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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#2601 Ricardo F1

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:21

It is a remarkable coincidence that drivers who are easy on their car and make a conscious effort to be so, have less mechanical failures than their more aggressive team mates.

Oh god, really? :rolleyes:


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#2602 Kyo

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:44

It is a remarkable coincidence that drivers who are easy on their car and make a conscious effort to be so, have less mechanical failures than their more aggressive team mates.

Hamilton has beaten Button by an average of 0.2s, so unless your saying Hamilton is an average qualifier, Button isn't bad either.

2 consecutive races with fuel readout problems, a broken gear selector mechanism on the parade lap or a failed differential at the start before even the first corner are all certainly due to a more aggressive approach from Senna. :rolleyes:

Never said Button is bad, but he is just average in qualifying.


#2603 Rocket73

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:22

Oh god, really? :rolleyes:


yes really!! whats wrong with you people who can't see this...well you can see it but you don't want to...

#2604 Kelateboy

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:40

I think they can still win Ohio.

That is a bit rich considering that they can't even win Florida. :D

But on a serious note, you have to expect Hamilton not to challenge for the lead going into T1 as that side of the track is extremely slippery. I would not be surprised even if the slow-starting Webber would be ahead of him after T1. Whether Webber could keep that place is another issue.

#2605 skidmarks

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:29

yes really!! whats wrong with you people who can't see this...well you can see it but you don't want to...


The problem is that you're unable to provide proof. Unless you can tell us exactly where each mechanical failure occurred, why it occurred and how driving style was the cause, all you are giving us is biased opinion.

If the failures were down to driving style, I personally, would expect the tires or suspension arms + uprights to malfunction first. After all, they take the brunt of the forces transferred from the road to the car itself. I find it hard to believe that any sort of engine, transmission or electronic malfunction is down to driving style as well.

This is especially true of the transmission, as the driver is so far removed from the process of clutching, even at launch.



#2606 Sinceref189

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:28

yes really!! whats wrong with you people who can't see this...well you can see it but you don't want to...

:lol: WTF are you serious right now ,so why did this not happen in 2007 and 2008 when he was visibly chucking the car around more, what a pathectic statement.

#2607 Darth Sidious

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:42

yes really!! whats wrong with you people who can't see this...well you can see it but you don't want to...


Y'know, if the car can withstand the destruction derby of Monaco 2011 and still finish in the points then I find it hard to blame Lewis' driving style of causing car failures. It was bashing Ferraris and Williamses into retirement yet still finished in the points. Now a bit of kerb hopping and wheelspinning is causing the car to self destruct? You may think so, and you're welcome to that stance. Personally, nah.

#2608 speng

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:50

The problem is that you're unable to provide proof. Unless you can tell us exactly where each mechanical failure occurred, why it occurred and how driving style was the cause, all you are giving us is biased opinion.
If the failures were down t
o driving style, I personally, would expect the tires or suspension arms + uprights to malfunction first. After all, they take the brunt of the forces transferred from the road to the car itself. I find it hard to believe that any sort of engine, transmission or electronic malfunction is down to driving style as well.

This is especially true of the transmission, as the driver is so far removed from the process of clutching, even at launch.

logical, make sense etc etc

Edited by speng, 18 November 2012 - 12:09.


#2609 maverick69

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:51

Y'know, if the car can withstand the destruction derby of Monaco 2011 and still finish in the points then I find it hard to blame Lewis' driving style of causing car failures. It was bashing Ferraris and Williamses into retirement yet still finished in the points. Now a bit of kerb hopping and wheelspinning is causing the car to self destruct? You may think so, and you're welcome to that stance. Personally, nah.


Yep.

The cars are absolutly covered in sensors nowerdays. That allied to the amount of NDT done on components means that any issues eminating from a driver pushing a part or a sytem of parts would be flagged up right away - and subsiquently rectified.

But hey - when one cannot bash his driving per se - one must find another aspect...... no matter how silly it is..........

#2610 thesham01

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 14:11

Everyone who isn't Rocket and Lazy know that Hamilton isn't at fault for the failures. And I suspect even they know it.

Buttons failure this weekend is another bit of evidence on the huge pile that says it's McLarens issue, not Hamiltons.

#2611 study

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 14:16

Wasn't Martin blaming Mercedes for the fuel pump breakage but now McLaren come out and say its a part they've had the same for 10 years?

#2612 Peter Perfect

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 14:30

Wasn't Martin blaming Mercedes for the fuel pump breakage but now McLaren come out and say its a part they've had the same for 10 years?

Did he actually say it was Mercedes's fault? And haven't McLaren been using Mercedes engines for over 10 years now so why couldn't it have been a Mercedes part?

It may well have been a McLaren part for all I know but I've seen nothing to point to a definitive answer either way.

#2613 Dalton007

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 14:54

Everyone who isn't Rocket and Lazy know that Hamilton isn't at fault for the failures. And I suspect even they know it.

Buttons failure this weekend is another bit of evidence on the huge pile that says it's McLarens issue, not Hamiltons.


It's McLaren's fault for not giving both drivers reliable machinery.

#2614 Lazy

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 16:15

Oh god, really? :rolleyes:



2 consecutive races with fuel readout problems, a broken gear selector mechanism on the parade lap or a failed differential at the start before even the first corner are all certainly due to a more aggressive approach from Senna. :rolleyes:

Never said Button is bad, but he is just average in qualifying.



The problem is that you're unable to provide proof. Unless you can tell us exactly where each mechanical failure occurred, why it occurred and how driving style was the cause, all you are giving us is biased opinion.

If the failures were down to driving style, I personally, would expect the tires or suspension arms + uprights to malfunction first. After all, they take the brunt of the forces transferred from the road to the car itself. I find it hard to believe that any sort of engine, transmission or electronic malfunction is down to driving style as well.

This is especially true of the transmission, as the driver is so far removed from the process of clutching, even at launch.



Y'know, if the car can withstand the destruction derby of Monaco 2011 and still finish in the points then I find it hard to blame Lewis' driving style of causing car failures. It was bashing Ferraris and Williamses into retirement yet still finished in the points. Now a bit of kerb hopping and wheelspinning is causing the car to self destruct? You may think so, and you're welcome to that stance. Personally, nah.



logical, make sense etc etc



Yep.

The cars are absolutly covered in sensors nowerdays. That allied to the amount of NDT done on components means that any issues eminating from a driver pushing a part or a sytem of parts would be flagged up right away - and subsiquently rectified.

But hey - when one cannot bash his driving per se - one must find another aspect...... no matter how silly it is..........



Everyone who isn't Rocket and Lazy know that Hamilton isn't at fault for the failures. And I suspect even they know it.

Buttons failure this weekend is another bit of evidence on the huge pile that says it's McLarens issue, not Hamiltons.


It's a well known and established pattern in motor racing that the more aggressive drivers tend to have more accidents, mechanical failures etc. It's only logical, it makes sense. Gary Anderson was just the other day talking about how kerb hopping can damage the car.

Prost and Button, amongst others, specifically tailor their driving to minimise these problems and have stated so. Why would they bother if it makes no difference?

Nobody is saying that every failure is the drivers fault, but the more aggressive drivers will have more failures than others. It's obvious and statistically born out time again. What's remarkable is that followers of motorsport should try and deny it.

Edited by Lazy, 18 November 2012 - 16:16.


#2615 senna da silva

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 16:25

Lewis DNF
Jenson 5th


Put money on this!

#2616 PinkZepStones

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 16:27

We live in a time where F1 cars dont break down every other race like they used to unless something is funamentally wrong with the machine, Kimi 2005, for example.

If you want to blame it on aggressive drivers thats your perogative, just remember Hamiltons super-aggressive tyre burning, kerb riding 2007 where he failed to finish due to mechanical failure a whooping 0 times :rolleyes:

The gear shifting is done at the flick of a paddle, arguably the best way in which driver input can damage a car, that is, manual changing of the gears, you dont thrust a sequential down from 6th to 3rd under braking redlining the car like mad like in '88.

Mechanical failure nowadays is a complete lottery. Hamilton bought many loosing tickets.

#2617 Ricardo F1

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:08

If kerb hopping caused mechanical issues the mechanics would tell the drivers not to do it one would think . . . . the only time in recent memory I can remember a car failure caused by a driver was Kimi Raikonnen (NOTORIOUS CAR BREAKER!!!) flat spotting his tyre so badly the suspension broke. I can't think of any others.

#2618 Rocket73

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:19

haha this is brilliant...like i said you dont want to see it and you have all given big speeches about how reliability is nothing to do with the driver...genius

#2619 ZooL

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:22

If kerb hopping caused mechanical issues the mechanics would tell the drivers not to do it one would think . . . . the only time in recent memory I can remember a car failure caused by a driver was Kimi Raikonnen (NOTORIOUS CAR BREAKER!!!) flat spotting his tyre so badly the suspension broke. I can't think of any others.

Maybe Lazy has inside info that McLaren engineers are telling Hamilton he's doing it wrong this year...

Personally I think Lazy's theory is rubbish. Hamilton style has changed so much because of these Pirelli's, he is rarely racing the car, much smoother, great at making the tyres last, drives nothing like 2007 when he was super aggressive beause the tyres could handle it.

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#2620 Rocket73

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:30

The problem is that you're unable to provide proof. Unless you can tell us exactly where each mechanical failure occurred, why it occurred and how driving style was the cause, all you are giving us is biased opinion.

If the failures were down to driving style, I personally, would expect the tires or suspension arms + uprights to malfunction first. After all, they take the brunt of the forces transferred from the road to the car itself. I find it hard to believe that any sort of engine, transmission or electronic malfunction is down to driving style as well.

This is especially true of the transmission, as the driver is so far removed from the process of clutching, even at launch.


Research jb and lewis' gearbox stats and come back to us, there's a good chap..

and besides the unable to provide proof is too convenient a get out clause isn't it? which fuels the denial...it reminds me of the tactics of criminals when they are nicked by the coppers.. the old you can't prove so i didn't do it guvner!! haha that's you guys :)

Edited by Rocket73, 18 November 2012 - 17:31.


#2621 Ricardo F1

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:35

Research jb and lewis' gearbox stats and come back to us, there's a good chap..

and besides the unable to provide proof is too convenient a get out clause isn't it? which fuels the denial...it reminds me of the tactics of criminals when they are nicked by the coppers.. the old you can't prove so i didn't do it guvner!! haha that's you guys :)

Find anyone who says a driver can break a gearbox in F1 by doing anything but hitting a wall like Vettel did in Abu Duabi or YES Hamilton did in Singapore. Problem is Mclaren and Red Bull both said that wasn't the cause. This is why they have rev limiters and such - rev limiters which at place like Spa get banged on constantly up the Kemmel straight.

Edited by Ricardo F1, 18 November 2012 - 17:36.


#2622 ZooL

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:46

Research jb and lewis' gearbox stats and come back to us, there's a good chap..

and besides the unable to provide proof is too convenient a get out clause isn't it? which fuels the denial...it reminds me of the tactics of criminals when they are nicked by the coppers.. the old you can't prove so i didn't do it guvner!! haha that's you guys :)

Why do you think Hamilton can break a gearbox but not the engine?

#2623 Dalton007

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:51

Good luck to both drivers today. Can't wait for lap one. :)

#2624 MP422

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:54

Find anyone who says a driver can break a gearbox in F1 by doing anything but hitting a wall like Vettel did in Abu Duabi or YES Hamilton did in Singapore. Problem is Mclaren and Red Bull both said that wasn't the cause. This is why they have rev limiters and such - rev limiters which at place like Spa get banged on constantly up the Kemmel straight.



I don't see why that would be a cause. 800hp going through a gear box is prolly more aggressive then a bump on the wall. The driveshaft wont transfer the impact, the wishbone would and that's mounted to the outside of the gearbox. These gearboxes are all computer controlled these days, i wouldn't suggest it's the driver unless it was incredibly frequent.

#2625 Rocket73

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:09

Find anyone who says a driver can break a gearbox in F1 by doing anything but hitting a wall like Vettel did in Abu Duabi or YES Hamilton did in Singapore. Problem is Mclaren and Red Bull both said that wasn't the cause. This is why they have rev limiters and such - rev limiters which at place like Spa get banged on constantly up the Kemmel straight.


as an example Johnny herbert...and you think f1 gearboxes are way over fortified for the job?actually yeah there's not much happening in a gearbox is there? they only have to do six races now so you could probably make them out of a steel block, steel cogs, massive bearings oversized driveshaft...weight isn't an issue and it shouldn't be a problem that we have to support the whole rear end of the car on it either... :rolleyes:

these things are designed right the ****ing limit like all of f1 components....

it's depressing that this is the level you have to talk at on this thread...

#2626 Rocket73

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:14

Why do you think Hamilton can break a gearbox but not the engine?


two words....rev limit

#2627 Ricardo F1

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:18

two words....rev limit

This isn't 1970. You can't break a gearbox by hitting the rev limiter, no matter how many times you do it. As pointed out above - look at the cars banging on it endlessly up the Kemmel straight at Spa. They build gearboxes to withstand such things, and a CPU controls it.


#2628 ZooL

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:19

two words....rev limit

But the gearboxes change gear automatically the driver has no say - the electronics stop you from doing a money shift.
The clutch is automatic on gear change, they change gear faster than we can blink.

#2629 thesham01

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:20

as an example Johnny herbert...and you think f1 gearboxes are way over fortified for the job?actually yeah there's not much happening in a gearbox is there? they only have to do six races now so you could probably make them out of a steel block, steel cogs, massive bearings oversized driveshaft...weight isn't an issue and it shouldn't be a problem that we have to support the whole rear end of the car on it either... :rolleyes:

these things are designed right the ****ing limit like all of f1 components....

it's depressing that this is the level you have to talk at on this thread...


So why are you pretty much spamming this thread with replies containing no facts and all opinions?

#2630 skidmarks

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:40

as an example Johnny herbert...and you think f1 gearboxes are way over fortified for the job?actually yeah there's not much happening in a gearbox is there? they only have to do six races now so you could probably make them out of a steel block, steel cogs, massive bearings oversized driveshaft...weight isn't an issue and it shouldn't be a problem that we have to support the whole rear end of the car on it either... :rolleyes:

these things are designed right the ****ing limit like all of f1 components....

it's depressing that this is the level you have to talk at on this thread...


But how is the driver going to affect the wear and tear? You've still not explained yourself fully, explaining why the failures on Hamilton's car have been down to his driving. This especially true of Hamilton's box failure in Singapore, where he first lost e-shifts causing the box to then shift aggressively. What killed the box? Lewis's driving or the lost of the seamless shift, which is controlled by computer?





#2631 Moore

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:46

as an example Johnny herbert...and you think f1 gearboxes are way over fortified for the job?actually yeah there's not much happening in a gearbox is there? they only have to do six races now so you could probably make them out of a steel block, steel cogs, massive bearings oversized driveshaft...weight isn't an issue and it shouldn't be a problem that we have to support the whole rear end of the car on it either... :rolleyes:

these things are designed right the ****ing limit like all of f1 components....

it's depressing that this is the level you have to talk at on this thread...



Whats depressing is your unsubstantiated claims. I'd love for you to tell me why the components have suddenly started breaking when Hamilton was 10x more aggressive in his first year and he had 0 mechanical failures, but hey lets ignore this fact and fuel your agenda!



#2632 Moore

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:58

Can see this being a shit start for both drivers, not looking forward to it tbh. JB could possibly be in the firing line for Turn 1 accidents. Hopefully webber has a bas start and holds people up so the left hand side have at least a small chance of challenging the cars on the right.

#2633 F1FAN013

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 19:00

Research jb and lewis' gearbox stats and come back to us, there's a good chap..

and besides the unable to provide proof is too convenient a get out clause isn't it? which fuels the denial...it reminds me of the tactics of criminals when they are nicked by the coppers.. the old you can't prove so i didn't do it guvner!! haha that's you guys :)


You are still promoting that car breaking theory. I thought that discussion was over with when you choose not to answer my question in the "List of Hamilton's Lost 2012 Points" topic. Lewis and Jenson have both incurred poor reliability. Why can't you just accept the team is to blame for inept season McLaren are having.

#2634 Lazy

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:44

Best race of the season. Awesome from both of them.

#2635 Peter Perfect

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:47

Best race of the season. Awesome from both of them.

:up: I can't remember the last time I enjoyed a race as much as that :D

#2636 thesham01

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:49

That's this season wrapped up points wise anyway.

Excellent race from both, and well deserved.

#2637 Dalton007

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:49

:up: I can't remember the last time I enjoyed a race as much as that :D



AWESOME race. Well done to Lewis. :up: Nice work from Jenson :up: Great, clean overtaking from the pair of them.

#2638 PARAZAR

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:51

Best race of the season. Awesome from both of them.


So true! I wasn't expecting such a great race to be honest. Well done to Hamilton for the win and well done to Button for an excellent race. Great overtaking!

#2639 Moore

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:59

Great race from both of them, definitely showing how talented and good they are behind the wheel of the car!

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#2640 superdelphinus

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:02

Seems stupid they won't be together again next season

#2641 Slackbladder

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:03

Lewis offically beats Jenson in terms of points for the year now...

#2642 PARAZAR

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:06

Yes he does and congrats to him. It was much closer than expected though. Does anyone know what happened in the end? With Button's KERS?

#2643 speng

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:07

Hamilton was fantastic, Button did extremelly well.
Mclaren will be missing Hamilton mightly

#2644 Peter Perfect

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:08

Yes he does and congrats to him. It was much closer than expected though. Does anyone know what happened in the end? With Button's KERS?

My impression was it was either not charging or discharging all the way.

#2645 speng

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:10

The 3 best driver currently in F1 on the Podium.

#2646 peroa

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:11

My impression was it was either not charging or discharging all the way.

The breaking zones were probably not enough to fully recharge in one lap, I guess, since both got the same "problem".

#2647 jrg19

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:12

Button did a great job considering his bad luck yesterday.

Lewis was epic this weekend.

Have we hit the point of 2-1 yet?

#2648 Henrik B

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:15

Button was good but Hamilton was outstanding.

#2649 Rocket73

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:16

Great race...from both drivers but especially from Lewis he was very good...would have liked to see where JB could have got without a broken throttle in qualy.

#2650 Coral

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:17

Button did a great job considering his bad luck yesterday.

Lewis was epic this weekend.

Have we hit the point of 2-1 yet?


Yes. Jenson can't finish ahead of Lewis now. Which is only right as Lewis has spanked Jenson all season. :)