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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#3301 Lazy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:24

I don't think anybody is saying that 2011 was because of bad luck on Hamilton's part. If anything, we're all saying the same thing; he was the master of his own undoing back then.

But this season? Hamilton's issues have been out of his hands, hence the "bad luck" that everybody has attributed to him. But Button is a different story. If his pace issues were purely down to setup, then that's his problem and his alone. It's up to the driver to get the setup right, if we're to believe Hamilton's detractors after Spa qualifying and after Japan, even when it became apparent problem was actually a part that failed in FP and nobody noticed.


Ofc, the team has no involvement in setup.

If I remember correctly the roll bar was Korea and maybe Japan.

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#3302 kpchelsea

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:28

It looked to me as if the FI had more down force, and JB had a little bit more than Hamilton. Hamilton was building a good lead until rain hit again, and it seemed that both McLaren's lost the same pace in those worsening conditions.

Hulk had a rain set up

#3303 kpchelsea

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:30

Hulk and Button were 40+ seconds down the road, by the time that'd have needed to stop, they could have well had enough time for two or three free pitstops... (based on 20 secs total loss for a stop, which is very generous for Brazil)

2 perhaps but not 3, just saying 40 seconds was not the true gap

#3304 pRy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:48

I think also to Jenson's credit he assumed an almost team-leader role within the team before Lewis decided he was leaving. This has meant there is no sudden void left by Lewis departing. No big hole that the team and Jenson has to try and fill. Jenson, arguably, already filled that role and it will be natural now for the team to push him forward and for him to push the team forward. This will help McLaren next year. Mercedes will struggle with this aspect because they have a problem in Rosberg and Hamilton being in the same team. Who pushes the team forward? Who does the team gravitate around? Who is their focus?

#3305 skidmarks

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:55

Ofc, the team has no involvement in setup.


As you have said many a time, the responsibility lies in the hands of the driver. He gives the engineers direction, they follow.


If I remember correctly the roll bar was Korea and maybe Japan.


Korea was where it failed during the race.

Japan was where it failed during FP2 or FP3. Lewis along with all of us, assumed he just made a big mistake with setup. It wasn't until the next race that it was revealed that the setup issues were caused by a damaged/non-functional suspension part.

#3306 BigBadBless

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 17:05

Yeah yeah, but in 2011 massive points and performance difference suddenly transformated into simple "bad luck".


What do you mean? I for one accept that Jenson solidly outperformed Hamilton in 2011. Sure, that was a nightmare year for Hamilton on and off the track, but his demons aren't an excuse in this unforgiving sport. I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about or not...

Edited by StefanArak, 26 November 2012 - 17:05.


#3307 Rocket73

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 17:12

As you have said many a time, the responsibility lies in the hands of the driver. He gives the engineers direction, they follow.


really? not so sure about that...sure is jb has to suffer part of the blame of getting the set up wrong mid-season...30% maybe to jenson and the rest the team...

you think that in a team like mclaren the driver stands there and co-ordinates all of maybe a hundred engineers, some at the track and most at MTC?

and this year the tyre operating window was a complete mystery at the start of the season that's why we had 7 winners in as many races...

so you could say that jb was unlucky to fall foul of it set up wise...

you could...if you were like that.

#3308 Lazy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 17:12

As you have said many a time, the responsibility lies in the hands of the driver. He gives the engineers direction, they follow.


I have said that the responsibility for setup lies with the team which the driver is a part of. I have never said that it is his responsibility alone.

Korea was where it failed during the race.

Japan was where it failed during FP2 or FP3. Lewis along with all of us, assumed he just made a big mistake with setup. It wasn't until the next race that it was revealed that the setup issues were caused by a damaged/non-functional suspension part.


Indeed, but not Spa, nobody has criticised him for the roll bar.

#3309 Rocket73

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 17:14

2 perhaps but not 3, just saying 40 seconds was not the true gap


2 pits stops is quite a sizeable lead in these times...

#3310 Rocket73

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 17:22

i think it's fair to say that since announcing his move to merc Lewis has been a different man...much more relaxed and at the same time more focused...

if that's true then what's been going on for the last season or two? the signs of disharmony with the team have been around for a while now and so have the gremlins which affect his racing...IMO there is a connection

and like pRy implies - lewis doesn't or didn't appear to be a good team leader...unsurprisingly the 'team' fails him often..

i would argue that JB is much better at it and consequently his 'team' performs much better as well

#3311 kpchelsea

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 17:26

2 pits stops is quite a sizeable lead in these times...

But he had to stop so was 1 pitstop in front

#3312 kpchelsea

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 17:47

i think it's fair to say that since announcing his move to merc Lewis has been a different man...much more relaxed and at the same time more focused...

if that's true then what's been going on for the last season or two? the signs of disharmony with the team have been around for a while now and so have the gremlins which affect his racing...IMO there is a connection

and like pRy implies - lewis doesn't or didn't appear to be a good team leader...unsurprisingly the 'team' fails him often..

i would argue that JB is much better at it and consequently his 'team' performs much better as well

So much better that in the fastest car Button finished 5th in the WDC? :confused:

#3313 thesham01

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 17:50

really? not so sure about that...sure is jb has to suffer part of the blame of getting the set up wrong mid-season...30% maybe to jenson and the rest the team...

you think that in a team like mclaren the driver stands there and co-ordinates all of maybe a hundred engineers, some at the track and most at MTC?

and this year the tyre operating window was a complete mystery at the start of the season that's why we had 7 winners in as many races...

so you could say that jb was unlucky to fall foul of it set up wise...

you could...if you were like that.


Just when you thought you couldn't get any less logical...

Hamilton's issue's were mechanical failures, Button's issues had to do with his driving style. Directly to do with his driving style. That is his fault. When Hamilton's driving style had a reputation for burning through tyres, did you call that luck? No, you said he was an inferior driver.

As for the tyres being a lottery, that is such nonsense. Why so was it Button who suffered the most out of nearly all the drivers? It wasn't like half the drivers were suddenly 1 second slower than their team-mate.

The fact is Button couldn't get a grip on the tyres (excuse the pun), and didn't have the set-up ability to fix it. That is most certainly directly his fault. If you want to weakly argue Hamilton is at fault for his misfortune, you can do that. But there is zero chance that Button's issues were down to luck.

Edited by thesham01, 26 November 2012 - 17:52.


#3314 thesham01

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 17:52

i think it's fair to say that since announcing his move to merc Lewis has been a different man...much more relaxed and at the same time more focused...

if that's true then what's been going on for the last season or two? the signs of disharmony with the team have been around for a while now and so have the gremlins which affect his racing...IMO there is a connection

and like pRy implies - lewis doesn't or didn't appear to be a good team leader...unsurprisingly the 'team' fails him often..

i would argue that JB is much better at it and consequently his 'team' performs much better as well


I think you make a good point; Button is helped by his team more than Hamilton is.



#3315 Ricardo F1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 18:36

I think also to Jenson's credit he assumed an almost team-leader role within the team before Lewis decided he was leaving. This has meant there is no sudden void left by Lewis departing. No big hole that the team and Jenson has to try and fill. Jenson, arguably, already filled that role and it will be natural now for the team to push him forward and for him to push the team forward. This will help McLaren next year. Mercedes will struggle with this aspect because they have a problem in Rosberg and Hamilton being in the same team. Who pushes the team forward? Who does the team gravitate around? Who is their focus?

Why is it a problem with Rosberg and Hamilton being in the same team? They'll have equal status but there's no question who they'll be listening to more and that's Hamilton, you don't sign one of the three best drivers in F1 and worry about who you're going to gravitate around, it's pretty obvious who you gravitate around.

For McLaren, Perez might upset the apple cart substantially if he comes in and is quicker than Button from day one. The hole that's being left is somewhere between 0.2-0.5 seconds in qualifying . . .that's a pretty big hole is this year is anything to go by.


#3316 royalblue0

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 18:44

Easy really.

He couldve made sure there was an extra litre of fuel in his car in q3 in Barcelona, He shouldve learned to change his own tyres in under 3.5 seconds consistently for the first 1/3 of the season, He shouldve taken his gearbox apart and verified nothing was going to fail in China and Singapore. He definitely shouldve known he was going to have fuel pump/pickup issues in Abu Dhabi, and shouldve had it replaced previously. He left some suspension bits loose in Korea and Japan and finally he didnt study enough at Hogwarts to magic Kovalainen out of the way when Hulkenburg was making a move on him. Thats not even all of it, but thats enough I think.

Thats how.


:up:

#3317 skidmarks

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 19:24

I have said that the responsibility for setup lies with the team which the driver is a part of. I have never said that it is his responsibility alone.

Ye gods, I'm too tired to look this up right now. I strongly remember your comments in one particular thread, where you put the blame firmly on Lewis's shoulders for setup woes. I just can't for the life of me remember which one. I also remember you directing the blame away from Jenson for any setup woes (the same thread perhaps?) onto the team. Let's just agree that my statement should be treated with outright suspicion, given dirty looks and generally treated like a leaper until I back it up with evidence or admit that I'm just plumb wrong.

Indeed, but not Spa, nobody has criticised him for the roll bar.

I know nobody criticized him for the roll bar min Korea. That's not the what I'm referring to. What I am referring to, is this [url="http://<a%20href="http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=173838&view=findpost&p=5967631"%20target="_blank">http://forums.autosp...t&p=5967631</a>"]little gem[/url] from the Lewis 2012 Thread Part III. Where a few, but mainly one detractor tried to make out that Lewis's issues in Japan didn't materialize until the race and had nothing do with his poor quali, despite evidence (that you yourself pointed out) to the contrary.

#3318 andrewf1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 19:25

2 points difference. WHAT A TRASH!


:lol: :drunk: i suggest from now on you should just watch the standings and not bother with the races. :lol: and i really hope next year, your precious button will retire from the lead in singapore, abu dhabi, brazil and barcelona too (75-100 points) so perez can close in on him within 2 points 'on merit'.

Edited by andrewf1, 26 November 2012 - 19:27.


#3319 Rocket73

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 20:21

So much better that in the fastest car Button finished 5th in the WDC? :confused:


i just said that he fell foul of extremely tricky tyres in the first half of the season..his fault in part

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#3320 Rocket73

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 20:22

I think you make a good point; Button is helped by his team more than Hamilton is.


i did make a good point and you completely missed it...on purpose? cant tell...

#3321 Lazy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 20:27

Ye gods, I'm too tired to look this up right now. I strongly remember your comments in one particular thread, where you put the blame firmly on Lewis's shoulders for setup woes. I just can't for the life of me remember which one. I also remember you directing the blame away from Jenson for any setup woes (the same thread perhaps?) onto the team. Let's just agree that my statement should be treated with outright suspicion, given dirty looks and generally treated like a leaper until I back it up with evidence or admit that I'm just plumb wrong.

I'm afraid.

I know nobody criticized him for the roll bar min Korea. That's not the what I'm referring to. What I am referring to, is this [url="http://&lt;a%20href="http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=173838&view=findpost&p=5967631"%20target="_blank"&gt;http://forums.autosp...631&#60;/a&#62;"]little gem[/url] from the Lewis 2012 Thread Part III. Where a few, but mainly one detractor tried to make out that Lewis's issues in Japan didn't materialize until the race and had nothing do with his poor quali, despite evidence (that you yourself pointed out) to the contrary.

That link doesn't work btw.

So why bring up Spa?


#3322 cooper

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 20:43

Going on pure statistics it isn't hard to see that Lewis has outperformed JB this year! Believe me I am a fan of both but Lewis has been superb this year where as Jenson has been sub average! You can argue to high heaven but the simple facts state that Lewis Hamilton outperformed Jenson Button this year.

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#3323 Rocket73

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 20:53

Just when you thought you couldn't get any less logical...

thanks :rolleyes:

Hamilton's issue's were mechanical failures, Button's issues had to do with his driving style. Directly to do with his driving style. That is his fault. When Hamilton's driving style had a reputation for burning through tyres, did you call that luck? No, you said he was an inferior driver.

lewis seemed to burn his tyres..his fault...maybe his side of the garage were having issues with set up...partly his fault then. personally i think that jb has to suffer that period and lewis has to suffer his woes too

As for the tyres being a lottery, that is such nonsense. Why so was it Button who suffered the most out of nearly all the drivers? It wasn't like half the drivers were suddenly 1 second slower than their team-mate.

if people are going to say that lewis is unlucky to the ridiculous amount of 100-125 points then i will argue that jb was so to have such a mare with set up

The fact is Button couldn't get a grip on the tyres (excuse the pun), and didn't have the set-up ability to fix it. That is most certainly directly his fault. If you want to weakly argue Hamilton is at fault for his misfortune, you can do that. But there is zero chance that Button's issues were down to luck.

we are repeating ourselves here - and he has fixed it now hasn't he? and dont you think it is relevant that in the second half of the season the tyres issues have gone away for all teams? suggesting strongly that the tyres were a mystery to start with (this is widely accepted isnt it?)



#3324 mclara

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 20:59

Going on pure statistics it isn't hard to see that Lewis has outperformed JB this year! Believe me I am a fan of both but Lewis has been superb this year where as Jenson has been sub average! You can argue to high heaven but the simple facts state that Lewis Hamilton outperformed Jenson Button this year.

Posted Image


Great stats.
Really shows how costly Lewis' DNFs have been. Lewis have been alot better this season.
In the their 3 years together it has been closer tough. :)
I still think Lewis is the better of the two.

#3325 cooper

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:11

Great stats.
Really shows how costly Lewis' DNFs have been. Lewis have been alot better this season.
In the their 3 years together it has been closer tough. :)
I still think Lewis is the better of the two.


Undoubtably yes it has been very close over the 3 years. Lewis in 2011 was not driving brilliantly and made a huge amount of judgement errors! Who can also forget Jenson in Canada going from 24th to 1st which still remains one of my favorite races of all time.

This however is Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard so those points are not really relevant. I just wanted to get the cold hard facts out there because to me Lewis has been sensational this year and without question if there wasn't the mechanical reliability or Grosjean taking him out he would have been right up there in WDC contention ship.

#3326 tifosiMac

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:14

Undoubtably yes it has been very close over the 3 years. Lewis in 2011 was not driving brilliantly and made a huge amount of judgement errors! Who can also forget Jenson in Canada going from 24th to 1st which still remains one of my favorite races of all time.

This however is Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard so those points are not really relevant. I just wanted to get the cold hard facts out there because to me Lewis has been sensational this year and without question if there wasn't the mechanical reliability or Grosjean taking him out he would have been right up there in WDC contention ship.

And Jenson would most likely have been comprehensively beaten this year IMO. There really has been a vast difference between the Mac drivers this year and the points tally is generous to say the least. Still Jenson was beaten fair and square, just not by enough.

#3327 TurboF1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:18

Going on pure statistics it isn't hard to see that Lewis has outperformed JB this year! Believe me I am a fan of both but Lewis has been superb this year where as Jenson has been sub average! You can argue to high heaven but the simple facts state that Lewis Hamilton outperformed Jenson Button this year.

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Says it all really. The amount of times something beyond the fault of the driver ahead has occurred that allowed his teammate to be close in points is laughable at this point.

#3328 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:23

Again, don't you think there has been a big difference between them this year?


You keep talking about this year as if its the only season that exists or counts. Jenson was just as valid a reason to explain his dip in performance for a while this year as Lewis had last year. Your argument points to the fact that if the season order had been 2010, 2012, 2011, that Jenson "thrashed" Lewis and is clearly the better driver. Yet not a single JB fan was or is claiming that.

#3329 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:33

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I think I'm done. They must either be blind or obtuse. Its very hard to wrap my head around it quite honestly. Its obvious that Hamilton has been impeccable on track this year, in a different league to Button most of the time. They won't admit it, they are too entrenched to let the truth influence them.


Well a lot of people think that about your sort of view, so the truth must be somewhere in the middle.
I agree that Hamilton had a brilliant season, but at the end of the day Button recovered to have a decent one. Of course, 3 wins, several podiums and some great drives through the field and some valuable lost points such as at Monza can't be discussed, because this thread had to be about Hamilton.

#3330 MP422

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:36

You keep talking about this year as if its the only season that exists or counts. Jenson was just as valid a reason to explain his dip in performance for a while this year as Lewis had last year. Your argument points to the fact that if the season order had been 2010, 2012, 2011, that Jenson "thrashed" Lewis and is clearly the better driver. Yet not a single JB fan was or is claiming that.




There was no "dip" in performance out of lewis last year. He was getting wheel banged by Massa. Equal on wins to Button in 2011... i don't see how 5 month stint of massa/hamilton trumps the rest of their time together. Just like brazil i don't give JB mega props for that win. It's trash.

#3331 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:39

There was no "dip" in performance out of lewis last year. He was getting wheel banged by Massa. Equal on wins to Button in 2011... i don't see how 5 month stint of massa/hamilton trumps the rest of their time together. Just like brazil i don't give JB mega props for that win. It's trash.


Oooooh the voice of reason!

:stoned:

#3332 skidmarks

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:41

I'm afraid.


Or perhaps not.


Secondly, if you are going to separate Lewis from the team like that, saying it's their job to provide him with a fast reliable car and his job to drive it, then you have to apply the same to Jenson. He as well has had bad pit stops, bad strategies, malfunctions etc, but mainly what the team has got wrong with Jenson, is the setup, the failure to get on top of the tyre issue. Given the pace he has shown when they got it right then I think it's fair to say he would have got a stack more points if they had got it right as often as they seemed to with Lewis. Ofc people will argue that it's the drivers job to get the setup right, and generally I would agree with them, but if we are divorcing the driver from the team, then it's actually the drivers job to provide feedback and the engineers job to get the setup right.



Now this is what you have to say about Jenson. First it's the team, and then it's the driver. It's the team who can't get on top of the tire issues, but then again, it's up to the driver. And as you've pointed out time and time again with your interview from Prost, you think it's only setup that is the issue and that the TEAM have to sort that out. It's not Jenson who has to change his approach, apparently.


So why bring up Spa?


Ahhh....an excellent question. Why bring up Spa? Why indeed. It was the race where many detractors were entertaining the idea that, because Lewis was somehow involved in the discussions of which wing to use, he should shoulder responsibility. And sure, Lewis got it wrong, and didn't really know where to go. I have no problems with that. But if that's the case, who is really responsible for Jenson's setup woes during the rest of the season, assuming that was the issue and not his lack of adaptability?

After all, was it not Jenson who dictated the setup direction during that time? Was the phrase that was often bandied about not (paraphrasing somewhat) "Jenson going down the wrong setup path"?

So which is it? Is it the engineers getting it wrong, or Button, or both?

Edited by skidmarks, 26 November 2012 - 21:45.


#3333 CHIUNDA

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:43

Sad to see this adorable ""sibling rivalry" thread near its natural conclusion - Mclaren fans are strange creatures indeed! Sometimes the intensity of conflict among LH and JB fans was way worse than with the fans of the real opponents who were happily plodding along into the championship leadership. Looking forward to some peace - this was ferocious :wave:

#3334 TurboF1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 22:00

Well a lot of people think that about your sort of view, so the truth must be somewhere in the middle.
I agree that Hamilton had a brilliant season, but at the end of the day Button recovered to have a decent one. Of course, 3 wins, several podiums and some great drives through the field and some valuable lost points such as at Monza can't be discussed, because this thread had to be about Hamilton.



On the contrary, I WELCOME this end of the discussion. You see, this is where you will have absolutely no leg to stand on. Yes, Jenson has had his share of no fault issues, and it HAS cost him significant points. If thats where you want to go with this, I challenge you to debate with me which driver has lost more points through no fault of their own. Lets credit them with said points, then look at how the results wouldve turned out if we take said issues out of the equation. Lets just say I wont be surprised if you refuse, because your boy will look the worse for wear at the end of it. :kiss:

#3335 PretentiousBread

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 22:07

Well a lot of people think that about your sort of view, so the truth must be somewhere in the middle.
I agree that Hamilton had a brilliant season, but at the end of the day Button recovered to have a decent one. Of course, 3 wins, several podiums and some great drives through the field and some valuable lost points such as at Monza can't be discussed, because this thread had to be about Hamilton.


So the difference between 'brilliant' and 'decent' is a mere two points, how can that be right?

It's not that we don't acknowledge JB's issues, I don't understand why you think that. I can remember just as well as you all the points he's lost this season through operational/reliability problems. It's that his streak is utterly dwarfed by Hamilton's, and Hamilton ran into more problems from higher points paying positions, it had a monumental effect on the overall points standings, as proven by the stats above. Hamilton spent almost double the amount of laps this year ahead of Button yet he finishes just two points ahead, in a season where he made barely a single on track mistake, (the closest being Valencia, which Maldonado was given a penalty for) how do you reconcile that?

#3336 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 22:18

So the difference between 'brilliant' and 'decent' is a mere two points, how can that be right?

It's not that we don't acknowledge JB's issues, I don't understand why you think that. I can remember just as well as you all the points he's lost this season through operational/reliability problems. It's that his streak is utterly dwarfed by Hamilton's, and Hamilton ran into more problems from higher points paying positions, it had a monumental effect on the overall points standings, as proven by the stats above. Hamilton spent almost double the amount of laps this year ahead of Button yet he finishes just two points ahead, in a season where he made barely a single on track mistake, (the closest being Valencia, which Maldonado was given a penalty for) how do you reconcile that?


Because the gap should be more that 2 points. Have you forgotten. You mention it 10 times a day!  ;)

Listen in the interests of saving time and effort, I'll stick with "decent" for JB and raise Lewis to "Awesome". How's that?

#3337 Rinehart

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 22:19

On the contrary, I WELCOME this end of the discussion. You see, this is where you will have absolutely no leg to stand on. Yes, Jenson has had his share of no fault issues, and it HAS cost him significant points. If thats where you want to go with this, I challenge you to debate with me which driver has lost more points through no fault of their own. Lets credit them with said points, then look at how the results wouldve turned out if we take said issues out of the equation. Lets just say I wont be surprised if you refuse, because your boy will look the worse for wear at the end of it. :kiss:


Circular argument alert!

#3338 TurboF1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 22:32

Circular argument alert!



Surprise Surprise. :( And here I thought we'd finally get to the bottom of this. You hold the points standings as your ultimate safety net, then, when you bring up the fact that JB lost points through no fault of his own and you're challenged on this, it becomes a "circular argument alert" issue. I thought we'd finally get a chance to put this to bed, but nope! Not so lucky.

#3339 skidmarks

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 22:48

Circular argument alert!


A loaded question, certainly, but not a circular argument. I think Turbo is pretty sure of the outcome because he already KNOWS that Jensons DNF's due to mechanical issues or collisions alone that were not his fault, stand at three when compared to Lewis's who's stands at six. And if I'm honest, this is where I think part of the problem lays hen talking about "lost points" due to unforced errors; it doesn't work out in Button's favour. And I'd say the critics of that particular debate already know this, hence their reluctance to discuss it.

** Button **
Bahrain (6th - 6 points) puncture and then "retirement" due to diff/exhaust failure.
Italy - (2nd - 18 points) Fuel pickup
Korea (11th 0 Points) Collision

Total: 24 points

**Hamilton **
Brazil - (1st but might have finished 2nd - 18 points) Collision
Abu Dahbi - (1st - 25 points) Fuel pickup
Singapore (1st - 25 points) Gearbox
Spain (1st, finished 8th - 21 points?) Excluded from quali due to fuel mess up.

Total: 89 points

I'll grant the Spain one MIGHT be contentious, since there's no guarantee Hamilton would have finished 1st. But he did have a lot of pace while in traffic, so had he been in clean air, he could have won given his quali pace. I'm not taking into account for pit mess ups here for simplicity sake. I've also left out the collisions from Spa and Valencia as it's hard to quantify how many points were lost.

Feel free to amend/debate at your leisure.

Edited by skidmarks, 26 November 2012 - 23:15.


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#3340 TurboF1

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:32

A loaded question, certainly, but not a circular argument. I think Turbo is pretty sure of the outcome because he already KNOWS that Jensons DNF's due to mechanical issues or collisions alone that were not his fault, stand at three when compared to Lewis's who's stands at six. And if I'm honest, this is where I think part of the problem lays when talking about "lost points" due to unforced errors; it doesn't work out in Button's favour. And I'd say the critics of that particular debate already know this, hence their reluctance to discuss it.

** Button **
Bahrain (6th - 6 points) puncture and then "retirement" due to diff/exhaust failure.
Italy - (2nd - 18 points) Fuel pickup
Korea (11th 0 Points) Collision

Total: 24 points

**Hamilton **
Brazil - (1st but might have finished 2nd - 18 points) Collision
Abu Dahbi - (1st - 25 points) Fuel pickup
Singapore (1st - 25 points) Gearbox
Spain (1st, finished 8th - 21 points?) Excluded from quali due to fuel mess up.

Total: 89 points

I'll grant the Spain one MIGHT be contentious, since there's no guarantee Hamilton would have finished 1st. But he did have a lot of pace while in traffic, so had he been in clean air, he could have won given his quali pace. I'm not taking into account for pit mess ups here for simplicity sake. I've also left out the collisions from Spa and Valencia as it's hard to quantify how many points were lost.

Feel free to amend/debate at your leisure.


Not that it wouldve been for big points, but dont forget Germany, being the only driver to get a puncture despite being the 7th/8th car driving through the debris. I mean, WTF was THAT?! Lol

Thats why I knew certain posters, who are vigilant in this thread and barely miss any post that doesnt paint a rosy picture of Jenson would not even attempt to discuss this aspect. Because they know, unquestionably, that it highlights Buttons overall underwhelming performance this year. He has been saved an enormous amount of embarrassment due to how the DNFs worked out in his favor. Now that I reflect on it, I cannot remember one instance at all this year where Jensons issues gifted Lewis any points that he wasnt already going to score, but the reverse is always the case. Why is that? I wonder why Lewis seemed to always be up the road from Jenson when misfortune struck?

What becomes readily obvious (as if it wasnt already) Is that if McLaren had had their act together all year Lewis wouldve been deep into this WDC fight, even if you credit Vettel his lost points through reliability. Jenson.... errr... Not so much.

Edited by TurboF1, 27 November 2012 - 01:48.


#3341 Lazy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:42

So which is it? Is it the engineers getting it wrong, or Button, or both?


Look, it's right there in the post you quoted.

IF you want to credit Lewis with a load of points for the "incompetence" of the team he is a part of, then you have to do the same for Jenson. Simple.

And nowhere in that post do I "put the blame firmly on Lewis's shoulders for setup woes" as you stated.

#3342 MP422

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:52

Look, it's right there in the post you quoted.

IF you want to credit Lewis with a load of points for the "incompetence" of the team he is a part of, then you have to do the same for Jenson. Simple.

And nowhere in that post do I "put the blame firmly on Lewis's shoulders for setup woes" as you stated.


The driver not being happy with the car is not "incompetence" of the team. It's "incompetence" of the driver..... :wave:

#3343 Rinehart

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:53

A loaded question, certainly, but not a circular argument. I think Turbo is pretty sure of the outcome because he already KNOWS that Jensons DNF's due to mechanical issues or collisions alone that were not his fault, stand at three when compared to Lewis's who's stands at six. And if I'm honest, this is where I think part of the problem lays hen talking about "lost points" due to unforced errors; it doesn't work out in Button's favour. And I'd say the critics of that particular debate already know this, hence their reluctance to discuss it.

** Button **
Bahrain (6th - 6 points) puncture and then "retirement" due to diff/exhaust failure.
Italy - (2nd - 18 points) Fuel pickup
Korea (11th 0 Points) Collision

Total: 24 points

**Hamilton **
Brazil - (1st but might have finished 2nd - 18 points) Collision
Abu Dahbi - (1st - 25 points) Fuel pickup
Singapore (1st - 25 points) Gearbox
Spain (1st, finished 8th - 21 points?) Excluded from quali due to fuel mess up.

Total: 89 points

I'll grant the Spain one MIGHT be contentious, since there's no guarantee Hamilton would have finished 1st. But he did have a lot of pace while in traffic, so had he been in clean air, he could have won given his quali pace. I'm not taking into account for pit mess ups here for simplicity sake. I've also left out the collisions from Spa and Valencia as it's hard to quantify how many points were lost.

Feel free to amend/debated at your leisure.


It's been done to death many times already and I've said my piece on it many times already so to be accused of ducking is wide. My view is that all crashes, penalties and strategic choices are part of racing. Points are only unfairly lost though reliability (dnf or handicap such as kers failure). On that basis Hamilton has lost more. This season Hamilton has lost about 50 or 60 points more than Button, over 3 years together its not much different. Therefore they are still CLOSE after factoring lost points (for which we don't know if the drivers were partly responsible.



#3344 Rinehart

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:56

It's been done to death many times already and I've said my piece on it many times already so to be accused of ducking is wide. My view is that all crashes, penalties and strategic choices are part of racing. Points are only unfairly lost though reliability (dnf or handicap such as kers failure). On that basis Hamilton has lost more. This season Hamilton has lost about 50 or 60 points more than Button, over 3 years together its not much different. Therefore they are still CLOSE after factoring lost points (for which we don't know if the drivers were partly responsible.


If you want to know more read the thread instead of rehashing old arguments.

#3345 Rocket73

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:00

It's been done to death many times already and I've said my piece on it many times already so to be accused of ducking is wide. My view is that all crashes, penalties and strategic choices are part of racing. Points are only unfairly lost though reliability (dnf or handicap such as kers failure). On that basis Hamilton has lost more. This season Hamilton has lost about 50 or 60 points more than Button, over 3 years together its not much different. Therefore they are still CLOSE after factoring lost points (for which we don't know if the drivers were partly responsible.


:up: good post and it HAS been done to death...

#3346 Rinehart

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:00

The driver not being happy with the car is not "incompetence" of the team. It's "incompetence" of the driver..... :wave:


It remains to be seen if Lewis not being happy with Mclaren and choosing Mercedes is one of the most incompetent decisions in the history of the sport. If Hamilton doesn't win a race for 3 years because of this it's his fault. His choice.

#3347 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:07

It remains to be seen if Lewis not being happy with Mclaren and choosing Mercedes is one of the most incompetent decisions in the history of the sport. If Hamilton doesn't win a race for 3 years because of this it's his fault. His choice.

Of course it is, but isn't that obvious?
One could argue however that its his fault as far as the decision to go there is concerned, but its also partially the teams fault if they don't provide him with a car capable of winning a race. :drunk:

All depends how the individual wants to twist it in their favour.

#3348 mclara

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:22

Look, it's right there in the post you quoted.

IF you want to credit Lewis with a load of points for the "incompetence" of the team he is a part of, then you have to do the same for Jenson. Simple.

And nowhere in that post do I "put the blame firmly on Lewis's shoulders for setup woes" as you stated.


But for crying out loud.
A driver is more responsible for the setup of his car then he is for making sure there is nothing wrong with the car mechanically.
therefore Button is more to blame for the slump of performance midseason than Lewis is for his mechanical issues and therefore the team is more to blame.

#3349 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:29

Button has admitted himself that he has struggled with his setup this year. Finding grip and getting heat into his tyres has always been Button's weakness throughout his F1 career. It is a drivers job to use practise sessions to test the car and communicate with the engineers as to what they wish the car to handle like. A driver has to find a balance with help from the team but they are the only one's driving the car in order to provide feedback. It has long been said that one of Hamilton's strengths is his ability to adapt should the setup not be quite to his liking. I think that has been the difference this year between the two.

Lewis has lost over a 100 points to team blunders and mechanical failures, whereas Button has struggled in qualifying due to not being happy with the setup of his car. The performance gap has been there as a result.

#3350 Lazy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:32

But for crying out loud.
A driver is more responsible for the setup of his car then he is for making sure there is nothing wrong with the car mechanically.
therefore Button is more to blame for the slump of performance midseason than Lewis is for his mechanical issues and therefore the team is more to blame.


Maybe, but the percentage of blame to allocate is tricky.

It's hard to equate the claims of McLarens total incompetence, from LH fans, when it comes to Lewis and their apparent perfection when it comes to Jenson.