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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#2801 tifosiMac

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:04

Be that as it may, history will record that Button (to the chargrin of Hamilton's über supporters), was the first and only (to date) team-mate to beat him.

Having witnessed the 2011 season myself, I would say we saw a very good consistent Button and at times a very poor frustrated Hamilton. It wasn't the fairy tale of two drivers on top of their game battling it out like Senna and Prost. Still a win is a win and if Jenson and his fans feel motivated by it then fair enough. The points table doesn't display the true gap between the McLaren drivers this season IMO. It looks a damn sight closer than it actually has been.

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#2802 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:06

Subjective stat result analysing Dnfs and failures.
2012
TRACK / RESULT / (SUBJECTIVE RESULT)
Australian BUT
Malaysia HAM
Chinese BUT
Bahrein HAM BUT ("Exhaust/differential" Hardest for me now to jugde,because my rules makes the better performance driver lose the context the subjective result.Hamilton starts ahead of Button,but with a bad pit stop he comes behind,later on i think Hamilton has another bad pit stop and goes more behind and i think he wouldn't get ahead without a mechanical problem to Button.Strange one but it is like it is.)
Spain HAM
Monaco HAM* ("Accident damage" On lap 70,Button who was fighting very away behind got a contat with Kovalainen i think and got to garage later.)
Canada HAM
Europe BUT HAM ("Accident" Well,this time i absolve Hamilton because in the eyes of law he didn't anything wrong and was hitted by Maldonado who was coming out of the track and losed control on the kerb.Hamilton was ahead of Button so i voted subjective result to him.)
Britain HAM
Germany BUT* ("Puncture",Hamilton got a puncture on lap 1 but was behind Button,to not overcomplicate things i will stay this like this.)
Hungary HAM
BelgiumBUT* ("Accident",Grosjean made contact with Hamilton on the start of the race,well lap 1 again accident but Hamilton losed the intra team battle of special wing so i will stay this like this.)
Italy HAM* ("Fuel system" Button got a fuel system problem and retired,but was behind Hamilton,no subjective result for me.)
Singapore BUT HAM ("Gearbox" Hamilton had a gearbox failure leading the race,i don't think button would catch him without the problem so i put subjective result here.)
Japan BUT
Korea HAM* ("Accident" Lap 1 accident,Button started away behind and Sauber Boys were banzai and got him,with Hamilton problems and without the crash he woud probably be ahead by the end,didn't put just because he was behind when this happened.
India HAM
Abu Dhabi BUT HAM ("Fuel Pressure",Hamilton again leading when his car lost power,i don't think button would get him under normal conditions,so i go to subjective result.
USA HAM

Subjective Stat:
19 races.

HAM 13 x 6 BUT

Actual Stat by Formula 1:
19 races.

HAM 11 X 8 BUT

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 21:00.


#2803 ForeverF1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:11

Having witnessed the 2011 season myself, I would say we saw a very good consistent Button and at times a very poor frustrated Hamilton. It wasn't the fairy tale of two drivers on top of their game battling it out like Senna and Prost. Still a win is a win and if Jenson and his fans feel motivated by it then fair enough. The points table doesn't display the true gap between the McLaren drivers this season IMO. It looks a damn sight closer than it actually has been.

Again, be that as it may, history will not show the shoulda, couda or woulda.

#2804 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:11

Is there a reason you missed Abu Dhabi? Lewis finished second with Button third.

I'm about to put up some charts, and in doing so I calculated the following stats:

Round spend leading the WDC:
Hamilton 7 (5,0,2)
Button 3 (3,0,0)

Rounds ahead of each other in the WDC
2010 Hamilton 13, Button 6
2011 Hamilton 8, Button 11
2012 Hamilton19, Button 1
Net Hamilton 40, Button 18

I forgot mate,thanks to help me,everyone can see and help or don't agree and say.


#2805 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:17

Here is a comparison of their respective seasons. I've plotted it as a deficit against the current points leader, as the ultimate test of a good weekend is you have managed to close the gap to the leader (or extended it to second).

2010

Posted Image

After a slow start, Lewis had a strong season season wrecked by that run of three poor results (Italy, Singapore, Japan). By comparison, I think it shows how poor Jenson's year ended up. It started strong and he left Spain in the lead. Two consecutive second places (Turkey, Canada) allowed him to undo some of the damage from the Monaco DNF. However after that it was a failure; only once in ten races did he leave in a better position than when he arrived (his second in Italy). For all his talk of "while it's still mathematically possible", he wasn't even managing to tread water.

2011

Posted Image

As a Ham fan, I'm going to skip over this one ;)

2012

Posted Image

As a Ham Ham fan, I'm going to point out that the closing of the gap by Button was only due to those two wins Lewis lost from mechanical failures....

All three
Posted Image

Such was Vettel's dominance last year, Button's second in the standards is only their fifth best relative performance.

Edited by MrAerodynamicist, 20 November 2012 - 20:18.


#2806 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:20

Subjective stat result analysing Dnfs and failures by Boxerevo.

Subjective stat: HAM 37 X 20 BUT



Actual Stat by Formula 1: HAM 33 X 24 BUT

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 21:01.


#2807 SerratedEdge

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:21

He is among the top overtakers in the field. He probably doesn't get enough credit for it as his career is littered with great moves. Watching Kimi and Button fight was particularly great as both are exceptionally fair racers.



Correct.

#2808 Rocket73

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:23

And I suppose most Button supporters like you would rather take a 1/3 season head to head win over Hamilton rather than a championship win. Fits just right given that's just exactly how Button goes racing as well.


oh god talk about going around in circles

#2809 ForeverF1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:29

And I suppose most Button supporters like you would rather take a 1/3 season head to head win over Hamilton rather than a championship win. Fits just right given that's just exactly how Button goes racing as well.

Who cares? A medioca driver will be recorded as the first one to beat(to date) the illustrious Hamilton.

#2810 tifosiMac

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:43

Again, be that as it may, history will not show the shoulda, couda or woulda.

That depends if you want to look at one result or have enough interest to see how that season evolved.

#2811 MightyMoose

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:45

Seems several who frequent this thread need to not only understand how to "lose", but also how to "win". (Not only talking about this season either before everyone jumps on the anti-LH bandwagon).

Sad that such a lack of grace is the prevailing memory you seem intent to offer.

We have generally got a consensus that it's 2-1 to LH, who is often the faster driver but JB maximizes (often - not EVERY time) what he can bring home.

As far as I can tell, that means that LH may well be a great driver, but it's the perception of JB not being a useless wanker that creates 90% of the aggro here. JB isn't shit, he just may not be quite as good as LH, and is there any shame in that? Surely not if you're putting LH up as the best, then his team-mate who scored almost as many points as him in their time together brings some positives to the table.....

As for the only count races they finished, sorry but to my mind that's a far worse position to take than "Points tell the ONLY story". Retirements are a part of racing, sometimes it'll be a mechanical issue, sometimes the driver will be at fault, but if you don't finish, you don't score and that's the end of it. Anything beyond that is subjectivity and far too many allow their own personal bias to affect how they see it for it to be worth too much, it quickly falls into a "he said/she said" situation to the detriment of the board.

#2812 P123

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:46

Who cares? A medioca driver will be recorded as the first one to beat(to date) the illustrious Hamilton.


Button mediocre? The illustrious Hamilton? Too much baiting going on in here.....?

Over their time together Hamilton has been overall the better performer, hard as it is for some to accept. The gap between the two is however small, hard as that is for some to accept. Both have excelled, and both have had their dips in form. 2-1 seems a fair reflection of their time together.

#2813 Rinehart

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:49

Thousands and thousands of posts, from every conceivable angle, however stretched, however barrel scraping, however selective, all badged as "objective" to give a faux claim of authenticy, ALL desperately trying, somehow, to widen the gap between Lewis and Jenson.

And apparently Jenson and his fans are the ones preocupied by Lewis Hamilton....

Surely YOU should be more worried by the gap to Vettel and Alonso (and Senna)....  ;)

:rotfl:


#2814 P123

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:51

As for the only count races they finished, sorry but to my mind that's a far worse position to take than "Points tell the ONLY story". Retirements are a part of racing, sometimes it'll be a mechanical issue, sometimes the driver will be at fault, but if you don't finish, you don't score and that's the end of it. Anything beyond that is subjectivity and far too many allow their own personal bias to affect how they see it for it to be worth too much, it quickly falls into a "he said/she said" situation to the detriment of the board.


A bit contradictory. Only counting the races they both finished in terms of who finished ahead gets rid of the bickering over the ones where one of them didn't, and the could have/ should have noise around those.

#2815 ForeverF1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:53

Button mediocre? The illustrious Hamilton? Too much baiting going on in here.....?

Over their time together Hamilton has been overall the better performer, hard as it is for some to accept. The gap between the two is however small, hard as that is for some to accept. Both have excelled, and both have had their dips in form. 2-1 seems a fair reflection of their time together.

Not baiting at all, just reflecting on the (perceived) majority of posts in this thread.  ;)

#2816 tifosiMac

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:57

A bit contradictory. Only counting the races they both finished in terms of who finished ahead gets rid of the bickering over the ones where one of them didn't, and the could have/ should have noise around those.

Exactly.
Suggesting races where a driver retires through no fault of their own can not be used to compare, is nonsense. I haven't said Button is a bad driver and he's pushed Hamilton a lot closer than I thought he ever would. Button may not be one of the top 3 drivers, but he is very capable of winning. Credit to Jenson, but I am pleased that Lewis has ended his McLaren career beating his teammate. There's no malice in that.

#2817 ForeverF1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:02

Exactly.
Suggesting races where a driver retires through no fault of their own can not be used to compare, is nonsense. I haven't said Button is a bad driver and he's pushed Hamilton a lot closer than I thought he ever would. Button may not be one of the top 3 drivers, but he is very capable of winning. Credit to Jenson, but I am pleased that Lewis has ended his McLaren career beating his teammate. There's no malice in that.

I doubt that the most ardent Button supporter will profess that Button is on the level of Hamilton.
Lewis, to date, is a promise unfulfilled.

#2818 Coral

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:05

Thousands and thousands of posts, from every conceivable angle, however stretched, however barrel scraping, however selective, all badged as "objective" to give a faux claim of authenticy, ALL desperately trying, somehow, to widen the gap between Lewis and Jenson.

And apparently Jenson and his fans are the ones preocupied by Lewis Hamilton....

Surely YOU should be more worried by the gap to Vettel and Alonso (and Senna).... ;)

:rotfl:


What gap is that then?! Oh maybe you mean the one of nearly 40 seconds that Lewis beat Alonso by last Sunday? I rather think I can live with gaps like that! ;) :p


#2819 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:08

Thousands and thousands of posts, from every conceivable angle, however stretched, however barrel scraping, however selective, all badged as "objective" to give a faux claim of authenticy, ALL desperately trying, somehow, to widen the gap between Lewis and Jenson.

And apparently Jenson and his fans are the ones preocupied by Lewis Hamilton....

Surely YOU should be more worried by the gap to Vettel and Alonso (and Senna)....;)

:rotfl:

I am looking to the same gap that make someone with 2 titles higher rated for many than someone with 7.

And that is a hell of a gap.

Without the death thing ffs. ;)

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 21:09.


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#2820 P123

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:08

Suggesting races where a driver retires through no fault of their own can not be used to compare, is nonsense.


I meant that you don't even need to look at those if you're woried about subjective veiws clogging up the thread, as Mightmoose indicated. Looking at races where they both finished seems a fair way of judging relative performance. There is certainly a large enough number of those races to minimise the risk that any 'quirky' races will skew things one way or another.

#2821 P123

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:14

I doubt that the most ardent Button supporter will profess that Button is on the level of Hamilton.
Lewis, to date, is a promise unfulfilled.


Perhaps, but there are a number who can also profess a great deal of bullshit about Hamilton, regardless of thel blame meter pointing 90% at Hamilton fans.

Not sure if you can seperate Hamilton's unfulfilled promise from that of McLaren's.

#2822 Rocket73

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:14

Fair play to those who have spent a lot of time putting those stats together... that said stats are notoriously dodgy and maleable. as i said earlier i believe that lewis has shown that he is the better driver but this argument will probably go on into the next season or two as we compare lewis and rosberg (the first time he will compete out of macca) as well as button and perez in an effort to confirm or deny certain aspects of the main debates that we have toiled over here.

i for one will be watching how many gearboxes lewis gets through at mercedes ;)

#2823 PNSD

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:18

Lewis dominated Button this year.

Final score.

2-1 to Lewis.

/Thread.

(surely?)

#2824 Rocket73

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:18

and although the overall points issue is a thorny one i still think it's fantastic that after three years of intense competition it goes down to the last race to decide...

#2825 tifosiMac

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:30

Lewis, to date, is a promise unfulfilled.

So are McLaren in that respect. Always a top team and rarely a championship winner has been their story for the past 15 years. Its difficult to gage how much Hamilton has under achieved without comparing him to Vettel. Then again Hamilton hasn't had the car combined with the superb support Seb has had over the past few years. I don't think you'll find many people who believe Hamilton wouldn't be able to dominate in similar fashion should he have the right support. Seb is a very talented driver too, one of the best no doubt. If Hamilton is a promise unfulfilled then the likes of Alonso and Button are right up there with him realistically considering how many years they have been in the sport combined with WDC's. This gets back to my point of only concentrating on the results rather than the sheer talent behind the wheel. Alonso is still considered the most complete driver on the grid if not the out right best by many, yet he hasn't won a championship for what is heading into 7 season's. That's the best part of a decade, yet with some drivers we are able to look past results.

#2826 tifosiMac

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:33

and although the overall points issue is a thorny one i still think it's fantastic that after three years of intense competition it goes down to the last race to decide...

True. If Hamilton has a hydraulic failure in Brazil or something similar which takes him out of the race (even if he is leading with only a matter of laps left), we will be able to hail Button as the victor. Three seasons together and thrashing a driver that some of us hold as the better of the two. Again credit to Button for putting the car in the right place where it counts.

#2827 thesham01

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:38

I'm gonna be honest; if Button finishes with more points it will be a robbery of the highest order. Fortunately I have a feeling Hamilton will win.

#2828 ForeverF1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:48

So are McLaren in that respect. Always a top team and rarely a championship winner has been their story for the past 15 years. Its difficult to gage how much Hamilton has under achieved without comparing him to Vettel. Then again Hamilton hasn't had the car combined with the superb support Seb has had over the past few years. I don't think you'll find many people who believe Hamilton wouldn't be able to dominate in similar fashion should he have the right support. Seb is a very talented driver too, one of the best no doubt. If Hamilton is a promise unfulfilled then the likes of Alonso and Button are right up there with him realistically considering how many years they have been in the sport combined with WDC's. This gets back to my point of only concentrating on the results rather than the sheer talent behind the wheel. Alonso is still considered the most complete driver on the grid if not the out right best by many, yet he hasn't won a championship for what is heading into 7 season's. That's the best part of a decade, yet with some drivers we are able to look past results.

No, McLaren's modus operandi is to win races, championships are secondary. Driver fans want championships.

#2829 robefc

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:55

No, McLaren's modus operandi is to win races, championships are secondary. Driver fans want championships.


My favourite thing about F1 versus my other favourite sport, football, is that each race is so important, a huge event that lasts for 3 days and that all the teams compete against each other at, rather than simply one of 10 games that weekend with another 40 weekends to come.

Winning a gp is a big deal regardless of championship standings.

But is that actually they're accepted modus operandi or just some cr@p Dennis spouted this year to defend his team?

#2830 f1fastestlap

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:02

My favourite thing about F1 versus my other favourite sport, football, is that each race is so important, a huge event that lasts for 3 days and that all the teams compete against each other at, rather than simply one of 10 games that weekend with another 40 weekends to come.

Winning a gp is a big deal regardless of championship standings.

But is that actually they're accepted modus operandi or just some cr@p Dennis spouted this year to defend his team?


That's about right...

#2831 ForeverF1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:07

My favourite thing about F1 versus my other favourite sport, football, is that each race is so important, a huge event that lasts for 3 days and that all the teams compete against each other at, rather than simply one of 10 games that weekend with another 40 weekends to come.

Winning a gp is a big deal regardless of championship standings.

But is that actually they're accepted modus operandi or just some cr@p Dennis spouted this year to defend his team?

It may well be cr@p, but he has spouted it for many a year.

#2832 peroa

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:19

It may well be cr@p, but he has spouted it for many a year.

Oh, really? He did? Because Monza 2012 was about the first time I heard about it, and I've been following for some +15 years.

I guess that is why they were so desperate to get that No.1 on their car in 2010.

Edited by peroa, 20 November 2012 - 22:20.


#2833 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:26

Well,even if it is to win races that they exist,they missed at least good 3 of them this year.

#2834 ForeverF1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:30

Well,even if it is to win races that they exist,they missed at least good 3 of them this year.

Indeed, and, in the voice of Professor M, "Oh dear, it happened again."

#2835 robefc

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:32

It may well be cr@p, but he has spouted it for many a year.


Thanks

I can see the sense in it to be honest so if he has consistently said it then fair enough.

#2836 thesham01

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:35

No, McLaren's modus operandi is to win races, championships are secondary. Driver fans want championships.


Thats not totally true.

How happy were Red Bull in Austin? The WDC is a massive, massive trophy, and in my opinion McLarens 'we win races, not championships' line is to protect the fact they have failed at their targets.

#2837 superdelphinus

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:37

Yeah he repeats the mantra ad nauseum

#2838 ForeverF1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:39

Thats not totally true.

How happy were Red Bull in Austin? The WDC is a massive, massive trophy, and in my opinion McLarens 'we win races, not championships' line is to protect the fact they have failed at their targets.

Then, you do not know McLaren.

#2839 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:46

Then, you do not know McLaren.

But lets think about it,if its really what they feel,they are now "business" like hell.

I was talking it with my girlfriend,i said something like this : "Mclaren now is on a position,that they can profit and be stable just winning some races here and there,they feel good and sustainable by the system like it is right now."

They are PR machine like no one else.

Its like they can relax and screw some races,because they will do very good on others and the balance on the end of the year isn't really bad at all.

Always on top 3 for many years,always winning grands prix,profit always coming,why we need more ?

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 22:51.


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#2840 slmk

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:48

Here is a comparison of their respective seasons. I've plotted it as a deficit against the current points leader, as the ultimate test of a good weekend is you have managed to close the gap to the leader (or extended it to second).

2010

Posted Image

After a slow start, Lewis had a strong season season wrecked by that run of three poor results (Italy, Singapore, Japan). By comparison, I think it shows how poor Jenson's year ended up. It started strong and he left Spain in the lead. Two consecutive second places (Turkey, Canada) allowed him to undo some of the damage from the Monaco DNF. However after that it was a failure; only once in ten races did he leave in a better position than when he arrived (his second in Italy). For all his talk of "while it's still mathematically possible", he wasn't even managing to tread water.


Mr. Aero, LH had a flat tire in Japan 2010... that's why he dropped relatively quickly after start.

#2841 tifosiMac

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:51

No, McLaren's modus operandi is to win races, championships are secondary. Driver fans want championships.

Every team in the Formula One World Championship is there to compete and win the Formula One World Championship. Winning races is part of that and the strive to win races enables a team to get closer to that goal. Dennis may well say that winning races is their primary aim but that's pressure relief in front of the media. That's a bit like when teams claim to be extremely happy with car development when they are clearly the third best team on the grid. A lot of BS is spouted when interviewers are fishing for answers.

#2842 SophieB

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:16

Oh, really? He did? Because Monza 2012 was about the first time I heard about it, and I've been following for some +15 years.

I guess that is why they were so desperate to get that No.1 on their car in 2010.


He talks about the whole 'Mclaren's mission statement is to win GPs, not championships' thing in an interview that's an extra on the F1 2006 season review DVD.

#2843 paulrobs

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:09

To all JB fans then....

1. What would be a good season for Jenson next year?
2. What would be an acceptable season for Jenson next year?
3. Or will you just remain happy if he beats Lewis in the standings?

#2844 bub

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:24

Be that as it may, history will record that Button (to the chargrin of Hamilton's über supporters), was the first and only (to date) team-mate to beat him.


History also shows Schumacher losing to Rosberg, Raikkonen to Heidfeld, Alonso to some guy I've never heard of and probably many other examples. How much difference does it really make to their standings as drivers? At least Hamilton lost to a WDC

Lewis, to date, is a promise unfulfilled.


I have to disagree with this. I think you have to judge a driver by his driving and Lewis has driven pretty well. You can't really have asked for much more, if you do then you are the one making him out to be illustrious. If you expect him to make no mistakes, never be beaten and always be perfect then you are the one making him out to be TDG.

As far as Hamilton's statistics I think he's up there with some pretty big names. Just because guys like Vettel and Schumacher have multiple WDC's doesn't mean Hamilton hasn't fulfilled his promise. It may be called a drivers championship but you are massively reliant on the car and the team. Having the car and team performance is basically luck because its completely out of the drivers control. Vettel is lucky RBR have been able to provide him with such competitive cars, he didn't build them himself as far as I know. If they had happened to build poor cars he wouldn't have been so successful. Because he wouldn't deserve it? No because of bad luck out of his control

Edited by bub, 21 November 2012 - 12:02.


#2845 Lazy

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:26

To all JB fans then....

1. What would be a good season for Jenson next year?


WDC

2. What would be an acceptable season for Jenson next year?


Beating Checo.

3. Or will you just remain happy if he beats Lewis in the standings?


Depends how good the Merc is.


#2846 PARAZAR

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:37

My opinion is that Jenson makes up on Sunday what he lacks on Saturday. I think he's done quite well for himself considering he's not a great qualifier and Lewis is cosidered to be the best, other people may suggest that it's Vettel. You won't find a Button fan that will say that he's a better qualifier or faster than Lewis. But my opinion is that on racecraft they're pretty much equal. At the end of the day no matter how many stats people come up with that favours one over the other, I don't think anyone here will change their mind. So we can basically just agree to disagree. I for one look forward to next year to see how Jenson performs, what Perez can do in a better car and also what Lewis can do in the Mercedes and how he performs against Rosberg.

#2847 fed up

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:42

My opinion is that Jenson makes up on Sunday what he lacks on Saturday. I think he's done quite well for himself considering he's not a great qualifier and Lewis is cosidered to be the best, other people may suggest that it's Vettel. You won't find a Button fan that will say that he's a better qualifier or faster than Lewis. But my opinion is that on racecraft they're pretty much equal. At the end of the day no matter how many stats people come up with that favours one over the other, I don't think anyone here will change their mind. So we can basically just agree to disagree. I for one look forward to next year to see how Jenson performs, what Perez can do in a better car and also what Lewis can do in the Mercedes and how he performs against Rosberg.


Disagree!

Qualifying is 80% driver, racecraft is 80% team.

A slow qualifier has different options like alternative stratgies etc.

Lewis has been let down by the team and machinery which has affected his race/craft.

Without quali speed Jenson will never be in a position to challenge for top honours. Period.

#2848 PARAZAR

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:48

Disagree!

Qualifying is 80% driver, racecraft is 80% team.

A slow qualifier has different options like alternative stratgies etc.

Lewis has been let down by the team and machinery which has affected his race/craft.

Without quali speed Jenson will never be in a position to challenge for top honours. Period.


Really? Strategy is up to the team, racecraft is up to the driver. Is it the team picking where to brake, how to come out of the corner, at which point to overtake, how to overtake etc. So basically for 50+ laps a driver is going round a circuit doing just 20% of the work. Maybe they should just get one of the mechanics to drive the car on Sunday then.

#2849 Rocket73

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:17

Not sure where the last line came from, it wasn't in my post


yeah i didnt quite get that right it was meant to be outside the quote box...i was trying to show that your third question is a bit ridiculous...in fact quite a lot ridiculous..

it seems that you want jb fans to just want to beat lewis...if so it's a figment of your imagination

#2850 Force Ten

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:20

To all JB fans then....

3. Or will you just remain happy if he beats Lewis in the standings?

It will be the third, as at is established in this thread by Lewis Hamilton fans we Jenson Button fans only care about Lewis Hamilton. Lewis is the measuring stick, I mean, if it were not for Lewis we wouldn't even know how to be a Button fan as there would be nothing to be a fan of, right? How can be fans of a driver if we can't define the fandom as a device of takedown of a rival driver?

... yeah, maybe not.

What you Hamilton fans really should try to take on board is that most of JB fans don't define their fandom via the vehicle provided The Driving God Lewis Hamilton AT ALL. Even if Lewis never existed we still would be JB fans. What it seems to be hard to grasp is that there is life out there that doesn't in any way whatsoever include Lewis Hamilton.