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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#2901 SophieB

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:02

I've actually warmed to Hamilton a lot more since the Merc announcement. He's become much more likeable to me. I think I will be supporting him next year as much as Button. :up:


I read this thread more than I post in it but I wanted to say it's really cool of you to be giving credit where you think it's due like this. It's all too easy for all of us sports fans to get locked into adversarial type positions needlessly. Glad you're enjoying some of the fun that can come from supporting Lewis too :)

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#2902 garoidb

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:08

Let's take this to the JB - LH thread... but my post wasn't premature schadenfreude - if you can't recognize that Lewis has been outstanding in qualifying this year, then I don't know what to say. Button has never been a good qualifier with McLaren, something he will have to fix as team leader next year (and especially paired with a driver not known for his 1-lap pace.


I was not referring to your posts, but a strand of opinion that seems to pervade threads to do with Lewis and McLaren. Lewis has been good this year, much better than last year, but it is not really relevant to McLaren's 2013 season because (a) he will not be at McLaren next year, and (b) he is likely to be neutralised by a less competitive Mercedes next year. The real question is - if McLaren develop a good enough car, can Jenson win races and challenge for the WDC. The answer is: quite possibly, IMO.

Lewis' departure will put pressure on the engineering team for that exact reason (Lewis can drive around problems better than Jenson). They will need a balanced car that can warm tyre easily and that has a wide setup range.


I don't see that as pressure really. By the way, driving around problems usually doesn't win WDCs. If he pulls it off on Sunday, Alonso will be the only contemporary exception that I can think of. WDCs are normally won by a good car with good set ups and a driver who is fast and consistent in that well set-up car. Hence, it is not unthinkable that Button could win another WDC, or that Massa could be much stronger in a well sorted Ferrari and challenge Alonso in the way he was originally expected to. Hamilton and Alonso can drive around problems, and have won races because of it, but it is not the key to winning WDCs.

Re: 2013 odds, ... interesting that you take the side of "Mercedes 2013 campaign is an empty PR spiel"... conversely, I could say bookies have 1) no trust in McLaren to turn it around operationally and in terms of reliability and 2) don't think JB is WDC material with such a tight field.


I think the bookies odds reflect betting patterns of punters, not so much their considered opinions on F1.

#2903 slmk

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:30

I was not referring to your posts, but a strand of opinion that seems to pervade threads to do with Lewis and McLaren. Lewis has been good this year, much better than last year, but it is not really relevant to McLaren's 2013 season because (a) he will not be at McLaren next year, and (b) he is likely to be neutralised by a less competitive Mercedes next year. The real question is - if McLaren develop a good enough car, can Jenson win races and challenge for the WDC. The answer is: quite possibly, IMO.



I don't see that as pressure really. By the way, driving around problems usually doesn't win WDCs. If he pulls it off on Sunday, Alonso will be the only contemporary exception that I can think of. WDCs are normally won by a good car with good set ups and a driver who is fast and consistent in that well set-up car. Hence, it is not unthinkable that Button could win another WDC, or that Massa could be much stronger in a well sorted Ferrari and challenge Alonso in the way he was originally expected to. Hamilton and Alonso can drive around problems, and have won races because of it, but it is not the key to winning WDCs.



I think the bookies odds reflect betting patterns of punters, not so much their considered opinions on F1.


McLaren produced a near WDC-capable car in 2010 (EBD shortcoming) and a strong WDC-capable car in 2012 (except for reliability of course, but it had pace). With all due respect, Jenson was nowhere (down the line) in both seasons.


#2904 garoidb

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:39

McLaren produced a near WDC-capable car in 2010 (EBD shortcoming) and a strong WDC-capable car in 2012 (except for reliability of course, but it had pace). With all due respect, Jenson was nowhere (down the line) in both seasons.


It is going to have to be a better car/operations combination than either 2010 or 2012. Neither Lewis nor Jenson finished in the top three in 2010, and 2012 looks doubtful too. However, Jenson did win races in both of those seasons.

#2905 Boxerevo

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:48

If Mclaren comes with a dominant car and Jeson likes it,be prepared to see a 2009 again.

Jeson is all "balance" and no grip,but if for some reason he likes the car and the car is dominant he will do the job.

Don't be delusional about this.

#2906 thesham01

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:48

It is going to have to be a better car/operations combination than either 2010 or 2012. Neither Lewis nor Jenson finished in the top three in 2010, and 2012 looks doubtful too. However, Jenson did win races in both of those seasons.


Do you think its possible next year to design a car good enough for Button? It's going to be just as tight, and maybe even tighter, next year. I doubt they can, or at least can for long enough.

#2907 garoidb

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:03

Do you think its possible next year to design a car good enough for Button? It's going to be just as tight, and maybe even tighter, next year. I doubt they can, or at least can for long enough.


I do think it is possible, which is the point I am trying to make. I think it is more likely he will hover in 3rd or 4th place in the WDC, which would be about par for McLaren these days.

#2908 Wingnut

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:25

The sad truth about the MP4-28 will be that no matter how well the two drivers do in it, you'll have pretty strong evidence based on the last 3 years that there will be time "left on the table" at the end of Q3. Even if Button or Perez sticks it on pole, i'll always have the nagging feeling that "Lewis wouldve gotten more out of it". McLaren will sorely miss that benchmark, because the days when Lewis didnt get the max (or more than Button did at least) out of the cars potential pace are few and very far between.


Completely agree. I'll be ordering my McLaren WWLD (What Would Lewis Do) wristbands as soon as they are available.

#2909 garoidb

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:31

The sad truth about the MP4-28 will be that no matter how well the two drivers do in it, you'll have pretty strong evidence based on the last 3 years that there will be time "left on the table" at the end of Q3. Even if Button or Perez sticks it on pole, i'll always have the nagging feeling that "Lewis wouldve gotten more out of it". McLaren will sorely miss that benchmark, because the days when Lewis didnt get the max (or more than Button did at least) out of the cars potential pace are few and very far between.


Qualifying pace is only important if it helps set you up for the race. If a McLaren driver is on pole, then it really doesn't matter if Lewis would have gone faster.

#2910 TurboF1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:39

Qualifying pace is only important if it helps set you up for the race. If a McLaren driver is on pole, then it really doesn't matter if Lewis would have gone faster.



What about the days when they qualify 3rd, 4th, or less, A la Button in Spain, Abu Dhabi, or Singapore, Valencia etc or all the other tracks where there was a pretty significant difference in qualy? How will we know if thats the best the car couldve done, if they don't have a driver that can extract the maximum out of it. I say again, If we only had Button as the lead driver this year, we wouldve NEVER known just how good a car the MP4-27 was, especially in qually during the second half of this year, because Lewis is the only one thats hauled it to the front row time and time again! We'd all have thought that the car had nothing more to give, when the truth wouldve been that it was Button-Limited, and not Car-limited. Unless Perez routinely outqualifies Jenson by a similar margin as Lewis has done, we will KNOW that the cars true ultimate pace (or at least closest to it) is not being exploited.

This is a sad truth, and as a pretty much lifelong McLaren fan, that pains me very much.

#2911 TurboF1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:41

Completely agree. I'll be ordering my McLaren WWLD (What Would Lewis Do) wristbands as soon as they are available.



:(

#2912 TurboF1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:50

If Mclaren comes with a dominant car and Jeson likes it,be prepared to see a 2009 again.

Jeson is all "balance" and no grip,but if for some reason he likes the car and the car is dominant he will do the job.

Don't be delusional about this.


There's no doubt that if McLaren produce a good enough car, the Jenson, on his best form, is a good enough driver to get the job done, the problem, though, lies in the statement. The car has to be PERFECT. Jenson has to be ON HIS BEST FORM, and also they'll "blindly" follow his setup recommendations again, and we've seen where that can lead McLaren before. He can take a perfectly dominant car down a setup dead end and make it, in Jensons own words, undrivable. All this against whats going to be a DAMNED good Red Bull RB9, a better Ferrari F2013 and also a better Lotus E21. Who knows what Mercedes comes up with next year. If the W05 is as good as this years Ferrari or Lotus has been compared to this years Red Bull or McLaren, then he'll be fighting Nico and Lewis as well. I doubt Jenson or McLaren will produce a car that's head and shoulders better than the aforementioned. I dont see him pulling it off next year, Not that it's impossible, but I have a hard time seeing that. As a long time McLaren fan, I wouldnt mind seeing it (even though i'll have split loyalites with Mercedes/Lewis next year)...

Just have to wait and see I guess, I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.

#2913 Boxerevo

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 23:11

There's no doubt that if McLaren produce a good enough car, the Jenson, on his best form, is a good enough driver to get the job done, the problem, though, lies in the statement. The car has to be PERFECT. Jenson has to be ON HIS BEST FORM, and also they'll "blindly" follow his setup recommendations again, and we've seen where that can lead McLaren before. He can take a perfectly dominant car down a setup dead end and make it, in Jensons own words, undrivable. All this against whats going to be a DAMNED good Red Bull RB9, a better Ferrari F2013 and also a better Lotus E21. Who knows what Mercedes comes up with next year. If the W05 is as good as this years Ferrari or Lotus has been compared to this years Red Bull or McLaren, then he'll be fighting Nico and Lewis as well. I doubt Jenson or McLaren will produce a car that's head and shoulders better than the aforementioned. I dont see him pulling it off next year, Not that it's impossible, but I have a hard time seeing that. As a long time McLaren fan, I wouldnt mind seeing it (even though i'll have split loyalites with Mercedes/Lewis next year)...

Just have to wait and see I guess, I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.

I only discovered that i wasn't a truly Mclaren fan this year,i like the team,but my worries are only with Lewis.

#2914 TurboF1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 23:43

I only discovered that i wasn't a truly Mclaren fan this year,i like the team,but my worries are only with Lewis.



Well I can understand why, I was a McLaren fan when I was a little boy, and I only knew them then as the "Marlboro" cars in red n white. Then started following more in the later nineties, then after 2002 I lost a lot of interest in F1 due to Schumacher, only mildly interested until Lewis brought me back full tilt. Now that he's leaving i'll have split loyalties, but I think i'm at the point where I'd rather see Lewis successful first, then if McLaren do well I'd take that second. If i'm forced to choose, I go with Lewis. Something about ratboy Button just doesnt do it for me. Mainly because I know he's not consistently top tier. Sure, he has his days of brilliance, but he's not my cup of tea. Unless Perez shows up and puts the manners on Jenson, I doubt he'll do it for me. This will be the first McLaren line up in a very long time where I don't particularly care for the drivers/

Edited by TurboF1, 23 November 2012 - 23:46.


#2915 fenixracing

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 00:04

same here
lewis is first drive that can put me on the edge. So im gonna follow him to mercedes always liked mercedes specially there lm cars.
For me the canadian gp 2012 says it all. And perez needs to peform, he is not a rooki. lewis got straight on the podium in his first race.
if the mp4 28 is any like that i expect nothing less from perez.

#2916 Coops3

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 00:15

The sad truth about the MP4-28 will be that no matter how well the two drivers do in it, you'll have pretty strong evidence based on the last 3 years that there will be time "left on the table" at the end of Q3. Even if Button or Perez sticks it on pole, i'll always have the nagging feeling that "Lewis wouldve gotten more out of it". McLaren will sorely miss that benchmark, because the days when Lewis didnt get the max (or more than Button did at least) out of the cars potential pace are few and very far between.


I hesitate to say it, but... this ^^.

I suppose you've got to look at the bigger picture though - the points scored between the two over the last three years have been almost the same, and points are the only thing that matters at the end of the day. That said, the driver who can qualify higher will always be the driver with the more potential IMO. I can't help but feel that Lewis just hasn't had a decent run of "luck" at McLaren since 2008.

#2917 TurboF1

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 00:28

I hesitate to say it, but... this ^^.

I suppose you've got to look at the bigger picture though - the points scored between the two over the last three years have been almost the same, and points are the only thing that matters at the end of the day. That said, the driver who can qualify higher will always be the driver with the more potential IMO. I can't help but feel that Lewis just hasn't had a decent run of "luck" at McLaren since 2008.



Sure, you can't ignore the points benchmark, thats huge, but as far as which driver lost more points through no fault of their own, the answer in unquestionably Lewis, and by a VERY big margin. For me, its not only the points accumulated that matters, but how they were achieved in the first place. I'd take Lewis' approach, speed, setup ability and overall potential any day over Jenson. I don't think you can name ONE team principal in the paddock that, if they had a choice between Jenson and Lewis only, with all esle being equal, who they'd pick, and in a heartbeat too.

#2918 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 00:43

I don't see how it's relevant guessing what Lewis would have done with the 2013 mclaren. He won't be driving it, he chose not to.

Besides, Lewis has a much better qualifying record than Jenson, yet has scored only the same number of points over 3 years. I wish the people continually saying that qualifying is so important would remember this.

#2919 P123

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 00:49

I don't see how it's relevant guessing what Lewis would have done with the 2013 mclaren. He won't be driving it, he chose not to.

Besides, Lewis has a much better qualifying record than Jenson, yet has scored only the same number of points over 3 years. I wish the people continually saying that qualifying is so important would remember this.


Which is why McLaren will be just fine with JB.

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#2920 speng

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:11

Sure, you can't ignore the points benchmark, thats huge, but as far as which driver lost more points through no fault of their own, the answer in unquestionably Lewis, and by a VERY big margin. For me, its not only the points accumulated that matters, but how they were achieved in the first place. I'd take Lewis' approach, speed, setup ability and overall potential any day over Jenson. I don't think you can name ONE team principal in the paddock that, if they had a choice between Jenson and Lewis only, with all esle being equal, who they'd pick, and in a heartbeat too.

Totally agree.

#2921 Coops3

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:21

I don't see how it's relevant guessing what Lewis would have done with the 2013 mclaren. He won't be driving it, he chose not to.


Personally, as a McLaren supporter, I think it's very relevant. Sure, it will always be a guess; but I would suggest a good one, and certainly a relevant one.


#2922 inca_roads

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:24

I don't see how it's relevant guessing what Lewis would have done with the 2013 mclaren. He won't be driving it, he chose not to.

Besides, Lewis has a much better qualifying record than Jenson, yet has scored only the same number of points over 3 years. I wish the people continually saying that qualifying is so important would remember this.


The implication being Button is as good (he'd actually have to be better, considering he usually qualifies behind) as Hamilton in races, where it counts.

Which is completely inaccurate. A look at a race like Abu Dhabi, for example, gives a little insight in to a major contributory factor as to why he has similar points. Hamilton out qualified him there, but did Button haul him back by showing superior race performance? No, he fell behind in the race also, and then Hamilton's car broke. Same as Singapore. There are plenty more similarly themed examples, as some folks on here have gone to great lengths to list.

Edited by inca_roads, 24 November 2012 - 01:25.


#2923 TurboF1

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:39

The implication being Button is as good (he'd actually have to be better, considering he usually qualifies behind) as Hamilton in races, where it counts.

Which is completely inaccurate. A look at a race like Abu Dhabi, for example, gives a little insight in to a major contributory factor as to why he has similar points. Hamilton out qualified him there, but did Button haul him back by showing superior race performance? No, he fell behind in the race also, and then Hamilton's car broke. Same as Singapore. There are plenty more similarly themed examples, as some folks on here have gone to great lengths to list.


Thats been proven time and again. Button has been lucky to be as close as he has been in points. The amount of times something has happened to Lewis when Lewis has way up the road only to DNF while Button scores, versus the times when its the opposite is downright shameful. I can't name 3 races over 3 years where Lewis benefitted from Jenson having an issue while he was ahead of Lewis, but I could do it easily based on this year alone.

China qualy, Gearbox penalty. Qualified half a second and 4 positions ahead of Jenson .Finished just behind Jenson. Sure he had a problem in the pits, but Lewis wouldve been ahead of him without the penalty anyway.

Catalunya qualy, Underfueled. Still beat Jenson with pure pace AND tire conservation with no safety car help etc.

Singapore. DNF from the lead and a certain 1st/2nd place.

Hell lets not forget Abu Dhabi...

Great job Jenson.

:wave:

Edited by TurboF1, 24 November 2012 - 01:44.


#2924 Lazy

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 06:48

The car has to be PERFECT.


You guys constantly repeat this nonsense in the hope making it fact.

Jenson comfortably won the WDC with a car which, over the season was, at best, the equal of the RB5.

He also comfortably beat everyone last year except Vettel who had a true rocketship that stayed a rocketship, including Hamilton in the same car, Alonso and Webber in that same rocketship.

#2925 moorsey

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:07

I don't see how it's relevant guessing what Lewis would have done with the 2013 mclaren. He won't be driving it, he chose not to.

Besides, Lewis has a much better qualifying record than Jenson, yet has scored only the same number of points over 3 years. I wish the people continually saying that qualifying is so important would remember this.


I'm amazed that you posted that. You only need to check the results to see just how many races have been won from the front row as compared to lesser qualy positions. Of course qualifying is EXTREMELY important.

#2926 moorsey

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:11

Well I can understand why, I was a McLaren fan when I was a little boy, and I only knew them then as the "Marlboro" cars in red n white. Then started following more in the later nineties, then after 2002 I lost a lot of interest in F1 due to Schumacher, only mildly interested until Lewis brought me back full tilt. Now that he's leaving i'll have split loyalties, but I think i'm at the point where I'd rather see Lewis successful first, then if McLaren do well I'd take that second. If i'm forced to choose, I go with Lewis. Something about ratboy Button just doesnt do it for me. Mainly because I know he's not consistently top tier. Sure, he has his days of brilliance, but he's not my cup of tea. Unless Perez shows up and puts the manners on Jenson, I doubt he'll do it for me. This will be the first McLaren line up in a very long time where I don't particularly care for the drivers/


That post gives my thoughts exactly. I will be taking my support to Merc with Lewis and won't be rooting for McLaren for the first time in as many years as I can remember.

#2927 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:16

The implication being Button is as good (he'd actually have to be better, considering he usually qualifies behind) as Hamilton in races, where it counts.

Which is completely inaccurate. A look at a race like Abu Dhabi, for example, gives a little insight in to a major contributory factor as to why he has similar points. Hamilton out qualified him there, but did Button haul him back by showing superior race performance? No, he fell behind in the race also, and then Hamilton's car broke. Same as Singapore. There are plenty more similarly themed examples, as some folks on here have gone to great lengths to list.


Over 3 years their reliability/ strategy record is pretty even. 2012 it was worse for Lewis, 2011 it was much worse for JB.

#2928 skidmarks

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:19

You guys constantly repeat this nonsense in the hope making it fact.


Look at it this way; Jenson has a very definite driving style that he can't move away from. After all, did not Prost, the former driver who's opinion that you laud, indicate as much when comparing like driving style and the problems that it can cause with warming up tires?


Jenson comfortably won the WDC with a car which, over the season was, at best, the equal of the RB5.


Ahh, the whole "over the season" thing. This makes it easy for one to disregard the start of the season, where the car was superior, and the later stages of the season where Button barely managed to finish in the points.

Vettel's RBR had HALF of the race wins that year when compared to Button's BGP.

And given that there were only 11 points separating the two at the end, you could hardly call that comfortable.

I can't help but feel that you're trying be a bit of a revisionist about the 2009 season. The car itself was dominant for a third of that season. If it hadn't been for that, Button would not have been anywhere near the title race come Brazil.



#2929 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:20

Personally, as a McLaren supporter, I think it's very relevant. Sure, it will always be a guess; but I would suggest a good one, and certainly a relevant one.


That's the problem.
You are automatically going to assume yours is a good guess.
However, the performance gap closes considerably the better the car suits JB. What's to say with focus on him they build a car that really suits him? Or that the new spec pirellis really work for him?



#2930 Juggles

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:29

Over 3 years their reliability/ strategy record is pretty even. 2012 it was worse for Lewis, 2011 it was much worse for JB.


You can't be serious? Your second sentence implies Button lost more points through reliability/race operations in 2011 compared to Hamilton than Hamilton has in 2012 compared to Button. Can you give some examples of Button losing big points through no fault of his own in 2011? It'll need to be quite a comprehensive list just to negate Spain, Singapore and Abu Dhabi this year, let alone the smaller hiccups in McLaren's 2012 Flying Circus.

#2931 PretentiousBread

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:32

Over 3 years their reliability/ strategy record is pretty even. 2012 it was worse for Lewis, 2011 it was much worse for JB.


Like you're ever going to back that up.

Btw, Lights, a long standing, level headed JB fan was of the opinion that Hamilton had more bad luck than JB in 2011. How does that tally with your assertion that JB's was 'much worse'? He must just be biased as well.


#2932 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:35

You guys constantly repeat this nonsense in the hope making it fact.

Jenson comfortably won the WDC with a car which, over the season was, at best, the equal of the RB5.

He also comfortably beat everyone last year except Vettel who had a true rocketship that stayed a rocketship, including Hamilton in the same car, Alonso and Webber in that same rocketship.


Indeed. The inconvenient truth.

#2933 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:38

I'm amazed that you posted that. You only need to check the results to see just how many races have been won from the front row as compared to lesser qualy positions. Of course qualifying is EXTREMELY important.


Your not following.
JB and LH have the same number of total points despite a very different qualifying records. Over the full 3 years reliability and strategy is no excuse. Fact is JB converts more points from his qualifying position than Lewis. That is a fact so if you dispute it it can only mean you don't want to believe it.

The stats for all drivers based on front row starts is completely irrelevant.

#2934 Lazy

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:40

Ahh, the whole "over the season" thing. This makes it easy for one to disregard the start of the season, where the car was superior, and the later stages of the season where Button barely managed to finish in the points.


Surely it's over the whole season that counts?

I don't think it's me that's being revisionist about 2009, it's those who try and say that the car was dominant in 2009, when it wasn't. It may have been dominant for 1/3 but it was equal over the season.

#2935 Lazy

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:42

Like you're ever going to back that up.

Btw, Lights, a long standing, level headed JB fan was of the opinion that Hamilton had more bad luck than JB in 2011. How does that tally with your assertion that JB's was 'much worse'? He must just be biased as well.


Indeed, but you yourself have stated that JB was more unlucky that season.

#2936 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:47

You can't be serious? Your second sentence implies Button lost more points through reliability/race operations in 2011 compared to Hamilton than Hamilton has in 2012 compared to Button. Can you give some examples of Button losing big points through no fault of his own in 2011? It'll need to be quite a comprehensive list just to negate Spain, Singapore and Abu Dhabi this year, let alone the smaller hiccups in McLaren's 2012 Flying Circus.


Says it all if you can't remember them.

Australia, turkey, Monaco, Europe, silverstone, Germany, spa.


#2937 Rocket73

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:49

Look at it this way; Jenson has a very definite driving style that he can't move away from. After all, did not Prost, the former driver who's opinion that you laud, indicate as much when comparing like driving style and the problems that it can cause with warming up tires?




Ahh, the whole "over the season" thing. This makes it easy for one to disregard the start of the season, where the car was superior, and the later stages of the season where Button barely managed to finish in the points.

Vettel's RBR had HALF of the race wins that year when compared to Button's BGP.

And given that there were only 11 points separating the two at the end, you could hardly call that comfortable.

I can't help but feel that you're trying be a bit of a revisionist about the 2009 season. The car itself was dominant for a third of that season. If it hadn't been for that, Button would not have been anywhere near the title race come Brazil.


When the car was superior for the first few races JB scored virtually maximium points...but the car was ultimately impossible to develop due to the extremely strange pre season it had. they had to shoe horn in the merc engine that it wasnt designed for. but jb stuck in there and brought the wdc home and most of wcc as well...the sign of a true champ.

bolded - show me a driver who has one the championship in car that wasn't 'dominant' for any of the season... :rolleyes:



haha after writing this i suppose you could say alonso this year but this is considered extraordinary

Edited by Rocket73, 24 November 2012 - 08:51.


#2938 moorsey

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:49

Your not following.
JB and LH have the same number of total points despite a very different qualifying records. Over the full 3 years reliability and strategy is no excuse. Fact is JB converts more points from his qualifying position than Lewis. That is a fact so if you dispute it it can only mean you don't want to believe it.

The stats for all drivers based on front row starts is completely irrelevant.


How can the "stats for all drivers based on front row starts" be irrlevant when we were discussing whether qualifying was important?
I have a feeling that it is you who don't want to believe/accept that Lewis has lost many more points than Jenson through no fault of his own and that some [perhaps most] of those points were when he was well ahead of Jenson, having qualified in front of him.

The fact remains that, in these days of difficult overtaking, qualifying is extremely important to give better chances in the races. If it's not important then why bother with it? We might as well just draw straws.

#2939 Juggles

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:50

Surely it's over the whole season that counts?

I don't think it's me that's being revisionist about 2009, it's those who try and say that the car was dominant in 2009, when it wasn't. It may have been dominant for 1/3 but it was equal over the season.


Perhaps the difference is that when the Brawn was at the front it was peerless (Button could not have won 6 from 7 if it was not) whereas Red Bull's period of being the best car coincided with a resurgence from McLaren and, to some extent, Ferrari? Dominance is relative. At no point that season was the Red Bull dominant to the same extent as the Brawn was at the start.

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#2940 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:50

Like you're ever going to back that up.

Btw, Lights, a long standing, level headed JB fan was of the opinion that Hamilton had more bad luck than JB in 2011. How does that tally with your assertion that JB's was 'much worse'? He must just be biased as well.


It seems to me your entire argument is based on the fact that 2012 is fresher in the memory and you play on that, hoping people will conveniently remember Lewis good season and forget Jensons. It's quite pathetic really.

#2941 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:54

How can the "stats for all drivers based on front row starts" be irrlevant when we were discussing whether qualifying was important?
I have a feeling that it is you who don't want to believe/accept that Lewis has lost many more points than Jenson through no fault of his own and that some [perhaps most] of those points were when he was well ahead of Jenson, having qualified in front of him.

The fact remains that, in these days of difficult overtaking, qualifying is extremely important to give better chances in the races. If it's not important then why bother with it? We might as well just draw straws.


Your not following. We aren't talking a out all drivers, were only talking about Jb v Lewis, so you can't use the average stats to credit Lewis with something he is below statistically, or negate Jb for something he is above statistically.



#2942 PretentiousBread

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:54

Indeed, but you yourself have stated that JB was more unlucky that season.


Yeah I did, but on balance it was marginal. In terms of unreliability JB suffered a bigger potential points loss, but it was on a minuscule scale compared to 2012, or even 2010. My point was that it is farcical for him to say JB's luck was 'much worse' than Hamilton, seemingly implying it was even worse than Hamilton's this year as well. If it was like Rhinehart made out, then it'd not be up for debate and we wouldn't have other JB fans contradicting his view.

#2943 Lazy

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:56

Yeah I did, but on balance it was marginal. In terms of unreliability JB suffered a bigger potential points loss, but it was on a minuscule scale compared to 2012, or even 2010. My point was that it is farcical for him to say JB's luck was 'much worse' than Hamilton, seemingly implying it was even worse than Hamilton's this year as well. If it was like Rhinehart made out, then it'd not be up for debate and we wouldn't have other JB fans contradicting his view.


It has to be said that Lights is a very hard taskmaster for his chosen driver :)

#2944 undersquare

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:57

How was JB unlucky last year? Anyone got a list?

My remaining impression is he was lucky more than otherwise, like Canada.

#2945 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:00

Yeah I did, but on balance it was marginal. In terms of unreliability JB suffered a bigger potential points loss, but it was on a minuscule scale compared to 2012, or even 2010. My point was that it is farcical for him to say JB's luck was 'much worse' than Hamilton, seemingly implying it was even worse than Hamilton's this year as well. If it was like Rhinehart made out, then it'd not be up for debate and we wouldn't have other JB fans contradicting his view.


Button beat Hamilton by a fair number of points so he doesn't need to accrue as many back for 2012 v 2011 to even out. The reason you find this astonishing, and claim ONE job fan agrees to prove it (brilliant) is that you don't follow button as diligently as your own driver. Or cast as reasonable judgement....

#2946 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:03

How was JB unlucky last year? Anyone got a list?

My remaining impression is he was lucky more than otherwise, like Canada.


Well that just says it all.
If it was the other way around there would be no luck at all.
Last season Is so conveniently a distant memory for Lewis fans.


#2947 garoidb

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:05

What about the days when they qualify 3rd, 4th, or less, A la Button in Spain, Abu Dhabi, or Singapore, Valencia etc or all the other tracks where there was a pretty significant difference in qualy? How will we know if thats the best the car couldve done, if they don't have a driver that can extract the maximum out of it. I say again, If we only had Button as the lead driver this year, we wouldve NEVER known just how good a car the MP4-27 was, especially in qually during the second half of this year, because Lewis is the only one thats hauled it to the front row time and time again!


By that argument, how do we know the 2011 McLaren wasn't a WDC capable car? If the 2011 season were repeated in 2013, I would expect to see the usual suspects fantasising about all the things Lewis could have done in that car.

#2948 oligc94

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:15

By that argument, how do we know the 2011 McLaren wasn't a WDC capable car? If the 2011 season were repeated in 2013, I would expect to see the usual suspects fantasising about all the things Lewis could have done in that car.


Because Lewis didn't really lose his pace last year, even if some of his races went tits up. The RB7 was too far ahead for anybody to claim that the MP4-26 should have had a good chance of winning the championship...


#2949 undersquare

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:16

Well that just says it all.
If it was the other way around there would be no luck at all.
Last season Is so conveniently a distant memory for Lewis fans.

I have to point out that isn't answering the question...

It was a terrible year for Lewis, but still he was faster than JB in all but three races. JB often benefitted from Lewis' problems, running behind at the time then moving up. Often had better a job from his RE, like in Hungary. In Canada was a lot slower but put Lewis out then won. Passed Lewis in Suzuka thanks to Lewis' gearbox. So just balance me up with JB's bad luck, please :)

#2950 Lazy

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:21

How was JB unlucky last year? Anyone got a list?

My remaining impression is he was lucky more than otherwise, like Canada.


By your reasoning Lewis has had bad luck every season he has been in F1, Japan in 2007, Spa in 2008, crap car in 2009 etc etc. Whilst Jenson has had the luck of the gods, he must have Fry's 7 leaf clover :rolleyes: . It just doesn't add up.

And whilst McLaren are apparently totally incompetent, they are at the same time perfect for JB. Remarkable.