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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#3051 study

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:36

F1 - Button sees Hamilton departure as great title chance




correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't it button that said he won't be NO.2 driver in a team?? now it seems he's counting on Perez being No.2 driver to mount a championship challenge ... oh the irony :p



its going to be interesting next year if mclaren adopt a no1/no2. If they do it'll really show whitmarsh in this true colours.

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#3052 Peter Perfect

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:37

that i agree ... (unless you are Felipe baby), but the way JB is banging his drums about being team leader, setting the car up around him, guiding the team blah blah blah is getting a bit irritating TBH. let's see if perez can rattle him a bit :smoking:

P.S before anyone starts moaning, no i'm not a JB hater (neutral kimi Fanboy :cat: )

As a fan of both as long as they both drive well I'll be happy :) I get the impression Button is trying to reinforce his position in the team before Perez arrives which is completely understandable. He wants the best for himself.

#3053 eronrules

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:39

its going to be interesting next year if mclaren adopt a no1/no2. If they do it'll really show whitmarsh in this true colours.



TBH, seeing recent relationship between Whitmarsh and LH, i think it's more like Ron Dennis's true color rather than MW's. i think whitmarsh is honestly mourning the loss of LH and vice-versa (who'd have thought :smoking: )

#3054 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:42

That argument works both ways, when lewis fans were complaining about him having to drive to a delta it was pointed out that tyre deg is all part of the game.

Well, the tyre argument is a weird one alltogether. Last year there were several really vocal Lewis fans basically declaring the result of the season void and Formula One overall a charade because the tyres seemed to be suit Jenson apparently a bit more than Lewis. By suiting more I mean that they performed overall equally over the stint but sometimes Jenson was able to stretch the stint about two laps longer. Apparently because Lewis tended to make a gap of 7 seconds early in a stint that Jenson would subsequently close late in the stint meant that Lewis was 7 secons quicker but tyres were shit.

Now this year when the problem is not making the tyres last but to get them to a particular temperature window - which appears to be ludicrously small - and get both front and bottom tyres there appears to need a certain way of driving the car, which happens to suit Lewis but doesn't Jenson, those same guys are never to be seen in calling this years result as void. No, they are close to maintaining that the performance gulf in the worst parts of this season for JB is the only time we have ever seen the true gap between those two drivers.

#3055 study

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:42

:eek: I wasn't aware that was the case. I thought he'd just done it once this year to get back on track. Which other races has he had to completely abandon his own settings and go with Hamiltons side of the garage?


He took Lewis settings for this race

#3056 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:42

100-7?

Says it all really.

...that Lewis is thirteen times a better driver than Jenson, right? :)

#3057 Peter Perfect

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:44

TBH, seeing recent relationship between Whitmarsh and LH, i think it's more like Ron Dennis's true color rather than MW's. i think whitmarsh is honestly mourning the loss of LH and vice-versa (who'd have thought :smoking: )

Indeed, after 3 years of unremitting demonisation of Whitmarsh it looks like maybe a few posters have been targeting the wrong guy.

#3058 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:44

Jenson lost his voice in a F1 era that suits everything about his driving style.

...really? How does it suit him that the temperature window is really really small in those tyres and to get them to the window doesn't suit the way he is driving at all?

#3059 Lazy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:48

That argument works both ways, when lewis fans were complaining about him having to drive to a delta it was pointed out that tyre deg is all part of the game.

The pace differential is interesting, I would say on average it's about 2/10ths in quali, if JB is unhappy then it gets larger, if he's on form/happy with the car it gets very close and if lewis is unhappy when jenson is happy he beats him (erm happiness referring to being happy with the car, nowt to do with bubbles!). This is leaving aside issues affecting quali and just looking at pure pace.

Race pace is difficult, I'd be really interested to see whether there is much difference when jenson is happy with the car and race circumstances are the same, obviously they rarely are.


Absolutely Rob, but no one ever questioned Lewis' pace, even last year.

Jenson had the advantage in tyre management last year and Lewis has this year, fair play. The effects have been that little bit more profound for Jenson this year :)

Totally agree with your assessment of pace differential.

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#3060 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:48

He took Lewis settings for this race

Now did he? Or are you basing it on a notion that they were trying a low downforce setup in FP2 just to see how it works and to get data for winter and then reverted back to the base setup for third practice? Yeah, sure, went back to LH-s settings is what it is called. Indeed. You really called that one right.

#3061 Peter Perfect

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:49

He took Lewis settings for this race

Did he? :confused: My impression was that he'd reverted to his set-up from FP1 (i.e. high downforce) and then tweaked it with information from Hamiltons FP2 running (as Button was then trying out a low-downforce set-up). Did he actually dump his own set-up and copy Hamiltons verbatim? If so I'd be disappointed that Buttons had taken another backwards step set-up-wise but seriously impressed that he could take a set-up unsuited to his driving style and still basically match Hamiltons pole time.

#3062 jjcale

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:49

Indeed, after 3 years of unremitting demonisation of Whitmarsh it looks like maybe a few posters have been targeting the wrong guy.


Nope... it was MW's interpretation of Macca's "equality policy" and his determination to reduce LH's porfile after 2009 so that the team would be less dependent on him from a marketing point of view that has led ultimately to LH's departure... Ron is only reacting (badly) to LH's own reaction to MW's initial moves.

Ignore the staged PR hugs....

#3063 P123

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:51

its going to be interesting next year if mclaren adopt a no1/no2. If they do it'll really show whitmarsh in this true colours.


It will show that Perez isn't a match for Button.

Edited by P123, 25 November 2012 - 12:51.


#3064 Lazy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:52

He took Lewis settings for this race


Actually, he tried the Spa wing for 1 session and it didn't work out, so he went back.

#3065 jjcale

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:52

It will show that Perez isn't a match for Button.


How will we know that if he is not given equality at the start?

#3066 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:54

How will we know that if he is not given equality at the start?

How will we know that he won't be?

#3067 P123

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:55

How will we know that if he is not given equality at the start?


Why wouldn't he be given that?

Even with equality, which I am sure he will have, I doubt he will be a match for JB over the season.

#3068 Lazy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:55

Anyway, good luck to all you Lala's ;) in their last race.

May the best man win :)

#3069 Peter Perfect

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:56

How will we know that he won't be?

Ah, some posters will know  ;)

#3070 eronrules

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:57

How will we know that he won't be?



let's hold our horses fellas ... perez's rise and move to Mclaren is almost similar to that of Kimi Rakkonen :love: , now will he become the next Speedy Gonzales??? we'll need to see. but it'll be hard for him to fill the shoes of LH, he'll be constantly compared to him, and who knows, maybe he'll crack under pressure like Romain Grosjean at LotusF1

#3071 jjcale

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:06

Why wouldn't he be given that?

Even with equality, which I am sure he will have, I doubt he will be a match for JB over the season.


We dont know yet how it will turn out between SP and JB ... We dont know yet if he will be given "equality" or what that will mean next year or how long that "equality" will last or what would lead to a driver being made de facto No 1 ... we have to wait and see before we can make judgments - either on SP or how Whitmarsh handles the situation presented to him.... I am not making any assumptions about any of these points - including how SP will perform. LH fans were suprised by how close JB has been to him, at times, and JB fans may experience the same with SP... or they may even end up with the feeling that FA fans had in 2007.



#3072 robefc

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:07

Why wouldn't he be given that?

Even with equality, which I am sure he will have, I doubt he will be a match for JB over the season.


Well I guess the comparison is whether Kovi was given equality at the start.

Similar situation, incumbent WDC, young driver coming in.

#3073 robefc

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:15

Well, the tyre argument is a weird one alltogether. Last year there were several really vocal Lewis fans basically declaring the result of the season void and Formula One overall a charade because the tyres seemed to be suit Jenson apparently a bit more than Lewis. By suiting more I mean that they performed overall equally over the stint but sometimes Jenson was able to stretch the stint about two laps longer. Apparently because Lewis tended to make a gap of 7 seconds early in a stint that Jenson would subsequently close late in the stint meant that Lewis was 7 secons quicker but tyres were shit.

Now this year when the problem is not making the tyres last but to get them to a particular temperature window - which appears to be ludicrously small - and get both front and bottom tyres there appears to need a certain way of driving the car, which happens to suit Lewis but doesn't Jenson, those same guys are never to be seen in calling this years result as void. No, they are close to maintaining that the performance gulf in the worst parts of this season for JB is the only time we have ever seen the true gap between those two drivers.


Yeah, I can see how that sort of reasoning could be annoying for a JB fan :D
Although I think the 7 seconds thing is not necessarily representative and perhaps based on Hungary.

Absolutely Rob, but no one ever questioned Lewis' pace, even last year.

Jenson had the advantage in tyre management last year and Lewis has this year, fair play. The effects have been that little bit more profound for Jenson this year :)

Totally agree with your assessment of pace differential.


Without wanting to create disagreement where we have relevant harmony (:) ) and I don't even know if Jenson had an advantage over the course of the season, or one large enough to overcome quali difference anyway. Even Hungary we didn't get to see how it would play out, albeit lewis's use of the tyres probably led to macca making the wrong tyre choice as a couple more laps they would have probably made a different decision.

He definitely had the advantage in some races but then so did lewis in several races, lewis and mclaren's mutual clusterfucking makes it difficult to compare the effect of race pace/tyre usage (as opposed to driving performances where lewis's part of the clusterfucking, which was the majority, obviously is pertinent).

On the other hand I guess you could argue that the tyres this year were more of a lottery than last.

Regarding quali/race pace, it would be fun to somehow reverse their qualifying positions and see where they end up.

#3074 Lazy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:15

Best result for me:

JB 1st, Lewis 2nd , McLaren take 2nd in WCC.

Fred nudges off Fingerboy in dubious circumstances to take 3rd and a highly controversial WDC :D

 ;)

#3075 robefc

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:17

Anyway, good luck to all you Lala's ;) in their last race.

May the best man win :)


:up:

At least we can all sit back, enjoy the race and know the real tension is elsewhere :D

#3076 Lazy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:23

:up:

At least we can all sit back, enjoy the race and know the real tension is elsewhere :D


:up:

I've got to drive for an hour and a half to watch the race now, see you in the aftermath :)

#3077 jrg19

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:26

...really? How does it suit him that the temperature window is really really small in those tyres and to get them to the window doesn't suit the way he is driving at all?


I understand the tyre window is small, i was referring to driving to delta. :up:

#3078 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:32

Best result for me:

JB 1st, Lewis 2nd , McLaren take 2nd in WCC.

Fred nudges off Fingerboy in dubious circumstances to take 3rd and a highly controversial WDC :D

;)

I can subscribe to every line of that post :)

#3079 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:32

I am hoping that it rains before the race which is then conducted on a drying track ;)

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#3080 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:33

I understand the tyre window is small, i was referring to driving to delta. :up:

Driving to delta doesn't mean much when you can't get the tyres to the window where you CAN drive to the delta.

#3081 jrg19

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:34

Driving to delta doesn't mean much when you can't get the tyres to the window where you CAN drive to the delta.


What does that say about Jenson...

#3082 Fox1

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:40

What does that say about Jenson...

That he is unlucky...and McLaren provided him with the worst car since he joined the team.

#3083 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:41

What does that say about Jenson...

That this year's tyres don't suit his driving style?

Or did you manage to conjure some deeper insights into the man that is JB out of it? Perhaps he is not a friend of all animals? Perhaps he doesn't respect his mother?

#3084 jrg19

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:42

That this year's tyres don't suit his driving style?

Or did you manage to conjure some deeper insights into the man that is JB out of it? Perhaps he is not a friend of all animals? Perhaps he doesn't respect his mother?


Or that his inability to adapt means he isn't on the same level as Lewis... which some of his fans believe he is.

#3085 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:46

Or that his inability to adapt means he isn't on the same level as Lewis... which some of his fans believe he is.

Funny, I was just having the same conversation with Rob the last page. Look it up. Last year when Jenson was doing better than Lewis re tyres there were people that were saying that Formula One is worthless shenigans because of the tyres and the results of a season should be declared void. Funny that. Almost as funny as measuring the "level" of a driver by the year in which the circumstances are most adverse towards him comparing to his teammate. The word you are looking for is "hypocrisy".

#3086 speng

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:49

I am hoping that it rains before the race which is then conducted on a drying track ;)

Anything to favour Button winning :lol:

#3087 jrg19

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:49

Im not avoiding last season?? Jenson did the better job.

What about 2010 when tyres last most the race... Or is that when Jenson didn't fit in the car?

Name something Jenson has beaten Lewis in... Not winning the podiums like Heidfeld.

#3088 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:51

Funny, I was just having the same conversation with Rob the last page. Look it up. Last year when Jenson was doing better than Lewis re tyres there were people that were saying that Formula One is worthless shenigans because of the tyres and the results of a season should be declared void. Funny that. Almost as funny as measuring the "level" of a driver by the year in which the circumstances are most adverse towards him comparing to his teammate. The word you are looking for is "hypocrisy".


:up: beat me to it..

#3089 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:52

Anything to favour Button winning :lol:


that makes sense doesnt it?

#3090 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:53

Name something Jenson has beaten Lewis in... Not winning the podiums like Heidfeld.

How about beating the most drivers over a season for that season, including every single driver of the season except the one that won the championship?

Let me remind you, it is YOU that are hell bent on trying to prove the utter betterness of TDG of the measly little mortal called Jenson Button in every way here. Again. Let me remind you, it is not JB fans that have to dig this one up, its YOU, over and over and over again.

#3091 paipa

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:56

I can't believe this thread will essentially be over in a few days. It was like a train wreck, you have to look but you wish it didn't happen.

#3092 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:58

I can't believe this thread will essentially be over in a few days. It was like a train wreck, you have to look but you wish it didn't happen.


:lol: will go on a lot longer than that...i like your analogy :)

#3093 Watkins74

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:58

I can't believe this thread will essentially be over in a few days. It was like a train wreck, you have to look but you wish it didn't happen.

:up: Looks like some people are getting their last punches in before the bell. :lol:

#3094 jrg19

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:59

How about beating the most drivers over a season for that season, including every single driver of the season except the one that won the championship?

Let me remind you, it is YOU that are hell bent on trying to prove the utter betterness of TDG of the measly little mortal called Jenson Button in every way here. Again. Let me remind you, it is not JB fans that have to dig this one up, its YOU, over and over and over again.


Yeah thats a great achievement.

Your caps button got stuck btw.

#3095 Peter Perfect

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 14:22

How about beating the most drivers over a season for that season, including every single driver of the season except the one that won the championship?

Let me remind you, it is YOU that are hell bent on trying to prove the utter betterness of TDG of the measly little mortal called Jenson Button in every way here. Again. Let me remind you, it is not JB fans that have to dig this one up, its YOU, over and over and over again.

:up: Bizarre but true.

#3096 kpchelsea

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 14:50

F1 - Button sees Hamilton departure as great title chance




correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't it button that said he won't be NO.2 driver in a team?? now it seems he's counting on Perez being No.2 driver to mount a championship challenge ... oh the irony :p

Yes it sounds like he's wriiten Perez off already

#3097 kpchelsea

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 14:57

That's one way of looking at it.

Another is that Lewis has never got close to acheiving the 2nd position, the 270 points and the 12 podiums in one season that Jenson did last year.


The difference between them this year was not pace but tyres. Credit to Hamilton for that but it's not a reflection of the pace difference between them.

I guess it must have been tyres in 2010 as well then?

#3098 Moore

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 14:59

I hope they get a 1-2 in the race as well, Its what I was hoping for and they did it in quali so they better get it in the race as well. Mclaren better be on form this afternoon with everything.

Not bothered which way they both finish in the 1-2, LH being first would probably be better for a send off present though.

#3099 swerved

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 15:19

That was a funny episode of Tooned, Jenson with Lewis's chin strap, and Ron made an appearance of sorts.

Hola :)

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#3100 Dalton007

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 15:23

That was a funny episode of Tooned, Jenson with Lewis's chin strap, and Ron made an appearance of sorts.

Hola :)


The ending was hilarious. :lol: