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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#3251 robefc

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:13

It was hulks fault 100% but Hamilton was battling for position, trying to out brake him. What happens to cars on the Inside wet line? Seriously is backing off never an option even if it means staying in the race and eventually winning? There is no luck in this, Hamilton wasn't at fault but he could try harder to stay out of trouble. That's why this keeps happening.


He's had 2 contacts of this type all season (spa obviously does apply), I agree he could have been more pragmatic in Valencia, no way anyone would be braking early to let another car through on the inside for the lead of a GP.

It was unfortunate in that the backmarker (kovi?) meant space was at a premium.

Edited by robefc, 26 November 2012 - 00:13.


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#3252 engel

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:14

It was hulks fault 100% but Hamilton was battling for position, trying to out brake him. What happens to cars on the Inside wet line? Seriously is backing off never an option even if it means staying in the race and eventually winning? There is no luck in this, Hamilton wasn't at fault but he could try harder to stay out of trouble. That's why this keeps happening.


Hamilton was being overtaken. Sure he could have Webbered it and gone to the run off just in case something happened but let's be fair here, nobody races like that. Hamilton did not squeeze Hulk, he just drove the line and got caught in somebody else's accident. Unlucky. But that's not Hamilton "fighting" everything. Watch Schumi and Kimi going through there, much tighter, no accidents.

#3253 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:16

He's had 2 contacts of this type all season (spa obviously does apply), I agree he could have been more pragmatic in Valencia, no way anyone would be braking early to let another car through on the inside for the lead of a GP.

It was unfortunate in that the backmarker (kovi?) meant space was at a premium.


JB did and he ended up winning...

#3254 Cult

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:16

No as I've just said, Hamilton was not at fault at all, but he's never pragmatic. I think the fact he battles for every position is his undoing.


I agree with you, sometimes he doesn't accept a situation is fairly futile e.g. Valencia this year. 100% Maldonado's fault but the overtake was going to happen anyway so he should have yielded.

Today I feel enough room was given and very few on the grid would have pulled completely back. Hulkenberg made an unusual error (not many cars were spinning at turn 1).

#3255 gm914

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:20

As far as I know, Hamilton's recent results on live BBC races are DNF-DNF-10th-DNF-DNF, while on Sky they're 1st-1st-5th-4th-1st.

Has there got to be a reason for that, because things that happen repeatedly can't be put down to luck, and have to be explainable?


:eek: Needs own thread!

#3256 StefanArak

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:35

As far as I know, Hamilton's recent results on live BBC races are DNF-DNF-10th-DNF-DNF, while on Sky they're 1st-1st-5th-4th-1st.

Has there got to be a reason for that, because things that happen repeatedly can't be put down to luck, and have to be explainable?


Things that happen repeatedly can't be put down to luck? That's a new one. Are you falbbergasted when the same number comes up 4 times in row in roulette?

#3257 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:35

I agree with you, sometimes he doesn't accept a situation is fairly futile e.g. Valencia this year. 100% Maldonado's fault but the overtake was going to happen anyway so he should have yielded.

Today I feel enough room was given and very few on the grid would have pulled completely back. Hulkenberg made an unusual error (not many cars were spinning at turn 1).


Well it is what it is. I feel sorry for Hamilton that his last race with Mclaren didn't end on a better note and look forwards to seeing what he can do with that Mercedes. A lot, I reckon. Rosberg is a fast qualifier, but I think he's no Button over a season of racing.

I think the bottom line is that in every year Hamilton has had more crashes, more contact, more strategic failings and more mechanical issues than Button. It is what it is. He still beat Button 2-1, Button scored more points overall. It shows that aggression and speed can beat calmness and craft, but possibly not overall. They still have 1 title each after 3 seasons together, which is I feel an under-achievement for both of them, despite me also believe they have been an awesome driver pairing. Go figure!

That first season was key for me, that fact that Button was so close to Hamilton despite being new to the team is I think underrated. Very few drivers join a team, especially were the incumbent teammate is a world champion and has a reputation for being the fastest guy in f1 and put up a strong challenge. The next 2 seasons were blighted by Hamiltons head and then Buttons set up....

Like someone else said, I'm pretty comfortable with my own conclusions, for me the reason why they are close is obvious.

#3258 robefc

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:41

JB did and he ended up winning...


Did JB brake early to let Hulk by?

Just rewatched it

a) Hulk makes a half move up the inside of turn 1 on lap 17 and could have quite easily collected JB if he'd lost his back end, JB keeps him behind
b) JB stands no chance on lap 19 when Hulk passes him, it's not remotely a similar situation

Edited by robefc, 26 November 2012 - 00:54.


#3259 inca_roads

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:55

Things that happen repeatedly can't be put down to luck? That's a new one. Are you falbbergasted when the same number comes up 4 times in row in roulette?


I don't know if I wrote that post badly, but I was trying to make the opposite point, mate, in response to another poster - that those results show that things can happen repeatedly in a statistically unlikely way without there being any explainable underlying reason for it, and it can only be explained as luck, chance etc.

Edited by inca_roads, 26 November 2012 - 01:56.


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#3260 StefanArak

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:03

I don't know if I wrote that post badly, but I was trying to make the opposite point, mate, in response to another poster - that those results show that things can happen repeatedly in a statistically unlikely way without there being any explainable underlying reason for it, and it can only be explained as luck, chance etc.


Ah I see, sorry I totally missed that when I first read it. Well between us, I think we got the point across :rotfl:.

#3261 kpchelsea

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:03

I'm not sure 'crashes' is the right verb. I'm not sure you can attribute an action towards Hamilton in the incident, he was 'swiped' by Hulkenberg.

I'm concerned if you think Hamilton was to blame for the incident. Well done to Jenson on the victory though, it was neck and neck and his courageous decision gave him 40-50 seconds on all but one car. Could have been a very, very dominating race with no safety cars.

You do realise that Button needed to stop for tyres?

#3262 inca_roads

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:07

Ah I see, sorry I totally missed that when I first read it. Well between us, I think we got the point across :rotfl:.


No problem. :) And hopefully we did, yeah.

#3263 gricey1981

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:10

Hamiltons the clear winner for the season and there time together. JB gets the race today though no doubt.

Jb ran him closer than i thought he would - but theres no doubt who is the better driver.

Anyway kudos to them both for providing great entertainment these last 3 years.

Jenson is in the pound seat now. Checo wont be a match for him. Ill cheer him on next year!

#3264 akshay380

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:01

IIRC, my first post on this thread. It seems for some JB fans Jenson 'not being thrashed' by Lewis 3-0 means Jenson is on the same level as Lewis. Anything that makes you happy guys. No doubt Jenson has raised his stock by staying much closer to Lewis than many expected but is he among the top drivers? Hell no. McLaren know Jenson and Lewis since three years. They wouldnt have offered Lewis the highest paid driver status if they had thoughts like you.

Edited by akshay380, 26 November 2012 - 03:32.


#3265 Obi Offiah

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:33

I know this is the JB vs LH thread, however the fact that McLaren were beaten by Ferrari in the WCC and that in the WDC standings, both JB and LH were beaten by Kimi in the Lotus is testament that the points table doesn't tell the whole story.

#3266 jstrains

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:57

One after the race

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#3267 stanga

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:11

Hamilton was being overtaken. Sure he could have Webbered it and gone to the run off just in case something happened but let's be fair here, nobody races like that. Hamilton did not squeeze Hulk, he just drove the line and got caught in somebody else's accident. Unlucky. But that's not Hamilton "fighting" everything. Watch Schumi and Kimi going through there, much tighter, no accidents.


At the end of the day that's why you can say there is a gulf in class between drivers like Kimi, Alonso, Lewis, Vettel, Button etc and the rest. They know how to fight.

Yet again, Hamilton is expected to behave like no other top driver on the grid.

#3268 wonderwall

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:16

I predicted Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. What is clear after 3 seasons is that Hamilton is on another level in terms of performance and talent, but as an overall package they are evenly matched. I still believe this was mostly down to Hamilton being on the end of more bad luck but over 3 seasons it should have balanced out. Hamilton has to share some responsibility in avoiding situations the way Button does. Button is a pretty good driver, better than I thought.

#3269 tifosiMac

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:40

i think that if you read all of my posts then you would see that we dont actually disagree...lewis is an exceptional driver...really awesome

I don't have time to read individual posts as I was commenting on an observation concerning opinions. Yes Lewis is an exceptional driver and there is no shame in being beaten by him. Jenson is magnanimous in defeat.

#3270 Peter Perfect

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:00

I predicted Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. What is clear after 3 seasons is that Hamilton is on another level in terms of performance and talent, but as an overall package they are evenly matched. I still believe this was mostly down to Hamilton being on the end of more bad luck but over 3 seasons it should have balanced out. Hamilton has to share some responsibility in avoiding situations the way Button does. Button is a pretty good driver, better than I thought.

:up: Good post. I'd agree with that.

#3271 Dalton007

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:19

When Hulk passed Button, it looked like Button let him through. Hulk's speed was pretty impressive.

#3272 skidmarks

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:39

When Hulk passed Button, it looked like Button let him through. Hulk's speed was pretty impressive.


It looked to me as if the FI had more down force, and JB had a little bit more than Hamilton. Hamilton was building a good lead until rain hit again, and it seemed that both McLaren's lost the same pace in those worsening conditions.





#3273 Stoobs

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:41

You do realise that Button needed to stop for tyres?


Hulk and Button were 40+ seconds down the road, by the time that'd have needed to stop, they could have well had enough time for two or three free pitstops... (based on 20 secs total loss for a stop, which is very generous for Brazil)



#3274 sofarapartguy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:49

What is final points score-card over 3 years?

#3275 boldhakka

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:17

So Jenson beat Lewis over the three years together? That just feels so wrong. Fair play though, that's how things role and is a good cautionary tale for the kids to not just look at the points.

#3276 tifosiMac

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:21

So Jenson beat Lewis over the three years together? That just feels so wrong. Fair play though, that's how things role and is a good cautionary tale for the kids to not just look at the points.

He beat him when points are added up but these guys race for results and the results show that Lewis won more races and finished ahead of Jenson in two of the three seasons. Lewis beat Jenson, although not as convincingly as I had hoped but the results this year don't tell the true gulf between their performances. Lewis really answered the critics this year and rightfully so we see praise for him throughout the paddock despite a very unlucky year.

#3277 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:30

So Jenson beat Lewis over the three years together? That just feels so wrong. Fair play though, that's how things role and is a good cautionary tale for the kids to not just look at the points.


Or not just look at speed.

Take ALL the occasions when Lewis or Jenson had any sort of issue and however biased the calculation, it remains very, very close after 3 years. Sure Hamilton is ahead but not by much at all. Take out any occasion where it was any sort of collision, penalty or strategic error and put it down to racing and hindsight and its closer still.

#3278 slmk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:42

I predicted Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. What is clear after 3 seasons is that Hamilton is on another level in terms of performance and talent, but as an overall package they are evenly matched. I still believe this was mostly down to Hamilton being on the end of more bad luck but over 3 seasons it should have balanced out. Hamilton has to share some responsibility in avoiding situations the way Button does. Button is a pretty good driver, better than I thought.


How could Lewis have avoided any of the bad luck that happened this year?

#3279 Force Ten

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:43

So Jenson beat Lewis over the three years together? That just feels so wrong. Fair play though, that's how things role and is a good cautionary tale for the kids to not just look at the points.

Funny and here I thought that it's a good cautionary tale for kids that sometimes it pays to also eat vegetables and can not get by only eating candy and chocolate.

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#3280 boldhakka

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:44

He beat him when points are added up but these guys race for results and the results show that Lewis won more races and finished ahead of Jenson in two of the three seasons. Lewis beat Jenson, although not as convincingly as I had hoped but the results this year don't tell the true gulf between their performances. Lewis really answered the critics this year and rightfully so we see praise for him throughout the paddock despite a very unlucky year.


Oh yeah, sorry. I meant to say "beat him in points total". Agree with what you're saying.

#3281 Gareth

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:47

I predicted Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. What is clear after 3 seasons is that Hamilton is on another level in terms of performance and talent, but as an overall package they are evenly matched. I still believe this was mostly down to Hamilton being on the end of more bad luck but over 3 seasons it should have balanced out. Hamilton has to share some responsibility in avoiding situations the way Button does. Button is a pretty good driver, better than I thought.

Agree with all of that.

Only thing I'd say is that, yes, it should have balanced out. But it didn't.

#3282 Lazy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:59

Agree with all of that.

Only thing I'd say is that, yes, it should have balanced out. But it didn't.


I'd agree with that but I'd add "as far as we know".

#3283 robefc

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:34

I'd agree with that but I'd add "as far as we know".


:up: to you and gareth and the original poster.


Edited by robefc, 26 November 2012 - 10:36.


#3284 Gareth

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:40

I'd agree with that but I'd add "as far as we know".

So would I.

Too much agreeing for this thread - we'll get chucked out soon!

#3285 Kucki

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:50

To me Hamilton was the clear winner of the time with JB. He could have easily been the Champion in 2012 without his incredible bad luck streak.

#3286 StefanArak

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 13:42

Extremely? Last year Button was the best of the rest and ahead of Lewis and Fernando in roughly (or exactly) comparable machinery. He also beat Webber in what was by far the best car. So exactly where would you put Jenson? If you put him in a lower tier, that means you think there are other drivers capable of beating Lewis over a season besides my top 5.


Not really, as I believe Hamilton's points are not a true representation of the performance gap. Regardless of that, I wasn't talking about that- I was talking about the forum wide polls that are done at the end of each season. Like it or not, it's a minority view, sorry.

Edited by StefanArak, 26 November 2012 - 13:42.


#3287 thesham01

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:11

Luck!!!! God I hope Perez fans take on everything isn't quite so simple.


Another guy crashing into him, after leaving him enough room, is not bad luck?

Ah but 3 years ago the consensus was that Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. That hasn't happened, in fact Button has OUTSCORED Lewis over 3 years. So bollocks to the kids quite frankly.


Hamilton has thrashed Button this year.

It was hulks fault 100% but Hamilton was battling for position, trying to out brake him. What happens to cars on the Inside wet line? Seriously is backing off never an option even if it means staying in the race and eventually winning? There is no luck in this, Hamilton wasn't at fault but he could try harder to stay out of trouble. That's why this keeps happening.


So if it was 100% not Hamiltons fault, then why do you continue to imply blame with your 'thats why it keeps happening' statement? That is you assigning fault to Hamilton.

You are of course talking nonsense; Hamilton was very unlucky with the back markers, and then with Heikki being in that exact spot at that time, and then with Hulkenburg losing control of his car. The idea that Hamilton deserves the DNF is typical of you and a few other Button fans; desperate to try find any reason why the points total is representative of their performance.

Edited by thesham01, 26 November 2012 - 14:12.


#3288 sofarapartguy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:29

Hamilton has thrashed Button this year.


2 points difference. WHAT A TRASH!

#3289 TurboF1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:31

How could Lewis have avoided any of the bad luck that happened this year?


Easy really.

He couldve made sure there was an extra litre of fuel in his car in q3 in Barcelona, He shouldve learned to change his own tyres in under 3.5 seconds consistently for the first 1/3 of the season, He shouldve taken his gearbox apart and verified nothing was going to fail in China and Singapore. He definitely shouldve known he was going to have fuel pump/pickup issues in Abu Dhabi, and shouldve had it replaced previously. He left some suspension bits loose in Korea and Japan and finally he didnt study enough at Hogwarts to magic Kovalainen out of the way when Hulkenburg was making a move on him. Thats not even all of it, but thats enough I think.

Thats how.

#3290 thesham01

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:31

2 points difference. WHAT A TRASH!


So you don't think that Hamilton has performed at a different level to Button this year?

#3291 TurboF1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:33

2 points difference. WHAT A TRASH!


If you'd like to swing by my place, I've got every qualy and race this year recorded. This way, after you've actually WATCHED them, you'll see why your response beggars belief.

#3292 Obi Offiah

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:36

Easy really.

He couldve made sure there was an extra litre of fuel in his car in q3 in Barcelona, He shouldve learned to change his own tyres in under 3.5 seconds consistently for the first 1/3 of the season, He shouldve taken his gearbox apart and verified nothing was going to fail in China and Singapore. He definitely shouldve known he was going to have fuel pump/pickup issues in Abu Dhabi, and shouldve had it replaced previously. He left some suspension bits loose in Korea and Japan and finally he didnt study enough at Hogwarts to magic Kovalainen out of the way when Hulkenburg was making a move on him. Thats not even all of it, but thats enough I think.

Thats how.

Those are together quite difficult. It would have been easier/simpler if he'd polished his crystal ball, giving him clearing insight into the future, then all of those things mentioned could have been avoided, so at the end of the day it was his fault.

#3293 sofarapartguy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:40

If you'd like to swing by my place, I've got every qualy and race this year recorded. This way, after you've actually WATCHED them, you'll see why your response beggars belief.

I fully agree that Hamilton is a better driver at the times among the two, no doubt. What just amuses me is a constant attempts to talk about some enormous difference between them, even when there is no.

#3294 thesham01

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:46

I fully agree that Hamilton is a better driver at the times among the two, no doubt. What just amuses me is a constant attempts to talk about some enormous difference between them, even when there is no.


Again, don't you think there has been a big difference between them this year?

#3295 superdelphinus

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:48

Crazy to think that even ignoring the litany of early season mistakes Hamilton would have still been right up there in the standings had the last three retirements from the lead not happened. Never seen anything like it really

#3296 StefanArak

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:49

I fully agree that Hamilton is a better driver at the times among the two, no doubt. What just amuses me is a constant attempts to talk about some enormous difference between them, even when there is no.


People are talking about an enormous performance difference in 2012, not an enormous points difference. If they were, you'd have a point; as it is, you just sound silly.

#3297 TurboF1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:54

Again, don't you think there has been a big difference between them this year?



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I think I'm done. They must either be blind or obtuse. Its very hard to wrap my head around it quite honestly. Its obvious that Hamilton has been impeccable on track this year, in a different league to Button most of the time. They won't admit it, they are too entrenched to let the truth influence them.

Edited by TurboF1, 26 November 2012 - 15:14.


#3298 sofarapartguy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:56

Again, don't you think there has been a big difference between them this year?

Who cares? I can easily make a poker face and say "Button has had a bad luck with set up in the mid season". Does it discribe the picture? No. That is what I'm trying to say - look at a bigger picture.



#3299 sofarapartguy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:59

People are talking about an enormous performance difference in 2012, not an enormous points difference. If they were, you'd have a point; as it is, you just sound silly.

Yeah yeah, but in 2011 massive points and performance difference suddenly transformated into simple "bad luck".

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#3300 skidmarks

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:14

Yeah yeah, but in 2011 massive points and performance difference suddenly transformated into simple "bad luck".


I don't think anybody is saying that 2011 was because of bad luck on Hamilton's part. If anything, we're all saying the same thing; he was the master of his own undoing back then.

But this season? Hamilton's issues have been out of his hands, hence the "bad luck" that everybody has attributed to him. But Button is a different story. If his pace issues were purely down to setup, then that's his problem and his alone. It's up to the driver to get the setup right, if we're to believe Hamilton's detractors after Spa qualifying and after Japan, even when it became apparent problem was actually a part that failed in FP and nobody noticed.