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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#2301 whitevisor

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:50

Even if his car is balanced, he still needs that two tenths to get the pole Position because those RedBulls are ALWAYS balanced!
And to top it all - the Mac 28 will have to be balanced for the majority of the races, and we all now that has never happened before.

He definitely needs a small cushion of a faster car, or for RBR, Ferrari to run into some bad luck, but it is very difficult to imagine him fighting wheel to wheel on a consistent basis against Sebastian and Fernando. If he wins a second WDC there is a very high chance it will be in another dominant car.

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#2302 Dalton007

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 13:00

Even if his car is balanced, he still needs that two tenths to get the pole Position because those RedBulls are ALWAYS balanced!
And to top it all - the Mac 28 will have to be balanced for the majority of the races, and we all now that has never happened before.

He definitely needs a small cushion of a faster car, or for RBR, Ferrari to run into some bad luck, but it is very difficult to imagine him fighting wheel to wheel on a consistent basis against Sebastian and Fernando. If he wins a second WDC there is a very high chance it will be in another dominant car.


He can push a balanced car and can be very close to Lewis in qualifying. Jenson was moaning that the BRAWN was not perfect during the Feb 09 test, despite being fastest! It's all about the balance, something Lewis is just better at than Jenson.

#2303 thesham01

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 13:12

Button doesn't need a car advantage, he needs a car that is balanced. It's just the way he drives a F1 car.


So you think that every other driver has a balanced car? You do realise that that is a huge weakness of Buttons, and is the 2nd of 2 reasons why he is inferior to Hamilton (the first being speed)?

The fact he doesn't have the ability to drive a car that isn't perfectly tailored to his needs is the reason he has never challenged for a WDC at McLaren, its the reason he stumbled over the line in 2009, its the reason why they offered Hamilton more money, and its the reason why everyone is predicting that McLaren are going into an unsure era. An era they could have avoided. It might be okay if the guys back at base design a beast, but they did this year and look what Button did? McLaren next year are under even more pressure; they know that in order to get that extra 2/3 tenths they'll need to work that bit harder, be that bit better at what they do. This includes less mistakes and better engineering etc. Its added pressure that they could do without.

At the end of the day, in the Newey/Vettel era we are living in, the one person a team needs is a Hamilton; someone who can take an inferior car and get the job done. Someone to 'outperform' the car as it were (even though that technically impossible). Button can't do this. Ferrari have Alonso and Mercedes have Hamilton as there trump cards against Newey. McLaren have, what now looks like, two guys that rely on alternative strategies for the most part.

Will it work? Maybe. We will see next year. The tyres will help Button, but even when he was on top of the tyres this year he was still considerably behind Hamilton.

Edited by thesham01, 09 November 2012 - 13:13.


#2304 stevesingo

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 13:35

To an extent, it could be argued that LH lucked in to his superior performance this year. McLaren produce a car with a narrow set up window that fortunately sits right on top of LH's driving style. The car is perfect for him. This car is outside of JB's window and can't be made to work there without significant compromises.

If the shoe was on the other foot and the car was prone to overheating front tyres, you might find LH having similar troubles to JB.

Then I suppose the blind bigots would argue the tyres don't allow LH to drive fast. Oh, didn't we have that last year...

#2305 robefc

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 13:38

To an extent, it could be argued that LH lucked in to his superior performance this year. McLaren produce a car with a narrow set up window that fortunately sits right on top of LH's driving style. The car is perfect for him. This car is outside of JB's window and can't be made to work there without significant compromises.

If the shoe was on the other foot and the car was prone to overheating front tyres, you might find LH having similar troubles to JB.

Then I suppose the blind bigots would argue the tyres don't allow LH to drive fast. Oh, didn't we have that last year...


He seemed plenty fast to me last year.

In fact we had more of that argument this year, the everyone has to drive to a delta time and can't push the tyres argument...until the last couple of races at least.

#2306 whitevisor

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 13:56

So you think that every other driver has a balanced car? You do realise that that is a huge weakness of Buttons, and is the 2nd of 2 reasons why he is inferior to Hamilton (the first being speed)?

The fact he doesn't have the ability to drive a car that isn't perfectly tailored to his needs is the reason he has never challenged for a WDC at McLaren, its the reason he stumbled over the line in 2009, its the reason why they offered Hamilton more money, and its the reason why everyone is predicting that McLaren are going into an unsure era. An era they could have avoided. It might be okay if the guys back at base design a beast, but they did this year and look what Button did? McLaren next year are under even more pressure; they know that in order to get that extra 2/3 tenths they'll need to work that bit harder, be that bit better at what they do. This includes less mistakes and better engineering etc. Its added pressure that they could do without.

At the end of the day, in the Newey/Vettel era we are living in, the one person a team needs is a Hamilton; someone who can take an inferior car and get the job done. Someone to 'outperform' the car as it were (even though that technically impossible). Button can't do this. Ferrari have Alonso and Mercedes have Hamilton as there trump cards against Newey. McLaren have, what now looks like, two guys that rely on alternative strategies for the most part.

Will it work? Maybe. We will see next year. The tyres will help Button, but even when he was on top of the tyres this year he was still considerably behind Hamilton.


Hehe. The tyres will help everybody else. The field will be even closer and as you said, a team needs a driver with that X-factor.

#2307 Dalton007

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 13:57

So you think that every other driver has a balanced car? You do realise that that is a huge weakness of Buttons, and is the 2nd of 2 reasons why he is inferior to Hamilton (the first being speed)?

The fact he doesn't have the ability to drive a car that isn't perfectly tailored to his needs is the reason he has never challenged for a WDC at McLaren, its the reason he stumbled over the line in 2009, its the reason why they offered Hamilton more money, and its the reason why everyone is predicting that McLaren are going into an unsure era. An era they could have avoided. It might be okay if the guys back at base design a beast, but they did this year and look what Button did? McLaren next year are under even more pressure; they know that in order to get that extra 2/3 tenths they'll need to work that bit harder, be that bit better at what they do. This includes less mistakes and better engineering etc. Its added pressure that they could do without.

At the end of the day, in the Newey/Vettel era we are living in, the one person a team needs is a Hamilton; someone who can take an inferior car and get the job done. Someone to 'outperform' the car as it were (even though that technically impossible). Button can't do this. Ferrari have Alonso and Mercedes have Hamilton as there trump cards against Newey. McLaren have, what now looks like, two guys that rely on alternative strategies for the most part.

Will it work? Maybe. We will see next year. The tyres will help Button, but even when he was on top of the tyres this year he was still considerably behind Hamilton.


LOL At any possible mention of Button you are out wielding an axe.

Button drives an F1 car like no other driver on the grid. Unfortunately, Button's weakness is that he can't live with a snappy car. He doesn't like oversteer. Every driver has their fair share of weaknesses. Very few are willing to admit it.

McLaren need to produce a reliable car, not a beast, a car that works for Button's style. I think they will do just fine next year. :up:

And if you are talking about getting over the line in '09, then Lewis was damn lucky in '08 because that last drive was not epic.


#2308 bub

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:03

To an extent, it could be argued that LH lucked in to his superior performance this year. McLaren produce a car with a narrow set up window that fortunately sits right on top of LH's driving style. The car is perfect for him. This car is outside of JB's window and can't be made to work there without significant compromises.

If the shoe was on the other foot and the car was prone to overheating front tyres, you might find LH having similar troubles to JB.

Then I suppose the blind bigots would argue the tyres don't allow LH to drive fast. Oh, didn't we have that last year...


Hamilton was still pretty quick last year. Button has been too slow on too many occasions this year for somebody who wants to be considered equal to Hamilton and win championships. Hamilton is pretty much always quick, Button is the one who struggles to adapt/has a narrow windows of performance.

#2309 thesham01

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:04

LOL At any possible mention of Button you are out wielding an axe.


:lol:

Fair enough.


Button drives an F1 car like no other driver on the grid. Unfortunately, Button's weakness is that he can't live with a snappy car. He doesn't like oversteer. Every driver has their fair share of weaknesses. Very few are willing to admit it.

McLaren need to produce a reliable car, not a beast, a car that works for Button's style. I think they will do just fine next year. :up:

And if you are talking about getting over the line in '09, then Lewis was damn lucky in '08 because that last drive was not epic.


Hows that? With added help from the team? Because history would indicate that this is the case. 2012 would more than indicate, it would lay bare that statement.

As for the rest of your post; the point I was trying to make was Button doesn't have the x-factor, which is so desperately needed in the Newey/Vettel era. McLaren knew this, and so stopped playing hard-ball and offered him more than any driver on the grid. It was too late. I can guarantee the vast majority at McLaren regret the way the big boys played their hand.

Button is an above average driver, he just isn't whats needed when everyone is so closely matched... and your rival has Newey/Vettel.



#2310 Rinehart

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:05

This far better than just laughing smileys.

However to say Button is just as likely to win another WDC is nonsense, and you are in a tiny minority who are believe that. And your comparison of him to a 4 time WDC is more than a bit much.

Yes he deserves the 2-1, not the 3-0, but in the seasons he lost; he considerably beat Hamilton in one (cancelling out being considerably beaten in 2010), and then completely outclassed this year. Add to this the reason he beat Hamilton in 2011 was as much down to Hamilton switching off/trying too hard due to Vettel already winning as it was Button driving well, and it's pretty clear that Hamilton is a level above Button when the chips are down.

When a WDC needs to be won, if you asked every person in the paddock who'd they would rather have/bet on, it would be Hamilton. And I don't think it would be a tough decision for them.

How many times has Hamilton been in a WDC fight in the 3 years: twice. How many times has Button: none.


You are an impossible person to have a conversation! I laughed at your post because it was ridiculous. I post that Hamilton wins 2-1 in sets and your still moaning about the small print and making excuses. Try saying something positive about Button, you'll feel much better...

Hamilton has a genuine title chance in 07, 08, 10 and 12 and has 1 title from 4 attempts. Delete 2012 if you like as it wasn't fair. So, 1 in 3.

Button has a genuine title chance in 09, 10 and 12 and has 1 from 3.

Those are the FACTS, I really don't care what you think the paddock would say.


#2311 Rinehart

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:13

Well that is the good thing about this discussion; we actually will find out. Our ones about luck and the like will never really be made certain.

It's going to be a very interesting, and more than likely heated, 2013.


If Lewis is beaten by Button it will be Mercedes fault no doubt.
Do remember that Hamilton CHOSE to go to Mercedes. Surely one aspect of supporting a driver is supporting his decisions.
As I said, whilst Hamilton is faster, there is more to being a great driver, decision making being one of them... Interestingly Button calls is a poor decision...

I am not sure how competitive McLaren will be next year but I am bloody sure that Mercedes won't be sensational.

#2312 thesham01

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:13

You are an impossible person to have a conversation! I laughed at your post because it was ridiculous. I post that Hamilton wins 2-1 in sets and your still moaning about the small print and making excuses. Try saying something positive about Button, you'll feel much better...

Hamilton has a genuine title chance in 07, 08, 10 and 12 and has 1 title from 4 attempts. Delete 2012 if you like as it wasn't fair. So, 1 in 3.

Button has a genuine title chance in 09, 10 and 12 and has 1 from 3.

Those are the FACTS, I really don't care what you think the paddock would say.


Maybe you're right, if so I apologise.

I still believe what I believe though.

#2313 BigBadBless

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:53

It's interesting that MW's comments are so often dismissed as media spin by some fans and yet taken as gospel when it suits their agenda.

Lewis went to Mercedes because his relationship with McLaren had become untenable and RB and Ferrari didn't want him.


No, yet again, someone is lumping my views with the views of someone else. When have I personally dismissed his comments as media spin, and when have I personally taken his comments as gospel? It's totally irrelevant if someone else has done this. Why are you even bringing it up? I treat most of MW's, and most people's who are involved in F1s comments the same- with some scepticism but an acknowledgement that they know far more than I ever will about the sport.

#2314 BillBald

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:59

It wasn't my strongest argument.

Anyway, I hope we agree that strategy is too subjective to put into the list?


That's why I don't take the list very seriously.

Strategy is too important to be left out. Yes, you can argue about it all day, but the same is true of luck and reliability. One man's unlucky driver is another's car-breaker or crasher.

One thing that is very clear is that it's no advantage in McLaren to have the team 'on your side', and it won't be until (unless?) they sort themselves out. Contrast that with Red Bull or Ferrari.



#2315 thesham01

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:17

That's why I don't take the list very seriously.

Strategy is too important to be left out. Yes, you can argue about it all day, but the same is true of luck and reliability. One man's unlucky driver is another's car-breaker or crasher.

One thing that is very clear is that it's no advantage in McLaren to have the team 'on your side', and it won't be until (unless?) they sort themselves out. Contrast that with Red Bull or Ferrari.


So you think its best we ignore the luck factor?

I think its very clear Hamilton has been crippled this season with bad luck, ie things out of his control to such an extent we can say he is blameless. If you want to go through the 3 seasons and pick the bones out of the strategy calls, then that would be awesome though.

#2316 inca_roads

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:31

Bookmaker odds don't reflect only their assesment of the actual chances of something happened.

They will never be higher than what they think are the actual chances (otherwise they will lose money) but they will be lower. One of the factors making them lower is the ability to still generate bets at a lower than "actual odds" price. For example, England's odds in a football tournament will likely be lower with UK bookmakers than others, because they can still attract bets at those lower odds because England fans want to bet for their team.

In other words, Hamilton's lower price could as much reflect a perceived (by the bookies) higher chance of success as it does a skewed perspective of the market by punters. Or, in short, Hamilton's odds may be a function of a higher number of fanboy gamblers.


But to that degree? I don't think so, personally. Even extreme examples like you stated (England in world cups etc) don't vary a ridiculous amount, in my experience. I think those odds show a simple story of them believing Lewis is a better driver.

Besides, if you believed the suggestions on here about your average Hamilton fan lacking age/F1 viewing experience, there wouldn't be many old enough to gamble. :)

#2317 Burtros

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:32

This far better than just laughing smileys.

However to say Button is just as likely to win another WDC is nonsense, and you are in a tiny minority who are believe that. And your comparison of him to a 4 time WDC is more than a bit much.

Yes he deserves the 2-1, not the 3-0, but in the seasons he lost; he considerably beat Hamilton in one (cancelling out being considerably beaten in 2010), and then completely outclassed this year. Add to this the reason he beat Hamilton in 2011 was as much down to Hamilton switching off/trying too hard due to Vettel already winning as it was Button driving well, and it's pretty clear that Hamilton is a level above Button when the chips are down.

When a WDC needs to be won, if you asked every person in the paddock who'd they would rather have/bet on, it would be Hamilton. And I don't think it would be a tough decision for them.

How many times has Hamilton been in a WDC fight in the 3 years: twice. How many times has Button: none.


Hamitlon being consistently in a WDC fight is a total myth. He hasnt been in it at all this year, even if its not his fault, and 2010?? Who are you kidding? He was out of contention in the real world going into the last round, and why? because he has a poor run in the races leading up to it. He should have won Korea for example, but screwed up soon after the saftey car restart and allowed Aonso through. Furthermore, Button was only eliminated one race before Hamilton, so you are splitting hairs to say one was in it and one wasnt.

Its 0/3 for both drivers. Face It.

You are SO unbelievably blinkered on this subject its unreal. I couldnt even enjoy the sport if I had to spin everything the way you do. Seriously I would reccomend a step back. Hamilton is not paying you to promote him at the end of the day, I doubt he even gives two ****s about you in reality.

#2318 thesham01

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:36

Hamitlon being consistently in a WDC fight is a total myth. He hasnt been in it at all this year, even if its not his fault, and 2010?? Who are you kidding? He was out of contention in the real world going into the last round, and why? because he has a poor run in the races leading up to it. He should have won Korea for example, but screwed up soon after the saftey car restart and allowed Aonso through. Furthermore, Button was only eliminated one race before Hamilton, so you are splitting hairs to say one was in it and one wasnt.

Its 0/3 for both drivers. Face It.

You are SO unbelievably blinkered on this subject its unreal. I couldnt even enjoy the sport if I had to spin everything the way you do. Seriously I would reccomend a step back. Hamilton is not paying you to promote him at the end of the day, I doubt he even gives two ****s about you in reality.


NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! You take that back!!

Please, don't mind your 'I doubt he even....', I can guarantee he doesn't give two ****s about me. That doesn't change my opinion though; the difference between Hamilton and Button is considerably bigger than the points show.

#2319 MP422

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:36

You are an impossible person to have a conversation! I laughed at your post because it was ridiculous. I post that Hamilton wins 2-1 in sets and your still moaning about the small print and making excuses. Try saying something positive about Button, you'll feel much better...

Hamilton has a genuine title chance in 07, 08, 10 and 12 and has 1 title from 4 attempts. Delete 2012 if you like as it wasn't fair. So, 1 in 3.

Button has a genuine title chance in 09, 10 and 12 and has 1 from 3.

Those are the FACTS, I really don't care what you think the paddock would say.



Hamilton has never had a genuine car advantage over the field, Button had a genuine car advantage over the field in 09. Where was Barrichello ? 3rd? Lol :rotfl:

"The split-level diffusers generate more downforce at the rear of the car, resulting in a clear performance advantage of around 0.5 seconds per lap. With the FIA's ruling, the seven teams who are running without the split-level diffusers are expected to try to incorporate the design into their cars as soon as possible."

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/7996698.stm

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#2320 BillBald

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:45

So you think its best we ignore the luck factor?

I think its very clear Hamilton has been crippled this season with bad luck, ie things out of his control to such an extent we can say he is blameless. If you want to go through the 3 seasons and pick the bones out of the strategy calls, then that would be awesome though.


No, it's more that I think that 'the list' is not do-able.

As far as McLaren strategy calls are concerned, I created a thread last year for that, but not many people seemed interested in posting there: http://forums.autosp...w...=164386&hl=




#2321 Lazy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:45

Hamilton has never had a genuine car advantage over the field, Button had a genuine car advantage over the field in 09. Where was Barrichello ? 3rd? Lol :rotfl:

"The split-level diffusers generate more downforce at the rear of the car, resulting in a clear performance advantage of around 0.5 seconds per lap. With the FIA's ruling, the seven teams who are running without the split-level diffusers are expected to try to incorporate the design into their cars as soon as possible."

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/7996698.stm


Over the whole season the RB5 is widely recognised as being at least the equal of the BGP01, and the MP4/23 was at least as good as the F2008.

#2322 Watkins74

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:46

The second part certainly contained some hyperbole that I would disagree with.

I think it's fair to say, though, that Hamilton's driving this season has only improved his reputation. The biggest question mark over him as a driver, IMO, has been mental strength. The end of 2010, and so much of 2011, really brought those questions to the fore. 2012, on the other hand, has been phenomenal for him in this regard (IMO) - I don't think he could have done much more to show he's learnt valuable lessons from 2011.

Whilst one swallow doesn't make a summer, and his driving in 2012 doesn't mean we won't see the problems of the past rear their head again, surely it's fairly obvious that this past season can only have enhanced his reputation?

My comment was more directed at the philosophy that seems to claim that Lewis is always better today than he was yesterday no matter what he does. In my opinion he has regained his reputation as an amazing driver behind the wheel but he has cemented his reputation (ex. Twitter incident) as a block head out of it.

I will make a prediction that a whole bunch of people will miss the sentence where I said Hamilton was an amazing driver. :D





#2323 maverick69

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:52

My comment was more directed at the philosophy that seems to claim that Lewis is always better today than he was yesterday no matter what he does. In my opinion he has regained his reputation as an amazing driver behind the wheel but he has cemented his reputation (ex. Twitter incident) as a block head out of it.

I will make a prediction that a whole bunch of people will miss the sentence where I said Hamilton was an amazing driver. :D


Hater!

#2324 speng

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 16:37

My comment was more directed at the philosophy that seems to claim that Lewis is always better today than he was yesterday no matter what he does. In my opinion he has regained his reputation as an amazing driver behind the wheel but he has cemented his reputation (ex. Twitter incident) as a block head out of it.

I will make a prediction that a whole bunch of people will miss the sentence where I said Hamilton was an amazing driver. :D

Button was a block head too

During the summer of that same 2004 season Jenson stunned his BAR Honda team by announcing that he would rejoin the Williams team for the following two years. Then Jenson decided he would not join Williams. In the end, Jenson paid his way out of Williams and signed a four year deal to race for Honda at $45 million per year.

In time the twitter incident will blow over.

#2325 karlth

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 16:41

To an extent, it could be argued that LH lucked in to his superior performance this year.


Then you must really think that Hamilton has been "lucking" into superior performance throughout his entire career.


#2326 Lazy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 16:44

Button was a block head too

During the summer of that same 2004 season Jenson stunned his BAR Honda team by announcing that he would rejoin the Williams team for the following two years. Then Jenson decided he would not join Williams. In the end, Jenson paid his way out of Williams and signed a four year deal to race for Honda at $45 million per year.

In time the twitter incident will blow over.


Well, we are still hearing about Jenson's mistakes from 2004, so I wouldn't count on it ;)

$45 million a year? F*** me, I think I would have blown out Williams too!

#2327 Dalton007

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 17:11

Hamilton has never had a genuine car advantage over the field, Button had a genuine car advantage over the field in 09. Where was Barrichello ? 3rd? Lol :rotfl:

"The split-level diffusers generate more downforce at the rear of the car, resulting in a clear performance advantage of around 0.5 seconds per lap. With the FIA's ruling, the seven teams who are running without the split-level diffusers are expected to try to incorporate the design into their cars as soon as possible."

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/7996698.stm


Button put Barrichello in his place in those 6 races. He had a fantastic car and he made the most of it. :wave: And Toyota and Red Bull screwed themselves over because they should have won a race each in those races.

#2328 speng

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 17:14

Well, we are still hearing about Jenson's mistakes from 2004, so I wouldn't count on it ;)

$45 million a year? F*** me, I think I would have blown out Williams too!

if only you could understand point but it is alright.

#2329 Force Ten

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 17:15

Well, we are still hearing about Jenson's mistakes from 2004, so I wouldn't count on it ;)

$45 million a year? F*** me, I think I would have blown out Williams too!

That was Schumacher money. I think somebody somewher got their facts wrong badly. Maybe the whole multi-year contract PLUS the buyout of Williams summed together was worth that much.

#2330 stevesingo

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 17:45

Hamilton was still pretty quick last year. Button has been too slow on too many occasions this year for somebody who wants to be considered equal to Hamilton and win championships. Hamilton is pretty much always quick, Button is the one who struggles to adapt/has a narrow windows of performance.


I think you missed the point. The MP4-27 may well have a narrow set up window that happens to be right for LH wrong for JB. If it is wrong (i.e doesn't generate tyre temps easily) it is wrong and there is not a lot JB can do about that apart from change the set up of the car to generate more temps, maybe compromising pace as a consequence.


Then you must really think that Hamilton has been "lucking" into superior performance throughout his entire career.


Not at all, but if the tyre car combo narrows in your favour, and not your team mates then you would consider that fortunate.


#2331 robefc

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 17:51

I like what somebody was saying the other day, that rather than judging them on points scored or nonsensically trying to re-caliberate the points totals with about 5% of the key information available (as well as none of the objectivity), what we should be judging on is that each season is effectively a SET and this was a 3 set match.

snip

2-1. End of.

snip


:up:

Superb post, only truncated to save space and to ask whether you are awarding lewis this season on performance or whether it would be 2-1 to JB if he overttok Lewis over the next 3 races?

#2332 Lazy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 18:04

if only you could understand point but it is alright.


:D

#2333 Lazy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 18:06

That was Schumacher money. I think somebody somewher got their facts wrong badly. Maybe the whole multi-year contract PLUS the buyout of Williams summed together was worth that much.


:D

Nobody got that sort of money, from memory I think it was a 5 year contract at about 8 million a year which would be about right :)

#2334 Lazy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 18:07

:up:

Superb post, only truncated to save space and to ask whether you are awarding lewis this season on performance or whether it would be 2-1 to JB if he overttok Lewis over the next 3 races?


Don't tell 'im Rinehart ;)

#2335 bub

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 18:32

I think you missed the point. The MP4-27 may well have a narrow set up window that happens to be right for LH wrong for JB. If it is wrong (i.e doesn't generate tyre temps easily) it is wrong and there is not a lot JB can do about that apart from change the set up of the car to generate more temps, maybe compromising pace as a consequence.


That may be true but if you can't give Hamilton an extra 100 points or so for bad luck because we don't have enough info then we certainly can't claim the car doesn't suit Jenson and Hamilton lucked in. I don't remember people cutting Massa much slack when it was claimed the Ferrari suited Alonso more than him.
I also thought at McLaren Jenson was considered the better car developer, so I don't understand how/why McLaren ended up building a car that suits Hamilton more than Button. It could be the case but I don't think it's fair to just assume so.

Edited by bub, 09 November 2012 - 19:50.


#2336 paulrobs

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 19:41

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :eek: :eek: :eek: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Easily one of the funniest things I have ever read on the internet.


Why? Please enlighten us. It looked ok to me. Perhaps you could argue the margin of some of the points but the gist of it looked pretty fair.

Look forward to your reply :)

#2337 paulrobs

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 19:55

My comment was more directed at the philosophy that seems to claim that Lewis is always better today than he was yesterday no matter what he does. In my opinion he has regained his reputation as an amazing driver behind the wheel but he has cemented his reputation (ex. Twitter incident) as a block head out of it.

I will make a prediction that a whole bunch of people will miss the sentence where I said Hamilton was an amazing driver. :D


And that last bit is exactly what makes this thread so impossible to have a balanced debate - you're so right, some will read what you've put and their veins will pop out as soon as they see the bit they don't like and they will completely ignore the bits that seemed ok. I'm ok with drivers being blockheads out of the car mind because they're not public speakers or captains of industry, they're just racing drivers who are paid to drive the damn car as fast as they possibly can in any given set of circustances.

#2338 paulrobs

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 19:56

I like what somebody was saying the other day, that rather than judging them on points scored or nonsensically trying to re-caliberate the points totals with about 5% of the key information available (as well as none of the objectivity), what we should be judging on is that each season is effectively a SET and this was a 3 set match. That is fair because each season is a clean sheet, a new car, and ultimately drivers are driving to gain the most points in that season, not an aggregate of 3. And I think what they are driving for, affects what they get. For example, if it was all about the aggregate total, Hamilton may have scored more strongly in the later part of 2011, Button in 2010.

So, on that basis, Hamilton wins 2-1. It is simple, clear, fair and reflective, and I am comfortable with that. None of the need to argue the injustice of the actual total points and none of the preposterous and subjective impurity of re-worked points totals factoring in mechanicals and luck.

2-1. End of.

For me this has never been about trying to prove Button is better or worse, its been about establishing the truth. And the truth is he wasn't beaten 3-0 and comprehensively thrashed, he was beaten 2-1 and greatly closed the perceived performance and reputation gap between Hamilton and himself in doing so.

Mission accomplished as far as I am concerned. I remain fairly solid in my belief that whilst Hamilton is faster, Button remains a very strong and close competitor because he is so good in so many other areas. Prost was never the fastest driver on the planet. I think JB is just as likely to win another title as Hamilton, when the opportunity arises. They both remain on 1 WDC each when all is said and done.

Good luck to Hamilton at Mercedes next year, but I am very happy that his fans leave this thread with the expectation (hope) that Button and McLaren are going to struggle. Great... wouldn't have it any other way. Just like the winter of 2010... I think you'll be surprised.


Not a bad way of looking at it I must admit :up:

#2339 robefc

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 19:57

Don't tell 'im Rinehart ;)


I'm still waiting for you to press yourself! :p

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#2340 revlec

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:00

I like what somebody was saying the other day, that rather than judging them on points scored or nonsensically trying to re-caliberate the points totals with about 5% of the key information available (as well as none of the objectivity), what we should be judging on is that each season is effectively a SET and this was a 3 set match. That is fair because each season is a clean sheet, a new car, and ultimately drivers are driving to gain the most points in that season, not an aggregate of 3. And I think what they are driving for, affects what they get. For example, if it was all about the aggregate total, Hamilton may have scored more strongly in the later part of 2011, Button in 2010.

So, on that basis, Hamilton wins 2-1. It is simple, clear, fair and reflective, and I am comfortable with that. None of the need to argue the injustice of the actual total points and none of the preposterous and subjective impurity of re-worked points totals factoring in mechanicals and luck.

2-1. End of.


That "somebody" is me.. :)
I have never understood this overall points thing, because each season is different with different conditions.
The points in a season is the best instrument(with this system) we have to tell who won the battle.

Edited by revlec, 09 November 2012 - 20:09.


#2341 Kingshark

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:03

If anyone look points scored so far as evidence, he is delusional... This season really revealed difference between 2 drivers, Button was trashed in both qualifying and race pace.

To quote Churchill "there are lies and there are damn lies and then there are statistics"!

That didn't take long. :rotfl:

I never said that Button was a better driver than Hamilton. I said that the difference between the two drivers is clearly over-exaggerated, and still less than most people are making it out to be.

I see that Hamilton fans are quite sensitive on what is said about him, so I'm going to controversially stick my neck out for the sake of it. Lewis is the third best driver on the grid. :wave:

#2342 Moore

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:18

That didn't take long. :rotfl:

I never said that Button was a better driver than Hamilton. I said that the difference between the two drivers is clearly over-exaggerated, and still less than most people are making it out to be.

I see that Hamilton fans are quite sensitive on what is said about him, so I'm going to controversially stick my neck out for the sake of it. Lewis is the third best driver on the grid. :wave:


All fans are sensitive when somebody says something bad about their favourite driver... Its just the way it is, look at Vettel Fans reactions when you say he's always got a dominant car and isn't worthy, Schumi fans when you call him a cheat and he isn't the best of all time, Kimi fans when you call him overrated and he isn't cool, Alonso fans when you say he was beaten by a rookie and isn't the best of the current grid and Button fans when you say he isn't as good as Hamilton and that he is a shit driver etc.

Its pointless in just labelling LH fans as quite sensitive when all other fans are the same.

#2343 whitevisor

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 22:10

That didn't take long. :rotfl:

I never said that Button was a better driver than Hamilton. I said that the difference between the two drivers is clearly over-exaggerated,and still less than most people are making it out to be.

I see that Hamilton fans are quite sensitive on what is said about him, so I'm going to controversially stick my neck out for the sake of it. Lewis is the third best driver on the grid. :wave:


As a big fan I am not too worried about how hamilton is perceived, especially after the bashing by the media in 2011. That was the lowest point for me - especially when Button was just better with the tyres and Hamilton just couldn't keep his mind focused on beating Button (he was all about Vettel and Nicole). At one stage I began to think that Hamilton was not the "Driving God" but just a "very good" driver who was only able to pull off all those amazing feats in 2007 to 2010 due to the car and the bridgestones. At the end of 2011 I really felt like an Idiot, a blind "Fanboi" who just got slapped with a reality check. I really feared what 2012 was going to bring especially with Button on a high in a car that reportedly was made with a bias to his inputs. To my relief it was soon known that Hamilton's performance in 2011 was because of his fragile mind and not his talent at driving an F1 car. He obviously fixed his mental state for 2012 and is better than ever. I know he is not going to get the top driver rating for 2012, most media outlets will put Fernando first and Sebastian 2nd and Ham 3rd. That will not bother me one bit as I obviously think that on equal chances the Mclaren and Hamilton would have walked the championship this year.

Edited by whitevisor, 09 November 2012 - 22:11.


#2344 moorsey

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:46

As a big fan I am not too worried about how hamilton is perceived, especially after the bashing by the media in 2011. That was the lowest point for me - especially when Button was just better with the tyres and Hamilton just couldn't keep his mind focused on beating Button (he was all about Vettel and Nicole). At one stage I began to think that Hamilton was not the "Driving God" but just a "very good" driver who was only able to pull off all those amazing feats in 2007 to 2010 due to the car and the bridgestones. At the end of 2011 I really felt like an Idiot, a blind "Fanboi" who just got slapped with a reality check. I really feared what 2012 was going to bring especially with Button on a high in a car that reportedly was made with a bias to his inputs. To my relief it was soon known that Hamilton's performance in 2011 was because of his fragile mind and not his talent at driving an F1 car. He obviously fixed his mental state for 2012 and is better than ever. I know he is not going to get the top driver rating for 2012, most media outlets will put Fernando first and Sebastian 2nd and Ham 3rd. That will not bother me one bit as I obviously think that on equal chances the Mclaren and Hamilton would have walked the championship this year.


Great post and very well put :up: :up:

#2345 stevesingo

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:26

That may be true but if you can't give Hamilton an extra 100 points or so for bad luck because we don't have enough info then we certainly can't claim the car doesn't suit Jenson and Hamilton lucked in. I don't remember people cutting Massa much slack when it was claimed the Ferrari suited Alonso more than him.
I also thought at McLaren Jenson was considered the better car developer, so I don't understand how/why McLaren ended up building a car that suits Hamilton more than Button. It could be the case but I don't think it's fair to just assume so.


To an extent, it could be argued that LH lucked in to his superior performance this year. McLaren produce a car with a narrow set up window that fortunately sits right on top of LH's driving style. The car is perfect for him. This car is outside of JB's window and can't be made to work there without significant compromises.

If the shoe was on the other foot and the car was prone to overheating front tyres, you might find LH having similar troubles to JB.


I bolded the above just to be sure you don't think I am assuming. I am just putting up a point of view. F1 is a complex sport and the performance on a race weekend is influenced by many factors, and to assume that the performance on any given weekend is purely down to how well a drive drives the car would be wrong. In the Spanish GP Maldonado was 1.6secs faster than Senna. Huge. Is PM really that much faster or is their a reason for that.

Interesting that you bring up Massa. Sure, FA has dominated FM for the most part. Reasons were speculated as to his head still wasn't right, he couldn't get the tyres to work, not the same spec car as FA. I believe it was a combination of all. But there are reasons all the same.



#2346 Peter Perfect

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:28

I like what somebody was saying the other day, that rather than judging them on points scored or nonsensically trying to re-caliberate the points totals with about 5% of the key information available (as well as none of the objectivity), what we should be judging on is that each season is effectively a SET and this was a 3 set match. That is fair because each season is a clean sheet, a new car, and ultimately drivers are driving to gain the most points in that season, not an aggregate of 3. And I think what they are driving for, affects what they get. For example, if it was all about the aggregate total, Hamilton may have scored more strongly in the later part of 2011, Button in 2010.

So, on that basis, Hamilton wins 2-1. It is simple, clear, fair and reflective, and I am comfortable with that. None of the need to argue the injustice of the actual total points and none of the preposterous and subjective impurity of re-worked points totals factoring in mechanicals and luck.

2-1. End of.

For me this has never been about trying to prove Button is better or worse, its been about establishing the truth. And the truth is he wasn't beaten 3-0 and comprehensively thrashed, he was beaten 2-1 and greatly closed the perceived performance and reputation gap between Hamilton and himself in doing so.

Mission accomplished as far as I am concerned. I remain fairly solid in my belief that whilst Hamilton is faster, Button remains a very strong and close competitor because he is so good in so many other areas. Prost was never the fastest driver on the planet. I think JB is just as likely to win another title as Hamilton, when the opportunity arises. They both remain on 1 WDC each when all is said and done.

Good luck to Hamilton at Mercedes next year, but I am very happy that his fans leave this thread with the expectation (hope) that Button and McLaren are going to struggle. Great... wouldn't have it any other way. Just like the winter of 2010... I think you'll be surprised.


:up: Good post and I think it sums up the feelings of most of the Button fans on this thread.

#2347 Dalton007

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:38

I concur, a very good post by Rinehart. I'm looking forward to 2013 and I wish both drivers the best of luck.

#2348 Lazy

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 13:46

I like what somebody was saying the other day, that rather than judging them on points scored or nonsensically trying to re-caliberate the points totals with about 5% of the key information available (as well as none of the objectivity), what we should be judging on is that each season is effectively a SET and this was a 3 set match. That is fair because each season is a clean sheet, a new car, and ultimately drivers are driving to gain the most points in that season, not an aggregate of 3. And I think what they are driving for, affects what they get. For example, if it was all about the aggregate total, Hamilton may have scored more strongly in the later part of 2011, Button in 2010.

So, on that basis, Hamilton wins 2-1. It is simple, clear, fair and reflective, and I am comfortable with that. None of the need to argue the injustice of the actual total points and none of the preposterous and subjective impurity of re-worked points totals factoring in mechanicals and luck.



That "somebody" is me.. :)
I have never understood this overall points thing, because each season is different with different conditions.
The points in a season is the best instrument(with this system) we have to tell who won the battle.


That someone, as you can see, was revlec, he proposes that points over the season are the best barometer. Do you agree or do you think that Hamilton has won already?

#2349 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 14:15

Button has proven himself to be a match for Hamilton in the past 3 seasons. I know it hurts Lewis fans, but facts are facts. You live in denial if you think luck can be a factor over 3 long seasons. Luck can be important in one qualifying session or one race, but over 3 seasons points standings don't lie.

#2350 pinkypants

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 14:28

Button has proven himself to be a match for Hamilton in the past 3 seasons. I know it hurts Lewis fans, but facts are facts. You live in denial if you think luck can be a factor over 3 long seasons. Luck can be important in one qualifying session or one race, but over 3 seasons points standings don't lie.

:lol: