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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#2501 skidmarks

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:43

wait till Mclaren makes a rocketship.


Much like 2012?


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#2502 Kyo

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:45

I don't remember Prost having this same opinion when he was beating Watson (9-5), Arnoux (18-13), Cheever (13-2), Lauda (29-2), Keke (12-4), Johansson (16-0), Alesi (13-2) or Hill (13-3) in qualifying...

#2503 andrewf1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:56

Yes - In theory.
However, Prost, 4XWDC never did learn to adapt, and as shown over the last 12 years, Button never will (and Button is an intelligent guy). Prost said Overcoming that weakness all hinges on how well the team gets the car to work with his style of driving. I other words Button should just give up on trying to be adaptable - just get better at setting up the car or wait till Mclaren makes a rocketship.


But that's not a very intelligent conclusion now, is it?
Prost, 4XWDC, didnt need to learn to adapt, because he had the luxury of testing the car so much that it would suit to his preferences.

He also says Button doesn't have that luxury now.

If you add those 2 statements up, it means Button would be better off changing his style, not keeping it. 'Waiting' for Mclaren to build a rocketship speaks quite lowly for a driver.

#2504 Nahnever

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:57

Hmm, well now I look 'bubble' up it seems it could be ecstasy, cocaine, a Greek or a laugh :confused:

H.A.M was news to me as well, but luckily whassisname at the Mail was there to keep me in touch with what the hardass mother is up to.

Bubble is not a slang for anything :lol: It just means exactly that, a bubble, i.e. a metaphor for wrapping yourself up in your own enclosed world.

#2505 speng

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:12

But his praise of one racer, McLaren’s champion Jenson Button is unfaltering - a driver he gave his first F1 break to and whose smooth driving style is modelled on his own.

As Button prepares to contest the Sunday’s USA GP Prost said his svelte style means he has the same problems as the Frenchman himself did 20 years ago.

“Jenson is like I was, very easy on the car,” said Prost.

“With my driving style I really had a big problem with qualifying tyres and it was not something I could change myself.

“Sometimes we’ve seen it gives Jenson a good advantage and sometimes problems.

“He deserves to be world champion again but it depends on the tyres and the car.

“Things are more limited these days than when the team could do everything to give you the car you needed.

“The key is for Jenson to solve his Saturday problems and many more titles will come.”

But what does he know eh sham?

So Prost likes Button because Button is like he was therefore complimentary towards him, no surprise there
I only have one question, why is it Button cannot fix his huge qualifying weakness? He has enough experience to work on it.

Edited by speng, 17 November 2012 - 14:12.


#2506 speng

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:27

“He deserves to be world champion again but it depends on the tyres and the car.

In my opinion Button will not deserves to win another WDC untill overcome his qualify weakness, perform well with differing types of tyres and be adaptable to perform well in a car that is not balanced the way he likes it. This is what the top drivers do.

#2507 Peter Perfect

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:37

So Prost likes Button because Button is like he was therefore complimentary towards him, no surprise there
I only have one question, why is it Button cannot fix his huge qualifying weakness? He has enough experience to work on it.

Maybe he's not good enough? As I said before, no driver is perfect.

Just had a quick check of Hamilton/Button average qualifying gaps: (thanks to http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk)

2012 - 0.257
2011 - 0.204
2010 - 0.16

Button's issues in qualifying tend to turn into an advantage in races.

Of course that's comparing him to Hamilton. Do you regard Hamilton as an average qualifier?

edit: fixed link

Edited by Peter Perfect, 17 November 2012 - 14:58.


#2508 speng

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:45

Maybe he's not good enough? As I said before, no driver is perfect.

Just had a quick check of Hamilton/Button average qualifying gaps: (thanks to http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk)

2012 - 0.257
2011 - 0.204
2010 - 0.16

Button's issues in qualifying tend to turn into an advantage in races.

Of course that's comparing him to Hamilton. Do you regard Hamilton as an average qualifier?

I wish you link was good. I would be able to give a better response.

#2509 Peter Perfect

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:59

I wish you link was good. I would be able to give a better response.

The address was fine but the link was broken. Fixed now.

#2510 bub

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 15:22

So Prost likes Button because Button is like he was therefore complimentary towards him, no surprise there



Must be. I have no problem with Button getting praise, he's an excellent racing driver, but why else would Prost single him out for praise when Hamilton, Raikkonen, Vettel and Alonso are all performing better than him?

#2511 Peter Perfect

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 15:25

Must be. I have no problem with Button getting praise, he's an excellent racing driver, but why else would Prost single him out for praise when Hamilton, Raikkonen, Vettel and Alonso are all performing better than him?

Well, potentially he was asked about him (given he gave Button his first F1 test at Prost).

#2512 bub

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 15:30

Well, potentially he was asked about him (given he gave Button his first F1 test at Prost).


True, that would make sense, but I also think people often have an affinity to those who are similar to themselves.

#2513 Clatter

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 15:49

Button says in a new interview that his tyre issue is something 'we need to work on'. Doesn't that bother Button fans that he is always reliant on the team? The car needs to suit him, the tyres do, the temperature does etc.

Hamilton would have said it's something he needs to work on. And he has worked on it himself by adapting his style.


No, for the simple reason that the sensible ones around here know that every driver is reliant on their team.

#2514 undersquare

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 15:51

Bubble is not a slang for anything :lol: It just means exactly that, a bubble, i.e. a metaphor for wrapping yourself up in your own enclosed world.

If you look 'bubble slang' up you'll see it means those things; except on here obviously where it's a weapon of war and apparently it's NOT Jense who needs it :eek:

#2515 Lazy

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:01

Button says in a new interview that his tyre issue is something 'we need to work on'. Doesn't that bother Button fans that he is always reliant on the team? The car needs to suit him, the tyres do, the temperature does etc.

Hamilton would have said it's something he needs to work on. And he has worked on it himself by adapting his style.


Lol. Try googling "lewis hamilton we need to work on".

#2516 jjcale

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:09

Hmm, well now I look 'bubble' up it seems it could be ecstasy, cocaine, a Greek or a laugh :confused:

H.A.M was news to me as well, but luckily whassisname at the Mail was there to keep me in touch with what the hardass mother is up to.


Well that's a surprise .... either way, Jess isnt a bad one to have around to blow your "bubble" - is she?

#2517 speng

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:13

Maybe he's not good enough? As I said before, no driver is perfect.

Just had a quick check of Hamilton/Button average qualifying gaps: (thanks to http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk)

2012 - 0.257
2011 - 0.204
2010 - 0.16

Button's issues in qualifying tend to turn into an advantage in races.

Of course that's comparing him to Hamilton. Do you regard Hamilton as an average qualifier?

edit: fixed link

the problem for Button here is the gap is getting wider, from 2010 - 2012 the gap is wider by 0.241 (
Currently in Practice 3: Hamilton 2 Button 10 over 7/10 behind.
Lets see what happpens in Qualifying, do thinking Button will have tyre temp/balance problems again ?

Edited by speng, 17 November 2012 - 16:13.


#2518 whitevisor

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:16

the problem for Button here is the gap is getting wider, from 2010 - 2012 the gap is wider by 0.241 (
Currently in Practice 3: Hamilton 2 Button 10 over 7/10 behind.
Lets see what happpens in Qualifying, do thinking Button will have tyre temp/balance problems again ?


To be fair Jenson did not get a last minute run like HAM/VET/MAL/ALO/WEB

#2519 Nahnever

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:20

To be fair Jenson did not get a last minute run like HAM/VET/MAL/ALO/WEB

What? button was the first one out before Hamilton or Vettel. Vettel set his time on his first go. Button should have enough time to set at least one quick time.

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#2520 Lazy

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:20

I'm afraid that's not all Prost said. He mentioned his own difficulties due to his driving style, with an added qualifier at the end of his sentence. You don't bring that sort of self criticism, not matter how objective you are, if you don't think it bears some relationship to the subject at hand. Which is Jenson's issues and how to solve them.




No, your position has always been that when Lewis is suffering from issues while in front of Jenson, there's too little information,. leaning towards Lewis's faults (see the points lost thread). But Button's own issues, you have argued, are down to setup and shying away from any sort of criticism on his driving and inability to adapt. You have blamed the car, the engineers because it's their job (but it's Lewis's job when he gets it wrong).

Now, here we have somebody who you are promoting as a person who knows what they're talking about, saying something different. It's not setup. It's adaptability, and we saw this in the last race from Lewis. How did he get such good performance out of different compounds? By changing his style to warm the tires up, and then changing again once they were at the correct temperature. That's not setup doing the job, that's the driver.



Indeed. Prost does know what he's talking about. Which isn't as good a thing for Button as you might like to think.


Well that's a lot of words you've put into Prost's mouth and mine.

Yes that's exactly what he said, all his points were related to qualifying and at no point did he say that Jenson needed to adapt his driving style, he said that his style can be a problem in qualifying. In fact he implied , as has been pointed out by whitevisor, that the solution would be a setup one and would be at least partly a team responsibilty.

I reiterate, my position is and always has been the status quo, I have only ever put those points as a counter argument to those who wish to gift 100 pts to Lewis on the basis of McLarens supposed incompetence.

"But his praise of one racer, McLaren’s champion Jenson Button is unfaltering"

“Jenson is like I was, very easy on the car,” said Prost.

“He deserves to be world champion again"

“The key is for Jenson to solve his Saturday problems and many more titles will come.”

That's good enough praise for me, unlike some Lewis fans, I'm not trying to pretend my driver is perfect.


Poor post, full of strawmen.

#2521 Peter Perfect

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 17:06

Just in case anyone didn't realise the impact on performance of the tyres of being out of their temperature operating window.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104316

Daniel Ricciardo believes the potential for a tyre temperature-influenced lottery in the United States Grand Prix gives Toro Rosso hope of snatching a good result.
...
Many drivers complained that the dusty track surface and low temperatures made it impossible to get tyres into their operating windows early in runs during Friday practice.
...
We did a run [in practice] and didn't understand why we were one to two seconds off the pace I'd done on the previous run. It's very sensitive to track temperature, tyre pressure, all these.



#2522 stevesingo

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 17:18

Button says in a new interview that his tyre issue is something 'we need to work on'. Doesn't that bother Button fans that he is always reliant on the team? The car needs to suit him, the tyres do, the temperature does etc.


It doesn't bother me that a member of a team is reliant on that team, much the same as the team is reliant on the driver. How do you expect JB to sort the issue without the data from the team.

Hamilton would have said it's something he needs to work on. And he has worked on it himself by adapting his style.


Is that because LH is more self centred and prepared to take the credit for it?


Hence, the moral of the story is: if JB wants to increase his chances of ever being a WDC again, he should learn to adapt.


Really? That is part of the problem. The other part lies at the feet of the car that doesn't provide a sufficiently wide set up window nor generate sufficient tyre temps for a driver with finesse.

If the tyre temp tables were turned and the car was like the Mercedes in overheating rear tyres, the LH Fanboi brigade would be blaming the car, not his ability to drive and adapt.



#2523 speng

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 17:21

Really? That is part of the problem. The other part lies at the feet of the car that doesn't provide a sufficiently wide set up window nor generate sufficient tyre temps for a driver with finesse.

If the tyre temp tables were turned and the car was like the Mercedes in overheating rear tyres, the LH Fanboi brigade would be blaming the car, not his ability to drive and adapt.

** that is what being adaptable is about **

#2524 whitevisor

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 17:38

To use an Analogy, can one say it is like Button is left handed and Hamilton is ambidextrous?
Button the leftie, for argument's sake, can only use tools that is specially made for lefties such as reverse contoured mouse and reverse stringed guitars. He also can only use them in a left hand body position. While Hamilton, can switch hands to use whatever tools he is given and work in different positions to take full advantage of those tools...

#2525 Nahnever

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 17:40

Just in case anyone didn't realise the impact on performance of the tyres of being out of their temperature operating window.

Yet some how the top 3 drivers are still at the top :stoned:

#2526 Lazy

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:01

Yet some how the top 3 drivers are still at the top :stoned:


Seb, Fred and Kimi right?

#2527 slmk

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:41

Despite JB's failure, he was nowhere near LH on mediums so..

#2528 Peter Perfect

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:43

Despite JB's failure, he was nowhere near LH on mediums so..

..that's ok then. :rolleyes: Do car failures only count when it's Hamilton?

#2529 Nahnever

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:44

..that's ok then. :rolleyes: Do car failures only count when it's Hamilton?

Lol he wasn't close to Hamilton all weekend. What are you talking about?

#2530 slmk

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:45

..that's ok then. :rolleyes: Do car failures only count when it's Hamilton?


Lewis has been consistently in from of Button by the tune of 5 tenths or even more. Giving the benefit of the doubt to JB is ludicrous. JB was unlucky, probably a top 6 spot was possible for him, but no way he would have out-qualified LH.

#2531 thesham01

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:46

..that's ok then. :rolleyes: Do car failures only count when it's Hamilton?


No, but car failures are Hamilton's fault apparently.

Does any still think Hamilton is at fault for his car failures? Evidence keeps piling up that he is not.

#2532 P123

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:46

..that's ok then. :rolleyes: Do car failures only count when it's Hamilton?


Gawd you lot are like a bunch of bickering children. At least you can stay away fro meach other next season....

As for the actual issue, no doubt once again one of those things that has never failed before just failed. Story of McLaren's season.

#2533 mlsnoopy

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:47

Embarrassing. What a diffrence a driver can make.

#2534 PARAZAR

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:47

I couldn't care less about that. What's annoying is that he's starting 12th with the crazies.

#2535 StefanArak

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:47

..that's ok then. :rolleyes: Do car failures only count when it's Hamilton?


No, but a failure from either being ahead on track or when you're faster in qualy affects the points gap far more than it does than when you're behind.

#2536 P123

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:48

Lol he wasn't close to Hamilton all weekend. What are you talking about?


He was actually, but it's very hard to judge when there are 5 or 6 warm-up laps before the drivers can post a representative time.

#2537 peroa

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:48

No, but car failures are Hamilton's fault apparently.

Does any still think Hamilton is at fault for his car failures? Evidence keeps piling up that he is not.

That mofo broke JB's throttle pedal.

#2538 PARAZAR

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:49

Embarrassing. What a diffrence a driver can make.


What's embarassing?

#2539 Dalton007

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:49

Despite JB's failure, he was nowhere near LH on mediums so..



Yep, he seems to grain them and it gets worse. Weird problem.

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#2540 P123

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:49

I couldn't care less about that. What's annoying is that he's starting 12th with the crazies.


Grosjean has a gearbox penalty, so JB may move back up to 11th, and the clean side of the grid.

#2541 peroa

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:51

Grosjean has a gearbox penalty, so JB may move back up to 11th, and the clean side of the grid.

Doesn't really matter though, everybody will stop once, even the soft would probably last the whole race.

#2542 Dalton007

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:52

Doesn't really matter though, everybody will stop once, even the soft would probably last the whole race.


But he gets to start on the hard tyre which he seems to prefer.

#2543 Peter Perfect

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:53

But he gets to start on the hard tyre which he seems to prefer.

The soft may react better when there's more rubber down (i.e. from the mid-point of the race)

#2544 skidmarks

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:53

Yes that's exactly what he said, all his points were related to qualifying and at no point did he say that Jenson needed to adapt his driving style, he said that his style can be a problem in qualifying. In fact he implied , as has been pointed out by whitevisor, that the solution would be a setup one and would be at least partly a team responsibilty.


Prost pointed out that it was a setup issue back when he was driving, but is that really the solution now? Either way, it doesn't make your hero look so great. As you've pointed out regarding Hamilton in the past (Spa, and laughably Japan, even after it was revealed the car was damaged during FP), it's up to the driver to get it right and give appropriate feedback, so it's not something the team can do.

So either Button is unable to give appropriate feedback to his engineering team or he's not adaptable. Which is it?


That's good enough praise for me, unlike some Lewis fans, I'm not trying to pretend my driver is perfect.


Praise is a great thing. It's a shame that it Button has done very little to earn any this season. I've never pretended that Hamilton is perfect. But then, I tend not to prepare a noose when a driver makes a single mistake either.



#2545 Lazy

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:01

Prost pointed out that it was a setup issue back when he was driving, but is that really the solution now? Either way, it doesn't make your hero look so great. As you've pointed out regarding Hamilton in the past (Spa, and laughably Japan, even after it was revealed the car was damaged during FP), it's up to the driver to get it right and give appropriate feedback, so it's not something the team can do.

So either Button is unable to give appropriate feedback to his engineering team or he's not adaptable. Which is it?




Praise is a great thing. It's a shame that it Button has done very little to earn any this season. I've never pretended that Hamilton is perfect. But then, I tend not to prepare a noose when a driver makes a single mistake either.


So you admit you were talking crap before about Prost saying he needed to adapt.

The rest of your post you're just making it up in addition to contradicting yourself. I'd be interested to see my post about Japan that says those things.

#2546 P123

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:02

Superb quali effort by Hamilton. Never in a million years thought we would have a battle for pole.

#2547 Lazy

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:09

Superb quali effort by Hamilton. Never in a million years thought we would have a battle for pole.


Indeed, Vettel looked like he would be miles ahead.

Edited by Lazy, 17 November 2012 - 19:10.


#2548 peroa

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:12

Bloody sky.
The first clip they play is "Hamilton mistakes".
Thankfully Johnny Herbert recognizes the brilliant lap.

Whitmarsh is just pathetic, really.

#2549 speng

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:14

Superb quali effort by Hamilton. Never in a million years thought we would have a battle for pole.

You said it, totally agree with you. The RB is a fantastic car and there is no doubt that Vettel is quick and for Hamilton to take to them in a lesser car is just great. The only other driver on the field that could do that is Alonso.

Edited by speng, 17 November 2012 - 19:16.


#2550 thesham01

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:16

Bloody sky.
The first clip they play is "Hamilton mistakes".
Thankfully Johnny Herbert recognizes the brilliant lap.

Whitmarsh is just pathetic, really.


Earlier they were discussing Hamilton-Button this year and saying Button has a chance of beating him again, with zero mention of Hamilton's bad luck.