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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#2351 amppatel

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 14:36

This thread is pointless, LH beats JB in every single way, race pace and qualy. This is simply not up for debate, its FACT.

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#2352 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 14:53

This thread is pointless, LH beats JB in every single way, race pace and qualy. This is simply not up for debate, its FACT.


First driver in history that beats his teammate in every single way and yet doesn't score more points than him.

#2353 andrewf1

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 15:00

First driver in history that beats his teammate in every single way and yet doesn't score more points than him.


don't hold your breath, the season isn't over yet. although i assume that if LH beats JB by 1 point, you'll dismiss that fact and claim they were basically equals. if JB beats LH by 1 point you'll use that as hard proof to suit your agenda that points are the single most effective way to evaluate drivers.


#2354 TurboF1

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 15:20

don't hold your breath, the season isn't over yet. although i assume that if LH beats JB by 1 point, you'll dismiss that fact and claim they were basically equals. if JB beats LH by 1 point you'll use that as hard proof to suit your agenda that points are the single most effective way to evaluate drivers.



Quoted for truth! A lot of the JB fans are clinging to that this year to show that there's not much difference between them this year. If this year isn't out and out proof that the points do not fully tell the story of a drivers performance over the course of a season, then I don't know what is. Of course, certain blinkered folks will do there best to whitewash this glaring fact because it suits their "Jenson is the equal of Lewis" agenda. Heaven forbid if more team cockups cost Lewis more points and if by some miracle Jenson finishes the year ahead on points it will be shouted from the rooftops. Just the very thought sickens me to no end. The piss poor performance of McLaren as a whole this year, considering the inherent pace of the car, has been atrocious at best. Especially for an organization that calls itself a "top team". Bunch of clowns I say.

:rolleyes:

#2355 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 15:20

don't hold your breath, the season isn't over yet. although i assume that if LH beats JB by 1 point, you'll dismiss that fact and claim they were basically equals. if JB beats LH by 1 point you'll use that as hard proof to suit your agenda that points are the single most effective way to evaluate drivers.


I don't have any agenda man. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter who beats the other one by one point, in either case it will mean they were equal. And the 3 years they've been together count, not just this one.

#2356 revlec

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 15:52

Quoted for truth! A lot of the JB fans are clinging to that this year to show that there's not much difference between them this year. If this year isn't out and out proof that the points do not fully tell the story of a drivers performance over the course of a season, then I don't know what is. Of course, certain blinkered folks will do there best to whitewash this glaring fact because it suits their "Jenson is the equal of Lewis" agenda. Heaven forbid if more team cockups cost Lewis more points and if by some miracle Jenson finishes the year ahead on points it will be shouted from the rooftops. Just the very thought sickens me to no end. The piss poor performance of McLaren as a whole this year, considering the inherent pace of the car, has been atrocious at best. Especially for an organization that calls itself a "top team". Bunch of clowns I say.

:rolleyes:


The most embarassing thing is that this season, HAM has secured 7(yes seven included Spain!!!) pole positions.. McLaren :rolleyes: :down:

Edited by revlec, 10 November 2012 - 16:03.


#2357 moorsey

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 16:06

Quoted for truth! A lot of the JB fans are clinging to that this year to show that there's not much difference between them this year. If this year isn't out and out proof that the points do not fully tell the story of a drivers performance over the course of a season, then I don't know what is. Of course, certain blinkered folks will do there best to whitewash this glaring fact because it suits their "Jenson is the equal of Lewis" agenda. Heaven forbid if more team cockups cost Lewis more points and if by some miracle Jenson finishes the year ahead on points it will be shouted from the rooftops. Just the very thought sickens me to no end. The piss poor performance of McLaren as a whole this year, considering the inherent pace of the car, has been atrocious at best. Especially for an organization that calls itself a "top team". Bunch of clowns I say.

:rolleyes:

I totally agree and to hear the latest rubbish coming from Whitless' mouth underlines your last statement.
Personally I'm not too worried about the rest of this year [I might not even watch the last 2] because as far as I am concerned Lewis has done more than enough to prove his worth and short of pushing the bloody car over the finishing line I'm not sure what more anyone expects him to do.
I believe that he had good reasons for the move to Merc and I sincerely hope that the next couple of year allow him to show just how good he really is.
I have been a lifelong McLaren fan but not any longer. Their modus operandii is shocking and I would honestly love to see the team fail to win anything next year.

#2358 bub

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 16:13

The most embarassing thing is that this season, HAM has secured 7(yes seven included Spain!!!) pole positions.. McLaren :rolleyes: :down:


And Vettel has 5 and Alonso 2.... I think.

#2359 study

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 16:32

Don't know what the issue is, Lewis is the faster more naturally talented driver.

Button is a intelligent driver, fast when the car is good for him, smooth but not exciting.

Over the 3 years its about equal, buttons done better then many would have thought, personal opinion he's being helped with that by McLaren in the equality drive................

Button has proved himself a bit political and not a team player.

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#2360 topical

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 17:53

As a neutral, I can see that Hamilton is on another level than Button and only unreliability has masked that fact in the points standings.

#2361 MP422

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 18:03

Spain was a good indication.... when Lewis started from the back with no aids in safety cars and beat Jenson.

#2362 PretentiousBread

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 18:33

Spain was a good indication.... when Lewis started from the back with no aids in safety cars and beat Jenson.


Button was far from his best that day, so it's not a fair comparison. But on the other hand, a driver isn't just judged by his speed, but arguably more by his consistency of speed throughout a season, and that's where Button really falls down in comparison to Hamilton.

#2363 study

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 18:38

Button was far from his best that day, so it's not a fair comparison.


You could say that about 3/4 of the races this year.


#2364 PretentiousBread

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 18:49

You could say that about 3/4 of the races this year.


Didn't you read the rest of my post???

#2365 rileyl

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 18:55

You could say that about 3/4 of the races this year.


Didn't those Button fans said that facts are what it counts? When Button is slow, then that is not his best days or balance problem!

#2366 peroa

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 19:26

Button was far from his best that day, so it's not a fair comparison. But on the other hand, a driver isn't just judged by his speed, but arguably more by his consistency of speed throughout a season, and that's where Button really falls down in comparison to Hamilton.

He was?
I remember Paddy Lowe saying that Button was faster than Lew that weekend, well up to crunch time, anyway. :smoking:

#2367 PretentiousBread

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 21:08

He was?
I remember Paddy Lowe saying that Button was faster than Lew that weekend, well up to crunch time, anyway. :smoking:


Of course he was, don't be ridiculous.

#2368 Requiem84

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 21:13

Could someone give a figure of how many places Hamilton started in front of Button this year? On average I mean.

It must be something like 3/4 places on average per race. That is shocking. How can Mclaren overcone that deficit next year?

#2369 slmk

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 21:16

Could someone give a figure of how many places Hamilton started in front of Button this year? On average I mean.

It must be something like 3/4 places on average per race. That is shocking. How can Mclaren overcone that deficit next year?


By building a very fast car out of the box. And they have all the elements to do so in 2013, starting with a strong 2012 car.

#2370 andrewf1

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 21:25

Button was far from his best that day, so it's not a fair comparison. But on the other hand, a driver isn't just judged by his speed, but arguably more by his consistency of speed throughout a season, and that's where Button really falls down in comparison to Hamilton.


i would advise never to use that as an excuse for a driver's performance.
so it's not a fair comparison because sadly he was far from his best that day. well that's exactly the point. extending that logic, it wouldn't be fair to compare jenson's 2011 season with lewis', because im sure he wasn't at his best either.
it doesn't work like that, you're supposed to be at your best. and failure to do so will of course result in criticism.


#2371 PretentiousBread

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 21:29

i would advise never to use that as an excuse for a driver's performance.
so it's not a fair comparison because sadly he was far from his best that day. well that's exactly the point. extending that logic, it wouldn't be fair to compare jenson's 2011 season with lewis', because im sure he wasn't at his best either.
it doesn't work like that, you're supposed to be at your best. and failure to do so will of course result in criticism.


You're the second person to highlight the first sentence of my post seemingly without reading the rest of it.

#2372 andrewf1

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 21:32

By building a very fast car out of the box. And they have all the elements to do so in 2013, starting with a strong 2012 car.


yes, but they've had a very fast car out of the box this year as well and look how that turned out. it's not that straight-forward.
anyways nobody can predict right now, we'll just have to wait and see.

#2373 andrewf1

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 21:34

You're the second person to highlight the first sentence of my post seemingly without reading the rest of it.


relax, i've read the 2nd part and i agree with what you wrote, but it doesn't justify the choice of words for the first part. that's all i was pointing at.

#2374 lewymp4

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 22:24

James Allen recently posted an article.....HOW THE POINTS, AND THE TITLE SLIPPED AWAY FROM LEWIS HAMILTON.

If Lewis and Jenson are both equal as some may feel, then James Allen would have had a hard time writing this article.

http://www.jamesalle...lewis-hamilton/

#2375 PretentiousBread

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 23:01

relax, i've read the 2nd part and i agree with what you wrote, but it doesn't justify the choice of words for the first part. that's all i was pointing at.


I was replying to this post:

Spain was a good indication.... when Lewis started from the back with no aids in safety cars and beat Jenson.


Spain was not a normal performance from JB, sure they do happen, but it's not a 'good indication' of the relative performance between LH and him. If it was, then Hamilton would regularly finish 30+ secs ahead of JB, which in reality only happens very occasionally.


#2376 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 23:08

So, let's see if I got it right.
In 2012 Lewis suffered more from the team's incompetence.
In 2011 Lewis' mental state wasn't the best, he wasn't fully comitted.
What happened in 2010? I'm missing that one. Because Lewis only beat Jenson 240-214, surely something prevented Lewis from doing his best.

#2377 PretentiousBread

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 23:25

So, let's see if I got it right.
In 2012 Lewis suffered more from the team's incompetence.
In 2011 Lewis' mental state wasn't the best, he wasn't fully comitted.
What happened in 2010? I'm missing that one. Because Lewis only beat Jenson 240-214, surely something prevented Lewis from doing his best.


Not sure what you're getting at, is merely beating JB convincingly that year considered some sort of failure? And that's not taking into account his tyre blow-out at Spain while running 2nd, his gearbox failure running 4th in Hungary and his gearbox penalty and failure at Japan.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 10 November 2012 - 23:30.


#2378 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 23:28

Not sure what you're getting at, is merely beating JB convincingly that year some sort of faure? And that's not taking into account his tyre blow-out at Spain while running 2nd, his gearbox failure running 4th in Hungary and his gearbox penalty and failure at Japan.


There I wanted to get. Thank you.

#2379 whitevisor

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 00:10

First driver in history that beats his teammate in every single way and yet doesn't score more points than him.


The last time I checked Hamilton has more points than Button in 2012.

If you want to add points over three seasons lets wait till after Brazil.

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#2380 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 00:22

The last time I checked Hamilton has more points than Button in 2012.

If you want to add points over three seasons lets wait till after Brazil.


Cool, let's wait then.

#2381 Lazy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:18

Andy Latham goes over to the dark side

JB hanging out with Andy Latham at MTC

Not fired then it seems.

#2382 f1fastestlap

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:58

James Allen recently posted an article.....HOW THE POINTS, AND THE TITLE SLIPPED AWAY FROM LEWIS HAMILTON.

If Lewis and Jenson are both equal as some may feel, then James Allen would have had a hard time writing this article.

http://www.jamesalle...lewis-hamilton/


:up:
Good article. Seems a bit strange no one here as commented on this article yet...

#2383 Lazy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:26

:up:
Good article. Seems a bit strange no one here as commented on this article yet...


They have, a lot.

Strangely they seem to omit all the qualifiers Allen puts in his article.

Edited by Lazy, 11 November 2012 - 09:27.


#2384 Peter Perfect

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:27

Andy Latham goes over to the dark side

JB hanging out with Andy Latham at MTC

Not fired then it seems.

Nope, contrary to rumours on this thread from Hamilton fans that he'd been fired he'd actually been on paternity leave. Looks like he's back now though :)

:up:
Good article. Seems a bit strange no one here as commented on this article yet...

Well, if comments for it should go anywhere they should probably go here.

#2385 Lazy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:36

Nope, contrary to rumours on this thread from Hamilton fans that he'd been fired he'd actually been on paternity leave. Looks like he's back now though :)


It would be amusing if he became Jenson's RE next year :)

#2386 MP422

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 15:52

I was replying to this post:



Spain was not a normal performance from JB, sure they do happen, but it's not a 'good indication' of the relative performance between LH and him. If it was, then Hamilton would regularly finish 30+ secs ahead of JB, which in reality only happens very occasionally.


Fine then i'm going to have to add Monaco as a indicator and also Montreal.... what do you say to that ?

#2387 whitevisor

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:07

It would be amusing if he became Jenson's RE next year :)



That pic looks like they are discussing the best way to make Lewis' car grind to a halt in Texas. :rotfl:

Posted Image

Andy: "Sounds good Jenson. What lap must we do it on then?"
Jenson: "Hmm - 24?, nope to close to last time... lap 60? Wait! there is no lap 60 in COTA, lets ask Jessie... Yeah.. i'll text Jessie!"

 ;)

Edited by whitevisor, 13 November 2012 - 01:09.


#2388 BigBadBless

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:34

First driver in history that beats his teammate in every single way and yet doesn't score more points than him.


What do you mean first driver in history to do that? Have you specifically gone through every teammate pairing and decided whether a dominant driver has ever before finished behind in a points tally? Or are you just saying that to over-emphasise your very weak point?

#2389 BillBald

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 13:28

It would be amusing if he became Jenson's RE next year :)


Well, that was clearly Andy's plan all along... He messed up Lewis' races deliberately, so he would leave the team.

Or maybe Andy's plan was for Lewis to take him to Merc where he'll get a better pension plan.

Or maybe... there has to be a hidden agenda somewhere, we just need to find it... all will become clear.

:)



#2390 BillBald

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 13:30

Fine then i'm going to have to add Monaco as a indicator and also Montreal.... what do you say to that ?


3 bad races in a season... not exactly a world record.



#2391 Burtros

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 13:30

What do you mean first driver in history to do that? Have you specifically gone through every teammate pairing and decided whether a dominant driver has ever before finished behind in a points tally? Or are you just saying that to over-emphasise your very weak point?


He doesnt have a point. He is plain wrong. Ignore would be my advice.

#2392 Kvothe

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:55

Well, that was clearly Andy's plan all along... He messed up Lewis' races deliberately, so he would leave the team.

Or maybe Andy's plan was for Lewis to take him to Merc where he'll get a better pension plan.

Or maybe... there has to be a hidden agenda somewhere, we just need to find it... all will become clear.

:)


Nah he just appeared somewhat incompetent to a few of us, seemingly backed up by him being replaced by Mark Temple.



#2393 Kvothe

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:56

It would be amusing if he became Jenson's RE next year :)


More amusing to us Lewis fans, I'm sure :)

#2394 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:24

He doesnt have a point. He is plain wrong. Ignore would be my advice.


Seeing that your favourite driver is Button I think you need to learn the meaning of irony. Then read my post again.
BTW I've just ignored you.

Edited by MrMontecarlo, 13 November 2012 - 19:25.


#2395 Peter Perfect

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:25

Nah he just appeared somewhat incompetent to a few of us, seemingly backed up by him being replaced by Mark Temple.

I wouldn't want a wild rumour getting out of hand and being believed.

http://totalf1.com/f...n_in_Singapore/

Lewis Hamilton has a new race engineer for the next few races, starting with the Singapore GP.

The McLaren driver’s chief race engineer is usually Andy Latham, but he is on paternity leave at present.

The British team said that Latham will be on leave “for a few races”.

During that time, Hamilton’s usual performance engineer Mark Temple has stepped into the main role, beginning with this weekend’s Singapore grand prix.


http://www.mclaren.c...earn-is-amazing

Andy Latham is Vodafone McLaren Mercedes’ race engineer for Lewis Hamilton, and just before he got on a plane to go to India for the inaugural Grand Prix at the Buddh Circuit, we spoke to him about how the team and drivers get ready for a brand new race at a brand new circuit.



#2396 senna da silva

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:43

Who wants to bet that Lewis has at least one more failure this year, either pitstop/strategy or mechanical? Personally I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't finish either race.

#2397 Kvothe

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:53

I wouldn't want a wild rumour getting out of hand and being believed.


You should have bolded the word seemingly as well considering it gives my sentence a drastically different meaning. I also think if you read frequently you will have noticed that the fact he had gone on Paternity leave was known and was revealed by the fifth driver during singpore free practice, what many were questioning was the length of it, and the reasons why.

Anyway I'm waiting for an actual quote from

Hamilton fans that he'd been fired


It will also be interesting to see whether Mark Temple remains Lewis' race engineer was the last two races.

#2398 Lazy

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:58

More amusing to us Lewis fans, I'm sure :)


Yeah, until he seems to be doing a fine job for Jenson and it's whoever's Lewis' RE is at Mercedes who's the idiot.

#2399 Kvothe

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:16

Yeah, until he seems to be doing a fine job for Jenson and it's whoever's Lewis' RE is at Mercedes who's the idiot.


Well considering Jenson will probably have balance problems in half of the races, I'd look forward to working out how we could tell.

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#2400 Peter Perfect

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:55

You should have bolded the word seemingly as well considering it gives my sentence a drastically different meaning. I also think if you read frequently you will have noticed that the fact he had gone on Paternity leave was known and was revealed by the fifth driver during singpore free practice, what many were questioning was the length of it, and the reasons why.

Anyway I'm waiting for an actual quote from
...

I admit defeat...I can't be arsed searching through hundreds of posts. What about an implication that he's lost his job because he was incompetent? There's certainly no mention of him being replaced because he was on paternity leave.

Nah he just appeared somewhat incompetent to a few of us, seemingly backed up by him being replaced by Mark Temple.


...
It will also be interesting to see whether Mark Temple remains Lewis' race engineer was the last two races.

Ah yes, interesting. Because if that happens the only reason would be because he was incompetent and certainly not for a myriad of other reasons? Or am I reading too much into the combination of this and your last quote and you actually meant it in a different way?