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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#2751 speng

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:00

:D

What a load of crap!

If that is true how come there are so many bitter LH fans in every McLaren related thread pouring their hatred out on Button? You really can't try and pretend it's no issue after 3 years of desperate and increasingly imaginative attempts to create an alternate reality where TDG thrashed JB. Seriously, you give yourselves away too much to get away with this bs and the fact that you're trying to cling to this little crumb is yet more evidence of how much it bugs you that it has been so close. LH may have got some criticism but none of the loathing that has been expressed towards JB.

Seano's stats show yet again how close it's been and not just in one or two areas that you might explain away as chance, but in every single area.

And if Lewis isn't bothered, how do you explain Twittergate. He wasn't bothered about getting beaten last year? Come on ffs.

Hate? No. I just do not think Button is as good as Hamilton and not as close as some Button fans would want to think.


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#2752 speng

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:02

:up: Thanks.
It might be a big ask but would anyone have the positions from which both retired?

Yes, I would like know as well

#2753 Henrik B

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:02

Hate? No. I just do not think Button is as good as Hamilton and not as close as some Button fans would want to think.


My gut feeling after the three years together is that Lewis' and Button fans alike deep down know that had McLaren produced a fast, reliable car with no particular problems, Lewis would be WDC. When both drivers are happy with the setup, good qualifyings, the cars hold up and no one has funny pitstops or safety cars, Lewis ends the race 10-15-20 seconds ahead. That is my impression. Not a spanking either, and Button is really good, but a clear margin in Lewis' favour.

#2754 Force Ten

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:29

When both drivers are happy with the setup, good qualifyings, the cars hold up and no one has funny pitstops or safety cars, Lewis ends the race 10-15-20 seconds ahead.

Like 2010 Canada GP or were there funny pitstops?


#2755 Dalton007

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:30

My gut feeling after the three years together is that Lewis' and Button fans alike deep down know that had McLaren produced a fast, reliable car with no particular problems, Lewis would be WDC. When both drivers are happy with the setup, good qualifyings, the cars hold up and no one has funny pitstops or safety cars, Lewis ends the race 10-15-20 seconds ahead. That is my impression. Not a spanking either, and Button is really good, but a clear margin in Lewis' favour.


I don't believe that. If the car is both to their liking, then I think Jenson would be a lot closer than 20 seconds.

#2756 David1976

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:33

My gut feeling after the three years together is that Lewis' and Button fans alike deep down know that had McLaren produced a fast, reliable car with no particular problems, Lewis would be WDC. When both drivers are happy with the setup, good qualifyings, the cars hold up and no one has funny pitstops or safety cars, Lewis ends the race 10-15-20 seconds ahead. That is my impression. Not a spanking either, and Button is really good, but a clear margin in Lewis' favour.


I concur. I would think that most team bosses would have the same opinion.

#2757 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:35

I will try to do the research for us about when they both finished,help me if get some year wrong.

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 13:35.


#2758 Dalton007

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:37

Well, Lewis did not have the dominant car in 2008 that Jenson had in 2009. Plus don't forget that Lewis had a perfectly good win taken away from him and gifted to his Championship rival. Lewis has never had a dominant car, Jenson has. I always find that very unfair. :|


I'm watching the review of 2008 and the Ferrari may have had the better car but the MAC wasn't that bad. I thought he choked in Brazil because there was no way he would be that slow in normal circumstances. I'm not taking anything away from Lewis - any driver would have that immense pressure and it would be hard to deal with.

The Brawn car wasn't always dominant. In Bahrain, Jenson didn't qualify high up but passed a number of cars to win it. Toyota should have won that one. Red Bull closed in rapidly.

#2759 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:46

2010 Ham But
Bahrein #2 #7
Australia #6 #1
Malaysia #6 #8
Chinese #2 #1
Turkey #1 #2
Canada #1 #2
Europe #2 #3
Britain #2 #4
Germany #4 #5
Japan #5 #4
Korea #2 #12
Brazil #4 #5

12 races.

Ham 9 x 3 But

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 13:46.


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#2760 Tauhid

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:49

Lewis beating JB means nothing because JB is not the target. What I've observed with JB supporters (and even JB himself) is that Lewis is the target. It doesn't seem to bother them as much that Vettel is 20 seconds up the road or 150 points ahead; as long as Lewis is behind there's a sense of accomplishment. I just don't understand that thought process. The fact that Lewis is not WC this year or even in the hunt is a failure and I can guarantee you that he feels the same way.


I couldn't agree more. Jenson made it look like he wanted to beat Lewis at all costs. Beating him last year was a one-off and it only happened because of you know why. Noone gave Jenson a chance and I still dont. I don't think he is in that level and its not just me, Jenson knows it as well. Just check the last sky sports race coverage. You could see when Simon interviewed him on the bike ride, he was rather sad and frustrated and his face admitted defeat to a better driver in the pairing.

Jenson has had 2011 Lewis type of seasons for more than half of his career, noone noticed it because they don't rate him that high apart from Prost. Throughout this season, I saw Lewis least concerned about Jenson and mostly minding his own business and concentrating on winning as many races as possible.

#2761 Rinehart

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:50

Lewis beating JB means nothing because JB is not the target. What I've observed with JB supporters (and even JB himself) is that Lewis is the target. It doesn't seem to bother them as much that Vettel is 20 seconds up the road or 150 points ahead; as long as Lewis is behind there's a sense of accomplishment. I just don't understand that thought process. The fact that Lewis is not WC this year or even in the hunt is a failure and I can guarantee you that he feels the same way.


What a nonsensical attempt at a put-down (that will doubtless earn tedious levels of "hear hears" from the usual bashers).

1. This is a JB v LH thread, OF COURSE the subject it about their relative performance on here, to not be, would be off topic....
2. Hypocrisy at its finest. Or is it just me that was originally listening to hoards of LH fans dismissing JB joining McLaren 3 years ago as a nobody who would be thrashed, but is now listening to limitless angles of argument all trying to show that their is EVEN A DIFFERENCE between them, let along a massive one!
3. Not sure what the point of you dig at JB himself was, but the sentiment in F1 is that you can only truly be measured against your teammate. Lewis in P3 in USGP "what time is Jenson doing"... would be rude NOT TO BE highly concerned and interested by your teammates relative performance IN THE SAME CAR.

I don't know why I'm explaining this. It was a cheap shot by you.

Let's leave you with what MW said of LH last season. "Lewis has been badly affected mentally by being beaten by his teammate". :wave:


Edited by Rinehart, 20 November 2012 - 13:53.


#2762 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:54

2011 Ham But
Australian #2 #6
Malaysia #8 #2
Chinese #1 #4
Turkey #4 #6
Spain #2 #3
Monaco #6 #3
Europe #4 #6
Hungary #4 #1
Italy #4 #2
Singapore #5 #2
Japan #5 #1
Korea #2 #4
India #7 #2
Abu Dhabi #1 #3

14 races.

Ham 7 x 7 But

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 13:55.


#2763 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:03

2012 Ham But
Australian #3 #1
Malaysia #3 #14
Chinese #3 #2
Spain #8 #9
Canada #1 #16
Britain #8 #10
Hungary #1 #6
Japan #5 #4
India #4 #5
USA #1 #5

10 races.

Ham 7 x 3 But

#2764 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:06

Well,if i didn't got something wrong,these are the stats when both finished a race.

36 races.

Ham 23 x 13 But

I got the results from formula1 site.

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 14:06.


#2765 inca_roads

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:06

Sorry to be out of line with the quite uncharacteristic agreement that seems to be prevailing on here (!) but I don't see their time together as team-mates as a particularly close battle. If you take out Hamilton's bad spell last season, and Button's this, there's an overall (not claiming always) trend of Hamilton qualifying ahead, being a bit faster in the race, and providing the car holds up, finishing ahead. There isn't usually a chasm in their performance or finishing position, true, but the end result is too consistently in Lewis' favour to call it close.

Plus, such a heavy qualifying deficit can't be read as anything like close unless the driver inferior in qualifying is making up for a hell of a lot of that deficit in races - and I haven't seen anything Button has done in races generally better than Hamilton except make less mistakes. (not this season, but overall) However, his advantage in this regard still hasn't been enough as firstly, most of said mistakes for Lewis occurred in late 2011, and Button's form in early-mid 2012 was so poor that he was barely scoring points for a stretch of races anyway (hence the roughly equalling out of the two spells) and secondly he's losing points at a consistent rate due to his slower pace and/or starting deficit and therefore usual lower finishing result. It is often said that you don't get any points for qualifying, which is true, but I often feel the implication is that Button is therefore equalling Hamilton in races (in fact, he'd have to better him a fair bit of the time to get even if he's starting with a deficit). I could just as easily point out that you don't tend to get car failures, bad pit stops (or the other stuff that's affected Hamilton the most) in qualifying sessions, so qualifying is more an indicator of true performance. However, this wouldn't be fair either, as Jenson is clearly closer in performance relative to Lewis in races than he is in qualifying. The answer, I feel, is somewhere in the middle. Hamilton has not been better than Button to the tune of the qualifying score, but that doesn't mean he's been equalled in races where it counts either. Bad luck has certainly hit him harder, having an effect on the points standings.

So I really didn't care that Hamilton sealed a points victory for this season, and I equally won't whichever way the total points end up, as the difference has already been proven to me. I don't expect anything like mass approval, but hey, that's the way I see it.

#2766 Henrik B

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:53

Well,if i didn't got something wrong,these are the stats when both finished a race.

36 races.

Ham 23 x 13 But

I got the results from formula1 site.


This is in numbers what my gut feeling is. I'm a bit surprised Lewis' bad spell last year only meant a draw, but I guess a string of pretty disastrous races leave a bigger impression than the good/ok ones before and after.

#2767 robefc

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:12

:up: Thanks.
It might be a big ask but would anyone have the positions from which both retired?


I think it would be quite revealing in favour of hamilton.

On the other side of the coin, retirements need to be split into reliabililty plus incidents where the other driver was awarded a penalty versus racing incidents plus accidents caused by the driver themselves.

Counting only finishes is probably unfair on button from that regard, albeit I think the analysis of 'no fault' DNFs will show lewis has lost far more points there than button.

Not expecting anyone to do the above by the way.



#2768 maverick69

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:26

I think it would be quite revealing in favour of hamilton.

On the other side of the coin, retirements need to be split into reliabililty plus incidents where the other driver was awarded a penalty versus racing incidents plus accidents caused by the driver themselves.

Counting only finishes is probably unfair on button from that regard, albeit I think the analysis of 'no fault' DNFs will show lewis has lost far more points there than button.

Not expecting anyone to do the above by the way.


P123 did a good analysis in respect to what you're talking about. But I'm on the old dog - so finding it would be a pain in the arse.


#2769 TomNokoe

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:32

I don't agree with the 3 year comparison because drivers develop over time, and 3 years is an incredibly long time. Take for example last season, Jenson was on the form of his life, and this season it has reversed and so is Lewis. It really is silly to compare years and races and this and that because of all the external factors involved. Comparing races when Jenson finishes ahead or whatever is silly, because the circumstances of each result are not taken into account. The overall points over the 3 years is almost a dead heat, which proves that statistics prove nothing. 2011 wasn't that much of a slaughtering on Jenson's side, compared to this season on Lewis' side, and Lewis had a worse 2011 than Jenson did 2012. It's all about opinion, and this is mine, and the next reply will be someone else. :)

#2770 thesham01

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:35

What a nonsensical attempt at a put-down (that will doubtless earn tedious levels of "hear hears" from the usual bashers).

1. This is a JB v LH thread, OF COURSE the subject it about their relative performance on here, to not be, would be off topic....
2. Hypocrisy at its finest. Or is it just me that was originally listening to hoards of LH fans dismissing JB joining McLaren 3 years ago as a nobody who would be thrashed, but is now listening to limitless angles of argument all trying to show that their is EVEN A DIFFERENCE between them, let along a massive one!
3. Not sure what the point of you dig at JB himself was, but the sentiment in F1 is that you can only truly be measured against your teammate. Lewis in P3 in USGP "what time is Jenson doing"... would be rude NOT TO BE highly concerned and interested by your teammates relative performance IN THE SAME CAR.

I don't know why I'm explaining this. It was a cheap shot by you.

Let's leave you with what MW said of LH last season. "Lewis has been badly affected mentally by being beaten by his teammate". :wave:


It sure did. Thats why he got thrown around like a cheap hooker this year. Oh wait, that was Button.

#2771 whitevisor

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:36

Well,if i didn't got something wrong,these are the stats when both finished a race.

36 races.

Ham 23 x 13 But

I got the results from formula1 site.


This is the real picture. :up:
Approximately 2 to 1 as well.

#2772 whitevisor

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:42

It sure did. Thats why he got thrown around like a cheap hooker this year. Oh wait, that was Button.


No, he is right!  ;)
Mentally affected to make him more complete! Jenson had no answer in 2012! Not with the tyre whispering, not with mistakes, not with Massa and not with the bubble.

#2773 TomNokoe

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:44

Interesting that Hamilton has reacted to being trashed by a team mate much better than Button.

#2774 undersquare

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:00

Even in 2011 there were I think 3 races where Lewis was actually slower.

#2775 Requiem84

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:11

Yup, and let´s not forgot that´s easier to learn to avoid crashes, than to learn how to be quick.

If there is one single conclusion we can draw from the three years they spend together, it is the fact that Lewis has inherently more speed as a racing driver.

In the end, I could never support a driver who is not among the fastest drivers in the world. Button is not, and very likely will never be. Hamilton is one of the 2 or perhaps three fastest human beings on this planet, when put in a racing car.

Yes, Button beat him fair and squaire in 2011, but only by being sensible and relying on mistakes from Hamilton. If Hamilton doesn´t make mistakes, chances are extremely slim Button can be ahead during a 20 race campaign.

#2776 speng

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:33

Yup, and let´s not forgot that´s easier to learn to avoid crashes, than to learn how to be quick.

If there is one single conclusion we can draw from the three years they spend together, it is the fact that Lewis has inherently more speed as a racing driver.

In the end, I could never support a driver who is not among the fastest drivers in the world. Button is not, and very likely will never be. Hamilton is one of the 2 or perhaps three fastest human beings on this planet, when put in a racing car.

Yes, Button beat him fair and squaire in 2011, but only by being sensible and relying on mistakes from Hamilton. If Hamilton doesn´t make mistakes, chances are extremely slim Button can be ahead during a 20 race campaign.

That is the truth

Edited by speng, 20 November 2012 - 16:34.


#2777 Coral

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:58

Let's leave you with what MW said of LH last season. "Lewis has been badly affected mentally by being beaten by his teammate". :wave:


Whitmarsh talking rubbish as per usual. IMO Lewis's problems in 2011 were mostly because of Vettel running away with the title and his being unable to compete. Not to mention Lewis's fall-out with his Dad, break-up with Nicole and being overloaded with PR duties. Nothing at all to do with being "beaten" by his teammate. :rolleyes:

#2778 jrg19

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:16

Wow 23x13 in favour of Lewis, pretty impressive against a WDC.

#2779 thesham01

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:20

Yup, and let´s not forgot that´s easier to learn to avoid crashes, than to learn how to be quick.

If there is one single conclusion we can draw from the three years they spend together, it is the fact that Lewis has inherently more speed as a racing driver.

In the end, I could never support a driver who is not among the fastest drivers in the world. Button is not, and very likely will never be. Hamilton is one of the 2 or perhaps three fastest human beings on this planet, when put in a racing car.

Yes, Button beat him fair and squaire in 2011, but only by being sensible and relying on mistakes from Hamilton. If Hamilton doesn´t make mistakes, chances are extremely slim Button can be ahead during a 20 race campaign.


That sums up the difference between the drivers; one can go out and make it happen, the other relies on external influences.

Whitmarsh talking rubbish as per usual. IMO Lewis's problems in 2011 were mostly because of Vettel running away with the title and his being unable to compete. Not to mention Lewis's fall-out with his Dad, break-up with Nicole and being overloaded with PR duties. Nothing at all to do with being "beaten" by his teammate. :rolleyes:


Of course its nonsense.

MW just has to be under threat as TP. Losing one of the best drivers in the world on your watch is not acceptable. And not just losing him to Red Bull or Ferrari, its a 5-races-in-a-row-without-points Mercedes.

MW's job is more reliant on the aerodynamists designing a good car than any other TP next year; a car that isn't a level above the rest and they'll be looking at 3rd at best, and 4th if Mercedes design a car that has any bit of reliability.


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#2780 thesham01

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:21

Wow 23x13 in favour of Lewis, pretty impressive against a WDC.


Will be brushed under the media carpet though.

#2781 rage2

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:23

My results are a little different when taking just retirements out of the equation, but keeping races with non points finish. Still shows the same picture though.

2010 (BHR, AUS, MAL, CHN, ESP, TUR, CAN, EUR, GBR, GER, JPN, KOR, BRA, ABU)
Head to Head: HAM 10 vs BUT 4
Points: HAM 204 vs BUT 180

2011 (AUS, MAL, CHN, TUR, ESP, MON, EUR, HUN, ITA, SIN, JPN, KOR, IND, ABU)
Head to Head: HAM 7 vs BUT 7
Points: HAM 190 vs BUT 215

2012 (AUS, MAL, CHN, BHR, ESP, MON, CAN, EUR, GBR, HUN, JPN, IND, USA)
Head to Head: HAM 9 vs BUT 4
Points: HAM 164 vs BUT 90

3 Year Total
Head to Head: HAM 26 vs BUT 15
Points: HAM 559 vs BUT 485

#2782 Lazy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:35

Wow 23x13 in favour of Lewis, pretty impressive against a WDC.


As Rob pointed out though, those are slanted stats, if the drivers bears some responsibility for dnf then that should not be counted. Whether any consensus could be reached on who was responsible for what though I somehow doubt.

#2783 whitevisor

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:46

As Rob pointed out though, those are slanted stats, if the drivers bears some responsibility for dnf then that should not be counted. Whether any consensus could be reached on who was responsible for what though I somehow doubt.


According to this website... Hamilton beat Button in performance in 2011:

http://f1-facts.com/...mates/LHamilton

He has a positive comparison points against Button - which means he won on overall performance! :cat:



#2784 P123

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:48

As Rob pointed out though, those are slanted stats, if the drivers bears some responsibility for dnf then that should not be counted. Whether any consensus could be reached on who was responsible for what though I somehow doubt.


Those are when both drivers finished the race.

There will always be a few oddities when looking at the retirement stats- such as Hamilton's or Button's very early retirements in Monza or Monaco.

#2785 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:52

My results are a little different when taking just retirements out of the equation, but keeping races with non points finish. Still shows the same picture though.

It really makes no sense to count Spain 2010; his 14th is only a finish in name only, given he actually ended the race in the wall due to that wheel-rim failure.

#2786 P123

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:54

Let's leave you with what MW said of LH last season. "Lewis has been badly affected mentally by being beaten by his teammate". :wave:


Paraphrased by you for effect of course.

But do you really believe that? Button was beating Hamilton in 2010. Hamilton turned that around without any great fuss. And Hamilton was leading Button in the WDC in 2011 before he decided to play dogems with Ferraris and Saubers. So maybe leading JB was the issue.  ;)

#2787 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:55

As Rob pointed out though, those are slanted stats, if the drivers bears some responsibility for dnf then that should not be counted. Whether any consensus could be reached on who was responsible for what though I somehow doubt.

I can try mate,i am lewis fan and you button,together we can make a picture of this,but is hard,lets try. :up:

About Mechanical Dnfs and punctures by debris i will jugde non fault.

Crashes its the hard one,but for example,to make it easy if there is 1% fault on our drivers will not be "non" fault.

Little Example : Hamilton x Maldonado Valencia 2012,Lewis could lift but he didn't do ANY wrong by law,so "non" fault in my opinion.
Hamilton x Kobayashi,Hamilton has some fault so i will score it like fault.

Those crashs with Massa will be funny to me... haha.

I will try to review like this for both.

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 18:01.


#2788 jrg19

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:06

Is there a score card where Button/Hamilton have inherited lead/podium or finishing higher due to a problem/incident for the other?

#2789 Lazy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:08

Those are when both drivers finished the race.

There will always be a few oddities when looking at the retirement stats- such as Hamilton's or Button's very early retirements in Monza or Monaco.


I put it badly, "should be counted" is what I should have said.

#2790 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:09

Is there a score card where Button/Hamilton have inherited lead/podium or finishing higher due to a problem/incident for the other?

I was thinking about this now,starting this new stat.

Sometimes,they finish a race but one that was ahead got a mechanical problem and ended behind.

Like Suzuka 2010,Hamilton was ahead,gearbox problem came and he let Button pass.

Looking only to statistc point of view,i should jugde like it was,Button point.

Lets try something,but now is subjective zone.

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 18:11.


#2791 marcoferrari

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:13

It is a remarkable coincidence that drivers who are easy on their car and make a conscious effort to be so, have less mechanical failures than their more aggressive team mates.

Hamilton has beaten Button by an average of 0.2s, so unless your saying Hamilton is an average qualifier, Button isn't bad either.


For me the theory about drivers that are "easy on car" is nonsense... For example Lauda was a driver who is easy on the car in 1977 and 1984 and all off sudden he became aggresive in 1985 with a lot of mechanical failures? Same goes for Piquet in 1983, 1987 and a completely different picture in 1984... Button had also more technical issues then Barrichello in 2008... And agree about Senna... Prost was only few times better/faster because of his own, mostly he just benefited from Sennas misfortune... I consider that nothing special at all... Shame that both didn t compete against each other in an era of more reliable cars (as it is now), Senna would have won without any difficulties...

#2792 Lazy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:16

I was thinking about this now,starting this new stat.

Sometimes,they finish a race but one that was ahead got a mechanical problem and ended behind.

Like Suzuka 2010,Hamilton was ahead,gearbox problem came and he let Button pass.

Looking only to statistc point of view,i should jugde like it was,Button point.

Lets try something,but now is subjective zone.


This is always the problem with these correction attempts, they always end up subjective and messy. How do you score Canada 2011 for instance? Or the Maldonado thing, yes he technically did no wrong but Button probably would have lifted and stayed in the race. etc etc

#2793 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:44

Subjective stat result analysing Dnfs and failures.
2010
TRACK / RESULT / (SUBJECTIVE RESULT)

Bahrein HAM
Australian BUT
Malaysia HAM
Chinese BUT
Spain BUT HAM ("Accident"/Got a puncture and ended on the wall,was fair ahead of Button,failure i am almost sure happened on lap 64/66.)
Monaco HAM* (Stat says Button had a engine problem,Hamilton started #5,Button started #8,i didn't put subjective here but not sure if button was ahead or behind on the race,someone help me here if i got it wrong.)
Turkey HAM
Canada HAM
Europe HAM
Britain HAM
Germany HAM
Hungary BUT HAM ("Gearbox"/Lap 23 Hamilton suffered a gearbox failure,Hamilton started #5,Button started #11,Hamilton was ahead of Button on the time of failure,but 23 laps still early for some people,but i will judge this subjective stat to Ham.)
Belgium HAM* (Button was second on the race to Lewis,but was taken out of the race by Vettel,didn't put subjective because he was behind,just because it.)
Italy BUT* (Hamilton crashed with Massa on lap 1 and was behind Button)
Singapore BUT* (Hamilton crashed ahead of Button,was a crash with Webber,but to my rigid rules he had some fault.)
JapanBUT HAM (Hamilton had a gearbox problem ahead of Button,when Button came he let Button pass like a good team mate do but finished the race.)
KoreaHAM
BrazilHAM
Abu Dhabi HAM

Subjective Stat:
19 races.

HAM 15 x 4 BUT

Actual Stat by Formula 1:
19 races.
HAM 12 X 7 BUT

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 20:12.


#2794 rsherb

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:05

MW just has to be under threat as TP. Losing one of the best drivers in the world on your watch is not acceptable. And not just losing him to Red Bull or Ferrari, its a 5-races-in-a-row-without-points Mercedes.


I guess, on the bright side for MW and McLaren, losing Lewis to Mercedes is somewhat better than to Red Bull or Ferrari...at least if Mercedes don't turn around their form Lewis won't be doing too much damage, and without results or hope of results it might be sooner rather than later before he wants to come back home. I'm a big fan of Lewis, and I love the way he'll extract the most out of the car...but I'm not sure he's a driver to lead a mid-grid team to the top, and I don't want to see him wasting his time trying...I want him winning the 2013 WDC...not on a 2 or 3 year plan for the 2014 or 2015 title!

It would be a shame for Perez, but as a fan of McLaren and Lewis, I'd like to see him back in the right place ASAP. As much as I also like and rate Button very highly, McLaren are probably going to really miss the edge in qualifying that they had with Hamilton...unless they really can either find something in the car's performance or in unlocking one-lap performance from Button, or both. I just found the Hamilton and Button pairing as ideal (especially as a fan of McLaren and both drivers), and at least while Hamilton was ahead (however you want to over-analyze it) there was very little friction and always plenty of respect for each other.

Button will no doubt lead the team after Hamilton's departure, but it will be a team missing something....and I fear neither Championship will come their way. If Button beats Perez in qualifying, but isn't beating Red Bull or Ferrari, whether the team (with all their data) don't see any time being lost, it will help bolster a lot of armchair analysts beliefs. With both Hamilton and Button in the team, you just knew you were pretty much seeing everything the car could do.

I don't blame MW for Lewis leaving, and part of the reason I like McLaren is the way it's run as a team...Lewis obviously needed to spread his wings and fly the nest...I'm just hoping he'll fly back before too long having learnt a few things along the way!

#2795 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:17

Subjective stat result analysing Dnfs and failures.
2011
TRACK / RESULT / (SUBJECTIVE RESULT)
Australian HAM
Malaysia BUT
Chinese HAM
Turkey HAM
Spain HAM
Monaco BUT
Canada BUT* ("Crash".Button and Hamilton had a crash,Hamilton was faster and tried the overtake but Button didn't saw him,hard to me judge it like a lewis fan but he already had crashed with Webber before,was his fault that he came behind Button,i don't if i can judge that he had really fault on the crash but for sure he was behing Button when it happened,so i will not put the subjective here.)
Europe HAM
Britain HAM* ("Pit stop Major Error"This was ironic funny to judge,so much s* happened to both drivers,tks Mclaren.Lets go : Button started #5,Hamilton started #10,Hamilton came overtaking many people and Button was one of them,Hamilton smoked Button there so when the pit stop problem Happened with Button,Hamilton was still strategic ahead on the race.Later on the race,Mclaren discovered that Hamilton was underfueled and he had to manage fuel very hard,i don't know because of this if Button would be ahead on the final,both had a major problem and my judge was to still the result because Hamilton overtook Button on the track and got away from him.)
Germany HAM* ("Hydraulic Problem".Hamilton was fighting for victory against Webber/Alonso when Button retired with this problem)
Hungary BUT
Belgium BUT* ("Crash".Hamilton crashed with Koba kun,was ahead of Button,but again my rules about crashes so Button point.)
Italy BUT
Singapore BUT
Japan BUT
Korea HAM
India BUT
Abu Dhabi HAM
Brazil BUT* ("Gearbox".Hamilton had a gearbox failure but was behind button i believe.)

Subjective Stat:
19 races.

HAM 9 x 10 BUT

Actual Stat by Formula 1:
19 races.

HAM 9 X 10 BUT




#2796 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:21

I will not enter deep in the zone of pit stops errors that didn't result on dnf and some bizarre mistakes on qualifying that affect sunday,i will just play like that above with the stats so we can't get lost on our bias.

Talking this because 2012 is coming and Mclaren was superb. :lol:

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 19:22.


#2797 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:38

Subjective stat result analysing Dnfs and failures.
2010
18 races.
HAM 11 X 7 BUT

Is there a reason you missed Abu Dhabi? Lewis finished second with Button third.

I'm about to put up some charts, and in doing so I calculated the following stats:

Round spend leading the WDC:
Hamilton 7 (5,0,2)
Button 3 (3,0,0)

Rounds ahead of each other in the WDC
2010 Hamilton 13, Button 6
2011 Hamilton 8, Button 11
2012 Hamilton19, Button 1
Net Hamilton 40, Button 18

#2798 thesham01

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:50

These stats really fill out the picture better. We're getting a far more accurate view of their time together when we take all of these things together.



#2799 ForeverF1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:57

These stats really fill out the picture better. We're getting a far more accurate view of their time together when we take all of these things together.

Be that as it may, history will record that Button (to the chargrin of Hamilton's über supporters), was the first and only (to date) team-mate to beat him.

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#2800 Tauhid

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:00

Be that as it may, history will record that Button (to the chargrin of Hamilton's über supporters), was the first and only (to date) team-mate to beat him.


And I suppose most Button supporters like you would rather take a 1/3 season head to head win over Hamilton rather than a championship win. Fits just right given that's just exactly how Button goes racing as well.

Edited by Tauhid, 20 November 2012 - 20:02.