agree with the second part.


That would be a first... :cool:

#2279 moorsey

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:06

It's interesting that MW's comments are so often dismissed as media spin by some fans and yet taken as gospel when it suits their agenda.

Lewis went to Mercedes because his relationship with McLaren had become untenable and RB and Ferrari didn't want him.


And what is so unreasonable about going somewhere where he is made to feel wanted?
Lots of marriages fall apart because one of the partners is made to feel more wanted elsewhere and the new "partnership" often blossoms as a result.

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#2280 PretentiousBread

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:38

It's interesting that MW's comments are so often dismissed as media spin by some fans and yet taken as gospel when it suits their agenda.

Lewis went to Mercedes because his relationship with McLaren had become untenable and RB and Ferrari didn't want him.


Must have been untenable only from Hamilton's perspective though, or why else would they be offering him a considerably better deal than JB was on?

And I think it's obvious why Ferrari and RB didn't want him.

#2281 jjcale

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:50

Must have been untenable only from Hamilton's perspective though, or why else would they be offering him a considerably better deal than JB was on?

And I think it's obvious why Ferrari and RB didn't want him.


After they "offerred" him a paycut - in a very public manner.

Edited by jjcale, 09 November 2012 - 14:30.


#2282 Gareth

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:22

Where I looked, Button is 10/1 for the title next season, Hamilton 14/1. Perez 16/1, Rosberg 33/1.

So they can be added to the list of people who evidently don't see Button as anywhere near Hamilton's equal. No doubt they'll be labelled as fanboys too. Fanboys who enjoy losing potentially thousands of pounds, just for fun.

Bookmaker odds don't reflect only their assesment of the actual chances of something happened.

They will never be higher than what they think are the actual chances (otherwise they will lose money) but they will be lower. One of the factors making them lower is the ability to still generate bets at a lower than "actual odds" price. For example, England's odds in a football tournament will likely be lower with UK bookmakers than others, because they can still attract bets at those lower odds because England fans want to bet for their team.

In other words, Hamilton's lower price could as much reflect a perceived (by the bookies) higher chance of success as it does a skewed perspective of the market by punters. Or, in short, Hamilton's odds may be a function of a higher number of fanboy gamblers.

#2283 Gareth

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:28

Don't agree with the second part.

The second part certainly contained some hyperbole that I would disagree with.

I think it's fair to say, though, that Hamilton's driving this season has only improved his reputation. The biggest question mark over him as a driver, IMO, has been mental strength. The end of 2010, and so much of 2011, really brought those questions to the fore. 2012, on the other hand, has been phenomenal for him in this regard (IMO) - I don't think he could have done much more to show he's learnt valuable lessons from 2011.

Whilst one swallow doesn't make a summer, and his driving in 2012 doesn't mean we won't see the problems of the past rear their head again, surely it's fairly obvious that this past season can only have enhanced his reputation?

#2284 Rinehart

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:30

I like what somebody was saying the other day, that rather than judging them on points scored or nonsensically trying to re-caliberate the points totals with about 5% of the key information available (as well as none of the objectivity), what we should be judging on is that each season is effectively a SET and this was a 3 set match. That is fair because each season is a clean sheet, a new car, and ultimately drivers are driving to gain the most points in that season, not an aggregate of 3. And I think what they are driving for, affects what they get. For example, if it was all about the aggregate total, Hamilton may have scored more strongly in the later part of 2011, Button in 2010.

So, on that basis, Hamilton wins 2-1. It is simple, clear, fair and reflective, and I am comfortable with that. None of the need to argue the injustice of the actual total points and none of the preposterous and subjective impurity of re-worked points totals factoring in mechanicals and luck.

2-1. End of.

For me this has never been about trying to prove Button is better or worse, its been about establishing the truth. And the truth is he wasn't beaten 3-0 and comprehensively thrashed, he was beaten 2-1 and greatly closed the perceived performance and reputation gap between Hamilton and himself in doing so.

Mission accomplished as far as I am concerned. I remain fairly solid in my belief that whilst Hamilton is faster, Button remains a very strong and close competitor because he is so good in so many other areas. Prost was never the fastest driver on the planet. I think JB is just as likely to win another title as Hamilton, when the opportunity arises. They both remain on 1 WDC each when all is said and done.

Good luck to Hamilton at Mercedes next year, but I am very happy that his fans leave this thread with the expectation (hope) that Button and McLaren are going to struggle. Great... wouldn't have it any other way. Just like the winter of 2010... I think you'll be surprised.

Edited by Rinehart, 09 November 2012 - 09:31.


#2285 Lazy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:35

The second part certainly contained some hyperbole that I would disagree with.

I think it's fair to say, though, that Hamilton's driving this season has only improved his reputation. The biggest question mark over him as a driver, IMO, has been mental strength. The end of 2010, and so much of 2011, really brought those questions to the fore. 2012, on the other hand, has been phenomenal for him in this regard (IMO) - I don't think he could have done much more to show he's learnt valuable lessons from 2011.

Whilst one swallow doesn't make a summer, and his driving in 2012 doesn't mean we won't see the problems of the past rear their head again, surely it's fairly obvious that this past season can only have enhanced his reputation?


I'd agree with that, certainly on the driving side, but the twitter incidents would no doubt have raised some worries in the eyes of prospective TP's and again cast a shadow over the mental strength aspect.

#2286 Gareth

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:36

I'd agree with that, certainly on the driving side, but the twitter incidents would no doubt have raised some worries in the eyes of prospective TP's and again cast a shadow over the mental strength aspect.

:mad: There's me trying to blank that sh*t out!

Yes, you're right.

#2287 Juan Kerr

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:37

I like what somebody was saying the other day, that rather than judging them on points scored or nonsensically trying to re-caliberate the points totals with about 5% of the key information available (as well as none of the objectivity), what we should be judging on is that each season is effectively a SET and this was a 3 set match. That is fair because each season is a clean sheet, a new car, and ultimately drivers are driving to gain the most points in that season, not an aggregate of 3. And I think what they are driving for, affects what they get. For example, if it was all about the aggregate total, Hamilton may have scored more strongly in the later part of 2011, Button in 2010.

So, on that basis, Hamilton wins 2-1. It is simple, clear, fair and reflective, and I am comfortable with that. None of the need to argue the injustice of the actual total points and none of the preposterous and subjective impurity of re-worked points totals factoring in mechanicals and luck.

2-1. End of.

For me this has never been about trying to prove Button is better or worse, its been about establishing the truth. And the truth is he wasn't beaten 3-0 and comprehensively thrashed, he was beaten 2-1 and greatly closed the perceived performance and reputation gap between Hamilton and himself in doing so.

Mission accomplished as far as I am concerned. I remain fairly solid in my belief that whilst Hamilton is faster, Button remains a very strong and close competitor because he is so good in so many other areas. Prost was never the fastest driver on the planet. I think JB is just as likely to win another title as Hamilton, when the opportunity arises. They both remain on 1 WDC each when all is said and done.

Good luck to Hamilton at Mercedes next year, but I am very happy that his fans leave this thread with the expectation (hope) that Button and McLaren are going to struggle. Great... wouldn't have it any other way. Just like the winter of 2010... I think you'll be surprised.

Hamilton is in a totally different class, its like watching Berger and Senna, both race winners and fast drivers but there is one completely stand-out faster driver. The points reflect many other factors, simply looking at how fast they drive gives a much clearer picture.

Edited by Juan Kerr, 09 November 2012 - 09:38.


#2288 jjcale

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:29

Hamilton is in a totally different class, its like watching Berger and Senna, both race winners and fast drivers but there is one completely stand-out faster driver. The points reflect many other factors, simply looking at how fast they drive gives a much clearer picture.


You would not have said this at the end of 2011... and this surely means that perceptions have changed and not the true class of the drivers.

I prefer to look at JB at his best and compare him with LH at his best ... and then there is not a great gulf in class. ... and this excludes the horrible years that JB had this year and that LH had last year.

I am not putting any science into this... I prefer to just look back at the great drives that they have both put in over the last 3 years. Both have been quite good most of the time so I dont see a need to nitpick. Nor do I equate them as it is obvious that LH is the more talented driver (you dont three years worth of date to realise that, watching a single practice session - particularly in the flesh - is sufficient) but in terms of putting their respective talents to use, there has not been that much in it ... for a number of reasons, which I prefer not to dwell on.


... but those of you who want to nitpick - at the very least - do it logically, please.

Edited by jjcale, 09 November 2012 - 10:33.


#2289 jjcale

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:39

I'd agree with that, certainly on the driving side, but the twitter incidents would no doubt have raised some worries in the eyes of prospective TP's and again cast a shadow over the mental strength aspect.


LH is still impulsive ... but not so much on track anymore ... Aside from Valencia he has been very conservative this year. Hopefully the pressure of a new job can sort him out fully.

I dont know what to make of LH on twitter ... its just bizzare. And uncharacteristic with the rest of his persona.

I also tweet - mostly using an anononymised user name and I am still pretty careful about what I say ... then you get famous folks like Trump, LH and Murdoch who have reputations to protect but say the first thing that comes to their minds... Its very odd. Twitter is not for everyone.

#2290 thesham01

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:41

I like what somebody was saying the other day, that rather than judging them on points scored or nonsensically trying to re-caliberate the points totals with about 5% of the key information available (as well as none of the objectivity), what we should be judging on is that each season is effectively a SET and this was a 3 set match. That is fair because each season is a clean sheet, a new car, and ultimately drivers are driving to gain the most points in that season, not an aggregate of 3. And I think what they are driving for, affects what they get. For example, if it was all about the aggregate total, Hamilton may have scored more strongly in the later part of 2011, Button in 2010.

So, on that basis, Hamilton wins 2-1. It is simple, clear, fair and reflective, and I am comfortable with that. None of the need to argue the injustice of the actual total points and none of the preposterous and subjective impurity of re-worked points totals factoring in mechanicals and luck.

2-1. End of.

For me this has never been about trying to prove Button is better or worse, its been about establishing the truth. And the truth is he wasn't beaten 3-0 and comprehensively thrashed, he was beaten 2-1 and greatly closed the perceived performance and reputation gap between Hamilton and himself in doing so.

Mission accomplished as far as I am concerned. I remain fairly solid in my belief that whilst Hamilton is faster, Button remains a very strong and close competitor because he is so good in so many other areas. Prost was never the fastest driver on the planet. I think JB is just as likely to win another title as Hamilton, when the opportunity arises. They both remain on 1 WDC each when all is said and done.

Good luck to Hamilton at Mercedes next year, but I am very happy that his fans leave this thread with the expectation (hope) that Button and McLaren are going to struggle. Great... wouldn't have it any other way. Just like the winter of 2010... I think you'll be surprised.


This far better than just laughing smileys.

However to say Button is just as likely to win another WDC is nonsense, and you are in a tiny minority who are believe that. And your comparison of him to a 4 time WDC is more than a bit much.

Yes he deserves the 2-1, not the 3-0, but in the seasons he lost; he considerably beat Hamilton in one (cancelling out being considerably beaten in 2010), and then completely outclassed this year. Add to this the reason he beat Hamilton in 2011 was as much down to Hamilton switching off/trying too hard due to Vettel already winning as it was Button driving well, and it's pretty clear that Hamilton is a level above Button when the chips are down.

When a WDC needs to be won, if you asked every person in the paddock who'd they would rather have/bet on, it would be Hamilton. And I don't think it would be a tough decision for them.

How many times has Hamilton been in a WDC fight in the 3 years: twice. How many times has Button: none.

Edited by thesham01, 09 November 2012 - 10:52.


#2291 thesham01

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:48

LH is still impulsive ... but not so much on track anymore ... Aside from Valencia he has been very conservative this year. Hopefully the pressure of a new job can sort him out fully.

I dont know what to make of LH on twitter ... its just bizzare. And uncharacteristic with the rest of his persona.

I also tweet - mostly using an anononymised user name and I am still pretty careful about what I say ... then you get famous folks like Trump, LH and Murdoch who have reputations to protect but say the first thing that comes to their minds... Its very odd. Twitter is not for everyone.


He's grown up completely protected, every single thing monitored. Then suddenly he's famous enough to do stuff without Ron having all the power, and then something comes along that allows him freedom/expression, so he of course grabs it with 2 hands. And just like an over protected/spoilt child, he loses the run a bit, and learns his lessons later than normal people. Unfortunately for him it's in the spotlight, most over protected/spoilt kids make those mistakes in front of only family and friends.

He has learnt his lesson well.

It's no stick to beat him with. He's a normal human being making mistakes and learning. And the one thing we see in Hamilton is his ability to learn, just look at this year.

My point is this twitter thing is more a product of his environment and upbringing than it is Hamilton himself. It's a normal reaction to the nurturing he has received.

This twitter thing will be used as a stick for the rest of his career by haters, but I bet it won't rear its head again.

Edited by thesham01, 09 November 2012 - 10:58.


#2292 karlth

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:52

the 2-1, not the 3-0, but in the seasons he lost; he was considerably beaten in one (cancelling out being considerably beaten in 2010), and then completely outclassed this year. Add to this the reason he beat Hamilton in 2011 was as much down to Hamilton switching off/trying too hard due to Vettel already winning as it was Button driving well, and it's pretty clear that Hamilton is a level above Button when the chips are down.


The thing is that last year Hamilton was never slow compared to Button, he was just crashing all over the place. I am certain that this will be a major problem next year for McLaren when they look at the lap times in testing and have to wonder whether the 0.5s lacking is due to Button or the car.


#2293 as65p

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:55

This far better than just laughing smileys.

However to say Button is just as likely to win another WDC is nonsense, and you are in a tiny minority who are believe that. And your comparison of him to a 4 time WDC is more than a bit much.

Yes he deserves the 2-1, not the 3-0, but in the seasons he lost; he was considerably beaten in one (cancelling out being considerably beaten in 2010), and then completely outclassed this year. Add to this the reason he beat Hamilton in 2011 was as much down to Hamilton switching off/trying too hard due to Vettel already winning as it was Button driving well, and it's pretty clear that Hamilton is a level above Button when the chips are down.

When a WDC needs to be won, if you asked every person in the paddock who'd they would rather have/bet on, it would be Hamilton. And I don't think it would be a tough decision for them.


That's probably true. Got nothing to do with who will win <whatever> in the end. Hamilton has better odds on races/championships than Button pretty much every race/season. But obviously what people expect and what they get in the end is only losely related.

Where Hamilton really is a level above Button is in expectations attached.

#2294 thesham01

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:04

That's probably true. Got nothing to do with who will win <whatever> in the end. Hamilton has better odds on races/championships than Button pretty much every race/season. But obviously what people expect and what they get in the end is only losely related.

Where Hamilton really is a level above Button is in expectations attached.


That's just nonsense though, isn't it?

Hamilton in every year bar one of his career has been outstanding. The bookies know this, as do the experts who rate him above Button every single time. Ye on the other hand like to think his whole career was 50% 2011. And not even all of it, ye like to think his career mostly consists of the second half of 2011.

Whether you will ever admit it, or ever see it, is unknown; Hamilton is a considerably better driver. And that's no embarrassment to Button considering he is definitely top 2 in the world.

Edited by thesham01, 09 November 2012 - 11:06.


#2295 Lazy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:23

However to say Button is just as likely to win another WDC is nonsense, and you are in a tiny minority who are believe that.


Not at all, even the bookmakers, who as Gareth said are probably slanted towards Lewis, give Button a better chance next year than Lewis.

The new tyres next year, which Pirelli have said will have a wider operating window, mean that we are highly unlikely to see a repeat of Button's woes this year. We are much more likely to see the Aus, China, Spa Button next year.

As you claim the vast majority of operational errors etc, have happened to Lewis this year, there's no reason why they should suddenly start happening to Button next year.

How many times has Hamilton been in a WDC fight in the 3 years: twice. How many times has Button: none.


Given that Button came 2nd and got more points last year than Lewis has got in any season, and that Lewis was out of it this season long before Button was out of it in 2010, that statement makes no sense.

#2296 thesham01

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:15

Not at all, even the bookmakers, who as Gareth said are probably slanted towards Lewis, give Button a better chance next year than Lewis.


So the fact Hamilton is in a Mercedes has nothing to do with that fact? Because in this thread, and in my post, we are judging the ability of the driver.

Of course you knew that though.



The new tyres next year, which Pirelli have said will have a wider operating window, mean that we are highly unlikely to see a repeat of Button's woes this year. We are much more likely to see the Aus, China, Spa Button next year.

As you claim the vast majority of operational errors etc, have happened to Lewis this year, there's no reason why they should suddenly start happening to Button next year.


Given that Button came 2nd and got more points last year than Lewis has got in any season, and that Lewis was out of it this season long before Button was out of it in 2010, that statement makes no sense.


And for the second time in your post you have admitted that Button needs help in beating Hamilton; car advantage and now tyres.

As for my statement not making sense; I really don't think its up for argument that Button has never been in a title fight at McLaren. It's something that won't change unless McLaren give Button a large car advantage, and the car happens to suit his style AND the tyres suit him. History backs me up in very overwhelming way.

He's a quality driver no doubt.

Edited by thesham01, 09 November 2012 - 12:19.


#2297 Dalton007

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:24

So the fact Hamilton is in a Mercedes has nothing to do with that fact? Because in this thread, and in my post, we are judging the ability of the driver.

Of course you knew that though.





And for the second time in your post you have admitted that Button needs help in beating Hamilton; car advantage and now tyres.

As for my statement not making sense; I really don't think its up for argument that Button has never been in a title fight at McLaren. It's something that won't change unless McLaren give Button a large car advantage, and the car happens to suit his style AND the tyres suit him. History backs me up in very overwhelming way.

He's a quality driver no doubt.


Button doesn't need a car advantage, he needs a car that is balanced. It's just the way he drives a F1 car.


#2298 Lazy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:41

So the fact Hamilton is in a Mercedes has nothing to do with that fact? Because in this thread, and in my post, we are judging the ability of the driver.


But he is at Mercedes next year and , given his statements about wanting to build a successful team around him a la Schumacher, he's in it for the long haul. So unless Mercedes can up their game significantly, for the next 3 years or so Button looks like having the advantage. Part of F1, after all, is getting yourself in the right team, even Senna wouldn't have been WDC without getting into the right team.

So, as Rinehart said, Button is at least as likely to get another WDC. Only time will tell though ofc.


#2299 thesham01

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:49

But he is at Mercedes next year and , given his statements about wanting to build a successful team around him a la Schumacher, he's in it for the long haul. So unless Mercedes can up their game significantly, for the next 3 years or so Button looks like having the advantage. Part of F1, after all, is getting yourself in the right team, even Senna wouldn't have been WDC without getting into the right team.

So, as Rinehart said, Button is at least as likely to get another WDC. Only time will tell though ofc.


Well that is the good thing about this discussion; we actually will find out. Our ones about luck and the like will never really be made certain.

It's going to be a very interesting, and more than likely heated, 2013.

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#2300 Shiroo

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:49

Not at all, even the bookmakers, who as Gareth said are probably slanted towards Lewis, give Button a better chance next year than Lewis.

The new tyres next year, which Pirelli have said will have a wider operating window, mean that we are highly unlikely to see a repeat of Button's woes this year. We are much more likely to see the Aus, China, Spa Button next year.

As you claim the vast majority of operational errors etc, have happened to Lewis this year, there's no reason why they should suddenly start happening to Button next year.


Given that Button came 2nd and got more points last year than Lewis has got in any season, and that Lewis was out of it this season long before Button was out of it in 2010, that statement makes no sense.

Button is inferior driver. And anyone who has eyes can see it clearly, he is constantly whining about how inferior his car is vs his opponents like RBR, and still his teammate got 7 PPs this year. Unless Button will form a pact with devil, I can't see McLaren mounting a WDC challenge in next few years (till Button will replaced, or Perez will be really big shoot, or Mclaren car will be superior to every other car on the grid by like 1sec)