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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#3351 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:36

Maybe, but the percentage of blame to allocate is tricky.

It's hard to equate the claims of McLarens total incompetence, from LH fans, when it comes to Lewis and their apparent perfection when it comes to Jenson.

In fairness Lewis has had pretty much a perfect season based on driving standards. Its probably his best season since entering the sport. Are you happy with Jenson's season as a fan of him?

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#3352 Lazy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:12

In fairness Lewis has had pretty much a perfect season based on driving standards. Its probably his best season since entering the sport. Are you happy with Jenson's season as a fan of him?


Yup, Lewis has been great.

Not really but I don't really believe he has suddenly become so inconsistent. Whilst we have come to expect the odd issue in Q over the years, he has always been strong in the race. Therefore I'm of the opinion that he has been handicapped in some way, most probably the tyres being very difficult to work with his driving style. But that's racing and I'm confident that this years tyres were a bit of an anomaly.

Equally, if McLaren have been as incompetent as LH fans like to assert, that's a big if, then it's not to hard to argue that they may have been less than perfect in trying to solve the issue for JB.

#3353 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:24

Equally, if McLaren have been as incompetent as LH fans like to assert, that's a big if, then it's not to hard to argue that they may have been less than perfect in trying to solve the issue for JB.

I don't think its just LH fans that like to assert that simply because its been clear to anybody watching the races that LH has been let down considerably. With regards to Button I don't think this season is an exception because he has always struggled with tyres at some point during a season. In 2009 he admitted the pressure got to him slightly (thats natural for any driver not a dig) but he also struggled with grip from Silverstone onwards. I know his gets the mick taken out of him often because he talks about tyres, but it is becoming a trend. I can't remember a season where Jenson has not struggled with his tyres? When the balance is perfect he gets the job done and often finds pace during a race, but in recent years its qualifying that has made the difference more often than not when heading to the race.

McLaren have let both drivers down this season to some degree, but its obvious that both drivers have had very different experiences in that department. At least with Hamilton the let down has been evident to the viewers at home so its hard to comment on whether or not McLaren have refused to set a car up the way Jenson wanted. One we can speculate and the other we have seen.

#3354 Lazy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:33

I don't think its just LH fans that like to assert that simply because its been clear to anybody watching the races that LH has been let down considerably. With regards to Button I don't think this season is an exception because he has always struggled with tyres at some point during a season. In 2009 he admitted the pressure got to him slightly (thats natural for any driver not a dig) but he also struggled with grip from Silverstone onwards. I know his gets the mick taken out of him often because he talks about tyres, but it is becoming a trend. I can't remember a season where Jenson has not struggled with his tyres? When the balance is perfect he gets the job done and often finds pace during a race, but in recent years its qualifying that has made the difference more often than not when heading to the race.

McLaren have let both drivers down this season to some degree, but its obvious that both drivers have had very different experiences in that department. At least with Hamilton the let down has been evident to the viewers at home so its hard to comment on whether or not McLaren have refused to set a car up the way Jenson wanted. One we can speculate and the other we have seen.


2009 he may have struggled in Q but was always strong in the races, generally making up ground on Rubens. He does have perennial issues with Q and also he tends to be a little off the pace for the 1st couple of laps but not in the races. Remember last year he was known as Mr. Consistent.

This is due imo, to his fluent driving style not putting as much energy in the tyres and so not warming them so quickly. Whilst this a problem for qualifying ( and even then only occasionally) and the 1st laps, once into the race they warm up and his pace is good. The difference this year, which makes it an anomaly imo, is the tiny operating window of the tyres and the fact that if they are not in that window they have less grip, slide , cause graining, so have even less grip, less energy can be put into them so the problem is cumulative. The tiny operating window also means that it is difficult to get front and rears working at the same time, causing unbalance.

The solution is to warm the tyres up quickly, this comes very naturally to Lewis as he generally puts more energy into the tyres but is tricky for Jenson. This, imo, has been the difference between them this year.

#3355 paulrobs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:35

Well done to both Button and Hamilton this year.

I have no doubt that Hamilton will continue to race for victories on a regular basis if Mercedes can give him a reliable car with a wider operating window that this year's Mercedes. Good Luck for next year Lewis, you have done an amazing job this year and would have challenged for the championship without the DNFs. Can you do it on a regular basis though? We'll have to see, it all depends upon Mercedes giving you a competitive car.

I have no doubt that Button will continue to race for victories on a regular basis if McLaren can give him the best car on the grid. Good luck for next year Jeson, you have done an amazing job against Hamilton and I take my hat off to you. Can you do it on a regular basis though? We'll have to see, it all hinges upon McLaren giving you the best car on the grid. You'll be team leader next year too so you'll be setting the benchmark and leading the team and winning the lion's share of the points.

#3356 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:42

2009 he may have struggled in Q but was always strong in the races, generally making up ground on Rubens. He does have perennial issues with Q and also he tends to be a little off the pace for the 1st couple of laps but not in the races. Remember last year he was known as Mr. Consistent.

This is due imo, to his fluent driving style not putting as much energy in the tyres and so not warming them so quickly. Whilst this a problem for qualifying ( and even then only occasionally) and the 1st laps, once into the race they warm up and his pace is good. The difference this year, which makes it an anomaly imo, is the tiny operating window of the tyres and the fact that if they are not in that window they have less grip, slide , cause graining, so have even less grip, less energy can be put into them so the problem is cumulative. The tiny operating window also means that it is difficult to get front and rears working at the same time, causing unbalance.

The solution is to warm the tyres up quickly, this comes very naturally to Lewis as he generally puts more energy into the tyres but is tricky for Jenson. This, imo, has been the difference between them this year.

We have seen numerous instances over the past 2 seasons where Jenson has worn his tyres out quicker than his team mate though. We have seen Hamilton managing his tyres better recently and this has brought them closer together in this department. Indeed Lewis can warm his tyres up within a lap but for Jenson he can go as much as 5 or 6 laps trying to get the same performance. In qualifying you can't do this for obvious reasons.

#3357 Lazy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:52

We have seen numerous instances over the past 2 seasons where Jenson has worn his tyres out quicker than his team mate though. We have seen Hamilton managing his tyres better recently and this has brought them closer together in this department. Indeed Lewis can warm his tyres up within a lap but for Jenson he can go as much as 5 or 6 laps trying to get the same performance. In qualifying you can't do this for obvious reasons.


This year yes, for the reasons I have mentioned, very few, if any, occasions last year.

#3358 Juggles

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:06

2009 he may have struggled in Q but was always strong in the races, generally making up ground on Rubens. He does have perennial issues with Q and also he tends to be a little off the pace for the 1st couple of laps but not in the races. Remember last year he was known as Mr. Consistent.

This is due imo, to his fluent driving style not putting as much energy in the tyres and so not warming them so quickly. Whilst this a problem for qualifying ( and even then only occasionally) and the 1st laps, once into the race they warm up and his pace is good. The difference this year, which makes it an anomaly imo, is the tiny operating window of the tyres and the fact that if they are not in that window they have less grip, slide , cause graining, so have even less grip, less energy can be put into them so the problem is cumulative. The tiny operating window also means that it is difficult to get front and rears working at the same time, causing unbalance.

The solution is to warm the tyres up quickly, this comes very naturally to Lewis as he generally puts more energy into the tyres but is tricky for Jenson. This, imo, has been the difference between them this year.


Not the only difference. Even without Button's problems with the tyres we know from previous seasons that Hamilton would have been starting further up the grid on most occasions. With Hamilton driving as flawlessly as he has I suspect he would still have been ahead of Button in the bulk of the races they both finished (although possibly not by as much). The main difference is Button would have finished ahead of Hamilton in the standings (he wouldn't have had his mid-season slump but Hamilton still would have suffered massively from McLaren's incompetence) which would have been an even greater injustice than the mere two points that separate them.

#3359 Lazy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:25

Not the only difference. Even without Button's problems with the tyres we know from previous seasons that Hamilton would have been starting further up the grid on most occasions. With Hamilton driving as flawlessly as he has I suspect he would still have been ahead of Button in the bulk of the races they both finished (although possibly not by as much). The main difference is Button would have finished ahead of Hamilton in the standings (he wouldn't have had his mid-season slump but Hamilton still would have suffered massively from McLaren's incompetence) which would have been an even greater injustice than the mere two points that separate them.


Maybe, but I think we would have had a lot more battles between them as in Brazil, which would have been fun.

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#3360 maverick69

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:45

An interesting point made by Gary Anderson when comparing the respective title challenges of Alonso and Vettel:

"The Pirellis don't like it when a driver tries to brake and turn in at the same time. Alonso picked that up in no time and adapted himself to it."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20501817

Now. If you look at the respective driving styles: Hamilton likes to stamp hard on the brakes in a straight line and turn in sharply - whereas JB likes to trailbrake combined with wider, smoother arcs (this is why he's typically quite strong at places like Spa for example). So this might explain how he got better after himself and the team spent that time going over Hamilton's data in order to sort out his mid-season woes.

#3361 PretentiousBread

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:59

An interesting point made by Gary Anderson when comparing the respective title challenges of Alonso and Vettel:

"The Pirellis don't like it when a driver tries to brake and turn in at the same time. Alonso picked that up in no time and adapted himself to it."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20501817

Now. If you look at the respective driving styles: Hamilton likes to stamp hard on the brakes in a straight line and turn in sharply - whereas JB likes to trailbrake combined with wider, smoother arcs (this is why he's typically quite strong at places like Spa for example). So this might explain how he got better after himself and the team spent that time going over Hamilton's data in order to sort out his mid-season woes.


The Pirellis had the same trait in 2011 and that wasn't an issue for Button. IMO it is all related to the EBD of 2011 vs the more rear limited 2012 spec cars, in combination with the traits of the Pirellis. A post I made after Friday free practice at Malaysia back in March:

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5616379

I remember back in Montreal, after the race Sam Michael referred to how Hamilton was especially good at adapting to a rear limited car, and he drove the car in quite a similar way in '07 and '08. This year, at tracks like Monaco, Hungary, Singapore, Abu Dhabi - classic rear limited circuits - JB was completely nowhere compared to Hamilton, certainly in qualifying. Yet at the same circuits in 2011 he was remarkably close to him, no problems with the balance. IMO this is the main reason Button has been so comprehensively outperformed this year by Hamilton. In more rearward balanced cars JB is able to be much closer to Hamilton, though LH usually retains an edge, but when the balance shifts to the front, Hamilton retains a lot more of his speed than JB can.






#3362 Rocket73

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:16

Maybe, but I think we would have had a lot more battles between them as in Brazil, which would have been fun.


brazil was such a crazy race that we didn't really get good coverage of them duking it out at the start

#3363 Force Ten

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:26

I don't think its just LH fans that like to assert that simply because its been clear to anybody watching the races that LH has been let down considerably. With regards to Button I don't think this season is an exception because he has always struggled with tyres at some point during a season. In 2009 he admitted the pressure got to him slightly (thats natural for any driver not a dig) but he also struggled with grip from Silverstone onwards. I know his gets the mick taken out of him often because he talks about tyres, but it is becoming a trend. I can't remember a season where Jenson has not struggled with his tyres? When the balance is perfect he gets the job done and often finds pace during a race, but in recent years its qualifying that has made the difference more often than not when heading to the race.

I remember no tyre talk whatsoever with him prior his WDC year of 2009. The argument that refuelling suited him because there was not needed as big a window the car had to be balanced in makes sense in that contetxt. He also seemed to really get in with the Michelin tyres.

There of course is an argument to be made that he is ridiculously oversensitive and gets totally spooked if he even thinks there is something wrong with the balance. Some folks are oversensitive to things that seem utterly stupid to other people. I once had a double bass player in my studio that in the span of 4 hours changed his position in the room about 15 times each time declaring that "this is it, this is the spot where the bass sounds really good, yeah, man!" only to declare it being shite 10 minutes later and move 2 feet to another direction and repeat the process verbatim. Jenson just MAY be THAT guy regarding balance. Ah, well.

#3364 Dalton007

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:33

It's been a learning and trying year for Jenson and perhaps this will bode well for his championship run next year, and the team will only have to listen to his input in engineering a car that he prefers.

#3365 Lazy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:33

The Pirellis had the same trait in 2011 and that wasn't an issue for Button. IMO it is all related to the EBD of 2011 vs the more rear limited 2012 spec cars, in combination with the traits of the Pirellis. A post I made after Friday free practice at Malaysia back in March:

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5616379

I remember back in Montreal, after the race Sam Michael referred to how Hamilton was especially good at adapting to a rear limited car, and he drove the car in quite a similar way in '07 and '08. This year, at tracks like Monaco, Hungary, Singapore, Abu Dhabi - classic rear limited circuits - JB was completely nowhere compared to Hamilton, certainly in qualifying. Yet at the same circuits in 2011 he was remarkably close to him, no problems with the balance. IMO this is the main reason Button has been so comprehensively outperformed this year by Hamilton. In more rearward balanced cars JB is able to be much closer to Hamilton, though LH usually retains an edge, but when the balance shifts to the front, Hamilton retains a lot more of his speed than JB can.


Possibly, but I would imagine that was an issue that could be minimised with setup, maybe a little loss in pace but the races this year where Jenson was miles off the pace indicate that the tyres weren't working at all imo.

All the teams have talked about how small the operating window is for these tyres and Jenson has more than once alluded to this causing the difficulty in getting the car balanced. There's no doubt that all teams were having problems with, especially at the start of the year.

So, for me, the small operating window is the most likely culprit.

#3366 paulrobs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:37

I'm now bored with all the Hamilton v Button at McLaren and I'm looking forward to seeing how they each fare next year. I'll be rooting for Lewis and when he doesn't win I'll be pretty happy if Jenson does.

#3367 Clatter

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:41

I'm now bored with all the Hamilton v Button at McLaren and I'm looking forward to seeing how they each fare next year. I'll be rooting for Lewis and when he doesn't win I'll be pretty happy if Jenson does.


The thread yes, the partnership no. I am looking forward to certain fans taking their imaginary Hamilton world elsewhere.


#3368 paulrobs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:19

The thread yes, the partnership no. I am looking forward to certain fans taking their imaginary Hamilton world elsewhere.


And Button's imaginary world too no doubt

#3369 maverick69

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:43

The Pirellis had the same trait in 2011 and that wasn't an issue for Button. IMO it is all related to the EBD of 2011 vs the more rear limited 2012 spec cars, in combination with the traits of the Pirellis. A post I made after Friday free practice at Malaysia back in March:

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5616379

I remember back in Montreal, after the race Sam Michael referred to how Hamilton was especially good at adapting to a rear limited car, and he drove the car in quite a similar way in '07 and '08. This year, at tracks like Monaco, Hungary, Singapore, Abu Dhabi - classic rear limited circuits - JB was completely nowhere compared to Hamilton, certainly in qualifying. Yet at the same circuits in 2011 he was remarkably close to him, no problems with the balance. IMO this is the main reason Button has been so comprehensively outperformed this year by Hamilton. In more rearward balanced cars JB is able to be much closer to Hamilton, though LH usually retains an edge, but when the balance shifts to the front, Hamilton retains a lot more of his speed than JB can.


I'm pretty sure the Pirelli's didn't have "the same trait in 2011". They changed the structure, profile, and compounds. Hence, the teams having a hard time in the first half of the season - and the comment by Anderson. I think that this aspect is what contributed to the "juddering" fronts that JB was experiencing on a few situations.

As for the loss of the EBD effect - you are completely correct IMO..... And Fingerboy was in very much the same boat....... It's just that they managed to nail it with their "bridge/tunnel" solution.

* Edit. This is just a general observation. I support both drivers - but anyone who thinks that the points this year are reflective of actual driver performance must be kidding themselves. "Moneyball" does not apply to F1. There are just too many external factors.

Edited by maverick69, 27 November 2012 - 15:04.


#3370 BillBald

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:45

Possibly, but I would imagine that was an issue that could be minimised with setup, maybe a little loss in pace but the races this year where Jenson was miles off the pace indicate that the tyres weren't working at all imo.

All the teams have talked about how small the operating window is for these tyres and Jenson has more than once alluded to this causing the difficulty in getting the car balanced. There's no doubt that all teams were having problems with, especially at the start of the year.

So, for me, the small operating window is the most likely culprit.


I suspect that the real problem is that the simulator didn't truly reflect the small operating window of the tyres. That would be the reason why McLaren ran their test drivers rather than the race drivers at the in-season test, to try to get the simulation right.

If the simulator had been working, I'm sure that Jenson would have put in the time to get the setup right. But if he spends a lot of time, gets a really good setup, and then it doesn't work as expected at the track, he doesn't have enough time in FPs to sort it out.

Lewis wasn't so badly affected, because it's not so important for him to get the setup spot-on.


Edit: incidentally, I read somewhere that RB have a device which they run in FPs, which allows the driver to play with damper settings in the cockpit - it can't be used in the race, but can more quickly find a correct setup - if true, I hope McLaren are looking at something similar.


Edited by BillBald, 27 November 2012 - 14:58.


#3371 inca_roads

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 15:40

It's been done to death many times already and I've said my piece on it many times already so to be accused of ducking is wide. My view is that all crashes, penalties and strategic choices are part of racing. Points are only unfairly lost though reliability (dnf or handicap such as kers failure). On that basis Hamilton has lost more. This season Hamilton has lost about 50 or 60 points more than Button, over 3 years together its not much different. Therefore they are still CLOSE after factoring lost points (for which we don't know if the drivers were partly responsible.


Even though I disagree with you about crashes, and there's also not being fuelled properly, pit stops and so on, forgetting that for now, Button lost getting toward 50-60 points from mechanicals/DNF's relative to Lewis in 2010 and 2011? It's not at all true.

IIRC:

2010: Hamilton Spain (18), Hungary (12), Japan (2); Button Nothing (he was out of the points in Monaco when he retired anyway)
2011: Hamilton Brazil (10), Button Germany (12) Europe (2) *Britain was a pit stop problem, which can't be included unless you count other pit stop troubles.

So that's 42-14 to Hamilton. This is not counting points inherited by the driver behind or gearbox grid penalties, which will I think both come out on Lewis' side too. Apologies if I forgot or got one wrong (feel free to add to or amend the list), but I fail to see how, if you recognise the 50-60 this year, that the previous 2 years bring it to anything like not much different.

#3372 PretentiousBread

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 15:40

I'm pretty sure the Pirelli's didn't have "the same trait in 2011". They changed the structure, profile, and compounds. Hence, the teams having a hard time in the first half of the season - and the comment by Anderson. I think that this aspect is what contributed to the "juddering" fronts that JB was experiencing on a few situations.

As for the loss of the EBD effect - you are completely correct IMO..... And Fingerboy was in very much the same boat....... It's just that they managed to nail it with their "bridge/tunnel" solution.


I meant the same traits in terms of the Pirellis not tolerating trail braking, I know the profile is a little different this year to last.


#3373 thesham01

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 15:53

It's been done to death many times already and I've said my piece on it many times already so to be accused of ducking is wide. My view is that all crashes, penalties and strategic choices are part of racing. Points are only unfairly lost though reliability (dnf or handicap such as kers failure). On that basis Hamilton has lost more. This season Hamilton has lost about 50 or 60 points more than Button, over 3 years together its not much different. Therefore they are still CLOSE after factoring lost points (for which we don't know if the drivers were partly responsible.



2010

Spanish GP 2010: Hamilton punctures from 2nd. A bad McLaren pitstop cost Button a place, so cancels it out placed gained.
Hamilton +18

Monaco 2010: Button had engine overheat, but was outside points at time. Presumably would have gained places, but pace was poor that weekend (qualy 8th). I'll give him 8th finish.
Button +4

Hungary 2010: Hamilton retires from 4th, 12 points. Button gains 2 points.
Hamilton +12, Button -2

Spa 2010: Button loses 18 points through no fault of his own.
Button +18

Japan 2010: Hamilton gearbox change, and gearbox failure in race. Was in 4th at time of 3rd gear loss, lapping at the pace of the winner. Had it not been for gearbox change, then gearbox failure in race, he would have challenged for podium at worst.
Hamilton +5, Button -2



Hamilton +35, Button + 18
Hamilton +17


2011

Monaco 2011: Perez crash benefits Button, and hinders Hamilton, in qualy. Hard to quantify this one, so I'll leave it as it is, although I think its pretty clear Hamilton got unlucky.

Silverstone 2011: Button loses wheel. Qualified 5th, and had been over-taken by team-mate (who lay in 4th at race end). Massa finished next to Hamilton, but even so I think giving Button a 5th is fair seeing as he may have finished 6th or 4th.
Button +10

Germany 2011: Button was 6th when hydraulics cost him.
Button + 8

Japan 2011: Hamilton had a bad pitstop putting him behind Webber and Massa. He finished ahead of Massa anyway, but behind Webber, but Hamilton lost alot of time behind Massa. Webber also wreckied his chance at a fast lap in qualy. However its hard to quantify it, so I'll give nothing again.

India 2011: Hamilton taken out by Massa (the one and only clear cut faultless incident for Hamilton of 2011). Was for 5th, and he finished 7th, I'll give him 5th. Remember, if Button gets Spa, Hamilton gets this.
Hamilton +4

Brazil 2011: Hamilton retires with gearbox. 5th was possible.
Hamilton +10



Hamilton + 14, Button +18
Button +4

2012

Australia 2012: Hamilton lost a place due to safety car.
Hamilton +3

China 2012: Hamilton has gearbox penalty. Would have stayed ahead of Button otherwise.
Hamilton +3, Button -3

Bahrain 2012: Total of 22.2 seconds lost in pits. That time alone brings him up to 4th.
Hamilton +8

Spain 2012: McLaren mess up Hamiltons fuel.
Hamilton +21

Valencia 2012: Another bad pitstop cost Hamilton lead, and chance of podium. Bad pitstop brought him into Maldondos clutches, so that incident is forgotten. I'll give him 3rd.
Hamilton +15, Button -2

Germany 2012: Hamilton got a puncture. Given that his pace was similar to that of Buttons in qualy, 4th was definitely not out of the equation.
Hamilton +12

Spa 2012: Hamilton taken out by Grosjean. Pace not great, but at least anywhere between 3rd and 8th on offer. 6th given.
Hamilton +8

Italy 2012: Button robbed of 2nd/3rd. I'll give him 2nd.
Button +18

Singapore 2012: Hamilton gearbox cost him win.
Hamilton +25, Button -3

Japan 2012: Car failure cost Hamilton. Hard to quantify, so I'll leave it.

Korea 2012: Hamilton had car failure, and Button got taken out. I'll leave this as is.

Abu Dhabi 2012: Hamilton robbed of win.
Hamilton +25, Button -2

Brazil 2012: Hamilton non-fault DNF, we'll say he would have got 3rd
Hamilton +15


Hamilton +135, Button +8
Hamilton +125

---------------------------------



Total so far:

Hamilton +139

If you disagree, make your own list.

Edited by thesham01, 27 November 2012 - 15:54.


#3374 mclara

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 16:00

Undoubtably yes it has been very close over the 3 years. Lewis in 2011 was not driving brilliantly and made a huge amount of judgement errors! Who can also forget Jenson in Canada going from 24th to 1st which still remains one of my favorite races of all time.

This however is Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard so those points are not really relevant. I just wanted to get the cold hard facts out there because to me Lewis has been sensational this year and without question if there wasn't the mechanical reliability or Grosjean taking him out he would have been right up there in WDC contention ship.


Was not my intention to discuss 2010 and 2011 either. But Lewis has been much better than Button this year, yes.

#3375 MinT

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 17:50

If you disagree, make your own list.


The big flaw in your arguement (besides the somewhat rose tinted interpretation of several races) is that youa re simply taking out the inconvieninet issue that happened and effectively ending the race there - whereas in the real world Hami still had to negotiate the race to its conclusion - anythign could still ahppen. Take away that gearbox failure tehre - but who is to say he woulndt of put it in teh wall the very next lap, or been hit by a backmarker or had a different mechanical failure etc etc etc - that is before your factor in other issues like flatspotting or wearing out his tyres and getting taken by a rival etc.

Anyone can play the woulda, shoulda coulda game but in the end it is meaningless.

Hami remains a gifted but flawed, much hyped 1 time world champion - whilst his rivals Vettel and Alonso consistantly battle it out for the championship .....like it or not.

#3376 speng

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 17:56

Red Bull's Christian Horner: Lewis Hamilton exit weakens McLaren


#3377 maverick69

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 17:58

The big flaw in your arguement (besides the somewhat rose tinted interpretation of several races) is that youa re simply taking out the inconvieninet issue that happened and effectively ending the race there - whereas in the real world Hami still had to negotiate the race to its conclusion - anythign could still ahppen. Take away that gearbox failure tehre - but who is to say he woulndt of put it in teh wall the very next lap, or been hit by a backmarker or had a different mechanical failure etc etc etc - that is before your factor in other issues like flatspotting or wearing out his tyres and getting taken by a rival etc.

Anyone can play the woulda, shoulda coulda game but in the end it is meaningless.

Hami remains a gifted but flawed, much hyped 1 time world champion - whilst his rivals Vettel and Alonso consistantly battle it out for the championship .....like it or not.


So why, in your opinion, has Hamilton not been able to battle it out with Vettel and Alonso for this years WDC?


#3378 robefc

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 18:06

The big flaw in your arguement (besides the somewhat rose tinted interpretation of several races) is that youa re simply taking out the inconvieninet issue that happened and effectively ending the race there - whereas in the real world Hami still had to negotiate the race to its conclusion - anythign could still ahppen. Take away that gearbox failure tehre - but who is to say he woulndt of put it in teh wall the very next lap, or been hit by a backmarker or had a different mechanical failure etc etc etc - that is before your factor in other issues like flatspotting or wearing out his tyres and getting taken by a rival etc.

Anyone can play the woulda, shoulda coulda game but in the end it is meaningless.

Hami remains a gifted but flawed, much hyped 1 time world champion - whilst his rivals Vettel and Alonso consistantly battle it out for the championship .....like it or not.


That is of course correct.

It doesn't render the analysis meaningless though, it simply has to be understood in that context.

In races such as spain, singapore, abu dhabi and brazil Lewis was robbed off the opportunity to continue to race for the win from p1 through no fault of his own. People can make of that what they will, obviously, but I personally don't think Vettel has driven better than Lewis this season...Alonso I'm not so sure about, up until the last three races he was my driver of the season. Probably still is, it's perhaps unfair to judge him harshly for being out performed by Massa simply because it's his domination of Massa that has made that such a surprise.



#3379 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 18:13

Hami remains a gifted but flawed, much hyped 1 time world champion - whilst his rivals Vettel and Alonso consistantly battle it out for the championship .....like it or not.

The number of Championships has nothing to do with it. You wouldn't find many people suggesting Alonso is over hyped because he hasn't won a WDC in nearly 7 seasons. Hamilton has been near to the championship recently too so your argument is flawed before it even starts my friend.

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#3380 Peter Perfect

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 18:25

Red Bull's Christian Horner: Lewis Hamilton exit weakens McLaren

Well duh!

#3381 Gareth

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 19:48

Hami remains a gifted but flawed, much hyped 1 time world champion

I agree with the extract above, to an extent. I think he's gone a long way towards addressing those flaws this season. One swallow doesn't make a summer, but if he repeats his 2012 driving in 2013 I'll start to see the guy as the complete package.

#3382 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 19:51

I agree with the extract above, to an extent. I think he's gone a long way towards addressing those flaws this season. One swallow doesn't make a summer, but if he repeats his 2012 driving in 2013 I'll start to see the guy as the complete package.

That's the problem though. People are waiting for one mistake to call an end to it. I think Lewis has more than proved he is the complete package, I really don't know what else he has to do.

#3383 Rinehart

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 21:02

Red Bull's Christian Horner: Lewis Hamilton exit weakens McLaren


Lewis who?



#3384 PinkZepStones

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 21:03

Lewis who?


2008 World Drivers Champion mate.

#3385 Rinehart

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 21:11

If you disagree, make your own list.


You really should have read my post properly before going to such trouble to respond.
I only count mechanical issues and even then we don't know if the driver was complicit or even if he'd have otherwise finished the race.
Infinitely publishing your bent lists of points credits, is getting a bit tedious now.


#3386 TurboF1

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 22:05

You really should have read my post properly before going to such trouble to respond.
I only count mechanical issues and even then we don't know if the driver was complicit or even if he'd have otherwise finished the race.
Infinitely publishing your bent lists of points credits, is getting a bit tedious now.



Just as tedious as certain people infinitely hanging on to the 3 year points total. I didnt realize the championship points carried over from year to year. I thought they reset at the start of each year. I thought his teammate outscored him 66% of the time during their time together. Silly me. I never thought I'd see the day people celebrating a 33% success rate versus a 66% rate. How very curious.

Edited by TurboF1, 27 November 2012 - 22:06.


#3387 andrewf1

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 23:55

Lewis who?


watch out, we've got a bad ass over here :rolleyes:

#3388 andrewf1

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 00:06

Posted Image

Edited by andrewf1, 28 November 2012 - 00:07.


#3389 TurboF1

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 00:18

Lewis who?


Oh just that other McLaren driver that was sat next to The Holy Smooth One for the past 3 seasons. Y'know, the one that has more poles, and wins in the same car? The guy that finished ahead in the WDC standings 66% of the time. That guy.

#3390 Rinehart

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 00:18

Just as tedious as certain people infinitely hanging on to the 3 year points total.


Well, one is a fact the other is fiction. :wave:

#3391 TurboF1

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 00:19

Posted Image

:lol: :up:

#3392 TurboF1

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 00:23

Well, one is a fact the other is fiction. :wave:


You're right. It IS a fact that Lewis finished ahead in the WDC 66% of the time. It is a fact the points reset every year. When the FIA comes up with a 3 calender year Drivers Championship, I'll go by that too. Until then, we're stuck with the silly annual season they use now. :|

#3393 OO7

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:53

Probably still is, it's perhaps unfair to judge him harshly for being out performed by Massa simply because it's his domination of Massa that has made that such a surprise.

Alonso has performed brilliantly this season as has Lewis. A few weeks ago I said that Fernando's accomplishments in the F2012 were difficult to benchmark as Massa had been performing so poorly for a great proportion of the championship. In Korea(?) after qualification, Fernando was apoplectic with rage when Pat Fry dared to suggest that there was perhaps more time left in the car. In recent races we have seen Massa clearly out perform Alonso, but this has come a little too late for any meaningful analysis.

Like you I think it's a close call between Fernando and Lewis for driver of the season. Fernando may just edge it, but I'd need to look at the weekends in more detail to reach a firm conclusion I feel.

#3394 OO7

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:56

Lewis who?

Interestingly after 2011 Horner was saying he expected Jenson to be their main rival in 2012. After the first race or two Jenson had written off Fernando as a championship challenger, so it looks like everyone got it wrong.

#3395 BigBadBless

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:07

Funny how if Hamilton had continued after his collision with Hulkenberg and finished, say, P3, this debate would be much more one sided and several posters would be suspiciously quieter- and yet Hamilton being taken out by Hulk is a twist of fortune which has close to zero impact on their relative performance over 3 years, just the perception of it. Funny how these things work.

In poker we call it variance. Hamilton had the potential, had he got the rub of the green, to have beaten Button by a very large margin. He also had the potential, had more things gone against him, to have lost 2 seasons out of 3 to Button. However, in life, you only get to run 'simulations' a single time, and this is the outcome. Not too far away from the expected value, I'd suspect, though probably slightly more in Button's favour. I suspect if we were able to play the 3 years out 1000 times Hamilton would overcome Button well over 70% of the time, though that's just my opinion. In reality we'll never know.

#3396 akshay380

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:28

Can someone here answer why McLaren were ready to make Lewis Hamilton the most paid F1 driver on present grid when they obviously had the top class driver like Jenson Button? They for sure know Button outscored Lewis over three seasons together?

Edited by akshay380, 28 November 2012 - 08:22.


#3397 Rocket73

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:51

Just as tedious as certain people infinitely hanging on to the 3 year points total. I didnt realize the championship points carried over from year to year. I thought they reset at the start of each year. I thought his teammate outscored him 66% of the time during their time together. Silly me. I never thought I'd see the day people celebrating a 33% success rate versus a 66% rate. How very curious.


This points things really stings doesn't it.....

Sure the points dont add up over 3 years to any sort of title BUT when you have two drivers racing for the same team it is perfectly reasonable, in fact it's scientific :smoking: , to add total points to get an accurate as possible representation on how good each driver is at getting points in F1 races..

#3398 Rocket73

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:56

If you disagree, make your own list.


ANOTHER list?

#3399 OO7

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:23

ANOTHER list?

It doesn't have to be a list. I'm sure you could do one as a pie chart if you prefer.

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#3400 Peter Perfect

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:32

It doesn't have to be a list. I'm sure you could do one as a pie chart if you prefer.

Mmmm...pie.....