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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#201 Burtros

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:52

this threads done for me bar the shouting. It was never just about performance on track - you can go back to my first post when JB was announced at McLaren where I say as much.

Massive JB win - came into Lewis team, made it is own, ran him closer than anyone would have through possible, beat him in 2011, end of 2012 its Lewis who is leaving with dissapointment. In March 2010 no one saw this coming, no one would have dared think Jenson could do this much. I always imagined if Lewis quit McLaren it would devastate the team - it hasnt and that speaks volumes for Jenson and the faith the team have in him.

Irrelevant of the score in points at the end of this year, which I think Hamilton will win, and trying to leave my own personal preferance towards Jenson at the door, While I belive history will show that Lewis was unquestionalbley the faster of the two, the bigger picture will show an increase in Jensons stock, and a decrease in Lewis stock. The discussions will go on forever and become legendary because its close, so close that some Hamilton fans just cant face it.

Egg on the face of those who predicted Jenson as an undeserving WDC would get beaten by Lewis worse than Heikki.

Edited by Burtros, 29 September 2012 - 10:53.


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#202 superdelphinus

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:44

I think it's a bit early to be saying that. If Hamilton wasn't there this season we could be talking about Mclaren's worst season for years

#203 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:50

I think it's a bit early to be saying that. If Hamilton wasn't there this season we could be talking about Mclaren's worst season for years


Ditto for Button in 2011 (obviously). Hamilton's extra points are currently keeping McLaren ahead of Ferrari in the WCC, but who knows what the final situation will be.

By the way, Jenson has two wins this year (with perhaps more to come), and that is what will count for him in the final evaluation of his career.

#204 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:56

At least the JB supporting LH stuff can be put to rest now. There is zero reason for him to move over should the situation arise.

#205 Juggles

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:04

At least the JB supporting LH stuff can be put to rest now. There is zero reason for him to move over should the situation arise.


McLaren still want the WDC but Hamilton needs a bigger gap than he has at the moment. Japan and Korea are crucial. If he can take good points off Alonso in both races and be ahead of Button then McLaren will still consider it. Not that it's a relevant consideration on the basis of the previous 14 races, Hamilton has been ahead almost all the time.

I still recognise that Button could beat Hamilton this season. Frankly I find that depressing and slightly comical.

#206 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:09

McLaren still want the WDC but Hamilton needs a bigger gap than he has at the moment. Japan and Korea are crucial. If he can take good points off Alonso in both races and be ahead of Button then McLaren will still consider it. Not that it's a relevant consideration on the basis of the previous 14 races, Hamilton has been ahead almost all the time.

I still recognise that Button could beat Hamilton this season. Frankly I find that depressing and slightly comical.


Their priority will be the WCC, I really don't see why they should be too bothered about the WDC seeing as the No1 sticker would then pass to Merc.

#207 SunnyENTP

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:12

At least the JB supporting LH stuff can be put to rest now. There is zero reason for him to move over should the situation arise.



The chances fo it arsing are slim and none, Button was hardly in position to help, even dire Massa had more situations to move over to Alonso than Button would have if he was a number 2

#208 PretentiousBread

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:14

Their priority will be the WCC, I really don't see why they should be too bothered about the WDC seeing as the No1 sticker would then pass to Merc.


Asides from the fact that they win a title?

#209 Juggles

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:17

Their priority will be the WCC, I really don't see why they should be too bothered about the WDC seeing as the No1 sticker would then pass to Merc.


But if Hamilton somehow wins the WDC the trophy will be going back to Woking rather than Monaco. It's silverware and the number 1 is not going to be at McLaren next year anyway. If anything they might want to go out an high with Hamilton, particularly as this split doesn't seem to be as venemous as some we've seen. If Button needs to move over in the last race to give Hamilton the championship I am sure they will ask him to.

#210 stanga

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:17

this threads done for me bar the shouting. It was never just about performance on track - you can go back to my first post when JB was announced at McLaren where I say as much.

Massive JB win - came into Lewis team, made it is own, ran him closer than anyone would have through possible, beat him in 2011, end of 2012 its Lewis who is leaving with dissapointment. In March 2010 no one saw this coming, no one would have dared think Jenson could do this much. I always imagined if Lewis quit McLaren it would devastate the team - it hasnt and that speaks volumes for Jenson and the faith the team have in him.

Irrelevant of the score in points at the end of this year, which I think Hamilton will win, and trying to leave my own personal preferance towards Jenson at the door, While I belive history will show that Lewis was unquestionalbley the faster of the two, the bigger picture will show an increase in Jensons stock, and a decrease in Lewis stock. The discussions will go on forever and become legendary because its close, so close that some Hamilton fans just cant face it.

Egg on the face of those who predicted Jenson as an undeserving WDC would get beaten by Lewis worse than Heikki.


Let's not get too triumphant just yet. Ironic given your last sentence...

#211 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:17

Asides from the fact that they win a title?


It would be a very small moment of glory and not worth hacking off your remaining driver for. They still need to score points for the WCC and that should be their target.

#212 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:21

The chances fo it arsing are slim and none, Button was hardly in position to help, even dire Massa had more situations to move over to Alonso than Button would have if he was a number 2


Same old bashing. :rolleyes:

#213 PretentiousBread

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:25

this threads done for me bar the shouting. It was never just about performance on track - you can go back to my first post when JB was announced at McLaren where I say as much.

Massive JB win - came into Lewis team, made it is own, ran him closer than anyone would have through possible, beat him in 2011, end of 2012 its Lewis who is leaving with dissapointment. In March 2010 no one saw this coming, no one would have dared think Jenson could do this much. I always imagined if Lewis quit McLaren it would devastate the team - it hasnt and that speaks volumes for Jenson and the faith the team have in him.

Irrelevant of the score in points at the end of this year, which I think Hamilton will win, and trying to leave my own personal preferance towards Jenson at the door, While I belive history will show that Lewis was unquestionalbley the faster of the two, the bigger picture will show an increase in Jensons stock, and a decrease in Lewis stock. The discussions will go on forever and become legendary because its close, so close that some Hamilton fans just cant face it.

Egg on the face of those who predicted Jenson as an undeserving WDC would get beaten by Lewis worse than Heikki.


That's just a question of expectations then. JB came to McLaren to measure himself against LH, he's said as much in so many words. Hamilton's personal expectations were higher, he was aiming solely at winning titles. Just because JB is happy and Hamilton leaves 'disappointed' doesn't mean JB has 'won'. Assuming Hamilton goes on to finish ahead of Button this year, your outlook would be like claiming Andy Murray won against Federer in a match that he lost two sets to one, just because no one gave him a hope of even winning a set.

#214 PretentiousBread

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:26

It would be a very small moment of glory and not worth hacking off your remaining driver for. They still need to score points for the WCC and that should be their target.


Alonso in '06? Think the team were pretty glad to have won him that title, even knowing that he was leaving them.

#215 Juggles

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:27

It would be a very small moment of glory and not worth hacking off your remaining driver for. They still need to score points for the WCC and that should be their target.


A racing team's history is defined by the titles they win. In no way would it be "very small." It would be huge, even for a team with the pedigree of McLaren.

#216 Lazy

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:27

McLaren still want the WDC but Hamilton needs a bigger gap than he has at the moment. Japan and Korea are crucial. If he can take good points off Alonso in both races and be ahead of Button then McLaren will still consider it. Not that it's a relevant consideration on the basis of the previous 14 races, Hamilton has been ahead almost all the time.

I still recognise that Button could beat Hamilton this season. Frankly I find that depressing and slightly comical.


What's comical is the blinkered resistance to the fact that Button has matched Lewis over their time together. The endless excuses and conspiracy theories, all bad things that happen to Lewis somebody else's fault, all the bad things that happen to Jenson, his own fault. Jenson the political snake etc.

Now it seems that Lewis is suffering from the same delusion and failing to take a close look in the mirror. I fear he will find the same face in the mirror when he gets to Mercedes.

Edited by Lazy, 29 September 2012 - 12:33.


#217 robefc

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:30

It would be a very small moment of glory and not worth hacking off your remaining driver for. They still need to score points for the WCC and that should be their target.


One of thew two championships that are fought for each year in F1 and the one that, by MW's own assessment, is the more important one is 'just a very small moment of glory'?

#218 Juggles

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:38

What's comical is the blinkered resistance to the fact that Button has matched Lewis over their time together. The endless excuses and conspiracy theories, all bad things that happen to Lewis somebody else's fault, all the bad things that happen to Jenson, his own fault. Jenson the political snake etc.

Now it seems that Lewis is suffering from the same delusion and failing to take a close look in the mirror. I fear he find the same face in the mirror when he gets to Mercedes.


My post wasn't about their time together, just 2012. Hamilton won 2010, Button won 2011, both deservedly. I know I can't fully escape from bias but I try to be as objective as I can: from that position, I believe Hamilton has been on a different level to Button this year. I know you're a fan of the "luck evens itself out" maxim but looking at the first fourteen races with the (admittedly incomplete) information we have access to and the current points gap between them, I just think that's nonsense.

Edited by Juggles, 29 September 2012 - 12:38.


#219 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:47

One of thew two championships that are fought for each year in F1 and the one that, by MW's own assessment, is the more important one is 'just a very small moment of glory'?


As I said, IMHO the WCC should be the priority and I would not ask a driver who is remaining to move over for one who is leaving.

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#220 Peter Perfect

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:51

My post wasn't about their time together, just 2012. Hamilton won 2010, Button won 2011, both deservedly. I know I can't fully escape from bias but I try to be as objective as I can: from that position, I believe Hamilton has been on a different level to Button this year. I know you're a fan of the "luck evens itself out" maxim but looking at the first fourteen races with the (admittedly incomplete) information we have access to and the current points gap between them, I just think that's nonsense.


I quite agree that Hamilton has driven extremely well this year, although I'd argue that the difference between them has been magnified by Buttons set-up issues. But my view of the 'luck' discussion is that like Lazy says there's been an effort to polarise the perception of Hamiltons misfortunes this year i.e. every time Hamilton has had an issue it's not been his fault and every time Buttons had an issue he's been to blame. That's not to say Hamilton has not suffered more but that a bit of perspective is in order.


#221 robefc

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:53

As I said, IMHO the WCC should be the priority and I would not ask a driver who is remaining to move over for one who is leaving.


Well apparently they would never ask jenson to move over anyway, they would wait for him to offer so it's a non issue ;)



#222 P123

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:53

As I said, IMHO the WCC should be the priority and I would not ask a driver who is remaining to move over for one who is leaving.


You would if by doing so there was a potential for more WCC points.

#223 PretentiousBread

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:54

As I said, IMHO the WCC should be the priority and I would not ask a driver who is remaining to move over for one who is leaving.


Well if McLaren shared that view then it'd be a pretty damning indictment of them, i.e deliberately sacrificing the possibility of a title to not hurt one of their driver's feelings. They exist to win, or so they keep telling us.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 29 September 2012 - 13:11.


#224 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:55

You would if by doing so there was a potential for more WCC points.


Maybe, but that happens less often than trying to boost a drivers WDC points.


#225 Lazy

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:56

My post wasn't about their time together, just 2012. Hamilton won 2010, Button won 2011, both deservedly. I know I can't fully escape from bias but I try to be as objective as I can: from that position, I believe Hamilton has been on a different level to Button this year. I know you're a fan of the "luck evens itself out" maxim but looking at the first fourteen races with the (admittedly incomplete) information we have access to and the current points gap between them, I just think that's nonsense.


Really, and how much blame would have been lain at McLarens door if he had suffered the setup issues that Button had? You only have to look at the aftermath to Australia to answer that question.
Righteous indignation about clutch settings and how the car was designed for Button, how the Pirelli's handicapped "real" racers, awful strategy given to Lewis.

#226 PretentiousBread

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:03

Really, and how much blame would have been lain at McLarens door if he had suffered the setup issues that Button had? You only have to look at the aftermath to Australia to answer that question.
Righteous indignation about clutch settings and how the car was designed for Button, how the Pirelli's handicapped "real" racers, awful strategy given to Lewis.


Hamilton has never encountered that type of slump before in terms of basic driving performance. JB on the other hand does have slumps of this kind, pretty much every year barring 2011, albeit not usually as sustained as this year's was. Therefore it would be logical to question if it really was Hamilton's fault if he endured that type of slump, whereas Button has previous form for it.

In any case, Hamilton's pace has been rather good this year, so no worries.

#227 Juggles

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:06

I quite agree that Hamilton has driven extremely well this year, although I'd argue that the difference between them has been magnified by Buttons set-up issues. But my view of the 'luck' discussion is that like Lazy says there's been an effort to polarise the perception of Hamiltons misfortunes this year i.e. every time Hamilton has had an issue it's not been his fault and every time Buttons had an issue he's been to blame. That's not to say Hamilton has not suffered more but that a bit of perspective is in order.


I can't argue with that, well said. Hamilton hasn't made a visible driving error in a race to my mind (some argue Valencia) and I believe Button has only made one, the Malaysia incident. Perception has definitely been skewed by Button's bizarre six race hiatus and it's hard to judge how responsible or not he was for that. Certainly putting that period to one side he has been where he was for the previous two years of their relationship; behind Hamilton in qualifying with similar race pace.

Edited by Juggles, 29 September 2012 - 13:11.


#228 Lights

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:09

5 - If McLaren are doing well but not leading there would always be 'What if Lewis was at McLaren'

Oh boy, I can't wait.

however Lewis vs his shadow would still create traffic.

Lol, too true.

#229 Peter Perfect

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:12

Hamilton has never encountered that type of slump before in terms of basic driving performance. JB on the other hand does have slumps of this kind, pretty much every year barring 2011, albeit not usually as sustained as this year's was. Therefore it would be logical to question if it really was Hamilton's fault if he endured that type of slump, whereas Button has previous form for it.

In any case, Hamilton's pace has been rather good this year, so no worries.

Can you provide more detail? I've been a fan of Buttons since he came into F1 in 2000 and off the top of my head only 2009 and 2012 spring to mind when thinking about slumps (both tyre temperature related).

#230 ZooL

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:17

I can't argue with that, well said. Hamilton hasn't made a visible driving error in a race to my mind (some argue Valencia) and I believe Button has only made one, the Malaysia incident. Perception has definitely been skewed by Button's bizarre six race hiatus and it's hard to judge how responsible or not he was for that. Certainly putting that period to one side he has been where he was for the previous two years of their relationship; behind Hamilton in qualifying with similar race pace.

Button lead the team down that setup alley. He's already admitted he did so. The team had to stop him and say enough is enough, anyone remember the radio conv of Button and his engineer...
Button is responsible for setting up his own car - it is his fault for not choosing to copying Hamilton's setup sooner rather than as he did later.

#231 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:21

Button lead the team down that setup alley. He's already admitted he did so. The team had to stop him and say enough is enough, anyone remember the radio conv of Button and his engineer...
Button is responsible for setting up his own car - it is his fault for not choosing to copying Hamilton's setup sooner rather than as he did later.


He has?

#232 Peter Perfect

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:25

Button lead the team down that setup alley. He's already admitted he did so. The team had to stop him and say enough is enough, anyone remember the radio conv of Button and his engineer...
Button is responsible for setting up his own car - it is his fault for not choosing to copying Hamilton's setup sooner rather than as he did later.

They did?

#233 PretentiousBread

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:25

Can you provide more detail? I've been a fan of Buttons since he came into F1 in 2000 and off the top of my head only 2009 and 2012 spring to mind when thinking about slumps (both tyre temperature related).


Just off the top of my head he had poor pace several weekends in 2010, Silverstone, Hungary, Korea. 2008 he was outperformed by Rubens. 2007 him and Rubens were pretty nip and tuck. I should have thrown in 2004 as well as 2011 for years where he was consistently on it. Before McLaren, he never had the sort of consistent barometer that Lewis Hamilton provided when judging relative pace, so it's a bit obscure before that, who knows how we would have judged his pace had he had Hamilton in the other car the whole time. 2001 is another year that springs to mind though.

#234 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:27

Hamilton has never encountered that type of slump before in terms of basic driving performance. JB on the other hand does have slumps of this kind, pretty much every year barring 2011, albeit not usually as sustained as this year's was. Therefore it would be logical to question if it really was Hamilton's fault if he endured that type of slump, whereas Button has previous form for it.


No, but he has encountered other types of slump.

There is talk here of the perception that Lewis would easily, and comprehensively, beat Jenson when he joined the team in 2010. I remember that. Jenson has faired better than expected, no question. Does that mean he "won"? In ultimate career stakes, I believe he is better positioned than before to add to his career tallies through 2013 (perhaps even the WDC) and possibly after. He is also better positioned to hold on to his McLaren seat at the end of his current contract now that Lewis has left (leaving him as he only British driver and WDC on he team).

Lewis's move may pay dividends in a few years, but it could also be catastrophically unsuccessful (something Jenson knows all about). Jenson will, I believe, be able to add a few GP wins to is record every year he is at McLaren. And which of them is more likely to win the WDC again?




#235 Lights

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:30

Just off the top of my head he had poor pace several weekends in 2010, Silverstone, Hungary, Korea. 2008 he was outperformed by Rubens. 2007 him and Rubens were pretty nip and tuck. I should have thrown in 2004 as well as 2011 for years where he was consistently on it. Before McLaren, he never had the sort of consistent barometer that Lewis Hamilton provided when judging relative pace, so it's a bit obscure before that, who knows how we would have judged his pace had he had Hamilton in the other car the whole time. 2001 is another year that springs to mind though.

Well if we're talking about 'slumps' then it hasn't really happened before. Even in the second half of 2009 he wasn't actually slower than Barrichello in any race. In 2010 he indeed had some poor weekends but they weren't connected.

#236 ZooL

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:44

He has?



They did?

It is a well known fact now that Button had to resort to copying Hamiltons setup because he couldn't do it himself and he got "lost and confused".

What's he gonna do next year when he can't copy Hamilton?

Copy Perez? lets hope for his sake Perez has some setup skills.

Edited by ZooL, 29 September 2012 - 13:45.


#237 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:48

It is a well known fact now that Button had to resort to copying Hamiltons setup because he couldn't do it himself and he got "lost and confused".

What's he gonna do next year when he can't copy Hamilton?

Copy Perez? lets hope for his sake Perez has some setup skills.


Ah, it's a well known fact is it? And the team had absolutely nothing to do with the setup decisions.

#238 gincarnated

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:52

Really, and how much blame would have been lain at McLarens door if he had suffered the setup issues that Button had? You only have to look at the aftermath to Australia to answer that question.
Righteous indignation about clutch settings and how the car was designed for Button, how the Pirelli's handicapped "real" racers, awful strategy given to Lewis.

Are you serious? I seem to remember everyone saying that Button knew how to set up a car better than Lewis before his slump this season. Had it happened to Lewis everyone and their mother would just be pilling in on him, much worse than what Button got. I'm talking about the media here, not so much the fans. Also, did lewis not have his clutch settings alters on the parade lap? That and the terrible strategies shouldn't be up for debate.



#239 ZooL

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:55

Ah, it's a well known fact is it? And the team had absolutely nothing to do with the setup decisions.

If there is one dominant area that the driver has the biggest say it is setting up his own car.

Take your pick:

https://www.google.c...lient=firefox-a

http://www.motorspor...n-copies-setup/





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#240 tkulla

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:56

Just off the top of my head he had poor pace several weekends in 2010, Silverstone, Hungary, Korea. 2008 he was outperformed by Rubens. 2007 him and Rubens were pretty nip and tuck. I should have thrown in 2004 as well as 2011 for years where he was consistently on it. Before McLaren, he never had the sort of consistent barometer that Lewis Hamilton provided when judging relative pace, so it's a bit obscure before that, who knows how we would have judged his pace had he had Hamilton in the other car the whole time. 2001 is another year that springs to mind though.


Here's the old comparison to Rubens as an insult line. But think about this - Maldanado is now considered a qualifying specialist (maybe even an ace), and last year Rubens outqualified him 11-8. Jenson and Rubens were just about dead even in qualifying during their time together, so clearly Jenson isn't a bad qualifier - he just needs a car with the right setup window.



#241 gincarnated

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:57

He has?

I think he's refering to some interview where Button stated he was quite proud that the team were listening to him in regards to the direction of the cars development.

#242 Clatter

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:59

If there is one dominant area that the driver has the biggest say it is setting up his own car.

Take your pick:

https://www.google.c...lient=firefox-a

http://www.motorspor...n-copies-setup/


And they are also led by the team and their race engineer. The team took him down a blind alley and so they reset to a known setup that worked.


#243 ZooL

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:05

And they are also led by the team and their race engineer. The team took him down a blind alley and so they reset to a known setup that worked.

:yawnface:

#244 inca_roads

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:10

What's comical is the blinkered resistance to the fact that Button has matched Lewis over their time together.


No. He just hasn't. There's nothing blinkered about realising that, believe me.

#245 thesham01

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:26

My post wasn't about their time together, just 2012. Hamilton won 2010, Button won 2011, both deservedly. I know I can't fully escape from bias but I try to be as objective as I can: from that position, I believe Hamilton has been on a different level to Button this year. I know you're a fan of the "luck evens itself out" maxim but looking at the first fourteen races with the (admittedly incomplete) information we have access to and the current points gap between them, I just think that's nonsense.


Of course its nonsense. Its just ignorant at best, and lying to the benefit of your driver at worst. And to be honest, I genuinely can't see how anyone would believe that the luck between Button and Hamilton has been equal over the 3 years, it has to be bias.

Any sane person can see that Hamilton should be close to 100 points clear of Button this year, and deservedly.

#246 Lazy

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:27

No. He just hasn't. There's nothing blinkered about realising that, believe me.


Check the stats.

#247 Lazy

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:28

Any sane person can see that Hamilton should be close to 100 points clear of Button this year, and deservedly.


:stoned:

#248 Dalton007

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:30

Well, Jenson was the first driver to beat Lewis over a season. I'll take that considering just how quick Lewis is, but when Jenson has a set-up to his liking, just like Prost, he is unbeatable.

#249 Lights

Lights
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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:30

Some are once again forgetting how illogical the Pirelli tyres have been this year and how most teams struggled to understand them, and even now some still cannot adapt them to their car's characteristics (Mercedes). In the Bahrain weekend McLaren had a terrible time getting to grips with them. Jenson wants to be in complete control over his tyre management so his team put extra emphasis on getting them to work for him on a more consistent basis, they overthought it (as often the tyres defied logic) and they went the wrong way on setup resulting in 4 bad weekends. Since then he's been fine with the tyres and setup. Yes, he was partly to blame for this, and yes, McLaren was as well as they sometimes made it worse than it already was (Canada). Most of all, yes it has ruined his season. But there's no need for extrapolation on this. Only a week left till the next race guys, the first of the last 6...

#250 thesham01

thesham01
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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:34

:stoned:


Singapore and Barcelona plus all the pitstop errors, punctures and Maldonado's, and you would have Hamilton 90 odd points ahead.