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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#3201 monolulu

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:51

/thread for me.

I know what I've witnessed over the last three years and am more than comfortable with my own conclusions.

Good luck to Jenson next year.

Anybody wanna buy a rocket-red t-shirt? Medium, only worn 21 times.

I'm outta here......

Keep the t-shirt it may come back into fashion a few years down the line;)

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#3202 SerratedEdge

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:52

TBH, seeing recent relationship between Whitmarsh and LH, i think it's more like Ron Dennis's true color rather than MW's. i think whitmarsh is honestly mourning the loss of LH and vice-versa (who'd have thought :smoking: )



I have said it before, and will say it again.....even though Whitmarsh is team boss Ron is still calling the shots regarding the big decisions.

It was clear in the interviews with Ron Dennis and Anthony Hamilton both shown on Sky after the US GP that any 'needle' or bad feeling was between Hamilton and RD which led to Hamilton deciding to jump ship.

#3203 Dalton007

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:59

What did he say?


He said that it was sad to see Lewis going to another team and he enjoyed battling with him.

#3204 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:59

no i am just enjoying the fact that over 3 years jb scored more points than the TDG...completely ridiculous i know...

#3205 robefc

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:00

Keep the t-shirt it may come back into fashion a few years down the line;)


I've got four of them! One never worn as someone refused to wear it to silverstone in favour of her multiple lewis t-shirts! :D

#3206 SerratedEdge

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:01

Button 672

Hamilton 657



And when Jenson joined McLaren some said JB would be crushed by Hamilton................

#3207 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:01

He said that it was sad to see Lewis going to another team and he enjoyed battling with him.


yup respect to JB...it is sad, it has been a good fight...

#3208 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:02

And when Jenson joined McLaren some said JB would be crushed by Hamilton................


some are still saying that

#3209 thesham01

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:04

some are still saying that


Who?

#3210 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:10

Who?


:rolleyes: seriously? really?

#3211 jrg19

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:15

The race today. Should make that clear.


:up: I'd agree Jensons victory today was well deserved.

#3212 tifosiMac

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:15

If some Button fans here want to enjoy victory between the two by comparing the points then fabulous and go for it.

I am happy as a Hamilton fan that he beat Jenson in two of the three seasons.

We all win. :D

#3213 10e10

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:17

some are still saying that


You kidding right? Jenson finished just 2 points behind Lewis, kudos to him, but Lewis completely outdrove Jenson this year, the standings can lie you know? If you want to go by the standings then it's 2-1 for Lewis, so it was a lost battle to Jenson anyway. You have to even look at today to see that he won just because of Hulk's stupidity, otherwise he wouldn't even finish 2nd.

#3214 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:23

If some Button fans here want to enjoy victory between the two by comparing the points then fabulous and go for it.

I am happy as a Hamilton fan that he beat Jenson in two of the three seasons.

We all win. :D


i think that if you read all of my posts then you would see that we dont actually disagree...lewis is an exceptional driver...really awesome

#3215 ayali

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:26

no i am just enjoying the fact that over 3 years jb scored more points than the TDG...completely ridiculous i know...

LOL who would have thunk that :lol:

Not denying Lewis had his gremlins this year but the overall score shows just there are more ways to skin a cat than just be fast (over 1 lap)


#3216 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:27

You kidding right? Jenson finished just 2 points behind Lewis, kudos to him, but Lewis completely outdrove Jenson this year, the standings can lie you know? If you want to go by the standings then it's 2-1 for Lewis, so it was a lost battle to Jenson anyway. You have to even look at today to see that he won just because of Hulk's stupidity, otherwise he wouldn't even finish 2nd.


hilarious...completely non sensical SC negated 44 seconds...yeah apart from that lewis completely destroyed jb today...


and he virtually brake tested jb into the first corner losing jb a place to massa, who admittedly was on fire today.

44 seconds!!! half a lap

Edited by Rocket73, 25 November 2012 - 21:33.


#3217 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:31

and even before that he was quicker than lewis

#3218 10e10

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:45

hilarious...completely non sensical SC negated 44 seconds...yeah apart from that lewis completely destroyed jb today...


and he virtually brake tested jb into the first corner losing jb a place to massa, who admittedly was on fire today.

44 seconds!!! half a lap


If you want to talk about the safety car ruining Jenson's race then you have to take in account all the points Jenson scored with Lewis' retirements. Or it's just bad luck when Jenson is the loser?

And I said Lewis destroyed Jenson this season not this race in particular.

#3219 Will

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:54

hilarious...completely non sensical SC negated 44 seconds...yeah apart from that lewis completely destroyed jb today...


and he virtually brake tested jb into the first corner losing jb a place to massa, who admittedly was on fire today.

44 seconds!!! half a lap


Interesting that you missed out the whole point of 2 pitstops contributing to a large proportion of that gap

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#3220 Rocket73

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:59

Interesting that you missed out the whole point of 2 pitstops contributing to a large proportion of that gap


but this is exactly the whole point!!! jb made the decision to not pit...genius and gave him a 40 second lead and he kept it on the straight and narrow. a skill so conveniently ignored by the lalas

lalas just want point for qualy and nothing else it seems...haha unlucky

#3221 StefanArak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:03

Hamilton lost out again in Brazil, typical of his season.
2010 Hamilton just edged it vs Button, 2011 Button comfortably beat a miserable Hamilton, 2012 Hamilton stamped his authority all over Button, particularly in qualifying. Button should be proud to have won in 2011, first teammate to ever beat Hamilton over a season, although he lost the other 2 :wave:.

#3222 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:09

Interesting that you missed out the whole point of 2 pitstops contributing to a large proportion of that gap

Interesting that you missed out the whole point that Lewis' pitstops were in fact voluntary.

#3223 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:11

Hamilton lost out again in Brazil, typical of his season.
2010 Hamilton just edged it vs Button, 2011 Button comfortably beat a miserable Hamilton, 2012 Hamilton stamped his authority all over Button, particularly in qualifying. Button should be proud to have won in 2011, first teammate to ever beat Hamilton over a season, although he lost the other 2 :wave:.

Fair enough. Hamilton is (or used to be) sometimes and according to some people ranked as an all time best. To beat an all time best over a season is not what most here predicted at the end of 09 and it's not a bad achievement at all.

#3224 StefanArak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:15

Fair enough. Hamilton is (or used to be) sometimes and according to some people ranked as an all time best. To beat an all time best over a season is not what most here predicted at the end of 09 and it's not a bad achievement at all.


I agree, well, I wasn't saying it sarcastically. Obviously Button did indeed beat Hamilton in a cumulative points total over the 3 years, although this is of course an arbitrary measure as it's not how success is measured in Formula 1. Still though, it does tell an interesting 'alternative history'. Of course if you're interested in alternative histories then you can't ignore the amount of points Hamilton lost in 2012. It really makes me feel ill to think how different the season could have been (as a Hamilton fan).

#3225 skyform

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:18

If you want to talk about the safety car ruining Jenson's race then you have to take in account all the points Jenson scored with Lewis' retirements. Or it's just bad luck when Jenson is the loser?

And I said Lewis destroyed Jenson this season not this race in particular.


Agree on everything you wrote.


#3226 tkulla

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:25

I'm curious to see how Lewis fans handle next year. Will the focus be on the battle with Rosberg (who is no slouch) or will there be a continuation of this thread where every Button success is attacked with a "but Lewis would have been faster" theme.

I suppose it will depend on how good the Merc is next season, along with Hamilton's performance versus Rosberg. If he's beating Nico easily then there might be time to try to diminish Button's efforts, I suspect.

#3227 StefanArak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:29

I'm curious to see how Lewis fans handle next year. Will the focus be on the battle with Rosberg (who is no slouch) or will there be a continuation of this thread where every Button success is attacked with a "but Lewis would have been faster" theme.

I suppose it will depend on how good the Merc is next season, along with Hamilton's performance versus Rosberg. If he's beating Nico easily then there might be time to try to diminish Button's efforts, I suspect.


Well, "Lewis fans" aren't a single unit, governed by a hive-mind. Some "Lewis fans" may attack Button, some may focus on Rosberg, some may attack Vettel's achievements, who knows? Similarly, some Button fans are reasonable, others are unreasonable.

It certainly wouldn't be diminishing Button to wonder where Hamilton would have qualified if Button qualifies, for example, p4, p3, p4, p5, p3 in his first 5 races.

#3228 ForzaGTR

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:39

2-1

Job done. It was closer than many expected but in all honesty the points do not give the whole story.

It's been emotional.

#3229 thesham01

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:43

but this is exactly the whole point!!! jb made the decision to not pit...genius and gave him a 40 second lead and he kept it on the straight and narrow. a skill so conveniently ignored by the lalas

lalas just want point for qualy and nothing else it seems...haha unlucky


Only points for Qualy? Hamilton has crushed Button this season performance wise, in both qualy and race.

Why don't you admit Hamilton deserves to have more points than he does, and we can all move on sensibly?

#3230 Buttoneer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:48

Not read the thread for some weeks but here's my summary of the race weekend and season.

This weekend was a Button win, but not a clear one. Qualifying was so close in ultimate time that it doesn't weigh in Hamilton's favour enough to outweigh the performance Jenson put in during the race. He got past Hamilton cleanly, and was only re-passed because of the safety car. Regardless that Hamilton was taken out by Hulkenberg while ahead, he wasn't far enough ahead that he had demonstrated a clear performance difference, nor can we now guess what might have happened had he been able to recover to the track. It is nevertheless a tragedy that he was taken out, simply because of how crowded the track suddenly became for him at that corner.

The season was I believe an emphatic win for Hamilton. He lost a handful of points from a number of unfortunate events while he was running high in the points. He should have been in WDC contention today, if the racing Gods had been fairer. I'm impressed by how calm and mature Hamilton has become since his decision to leave McLaren. It must have been a difficult decision for him, but I believe that even if the results don't come (maybe especially if they don't) it will be the making of him. He'll flourish at Mercedes and the team will love him.

Buttons season was notable for the early season dip. We simply don't have enough information on what was going on to know where that came from but it seems clear that it played with Button's big weakness that he simply can't deal with an unbalanced car. Button is not a poor driver, and his performance then was quite uncharacteristic, but anyone who hopes to be in WDC contention cannot afford moments like that and maybe he was not strong enough to demand changes that he needed or demanded something changed that he shouldn't. Overall though, I think the season for him just hasn't been as good as Hamilton's and he hasn't been as good to watch.

Not quite sure how this will be received, and not terribly bothered. I'm not going to make efforts to convince anyone here of my view, it's just there, and I'll pop off and bide my time until the day we get to close the thread, or if someone can be arsed to report the trolling.

#3231 StefanArak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:49

Top tier is Lewis, Fred and Vettel. Most pundits would agree with me.

Button does not have Lewis's skill set otherwise 2010 and 2012 (ie. with a non-reckless Lewis) wouldn't have been lopsided towards Lewis in the head-to-head.


Thing is, how was Lewis reckless at all in 2012? I agree he has been in the past, particularly 2011, he was incredibly incident prone, but the closest thing this year I can think of is Maldonado in valencia, and MAL was penalised for that!

#3232 Buttoneer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:49

Note also that this thread is not for the discussion of 'tiers' it is about Jenson v Lewis, no more and no less.

Please get back to topic.

#3233 tkulla

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:50

Fair enough, but do you at least recognise from the other threads on driving rating that this is an extremely minority view?


Extremely? Last year Button was the best of the rest and ahead of Lewis and Fernando in roughly (or exactly) comparable machinery. He also beat Webber in what was by far the best car. So exactly where would you put Jenson? If you put him in a lower tier, that means you think there are other drivers capable of beating Lewis over a season besides my top 5.

#3234 Crazy Ninja

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:53

My view of Button has went up quite a lot in his 3 seasons with Lewis. There's no doubt in my mind that Hamilton is the naturally quicker driver - not by much mind - but i am also sure that Jenson is the smarter, more experienced (duh!), and better decision maker of the two. He may not have the absolute raw pace of Lewis, and may not be as able to drive the wheels off an unbalanced car as Lewis can, but he is without doubt a brilliant Grand Prix driver. I look forward to seeing him lead McLaren next season.

#3235 slmk

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:54

Extremely? Last year Button was the best of the rest and ahead of Lewis and Fernando in roughly (or exactly) comparable machinery. He also beat Webber in what was by far the best car. So exactly where would you put Jenson? If you put him in a lower tier, that means you think there are other drivers capable of beating Lewis over a season besides my top 5.


Fair enough, but in 2010 and 2012, Jenson got trounced by Lewis. Unfortunately, points do not reflect that. Jenson did very well to have beat Lewis over 1 season and in points over 3 years, but he still lacks speed in qualifying and is quite demanding in terms of setups (how many times have we heard him this season complaining about balance).

#3236 Buttoneer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:55

Please also stop discussing other posters. Please concentrate your efforts on discussing the drivers. Thanks.

#3237 skyform

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:56

Top tier is Lewis, Fred and Vettel. Most pundits would agree with this.

Button does not have Lewis's skill set otherwise 2010 and 2012 (ie. with a non-reckless Lewis) wouldn't have been lopsided towards Lewis in the head-to-head.

EDIT: He is not far behind, though. But he doesn't have that killer instinct.


Exactly and Button is way to inconsistent, he never showed a consistent performance like for example Hamilton in this year, or Vettel last year, or Alonso in 2005 and 2006 not even with Brawn in 2009. He simply isn't on their level.

#3238 tkulla

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:56

Not read the thread for some weeks but here's my summary of the race weekend and season.

This weekend was a Button win, but not a clear one. Qualifying was so close in ultimate time that it doesn't weigh in Hamilton's favour enough to outweigh the performance Jenson put in during the race. He got past Hamilton cleanly, and was only re-passed because of the safety car. Regardless that Hamilton was taken out by Hulkenberg while ahead, he wasn't far enough ahead that he had demonstrated a clear performance difference, nor can we now guess what might have happened had he been able to recover to the track. It is nevertheless a tragedy that he was taken out, simply because of how crowded the track suddenly became for him at that corner.

The season was I believe an emphatic win for Hamilton. He lost a handful of points from a number of unfortunate events while he was running high in the points. He should have been in WDC contention today, if the racing Gods had been fairer. I'm impressed by how calm and mature Hamilton has become since his decision to leave McLaren. It must have been a difficult decision for him, but I believe that even if the results don't come (maybe especially if they don't) it will be the making of him. He'll flourish at Mercedes and the team will love him.

Buttons season was notable for the early season dip. We simply don't have enough information on what was going on to know where that came from but it seems clear that it played with Button's big weakness that he simply can't deal with an unbalanced car. Button is not a poor driver, and his performance then was quite uncharacteristic, but anyone who hopes to be in WDC contention cannot afford moments like that and maybe he was not strong enough to demand changes that he needed or demanded something changed that he shouldn't. Overall though, I think the season for him just hasn't been as good as Hamilton's and he hasn't been as good to watch.

Not quite sure how this will be received, and not terribly bothered. I'm not going to make efforts to convince anyone here of my view, it's just there, and I'll pop off and bide my time until the day we get to close the thread, or if someone can be arsed to report the trolling.


Button's dip in form was interesting, and I wonder if we'll find out more. Ultimately I suspect it came down to not understanding the tyres and Jenson's own experience with previous tyres leading him down a blind alley since these Pirelli's appeared to behave unlike any other tyre.

McLaren is the perfect place for Jenson because it is so data driven and they have been good at working with tyres in the past but it appears they were lost and it was the old garbage in, garbage out problem for the simulator. It will be interesting to see if they start off next year understanding the rubber bits.



#3239 Gareth

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:13

Not read the thread for some weeks but here's my summary of the race weekend and season.

This weekend was a Button win, but not a clear one. Qualifying was so close in ultimate time that it doesn't weigh in Hamilton's favour enough to outweigh the performance Jenson put in during the race. He got past Hamilton cleanly, and was only re-passed because of the safety car. Regardless that Hamilton was taken out by Hulkenberg while ahead, he wasn't far enough ahead that he had demonstrated a clear performance difference, nor can we now guess what might have happened had he been able to recover to the track. It is nevertheless a tragedy that he was taken out, simply because of how crowded the track suddenly became for him at that corner.

The season was I believe an emphatic win for Hamilton. He lost a handful of points from a number of unfortunate events while he was running high in the points. He should have been in WDC contention today, if the racing Gods had been fairer. I'm impressed by how calm and mature Hamilton has become since his decision to leave McLaren. It must have been a difficult decision for him, but I believe that even if the results don't come (maybe especially if they don't) it will be the making of him. He'll flourish at Mercedes and the team will love him.

Buttons season was notable for the early season dip. We simply don't have enough information on what was going on to know where that came from but it seems clear that it played with Button's big weakness that he simply can't deal with an unbalanced car. Button is not a poor driver, and his performance then was quite uncharacteristic, but anyone who hopes to be in WDC contention cannot afford moments like that and maybe he was not strong enough to demand changes that he needed or demanded something changed that he shouldn't. Overall though, I think the season for him just hasn't been as good as Hamilton's and he hasn't been as good to watch.

Not quite sure how this will be received, and not terribly bothered. I'm not going to make efforts to convince anyone here of my view, it's just there, and I'll pop off and bide my time until the day we get to close the thread, or if someone can be arsed to report the trolling.

Excellent summary of the race and this season.

The battle between these two guys has been tremedous fun, IMO. It's rare to get two drivers of such high level in an F1 team together. I'll miss that. I don't see where its coming from next season (unless Rosberg proves to be better than I expected, or Perez turns out to be the real deal and hits the ground running - both of which could well happen, so there's hope yet).

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#3240 Rinehart

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:35

It's been a great three years. McLaren are the only ones who suffer from Hamilton moving, it kills me that it has come to this. But for ANYONE who thinks that Button is remotely close to Hamilton (in F1 terms) - please, give it a rest. Jenson is awesome, a fantastic driver, a great talent, ruthless and determined. And yet still not in Hamilton's class. And I actually think he'd agree.


:rotfl:

Hahah you try so hard to MAKE everyone believe what you believe. I think Button would agree with me that Hamilton is faster, but not better.

#3241 Gareth

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:35

"Luck" that keeps happening the same eh...

Take the inverted commas off an you'd be right. The crash was 100% Hulkenburg's fault.

Of course if your method of watching F1 is to look at a spreadsheet and say "[X] crashes for Lewis, [Y] for Button - so this must have been Lewis' fault" then fine.

I'd rather actually watch the race.

#3242 TurboF1

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:37

Excellent summary of the race and this season.

The battle between these two guys has been tremedous fun, IMO. It's rare to get two drivers of such high level in an F1 team together. I'll miss that. I don't see where its coming from next season (unless Rosberg proves to be better than I expected, or Perez turns out to be the real deal and hits the ground running - both of which could well happen, so there's hope yet).


I think Nicos been underrated big time, and will definitely give Lewis a run for his money. Sergio I think will be close to Jenson at times, I but I dont see Checo beating Jenson over the course of a season. Anything is possible, and I could end up completely wrong on both counts, but I think its not unrealistic to expect both Lewis and Jenson to respectively finish the season ahead of their new teammates.

#3243 Rinehart

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:41

Sums up his season. Such horrid luck.


Luck!!!! God I hope Perez fans take on everything isn't quite so simple.

#3244 McDamo

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:46

Luck!!!! God I hope Perez fans take on everything isn't quite so simple.


So Lewis leaving Hulk room only for him to slide into his front wheel and ending his race isn't bad luck?

#3245 Moore

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:49

Luck!!!! God I hope Perez fans take on everything isn't quite so simple.


Quick rain check mate, you have to actually watch the races instead of looking at the finishing result to have an opinion on what happened.

#3246 Rinehart

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:51

Why is this being discussed?

It finished 2-1.

Lewis with more poles and wins.

Forum consensus put Lewis on a higher level.


Ah but 3 years ago the consensus was that Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. That hasn't happened, in fact Button has OUTSCORED Lewis over 3 years. So bollocks to the kids quite frankly.

#3247 Cult

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:01

Ah but 3 years ago the consensus was that Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. That hasn't happened, in fact Button has OUTSCORED Lewis over 3 years. So bollocks to the kids quite frankly.


Button has done very well however how many of those points were in the second half of 2011 when Hamilton had given up on the championship/had major personal problems or when Lewis had retirements when leading the race.

Your scope is very narrow, Tarso Marques beat Alonso in 2001 so to hell with those who don't think he's world championship material!

#3248 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:02

Take the inverted commas off an you'd be right. The crash was 100% Hulkenburg's fault.

Of course if your method of watching F1 is to look at a spreadsheet and say "[X] crashes for Lewis, [Y] for Button - so this must have been Lewis' fault" then fine.

I'd rather actually watch the race.


It was hulks fault 100% but Hamilton was battling for position, trying to out brake him. What happens to cars on the Inside wet line? Seriously is backing off never an option even if it means staying in the race and eventually winning? There is no luck in this, Hamilton wasn't at fault but he could try harder to stay out of trouble. That's why this keeps happening.

#3249 inca_roads

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:06

Button wins again and Hamilton crashes again in a chaotic race. "Luck" that keeps happening the same eh...


As far as I know, Hamilton's recent results on live BBC races are DNF-DNF-10th-DNF-DNF, while on Sky they're 1st-1st-5th-4th-1st.

Has there got to be a reason for that, because things that happen repeatedly can't be put down to luck, and have to be explainable?

#3250 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:06

I'm not sure 'crashes' is the right verb. I'm not sure you can attribute an action towards Hamilton in the incident, he was 'swiped' by Hulkenberg.

I'm concerned if you think Hamilton was to blame for the incident. Well done to Jenson on the victory though, it was neck and neck and his courageous decision gave him 40-50 seconds on all but one car. Could have been a very, very dominating race with no safety cars.


No as I've just said, Hamilton was not at fault at all, but he's never pragmatic. I think the fact he battles for every position is his undoing.