Jump to content


Photo

Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3870 replies to this topic

#2451 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,034 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 14:21

Did it cross your mind that they understand the circumstances and probably have questioned him about it?

They probably have good reasons for thinking the way they do.

But ofc you know so much better that you can make definitive, insulting comments like this:



Don't make stupid comments if you don't want sarcastic replies.


The facts are that Button has struggled with set-up and tyres this season. That is all part of who he is as a driver.

For people to ignore that fact, or at least not discuss it openly as they did Hamilton, is embarassing. They didn't ignore Hamiltons woes last year as a once off; they defined him by it. You define him by it. So why should they be treated differently?

Advertisement

#2452 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 1,626 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 16 November 2012 - 14:41

It's a British thing. The British press are (predictably) a bit biased towards Button because he's a British driver with an image they like, driving for the top British team. He also has a good relationship with the British press and gives them good access. I would expect the rest of the world to have a more balanced view of JB.

Edited by bub, 16 November 2012 - 16:26.


#2453 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,529 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 16 November 2012 - 14:54

I don't think Phil Prew struggled at all with Lewis from 2007 to 2009. Weird that signs of struggle only appeared when Latham took over?

Unsurprising, though, that you wouldn't give this any thought...


Maybe Lewis growing stardom had an effect on how easy he became to deal with...
Not that I offer you an explanation, but I didn't say what I believed, I say what an alternative explanation could be.

#2454 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,529 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 16 November 2012 - 14:58

Button is the only man who could consistently struggle with set-up, and have a season like 2012 where it has consistently been shown his team-mate is better with the tyres, and still come out the other end with a reputation for great set-up and tyre abilities. Completely unscathed.
.


Your displaying quite a high level of misunderstanding here.
Being exceptional technically, does not guarantee finding a balance that suits a driving style.
The car might inherently bear characteristics that prevent it.
He has no reputation for being a designer / engineer.

#2455 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,529 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 16 November 2012 - 15:05

Its not about knowing, its about questioning.

Button deserves to be questioned after this season, but instead he has escaped any negative press (can you imagine if Hamilton had this season? In fact, Hamilton's 2011 was better than Buttons 2012, and Hamilton has been destroyed for 2011).

Zero negative press, and he strolls on through with his reputation completely intact. And not even intact, in better shape according to Davidson: 'more than held his own'. Nonsense.

I know you agree that he deserves to be questioned at the very least, as thats what you did with Hamilton last season... and thats putting it mildly. So enough with the sarcastic 'you know more than Brundle' talk.


So, blinded by anger that its not fair, rather than anything reasonable.
Button can't control what the press say about Hamilton.
Besides, I would say a mental collapse (Hamilton 11) is a worse situation than not suiting a car (button 12) irrespective of the points situation. To Hamiltons credit he screwed his head back on in 12 and to Buttons credit he has persevered this season. Being so at sea with the car in Canada, then winning with the same one, that he had worked hard with his engineers to find a balance with, by Spa, is enormously credible. How many drivers have Not fixed a situation like that, in season? Kimi 08 for example is a classic case of a top driver not getting on top of their balance issue. So come on, give credit where credit is due. JB did not throw in the towel.


#2456 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 1,626 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 16 November 2012 - 15:26

I think it makes sense that Jenson could give great technical feedback and also struggle with balance.
The same thing that causes him to struggle so much with balance, extreme sensitivity to changes in handling & feeling, is the same thing that enables him to provide such accurate and precise feedback.

#2457 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,034 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 15:32

So, blinded by anger that its not fair, rather than anything reasonable.
Button can't control what the press say about Hamilton.
Besides, I would say a mental collapse (Hamilton 11) is a worse situation than not suiting a car (button 12) irrespective of the points situation. To Hamiltons credit he screwed his head back on in 12 and to Buttons credit he has persevered this season. Being so at sea with the car in Canada, then winning with the same one, that he had worked hard with his engineers to find a balance with, by Spa, is enormously credible. How many drivers have Not fixed a situation like that, in season? Kimi 08 for example is a classic case of a top driver not getting on top of their balance issue. So come on, give credit where credit is due. JB did not throw in the towel.


You're making so many assumptions there, yet you jumped on the 'lets not make assumptions and accept the points' bandwagon a few days ago.

There has only been maybe 3/4 cars in Buttons history that have apparently suited him. Thats because he doesnt have the ability and talent. Its his fault, not the cars. When will people realise that.

The most accurate post I made in regards this argument is the one you unsurprisingly ignored.

Edited by thesham01, 16 November 2012 - 15:33.


#2458 stevesingo

stevesingo
  • Member

  • 121 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 16 November 2012 - 17:03

Its not about knowing, its about questioning.

Button deserves to be questioned after this season, but instead he has escaped any negative press (can you imagine if Hamilton had this season? In fact, Hamilton's 2011 was better than Buttons 2012, and Hamilton has been destroyed for 2011).

Zero negative press, and he strolls on through with his reputation completely intact. And not even intact, in better shape according to Davidson: 'more than held his own'. Nonsense.

I know you agree that he deserves to be questioned at the very least, as thats what you did with Hamilton last season... and thats putting it mildly. So enough with the sarcastic 'you know more than Brundle' talk.



You're making so many assumptions there, yet you jumped on the 'lets not make assumptions and accept the points' bandwagon a few days ago.

There has only been maybe 3/4 cars in Buttons history that have apparently suited him. Thats because he doesnt have the ability and talent. Its his fault, not the cars. When will people realise that.

The most accurate post I made in regards this argument is the one you unsurprisingly ignored.


I did question LH's performance advantage some posts back (2034), but I guess by the lack of response from yourself suggests you didn,t read it. My explanation, I believe is reasonable, and similar to what Rinehart stated in that the car has inherent characteristics that do not suit JB and are more aligned to LH, in that the car does not generate tyre temps easily. LH's scruff of the neck style compensates for that, JB's more economic style exasperates the issue.

That is the way I see it. If the tables were turned with the car generating too much temps, and LH was overheating the tyres and suffering high deg, with JB managing. Would you be saying LH is shit and spitting venom about LH. Probably not. You would be blaming the team and Whitmarsh.


Edited by MightyMoose, 16 November 2012 - 17:30.
Removed: Bigot <-- Clearly a personal attack


#2459 femi

femi
  • Member

  • 6,072 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 16 November 2012 - 17:08

So, blinded by anger that its not fair, rather than anything reasonable.
Button can't control what the press say about Hamilton.
Besides, I would say a mental collapse (Hamilton 11) is a worse situation than not suiting a car (button 12) irrespective of the points situation. To Hamiltons credit he screwed his head back on in 12 and to Buttons credit he has persevered this season. Being so at sea with the car in Canada, then winning with the same one, that he had worked hard with his engineers to find a balance with, by Spa, is enormously credible. How many drivers have Not fixed a situation like that, in season? Kimi 08 for example is a classic case of a top driver not getting on top of their balance issue. So come on, give credit where credit is due. JB did not throw in the towel.


Listening to JB's feedback, one can be forgiven for thinking the car was one nice looking piece of sh!t, if one didn't know better.

Advertisement

#2460 andrewf1

andrewf1
  • Member

  • 256 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 16 November 2012 - 17:16

I did question LH's performance advantage some posts back (2034), but I guess by the lack of response from yourself suggests you didn,t read it. My explanation, I believe is reasonable, and similar to what Rinehart stated in that the car has inherent characteristics that do not suit JB and are more aligned to LH, in that the car does not generate tyre temps easily. LH's scruff of the neck style compensates for that, JB's more economic style exasperates the issue.

That is the way I see it. If the tables were turned with the car generating too much temps, and LH was overheating the tyres and suffering high deg, with JB managing. Would you be saying LH is shit and spitting venom about LH. Probably not. You would be blaming the team and Whitmarsh.


The fault in your thinking is that you view drivers as constants. They can adapt you know. It's one of the defining abilities of their driving talent ;)

Edited by MightyMoose, 16 November 2012 - 17:30.


#2461 revlec

revlec
  • Member

  • 2,721 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 17:26

I did question LH's performance advantage some posts back (2034), but I guess by the lack of response from yourself suggests you didn,t read it. My explanation, I believe is reasonable, and similar to what Rinehart stated in that the car has inherent characteristics that do not suit JB and are more aligned to LH, in that the car does not generate tyre temps easily. LH's scruff of the neck style compensates for that, JB's more economic style exasperates the issue.

That is the way I see it. If the tables were turned with the car generating too much temps, and LH was overheating the tyres and suffering high deg, with JB managing. Would you be saying LH is shit and spitting venom about LH. Probably not. You would be blaming the team and Whitmarsh.


Suffering high deg? HAM can adapt to any kind of cars(type) and still be fast. that's the difference.

Edited by MightyMoose, 16 November 2012 - 17:31.


#2462 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,034 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 17:36

I did question LH's performance advantage some posts back (2034), but I guess by the lack of response from yourself suggests you didn,t read it. My explanation, I believe is reasonable, and similar to what Rinehart stated in that the car has inherent characteristics that do not suit JB and are more aligned to LH, in that the car does not generate tyre temps easily. LH's scruff of the neck style compensates for that, JB's more economic style exasperates the issue.

That is the way I see it. If the tables were turned with the car generating too much temps, and LH was overheating the tyres and suffering high deg, with JB managing. Would you be saying LH is shit and spitting venom about LH. Probably not. You would be blaming the team and Whitmarsh.

You are a bigot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry


My point being that he has struggled with too many machines in his time in F1 for this year to be the exception to the rule.

You seem to think 2011 was his norm. It is more than likely not; blown exhaust gases helped him hugely towards to back end of the year. Of course I could also theorise that the 2011 car was perfectly built for Button, making it an exception, and 2012 is back to a car which neither suits him nor hinders him. I could theorise that it suits him, just less than 2011 did. Of course that would be making assumptions, and Button fans don't like assumptions... when its against their man anyway. You'll continue to make one about this car not suiting him though.

Would be nice if Button fans please decide whether we are allowing assumptions or not. It would be nice to know where the goal posts are, rather than them changing depending on whether it suits their man or not.

And getting back to my original point, which has been completely lost in the hatred of my posts; if Hamilton was having tyre issues because he was overheating them, then he would be called on it in the media, and his reputation would be harmed. Button has had a season of many flaws, and has breezed through without a scratch. Why don't people treat them equally, was my original point. It was nothing to do with hating Button, it was to do with the hate Hamilton would be getting if he had had Buttons season.




#2463 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 7,404 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 16 November 2012 - 17:49

JB may give plentiful detailed info, but unless the team and himself can interpret that into a good setup it's worthless noise. Perhaps such faith in JB's input is what led them down the blind alley earlier this season which resulted in them fighting with the likes of Lotus whilst the guy who apparently can't setup a car fought for victories.

JB does appear to have a weakness in getting heat into the front tyres (something overlooked by many journos who seem unable to understand that tyre management doesn't just mean tyre preservation), but then again his early lap pace in Oz, derived from switching the tyres on in comparison to his teammate, is what enabled him to comfortably beat Hamilton. What happened to that advantage? A fluke?

#2464 Obi Offiah

Obi Offiah
  • Member

  • 7,039 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 16 November 2012 - 17:53

JB may give plentiful detailed info, but unless the team and himself can interpret that into a good setup it's worthless noise. Perhaps such faith in JB's input is what led them down the blind alley earlier this season which resulted in them fighting with the likes of Lotus whilst the guy who apparently can't setup a car fought for victories.

JB does appear to have a weakness in getting heat into the front tyres (something overlooked by many journos who seem unable to understand that tyre management doesn't just mean tyre preservation), but then again his early lap pace in Oz, derived from switching the tyres on in comparison to his teammate, is what enabled him to comfortably beat Hamilton. What happened to that advantage? A fluke?

This is very true and can be likened to a driver providing very detailed handling feedback and chasing a balanced set-up during an FP1 session with a very green circuit.

#2465 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:14

JB may give plentiful detailed info, but unless the team and himself can interpret that into a good setup it's worthless noise. Perhaps such faith in JB's input is what led them down the blind alley earlier this season which resulted in them fighting with the likes of Lotus whilst the guy who apparently can't setup a car fought for victories.

JB does appear to have a weakness in getting heat into the front tyres (something overlooked by many journos who seem unable to understand that tyre management doesn't just mean tyre preservation), but then again his early lap pace in Oz, derived from switching the tyres on in comparison to his teammate, is what enabled him to comfortably beat Hamilton. What happened to that advantage? A fluke?


Maybe, but that would be the teams failing rather than the drivers, certainly that would have been argued if it was hamilton giving good feedback but the team failing to convert it into good setup.


#2466 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,034 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:18

Maybe, but that would be the teams failing rather than the drivers, certainly that would have been argued if it was hamilton giving good feedback but the team failing to convert it into good setup.


You called my comment stupid earlier, I responded with a reasonable explanation and question, I would appreciate it if you answered it.

#2467 Obi Offiah

Obi Offiah
  • Member

  • 7,039 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:22

Maybe, but that would be the teams failing rather than the drivers, certainly that would have been argued if it was hamilton giving good feedback but the team failing to convert it into good setup.

I believe giving good feedback is also about filtering out sensations that don't matter. In the end there is nothing such as a perfect car and the driver has to do his/her job and drive it as close to its limits as possible.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 16 November 2012 - 18:23.


#2468 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,529 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:26

You're making so many assumptions there, yet you jumped on the 'lets not make assumptions and accept the points' bandwagon a few days ago.

There has only been maybe 3/4 cars in Buttons history that have apparently suited him. Thats because he doesnt have the ability and talent. Its his fault, not the cars. When will people realise that.

The most accurate post I made in regards this argument is the one you unsurprisingly ignored.


So now you want to judge Buttons season based on all his seasons. Im not sure what your point is.

#2469 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:49

You called my comment stupid earlier, I responded with a reasonable explanation and question, I would appreciate it if you answered it.


The facts are that Button has struggled with set-up and tyres this season. That is all part of who he is as a driver.

Brundle is aware of Jensons whole career and is obviously of the opinion that this year is an anomaly.

For people to ignore that fact, or at least not discuss it openly as they did Hamilton, is embarassing. They didn't ignore Hamiltons woes last year as a once off; they defined him by it. You define him by it. So why should they be treated differently?


Nobody is ignoring that fact and I never defined Lewis by last season.

Edited by MightyMoose, 16 November 2012 - 19:29.
Removed: Don't listen to the voices. <-- Comment not necessary


#2470 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,034 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 19:06

Brundle is aware of Jensons whole career and is obviously of the opinion that this year is an anomaly.



Nobody is ignoring that fact and I never defined Lewis by last season.


So why not discuss it? Like they discussed Hamilton last year, why brush it under the carpet?

#2471 slmk

slmk
  • Member

  • 3,919 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 16 November 2012 - 19:30

JB may give plentiful detailed info, but unless the team and himself can interpret that into a good setup it's worthless noise. Perhaps such faith in JB's input is what led them down the blind alley earlier this season which resulted in them fighting with the likes of Lotus whilst the guy who apparently can't setup a car fought for victories.

JB does appear to have a weakness in getting heat into the front tyres (something overlooked by many journos who seem unable to understand that tyre management doesn't just mean tyre preservation), but then again his early lap pace in Oz, derived from switching the tyres on in comparison to his teammate, is what enabled him to comfortably beat Hamilton. What happened to that advantage? A fluke?


It seems so, based on the following 17 races so far.


#2472 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,759 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:05

So why not discuss it? Like they discussed Hamilton last year, why brush it under the carpet?

Are you saying that it hasn't been discussed constantly on this thread all year? Is there a new angle that you can bring?

#2473 ZooL

ZooL
  • Member

  • 2,063 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:20

Sham, Button is a media darling - thats why they don't really criticise him.

One example that really stood out for me was when Hamilton overtaken him on track for position.

The post race show did not replay or mention it at all. It was swept completely under the carpet.

When that happens the viewer should start to wonder whats going on...

#2474 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 8,627 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:26

Well, speaking of, Davidson in FP2 was funny today re Lew in Singapore but Crofty apparently didn't get the memo...
The bond is strong.

#2475 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,759 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:29

Sham, Button is a media darling - thats why they don't really criticise him.

One example that really stood out for me was when Hamilton overtaken him on track for position.

The post race show did not replay or mention it at all. It was swept completely under the carpet.

When that happens the viewer should start to wonder whats going on...

You make it sound as though the media are as obsessed with Button as you are.

#2476 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,034 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:35

Are you saying that it hasn't been discussed constantly on this thread all year? Is there a new angle that you can bring?


I'm talking the media.



#2477 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 6,655 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:39

Well, speaking of, Davidson in FP2 was funny today re Lew in Singapore but Crofty apparently didn't get the memo...
The bond is strong.


I missed FP2 and with Sky go there's no adequate replay service, what was said?

#2478 SerratedEdge

SerratedEdge
  • Member

  • 97 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 16 November 2012 - 22:49

Prost on Button and Hamilton

http://www.mirror.co...d-money-1438324

#2479 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 8,627 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:17

I missed FP2 and with Sky go there's no adequate replay service, what was said?

Well, Crofty was babbling about how Lew was robbed of an easy win in Singapore and Ant immidiately jumped in and said, no, no, Vettel was shadowing him all the time, it was far from over, bla, bla, he was just leading at that point, bla, bla.
Crofty sounded a bit surprised at Ant's response.

Oh, and BTW, no Latham in sight...

Edited by peroa, 17 November 2012 - 06:20.


Advertisement

#2480 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:19

But his praise of one racer, McLaren’s champion Jenson Button is unfaltering - a driver he gave his first F1 break to and whose smooth driving style is modelled on his own.

As Button prepares to contest the Sunday’s USA GP Prost said his svelte style means he has the same problems as the Frenchman himself did 20 years ago.

“Jenson is like I was, very easy on the car,” said Prost.

“With my driving style I really had a big problem with qualifying tyres and it was not something I could change myself.

“Sometimes we’ve seen it gives Jenson a good advantage and sometimes problems.

“He deserves to be world champion again but it depends on the tyres and the car.

“Things are more limited these days than when the team could do everything to give you the car you needed.

“The key is for Jenson to solve his Saturday problems and many more titles will come.”

But what does he know eh sham?


#2481 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 8,627 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:21

But his praise of one racer, McLaren’s champion Jenson Button is unfaltering - a driver he gave his first F1 break to and whose smooth driving style is modelled on his own.

As Button prepares to contest the Sunday’s USA GP Prost said his svelte style means he has the same problems as the Frenchman himself did 20 years ago.

“Jenson is like I was, very easy on the car,” said Prost.

“With my driving style I really had a big problem with qualifying tyres and it was not something I could change myself.

“Sometimes we’ve seen it gives Jenson a good advantage and sometimes problems.

“He deserves to be world champion again but it depends on the tyres and the car.

“Things are more limited these days than when the team could do everything to give you the car you needed.

“The key is for Jenson to solve his Saturday problems and many more titles will come.”

But what does he know eh sham?

Maybe should've bolded this one.


#2482 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:28

Maybe should've bolded this one.


He did ok though despite that.

#2483 Rocket73

Rocket73
  • Member

  • 1,306 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:36

I don't think Phil Prew struggled at all with Lewis from 2007 to 2009. Weird that signs of struggle only appeared when Latham Nicole took over?

Unsurprising, though, that you wouldn't give this any thought...


fixed

#2484 skidmarks

skidmarks
  • Member

  • 102 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:46

But what does he know eh sham?


Thanks for posting that article. It's been very enlightening, but not perhaps, in the way that you would have liked.

“Jenson is like I was, very easy on the car,” said Prost.

“With my driving style I really had a big problem with qualifying tyres and it was not something I could change myself.


Prost tells us that Jenson is facing the same issues as himself, in that they are related to his driving style and by mentioning that he himself could not change that, indicates that Prost thinks that Jenson needs to be more adaptable and be able to change his own driving style to rectify the situation.

There's no surprise there. Many people on this thread have been saying this for most of the season.


Let's go back to the discussion of Lewis's misfortunes, the whole "bad luck" argument and how Jenson suffering apparent "set up" woes means we can discount issues outside of Lewis's control in the points/performance comparison. You yourself have indicated that Jenson's setup woes are also the teams responsibility, although with Spa and Japan, you were of a different mind when the same argument was applied to Lewis.

You seem to be indicating that sham and perhaps all of us should accept Prost's comments without question. That all Jenson has to do, is to adapt his driving style. There's no mention of setup there. So can we then discount all your arguments regarding Button and setup, as far as you are concerned?

After all; what does Prost know, eh Lazy?

(sorry, couldn't resist being very cheeky and throwing that back at you)


#2485 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:06

Prost tells us that Jenson is facing the same issues as himself, in that they are related to his driving style and by mentioning that he himself could not change that, indicates that Prost thinks that Jenson needs to be more adaptable and be able to change his own driving style to rectify the situation.


Every driver has his weaknesses but Prost manged 4 WDC's without solving that problem and he says that Jenson could achieve the same.

He said that he should try and fix his tyre warming issues in qualy which is very different.

Let's go back to the discussion of Lewis's misfortunes, the whole "bad luck" argument and how Jenson suffering apparent "set up" woes means we can discount issues outside of Lewis's control in the points/performance comparison. You yourself have indicated that Jenson's setup woes are also the teams responsibility, although with Spa and Japan, you were of a different mind when the same argument was applied to Lewis.


I argued only that if you want to lay Lewis' problems at the feet of McLaren then you have to extend the same courtesy to Jenson. My basic position has always been that we have too little information to argue with the points situation to any serious extent,

You seem to be indicating that sham and perhaps all of us should accept Prost's comments without question. That all Jenson has to do, is to adapt his driving style. There's no mention of setup there. So can we then discount all your arguments regarding Button and setup, as far as you are concerned?


Not at all, I'm just suggesting to sham that the opinions of experienced F1 drivers should not be dismissed as embarrassingly stupid. They considerably more information and experience than we do.




#2486 skidmarks

skidmarks
  • Member

  • 102 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:34

Every driver has his weaknesses but Prost manged 4 WDC's without solving that problem and he says that Jenson could achieve the same.

He said that he should try and fix his tyre warming issues in qualy which is very different.


I'm afraid that's not all Prost said. He mentioned his own difficulties due to his driving style, with an added qualifier at the end of his sentence. You don't bring that sort of self criticism, not matter how objective you are, if you don't think it bears some relationship to the subject at hand. Which is Jenson's issues and how to solve them.


I argued only that if you want to lay Lewis' problems at the feet of McLaren then you have to extend the same courtesy to Jenson. My basic position has always been that we have too little information to argue with the points situation to any serious extent,


No, your position has always been that when Lewis is suffering from issues while in front of Jenson, there's too little information,. leaning towards Lewis's faults (see the points lost thread). But Button's own issues, you have argued, are down to setup and shying away from any sort of criticism on his driving and inability to adapt. You have blamed the car, the engineers because it's their job (but it's Lewis's job when he gets it wrong).

Now, here we have somebody who you are promoting as a person who knows what they're talking about, saying something different. It's not setup. It's adaptability, and we saw this in the last race from Lewis. How did he get such good performance out of different compounds? By changing his style to warm the tires up, and then changing again once they were at the correct temperature. That's not setup doing the job, that's the driver.

Not at all, I'm just suggesting to sham that the opinions of experienced F1 drivers should not be dismissed as embarrassingly stupid. They considerably more information and experience than we do.


Indeed. Prost does know what he's talking about. Which isn't as good a thing for Button as you might like to think.

Edited by skidmarks, 17 November 2012 - 09:39.


#2487 Obi Offiah

Obi Offiah
  • Member

  • 7,039 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:47

I'm afraid that's not all Prost said. He mentioned his own difficulties due to his driving style, with an added qualifier at the end of his sentence. You don't bring that sort of self criticism, not matter how objective you are, if you don't think it bears some relationship to the subject at hand. Which is Jenson's issues and how to solve them.




No, your position has always been that when Lewis is suffering from issues while in front of Jenson, there's too little information,. leaning towards Lewis's faults (see the points lost thread). But Button's own issues, you have argued, are down to setup and shying away from any sort of criticism on his driving and inability to adapt. You have blamed the car, the engineers because it's their job (but it's Lewis's job when he gets it wrong).

Now, here we have somebody who you are promoting as a person who knows what they're talking about, saying something different. It's not setup. It's adaptability, and we saw this in the last race from Lewis. How did he get such good performance out of different compounds? By changing his style to warm the tires up, and then changing again once they were at the correct temperature. That's not setup doing the job, that's the driver.



Indeed. Prost does know what he's talking about. Which isn't as good a thing for Button as you might like to think.

:up: :up: :up:


#2488 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 6,655 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:59

fixed


Nicole was around in 2008, when Lewis won his title, I don't even know why this has to be said.

#2489 f1fastestlap

f1fastestlap
  • Member

  • 1,684 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 17 November 2012 - 11:11

I'm afraid that's not all Prost said. He mentioned his own difficulties due to his driving style, with an added qualifier at the end of his sentence. You don't bring that sort of self criticism, not matter how objective you are, if you don't think it bears some relationship to the subject at hand. Which is Jenson's issues and how to solve them.




No, your position has always been that when Lewis is suffering from issues while in front of Jenson, there's too little information,. leaning towards Lewis's faults (see the points lost thread). But Button's own issues, you have argued, are down to setup and shying away from any sort of criticism on his driving and inability to adapt. You have blamed the car, the engineers because it's their job (but it's Lewis's job when he gets it wrong).

Now, here we have somebody who you are promoting as a person who knows what they're talking about, saying something different. It's not setup. It's adaptability, and we saw this in the last race from Lewis. How did he get such good performance out of different compounds? By changing his style to warm the tires up, and then changing again once they were at the correct temperature. That's not setup doing the job, that's the driver.



Indeed. Prost does know what he's talking about. Which isn't as good a thing for Button as you might like to think.


Great post :up: :up:


#2490 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,034 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:51

You just summed up stuff I've being trying to say for ages in a beautiful way. Great post.

#2491 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,612 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:51

fixed

Nicole haha. Bash bash. But who is it that at 31 still needs daddy around all the time? Who needs a girlfriend so empty-headed she has nothing better to do than trail round the world being a support act for her needy boyfriend and keeping his bubble inflated? :p

#2492 Nahnever

Nahnever
  • Member

  • 248 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:55

Nicole haha. Bash bash. But who is it that at 31 still needs daddy around all the time? Who needs a girlfriend so empty-headed she has nothing better to do than trail round the world being a support act for her needy boyfriend and keeping his bubble inflated? :p

loooooooooooooool

#2493 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,034 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:04

Button says in a new interview that his tyre issue is something 'we need to work on'. Doesn't that bother Button fans that he is always reliant on the team? The car needs to suit him, the tyres do, the temperature does etc.

Hamilton would have said it's something he needs to work on. And he has worked on it himself by adapting his style.

#2494 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,759 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:14

Button says in a new interview that his tyre issue is something 'we need to work on'. Doesn't that bother Button fans that he is always reliant on the team? The car needs to suit him, the tyres do, the temperature does etc.

Does it bother me as a Button fan that he's got an issue with the tyres and struggles to adapt (both at Brawn as well as McLaren)? Yes. But every driver has flaws and this is his. I'm not going to stop supporting him because he's not the perfect driver.

Does it bother me as a Button fan that he works with the rest of the team to solve these (and other) issues? No, it would worry me if he didn't. Turning down help from his own team would be a stupid thing to do.

Hamilton would have said it's something he needs to work on. And he has worked on it himself by adapting his style.

I'll wait for Hamiltons own words if it's all right with you.

Edited by Peter Perfect, 17 November 2012 - 13:14.


#2495 whitevisor

whitevisor
  • Member

  • 267 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:19

Thanks for posting that article. It's been very enlightening, but not perhaps, in the way that you would have liked.



Prost tells us that Jenson is facing the same issues as himself, in that they are related to his driving style and by mentioning that he himself could not change that, indicates that Prost thinks that Jenson needs to be more adaptable and be able to change his own driving style to rectify the situation.

There's no surprise there. Many people on this thread have been saying this for most of the season.


I disagree with your 2nd point. What Prost was saying is that the problem can only be fixed with changing the behaviour of the car. He went on to say that in the old days, teams got generous testing time to make the car work with the driver's style and Today Jenson doesn't have that luxury.

“With my driving style I really had a big problem with qualifying tyres and it was not something I could change myself.

“Sometimes we’ve seen it gives Jenson a good advantage and sometimes problems.

“He deserves to be world champion again but it depends on the tyres and the car.

Things are more limited these days than when the team could do everything to give you the car you needed.



#2496 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:20

Nicole haha. Bash bash. But who is it that at 31 still needs daddy around all the time? Who needs a girlfriend so empty-headed she has nothing better to do than trail round the world being a support act for her needy boyfriend and keeping his bubble inflated? :p

Is that some kind of slang term I dont know about ... like H.A.M.

Edited by jjcale, 17 November 2012 - 13:25.


#2497 andrewf1

andrewf1
  • Member

  • 256 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:27

I disagree with your 2nd point. What Prost was saying is that the problem can only be fixed with changing the behaviour of the car. He went on to say that in the old days, teams got generous testing time to make the car work with the driver's style and Today Jenson doesn't have that luxury.


Hence, the moral of the story is: if JB wants to increase his chances of ever being a WDC again, he should learn to adapt.

#2498 skidmarks

skidmarks
  • Member

  • 102 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:33

I disagree with your 2nd point. What Prost was saying is that the problem can only be fixed with changing the behaviour of the car. He went on to say that in the old days, teams got generous testing time to make the car work with the driver's style and Today Jenson doesn't have that luxury.


Good point. As always, there's a massive but. Prost is pointing out how things were done in his day, and this is where perhaps, his expertise falls down and what he has to say might not be so relevant. If anything, I think it highlights even more how the lack of performance lays even more at Jenson's feet.

The fact is, there isn't so much room for testing. There are no qualifying tires, no electronic aids and many more restrictive regulations. The drivers have to work with what they have. After all, Lewis and his engineers have the same time and restraints when setting up the car as Jenson and his engineers. And perhaps F1 isn't about setting up the car to suit the driver any more; it's about setting up the car to best use the tires and it's up to the driver to adapt to that?



#2499 whitevisor

whitevisor
  • Member

  • 267 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:35

Hence, the moral of the story is: if JB wants to increase his chances of ever being a WDC again, he should learn to adapt.


Yes - In theory.
However, Prost, 4XWDC never did learn to adapt, and as shown over the last 12 years, Button never will (and Button is an intelligent guy). Prost said Overcoming that weakness all hinges on how well the team gets the car to work with his style of driving. I other words Button should just give up on trying to be adaptable - just get better at setting up the car or wait till Mclaren makes a rocketship.

Advertisement

#2500 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,612 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:41

Is that some kind of slang term I dont know about ... like H.A.M.

Hmm, well now I look 'bubble' up it seems it could be ecstasy, cocaine, a Greek or a laugh :confused:

H.A.M was news to me as well, but luckily whassisname at the Mail was there to keep me in touch with what the hardass mother is up to.