Jump to content


Photo

Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3870 replies to this topic

#3501 paulrobs

paulrobs
  • Member

  • 507 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:28

This thread is going to run nd run and run and run and run and run and run and run............

Oh dear.

I'm just looking forward to next year

Advertisement

#3502 andrewf1

andrewf1
  • Member

  • 514 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:35

[...] But so too can the super-sensitive, silky-smooth driver [...]


i've always heard this mentioned by....everyone, everywhere, that button is smooth and silk and satin and all of those adjectives. but i am indeed curious what this actually means and this is by no means mocking: can anyone explain in more technical terms what smooth and silky mean in car behaviour? not too much wheelspin? less kerb riding? more precise turn in?

thanks!

Our mutual friend Mark Hughes has touched upon this very thing:
My take on it is that Hamilton is great at pressing on in inter/wet conditions, where keeping good temperature in the tyres, having a sense for where the grip is, and coping with the snap oversteer is what it's all about. However, when it comes to slicks on a damp track, Button's hyper sensitivity to the cars microbehavior comes into its own, when it really is a case of who can tip toe around the track the best. It's all to do with how they sense grip, and feel the surface of the road. In full wet conditions with suitable tyres, Button is overly cautious and isn't using all the grip available to him as Hamilton does, but conversely, on slicks on a moist track Hamilton can tend to overdrive the car (e.g. lap 1, Spa, 2008).[/b]


also, i'm not quite sure i understand the interpretation of this: how is jenson able to find more grip on slicks on a damp track but not be able to find grip on wets/inters on a wet track?

#3503 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,188 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:21

Possibly, but I would imagine that was an issue that could be minimised with setup, maybe a little loss in pace but the races this year where Jenson was miles off the pace indicate that the tyres weren't working at all imo.

All the teams have talked about how small the operating window is for these tyres and Jenson has more than once alluded to this causing the difficulty in getting the car balanced. There's no doubt that all teams were having problems with, especially at the start of the year.

So, for me, the small operating window is the most likely culprit.


Jenson's view on an earlier conversation on this thread.

Button, who experienced an alarming slump in form at the start of the European season when he scored only seven points in six races, explained that struggles to heat up the Pirelli tyres had been his undoing for much of 2012.

"The tyres changing in terms of degradation is a good thing. I like it when there's reasonably high degradation and I like setting the car up around that tyre," he explained.

"Whereas with the tyres this year it's been a lot more tricky because it's been temperature - the temperature has been the issue - and for me, I don't know why, but the way I drive I really struggle to get the tyres up to temperature and that's been a big issue for me. Then they just don't work, you can't turn them on, and then you damage the tyre quicker so there's no consistency with it. So I really found it difficult in a lot of races this year.

"But next year with the new regs with the tyres it's going to work and I hope we're going to have more days like that one [pointing to a picture of his 2011 Brazilian GP podium finish]."


http://www.planetf1....portant-for-him

Edited by Lazy, 29 November 2012 - 14:53.


#3504 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,426 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:31

i'm not quite sure i understand the interpretation of this: how is jenson able to find more grip on slicks on a damp track but not be able to find grip on wets/inters on a wet track?


I have my own theory on this.

Drivers don't get to practice very much on wets and inters. This is partly because Pirelli don't bring enough of these tyres for a really wet weekend, but also because McLaren tend to be overly cautious about going out in wet conditions, in FPs or even testing.

So when drivers do get to use wets or inters, it's usually a kind of voyage of discovery, not only in finding out how slippery the track is, but also in terms of the tyre's behaviour.

Jenson being more naturally cautious than Lewis, he tends to approach it more tentatively, which leads to less heat in the tyres, so more problems.

Jenson seemed really good on the inters in Brazil, pulling away from Alonso when I was afraid Alonso would start to reel him in, so maybe he's finally got the hang of the Pirelli inters.

Edited by BillBald, 29 November 2012 - 14:36.


#3505 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,188 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:41

i've always heard this mentioned by....everyone, everywhere, that button is smooth and silk and satin and all of those adjectives. but i am indeed curious what this actually means and this is by no means mocking: can anyone explain in more technical terms what smooth and silky mean in car behaviour? not too much wheelspin? less kerb riding? more precise turn in?

thanks!


I'm not sure about a technical explanation but to use an extreme example to illustrate, it's like the difference between Motocross and Rallying to roadracing.

Off road you tend take the inside line direct to the apex, with a loose back end setup, brake late and hard, sling the back round, get the vehicle straight as fast as possible so as to able to apply maximum throttle as soon as possible.

In roadracing you would have a balanced setup, take a wide approach to the corner so as to maintain a higher velocity through the apex then gradually apply more power as the vehicle straightens out.

The 1st approach tends to involve harder braking and acceleration, more sliding and more correction input to the steering wheel.

The 2nd approach involves progressive braking and acceleration, less sliding and minimal steering input.

This is essentially the difference in the approaches of Lewis and Jenson although the differences are obviously a lot more subtle than that.

#3506 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,891 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:08

I wasn't doing that at all. I'm sure Button beating him did get inside his head along with a dominant Red Bull that was running away with the championship. I think one thing is for certain its made Hamilton a stronger contender as a result. This season he's moved on and got his head sorted. Jenson has had a poor season in comparison and the team let downs have brought them a lot closer together in the points than maybe they deserved IMO. Hamilton walks out of McLaren as the victor in a closely fought fight with his teammate. It may have been closer than he would have liked, but Jenson has kept him honest. I'm sad to see the end of the partnership as its been fun to watch by both sets of fans no doubt.


I like your posts so I'm definitely not wishing to cause a ruck here, but I was replying to a post about who Hamilton considered his main rival and not anything to do with if his points were fair or not. To me its completely obvious that they were both very focused on beating each other, and to imply one was only concerned with "bigger issues" has a sort of disingenuous edge to it. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure as Hamilton clung to the WDC dream at say Singapore, he was looking at Alonso's points, or in Austin he was racing Vettel on track. No dispute there. But overall, teammates are renowned for holding the philosphy that the first priority is to beat your teammate (the only driver in the same car) and I am certain that was the case with these two. Agree?

#3507 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,891 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:10

also, i'm not quite sure i understand the interpretation of this: how is jenson able to find more grip on slicks on a damp track but not be able to find grip on wets/inters on a wet track?


tyre temp, grip, traction, movement of the blocks (on the inters), etc, etc.

#3508 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,018 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 29 November 2012 - 16:27

I'm not sure about a technical explanation but to use an extreme example to illustrate, it's like the difference between Motocross and Rallying to roadracing.


Made sense to me :)

#3509 andrewf1

andrewf1
  • Member

  • 514 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 29 November 2012 - 16:52

The 1st approach tends to involve harder braking and acceleration, more sliding and more correction input to the steering wheel.

The 2nd approach involves progressive braking and acceleration, less sliding and minimal steering input.

This is essentially the difference in the approaches of Lewis and Jenson although the differences are obviously a lot more subtle than that.


Thanks for that, it correlates well with tire heating and tire wear. Lewis has learned to nurse his tires probably by observing Jenson and that has also made them very close in race pace terms. In qualifying however, Hamilton's approach enables him warmer tires and more pace.

#3510 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,274 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 29 November 2012 - 16:54

Our mutual friend Mark Hughes has touched upon this very thing:



My take on it is that Hamilton is great at pressing on in inter/wet conditions, where keeping good temperature in the tyres, having a sense for where the grip is, and coping with the snap oversteer is what it's all about. However, when it comes to slicks on a damp track, Button's hyper sensitivity to the cars microbehavior comes into its own, when it really is a case of who can tip toe around the track the best. It's all to do with how they sense grip, and feel the surface of the road. In full wet conditions with suitable tyres, Button is overly cautious and isn't using all the grip available to him as Hamilton does, but conversely, on slicks on a moist track Hamilton can tend to overdrive the car (e.g. lap 1, Spa, 2008).


I dont know enough to know if I agree with "our mutual friend" ( :lol: ) ....but on this occasion his analysis seems logical.

What ever the answer actually is... its an interesting question... shame they are not going to be in the same car anymore.... the two best wet weather drivers in F1, for my money.



#3511 techspeed

techspeed
  • Member

  • 372 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:42

Lewis has spent the last three years racing Vettel and Alonso, not Button. Button has been racing Lewis.

Well to be honest last weekend Lewis was busy racing Button and Hulkenberg, Vettel and Alonso were nowhere to be seen at the front. :lol:

#3512 gricey1981

gricey1981
  • Member

  • 1,176 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 29 November 2012 - 22:31

Thread needs to be closed now surely.

Lewis won this year quite convincingly.

Lewis wins over there time together too but not by a great deal. JB did very well. 2011 along with 2004 must be his best season to date. its a shame his best season coincides with someone else having an absolutely dominating car.

JB is a great driver with qualifying issues - is a demon in changeable conditions.

Hamilton is faster but has worse luck



#3513 whitevisor

whitevisor
  • Member

  • 267 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 30 November 2012 - 00:16

Button came close on points because he has usually been clear of "dangerous" situations and didn't retire from high scoring positions.
All be it, Button's stock has raised a teeny bit.

Hamilton has beat button on qualifying, has won out in races they both finished and has been more consistent over the three years - especially this year. Hamilton's stock has raised even higher.

As a Hamilton fan I am not too concerned with points aggregates unless it is in a genuine championship fight, like 2012 and 2010. I think the act of counting points over three years is pretty weak as I heave never head it done before in all my years of F1 until now. I think Hamilton fans are racers, and shoving points counted over three years in our faces has no real effect on our view of how close Button came to Hamilton. He was close on paper but not close on the track. To "us" the verdict is on the clock and on the track

Hamilton is in a different class of driver - whether that is higher or lower or the same, is up to the viewer.





#3514 marsh1687

marsh1687
  • New Member

  • 1 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:44

Thread needs to be closed now surely.

Lewis won this year quite convincingly.

Lewis wins over there time together too but not by a great deal. JB did very well. 2011 along with 2004 must be his best season to date. its a shame his best season coincides with someone else having an absolutely dominating car.

JB is a great driver with qualifying issues - is a demon in changeable conditions.

Hamilton is faster but has worse luck


I have to admit I'm a bit surprised at the reaction to the final stats between LH and JB provided by James Allen.

I'm a massive Hamilton fan but wasn't at all surprised or outraged by the final results as some have been.

I'm a fan of Hamilton because of what he does on the track in qualy and in the race not where he finishes.

One of my favourite races I have ever seen was at Monza 2009 which on the surface was a disaster because he started on pole and ended up putting it into the wall on the last/second to last lap at the second lezmo when he was guaranteed 3rd and on the podium having been well ahead of Raikkonen in fourth place. He had just set the fastest first sector chasing ironically Jenson in 2nd about a second or so ahead but went too far on the curb on the xit and just lost it. There was no way he would have got second that day as Rubens and Jenson were so good in that Brawn car but the fact that he put it all on the line anyway at the end trying to get second and not settling for third made me really sit up and notice as a then casual racing fan. I loved the fact that he didn't seem bothered about it afterwards nor was Martin Whitmarsh. It is the classic McLaren 'We race to win, don't care who finishes second' talk recently raised by Ron Dennis.

I wasn't surprised or outraged at all by these results because they didn't alter what I felt when watching the races unfold as I did. I think Jenson is a brilliant driver and deserved all the results he has at Mclaren. They both have different strengths and weaknesses but judging which is the overall winner in this 3 year contest by looking at the stats does not seem a fair reflection on either of them based on the issues both of them have had. I'm a massive Hamilton fan because of what he does on the track rather than the final result, although I know this is important as well.

I'm actually really looking forward to these upcoming Mercedes years as whislt I would like Lewis to win more races and titles in his career, I also really want to see him just let loose and race every single time to win rather than just think about settling for the points. Yes it can be a mistake when going for the title and may even mean Rosberg beats him in the points but for me I wouldn't change him at all. 'Race to win, don't care who finishes second' mentality is the best thing McLaren bestowed upon that guy in my opinion.

First time posting here but have followed this thread for while and wanted to contribute before it ends for good.

#3515 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 5,026 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:43

First time posting here but have followed this thread for while and wanted to contribute before it ends for good.


:wave: Nice post !



#3516 Ricardo F1

Ricardo F1
  • Member

  • 38,402 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:25

Oh please, enough of the lame put downs!

Are you really wanting us to believe that during Hamiltons 10 wins, he was racing against Alonso and Vettel but during Buttons 8 wins he was racing Lewis.

Tell us more... tell us how Lewis was racing Alonso not Button in Brazil or Vettel not Button in Australia?

Perhaps you might wish to agree with me that they are racing against all competitors, and they race simply whatever car is in closest proximity to them on the day. Maybe you'll also agree that Hamilton is more bothered that Jenson beat him in 2011 than Vettel, for instance. Maybe you'll agree that he'd have probably preferred Alonso to win the title this year, than Jenson in the same car. Or maybe you know differently?

I don't think he was that bothered by 2011, as I said, he was racing Vettel all season long and he made quite a few cockups trying to push too hard in doing so and completely lost the plot. For Button to beat Lewis is a big thing, look at the qualifying stats - pretty much he starts behind Lewis therefore beating him is significant. Lewis would go into any given weekend expecting to outqualify Button and to race whomever is alongside him.

Of course you're racing whoever is around you at any given moment, of that I agree.


#3517 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 2,863 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:57

I am pondering about one thing. Much is made of Hamilton's unluck with an unreliable car and botched pitstops. Which means that the people in the factory/garage were unable to do their job properly. But maybe Button's mid-season setup issues were also down to the team? Because like driver doesn't check the reliability of components (Hamilton's problem), then driver also physically doesn't adjust the car with tools (for setup). There are mechanics for that. And maybe the team was unable to understand Jenson's feedback and setup the car properly.

This is the only argument that can help Button here. Otherwise we just go on and on, how Hamilton beat Button by 100 points by an "adjusted scorecard". But maybe the team was incompetent in both sides of the garage, just the incompetence became evident in different ways. And both suffered badly, but in DIFFERENT ways. During his 12-year-stint Button has never been as crap as he was mid-season. He suddenly didn't forget driving. Likewise Hamilton's car has never been as unreliable as it was at the end of 2012. He suddenly didn't forget, how to nurse the car.

#3518 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,619 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:58

When the pairing started, I gave Lewis around 2/3 to beat Jenson over the season, and I think I was correct in my assumptions. Due to Lewis having a bit more bad luck in 2012. - total point tally is a bit weird, but Lewis did beat Jenson in 2 out of 3 seasons so I guess I should have made some bet :)

I am really sad that McLaren hasn't won a constructors title with this driver pairing as I believe it was strongest pairing on grid for the past 3 seasons.

Edited by velgajski1, 30 November 2012 - 07:59.


#3519 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,274 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:59

I have to admit I'm a bit surprised at the reaction to the final stats between LH and JB provided by James Allen.

I'm a massive Hamilton fan but wasn't at all surprised or outraged by the final results as some have been.

I'm a fan of Hamilton because of what he does on the track in qualy and in the race not where he finishes.

One of my favourite races I have ever seen was at Monza 2009 which on the surface was a disaster because he started on pole and ended up putting it into the wall on the last/second to last lap at the second lezmo when he was guaranteed 3rd and on the podium having been well ahead of Raikkonen in fourth place. He had just set the fastest first sector chasing ironically Jenson in 2nd about a second or so ahead but went too far on the curb on the xit and just lost it. There was no way he would have got second that day as Rubens and Jenson were so good in that Brawn car but the fact that he put it all on the line anyway at the end trying to get second and not settling for third made me really sit up and notice as a then casual racing fan. I loved the fact that he didn't seem bothered about it afterwards nor was Martin Whitmarsh. It is the classic McLaren 'We race to win, don't care who finishes second' talk recently raised by Ron Dennis.


I wasn't surprised or outraged at all by these results because they didn't alter what I felt when watching the races unfold as I did. I think Jenson is a brilliant driver and deserved all the results he has at Mclaren. They both have different strengths and weaknesses but judging which is the overall winner in this 3 year contest by looking at the stats does not seem a fair reflection on either of them based on the issues both of them have had. I'm a massive Hamilton fan because of what he does on the track rather than the final result, although I know this is important as well.

I'm actually really looking forward to these upcoming Mercedes years as whislt I would like Lewis to win more races and titles in his career, I also really want to see him just let loose and race every single time to win rather than just think about settling for the points. Yes it can be a mistake when going for the title and may even mean Rosberg beats him in the points but for me I wouldn't change him at all. 'Race to win, don't care who finishes second' mentality is the best thing McLaren bestowed upon that guy in my opinion.

First time posting here but have followed this thread for while and wanted to contribute before it ends for good.


You Sir, are a true LH fan.

That is my favourite LH race .... a completely futile exercise undertaken in vain and ending in failure ... but what an effort... according to Macca he beat their simulation of what was possible from a one stopper by 7 seconds :eek:

Only one quibble, he didnt make an error IMO - all the vids showed him doing pretty much the same thing on the lap when he crashed as on the previous lap... the car was just so much on the edge that when he attepted to repeat the previous lap there was just very very marginally not enough grip. I remember there was a lot of analysis at the time and no one could find an error.



Advertisement

#3520 tifosiMac

tifosiMac
  • Member

  • 6,560 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:05

Hamilton v Button stats compared:

Qualifying
Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Races
Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25
Points finishes: Hamilton 45 / Button 47
DNFs: Hamilton 13 / Button 8
Best race result (inc DNFs): Hamilton 32 / Button 26
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

Championship
Overall points: Hamilton 657 / Button 672
Seasons finished higher in standings: Hamilton 2 / Button 1
Highest championship placing: Hamilton 4th (2010, 2012) / Button 2nd (2011)

I think this list compilled by James Allen shows how close they were over 3 years when the stats are analysed. An interesting stat for me is how they compared when both cars were on the track in a two car finish, mechanical failures aside.

http://www.jamesalle...ord-at-mclaren/

#3521 Obi Offiah

Obi Offiah
  • Member

  • 8,399 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:07

You Sir, are a true LH fan.

That is my favourite LH race .... a completely futile exercise undertaken in vain and ending in failure ... but what an effort... according to Macca he beat their simulation of what was possible from a one stopper by 7 seconds :eek:

Only one quibble, he didnt make an error IMO - all the vids showed him doing pretty much the same thing on the lap when he crashed as on the previous lap... the car was just so much on the edge that when he attepted to repeat the previous lap there was just very very marginally not enough grip. I remember there was a lot of analysis at the time and no one could find an error.

There may be a lot more of that in 2013, hopefully not the crashes of course.

#3522 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:05

Well over the 3 years they did together my opinion of Jense went up, from where it was before. I had him around Webber standard at the end of 2009 and now he's around Kimi, I'd say. 4th or 5th best.

I do rate Lewis quite a bit higher though. I think he suffered a lot losing Prew and getting Latham instead. No coincidence Latham disappeared in the end IMO, but it was Whitmarsh's Jenson-love that screwed that up so AL got 2010 off to such a bad start for Lewis and lucky start for Jense, and that coloured both their relationships with the team. I think it's only late this year that McLaren have accepted the difference between them.


So now it's a new era for both of them anyway. No more of that equality BS for Jenson, and back to Norby for Lewis with, hopefully, more say in things like his RE.

I think they'll be close next year....

#3523 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,335 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:47

Well over the 3 years they did together my opinion of Jense went up, from where it was before. I had him around Webber standard at the end of 2009 and now he's around Kimi, I'd say. 4th or 5th best.

I do rate Lewis quite a bit higher though. I think he suffered a lot losing Prew and getting Latham instead. No coincidence Latham disappeared in the end IMO, but it was Whitmarsh's Jenson-love that screwed that up so AL got 2010 off to such a bad start for Lewis and lucky start for Jense, and that coloured both their relationships with the team. I think it's only late this year that McLaren have accepted the difference between them.


So now it's a new era for both of them anyway. No more of that equality BS for Jenson, and back to Norby for Lewis with, hopefully, more say in things like his RE.

I think they'll be close next year....


The whole Latham thing is very interesting, and tells a huge story in itself.

Hamilton certainly got taken back a peg when Button arrived, in an attempt to give everyone a fresh/level start. It worked out in Buttons huge favour unfortunately, but thats life.

#3524 speng

speng
  • Member

  • 1,299 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 30 November 2012 - 17:23

Well over the 3 years they did together my opinion of Jense went up, from where it was before. I had him around Webber standard at the end of 2009 and now he's around Kimi, I'd say. 4th or 5th best.

I do rate Lewis quite a bit higher though. I think he suffered a lot losing Prew and getting Latham instead. No coincidence Latham disappeared in the end IMO, but it was Whitmarsh's Jenson-love that screwed that up so AL got 2010 off to such a bad start for Lewis and lucky start for Jense, and that coloured both their relationships with the team. I think it's only late this year that McLaren have accepted the difference between them.


So now it's a new era for both of them anyway. No more of that equality BS for Jenson, and back to Norby for Lewis with, hopefully, more say in things like his RE.

I think they'll be close next year....

I too rate Hamilton a fair higher. The drivers who are really do not have much of a proformance between them is Hamilton and Alonso, those are the best in F1 at the moment.

#3525 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,849 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 30 November 2012 - 21:48

..
I do rate Lewis quite a bit higher though. I think he suffered a lot losing Prew and getting Latham instead. No coincidence Latham disappeared in the end IMO, but it was Whitmarsh's Jenson-love that screwed that up so AL got 2010 off to such a bad start for Lewis and lucky start for Jense, and that coloured both their relationships with the team. I think it's only late this year that McLaren have accepted the difference between them.
...



The whole Latham thing is very interesting, and tells a huge story in itself.
...


:confused: Has he gone?

#3526 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 30 November 2012 - 23:18

:confused: Has he gone?

Well Mark Temple stayed on as Lewis' RE to the end. Andy Latham will reappear next year I can only suppose, in one role or another.

#3527 whitevisor

whitevisor
  • Member

  • 267 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:38

Come on, it proved that Lewis made the wrong decision and ---- he should have been quicker in S2 with the barndoor rear wing. He wasn't.


I can't believe people haven't figured out that Hamilton always says its his decision even when it wasn't.
That Twitter gate story is very a deep one. It's a real mystery why the media overlooked it. Just think about it. If Hamilton chose the wing by himself, why did he rant on about it on Twitter? Why did he show DETAILED Telemetry after that? - Dumb old "mushy brain" Hamilton showing detailed telemetry?! You see, even though Hamilton took the blame as he does 95% of the time, you have to be wise to realize that this case was a poor engineering decision, Hamilton was fuming after it, news spread up the ranks and there were repercussions. Notice Whitmarsh's tone after the mistake...

I am not going going into this any further though because of obvious reasons.

#3528 tkulla

tkulla
  • Member

  • 3,138 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:10

I too rate Hamilton a fair higher. The drivers who are really do not have much of a proformance between them is Hamilton and Alonso, those are the best in F1 at the moment.


Rating Hamilton above Vettel right now is just silly. It's denial plain and simple.



#3529 senna da silva

senna da silva
  • Member

  • 4,431 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:34

I can't believe people haven't figured out that Hamilton always says its his decision even when it wasn't.
That Twitter gate story is very a deep one. It's a real mystery why the media overlooked it. Just think about it. If Hamilton chose the wing by himself, why did he rant on about it on Twitter? Why did he show DETAILED Telemetry after that? - Dumb old "mushy brain" Hamilton showing detailed telemetry?! You see, even though Hamilton took the blame as he does 95% of the time, you have to be wise to realize that this case was a poor engineering decision, Hamilton was fuming after it, news spread up the ranks and there were repercussions. Notice Whitmarsh's tone after the mistake...

I am not going going into this any further though because of obvious reasons.


:up:

#3530 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,274 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:19

Rating Hamilton above Vettel right now is just silly. It's denial plain and simple.


depends what you are rating....

#3531 stanga

stanga
  • Member

  • 1,124 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:24

Well Mark Temple stayed on as Lewis' RE to the end. Andy Latham will reappear next year I can only suppose, in one role or another.


I don't necessarily think it could anything other than a new father deciding he wants to be more UK based.

#3532 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:32

Rating Hamilton above Vettel right now is just silly. It's denial plain and simple.

Vettel had a bad period in 2012, Hamilton didn't. Sebi very nearly tossed away his wdc in Austin with his nasty little jink as Lewis passed, and again in Brazil with idiotically claiming the T4 apex blind with 18 cars in a pack behind him.

You would only claim Vettel is as good if you really cannot allow for the difference a car and team make. Not that Sebi isn't extremely good, but there's more to it than points,

#3533 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:41

I don't necessarily think it could anything other than a new father deciding he wants to be more UK based.

That could only be the case if Latham's commitment was a good deal less than the other top RE's. Would Stella or Rocky have disappeared for a third of the season? I don't think so. But I reckon things went better with Temple and that's why he was kept.

#3534 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,335 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:55

Rating Hamilton above Vettel right now is just silly. It's denial plain and simple.


Because Vettel has the best team?

#3535 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,335 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:59

I can't believe people haven't figured out that Hamilton always says its his decision even when it wasn't.
That Twitter gate story is very a deep one. It's a real mystery why the media overlooked it. Just think about it. If Hamilton chose the wing by himself, why did he rant on about it on Twitter? Why did he show DETAILED Telemetry after that? - Dumb old "mushy brain" Hamilton showing detailed telemetry?! You see, even though Hamilton took the blame as he does 95% of the time, you have to be wise to realize that this case was a poor engineering decision, Hamilton was fuming after it, news spread up the ranks and there were repercussions. Notice Whitmarsh's tone after the mistake...

I am not going going into this any further though because of obvious reasons.


Just look at the fallout from that. If it was Hamilton's decision it wouldn't have started him leaving. Hamilton left McLaren, that is an extraordinary event, therefore is must have taken an extraordinary circumstance to prompt that change.

I remember up until that point he talked about McLaren as his home and the decision is easy, then it changed to a cold 'Thats what we're working on' without a smile.

And that's another thing complete ignored here; Hamilton takes the blame for everything, whereas Button blames external things far, far more often.

EDIT: on phone so sorry for grammar/spelling mistakes.

Edited by thesham01, 01 December 2012 - 09:05.


#3536 Juggles

Juggles
  • Member

  • 896 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:03

Rating Hamilton above Vettel right now is just silly. It's denial plain and simple.


Rating Hamilton above Vettel after 2011 would have been silly. Doing so after 2012? Not at all. Vettel was far scrappier on track than Hamilton this season. He deserved to win the title because he was very good in lots of races but, in the end, the difference between them was the professionalism of their respective teams.

#3537 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:21

Rating Hamilton above Vettel right now is just silly. It's denial plain and simple.


Denial? I think most knowledgeable fans would recognise that Hamilton has been close to flawless this year, and far more consistent than Vettel in qualifying. It's not like it's some fanboy fantasy to rate him higher.

#3538 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,849 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:29

That could only be the case if Latham's commitment was a good deal less than the other top RE's. Would Stella or Rocky have disappeared for a third of the season? I don't think so. But I reckon things went better with Temple and that's why he was kept.

Speaking personally I moved jobs to one closer to home when my daughter was born, and it's certainly not unusual. It wouldn't surprise me if Andy Latham had decided to do the same, but we're all just speculating.

#3539 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:05

Speaking personally I moved jobs to one closer to home when my daughter was born, and it's certainly not unusual. It wouldn't surprise me if Andy Latham had decided to do the same, but we're all just speculating.

Well it's not speculating that he wasn't there. So if spending several months with his child was more important to him than RE-ing Lewis then that tells a pretty similar story to any other scenario. It's F1, and a key job in it.

And we could hear on the radio that it was working better with Temple, couldn't we? So I do think the RE's played a key role in the JB vs LH saga.

Just for starters both Jenson's victories early in 2010, which had such a powerful effect on his status in the team, were directly attributable to Latham and his role in the tyre/weather calls in Oz and China, after all.

Advertisement

#3540 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,849 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:29

Well it's not speculating that he wasn't there. So if spending several months with his child was more important to him than RE-ing Lewis then that tells a pretty similar story to any other scenario. It's F1, and a key job in it.

Sorry, I thought the 2 'speculations' were he wasn't at the last few races because:

1. He wanted to spend more time at home with his new family
2. He was deemed to be not up to scratch to be Hamiltons RE

The first would be his choice (as far as the team were concerned he was doing a cracking job), while the second the teams (he wasn't doing a cracking job)

And we could hear on the radio that it was working better with Temple, couldn't we? So I do think the RE's played a key role in the JB vs LH saga.

Just for starters both Jenson's victories early in 2010, which had such a powerful effect on his status in the team, were directly attributable to Latham and his role in the tyre/weather calls in Oz and China, after all.

I quite agree. It's a team sport and strategy/set-up is decided on in each race team on either side of the garage. In F1 no man is an island.

#3541 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:44

Sorry, I thought the 2 'speculations' were he wasn't at the last few races because:

1. He wanted to spend more time at home with his new family
2. He was deemed to be not up to scratch to be Hamiltons RE

The first would be his choice (as far as the team were concerned he was doing a cracking job), while the second the teams (he wasn't doing a cracking job)

What I meant was that being fully committed and doing a cracking job are pretty close to the same thing. So if AL wanted and was allowed to go home for 1/3 of the season that's not really too different from being sent home, in terms of the quality of the RE-ing of the car. I do think that if Temple hadn't been at least as good Latham would have been recalled after a week or two at most. The other top RE's wouldn't just disappear off like that, so it tells a story I reckon even if we lack some details.

#3542 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,849 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:04

What I meant was that being fully committed and doing a cracking job are pretty close to the same thing. So if AL wanted and was allowed to go home for 1/3 of the season that's not really too different from being sent home, in terms of the quality of the RE-ing of the car. I do think that if Temple hadn't been at least as good Latham would have been recalled after a week or two at most. The other top RE's wouldn't just disappear off like that, so it tells a story I reckon even if we lack some details.

I don't see any contradiction between being fully committed to your job while you're there but choosing family over work when forced to make a decision to be honest. I do agree that if Temple had been doing a bad job he would've been moved aside, but I'm sure there are more decent RE's at McLaren so it wouldn't have necessarily meant Latham would've had to be recalled. I am sure that Phil Prew would've been paying extra special attention to Hamiltons race team while Temple was there if nothing other than to make sure things were going smoothly.

#3543 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,335 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:20

I don't see any contradiction between being fully committed to your job while you're there but choosing family over work when forced to make a decision to be honest. I do agree that if Temple had been doing a bad job he would've been moved aside, but I'm sure there are more decent RE's at McLaren so it wouldn't have necessarily meant Latham would've had to be recalled. I am sure that Phil Prew would've been paying extra special attention to Hamiltons race team while Temple was there if nothing other than to make sure things were going smoothly.



There is a difference though between a job we would have, and the RE for Lewis Hamilton when he is in a WDC fight. And a man as surely ambitious and hardworking as AL must be to even get the Hamilton job, would surely finish the job he started, then retire at the end of the season to spend time with family.

I cannot see him just quitting like that just for the family.

#3544 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,335 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:20

I don't see any contradiction between being fully committed to your job while you're there but choosing family over work when forced to make a decision to be honest. I do agree that if Temple had been doing a bad job he would've been moved aside, but I'm sure there are more decent RE's at McLaren so it wouldn't have necessarily meant Latham would've had to be recalled. I am sure that Phil Prew would've been paying extra special attention to Hamiltons race team while Temple was there if nothing other than to make sure things were going smoothly.



There is a difference though between a job we would have, and the RE for Lewis Hamilton when he is in a WDC fight. And a man as surely ambitious and hardworking as AL must be to even get the Hamilton job, would surely finish the job he started, then retire at the end of the season to spend time with family.

I cannot see him just quitting like that just for the family.

#3545 stanga

stanga
  • Member

  • 1,124 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:22

What I meant was that being fully committed and doing a cracking job are pretty close to the same thing. So if AL wanted and was allowed to go home for 1/3 of the season that's not really too different from being sent home, in terms of the quality of the RE-ing of the car. I do think that if Temple hadn't been at least as good Latham would have been recalled after a week or two at most. The other top RE's wouldn't just disappear off like that, so it tells a story I reckon even if we lack some details.


Frankly, we don't know the circumstances surrounding the birth or the child or anything, so to say with such certainty 'no other top RE would behave like that' is pretty wild speculation. It doesn't tell a story at all, as we are lacking just about all the facts.

Edited by stanga, 01 December 2012 - 11:23.


#3546 thesham01

thesham01
  • Member

  • 1,335 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:29

Frankly, we don't know the circumstances surrounding the birth or the child or anything, so to say with such certainty 'no other top RE would behave like that' is pretty wild speculation. It doesn't tell a story at all, as we are lacking just about all the facts.


We are lacking hard facts, but we can infer things, as my post above has. Now you may not agree with it, but it is very suspicious don't you think?

#3547 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,849 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:08

There is a difference though between a job we would have, and the RE for Lewis Hamilton when he is in a WDC fight. And a man as surely ambitious and hardworking as AL must be to even get the Hamilton job, would surely finish the job he started, then retire at the end of the season to spend time with family.

I cannot see him just quitting like that just for the family.

Everyone views the work-life balance differently. And obviously we do. Maybe Andy Latham does too?

#3548 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,274 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:13

Everyone views the work-life balance differently. And obviously we do. Maybe Andy Latham does too?


If you want a "good" work/life balance you dont become an F1 race engineer...

#3549 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,849 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:35

If you want a "good" work/life balance you dont become an F1 race engineer...

Maybe he doesn't want to be one anymore? My point being that just because he didn't come back straight away doesn't prove that McLaren wanted to drop him because of poor performance. As another poster said, we just don't have enough information.

#3550 techspeed

techspeed
  • Member

  • 372 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:39

What I meant was that being fully committed and doing a cracking job are pretty close to the same thing. So if AL wanted and was allowed to go home for 1/3 of the season that's not really too different from being sent home, in terms of the quality of the RE-ing of the car. I do think that if Temple hadn't been at least as good Latham would have been recalled after a week or two at most. The other top RE's wouldn't just disappear off like that, so it tells a story I reckon even if we lack some details.

In the UK a father is entitled by law to two weeks paid parental leave. There is nothing a company can do to prevent this if the employee wants to take the time off. The employee can then take up to 26 weeks unpaid leave as well, again the company can't prevent it and can't force the employee come back to work.

Any decent business that involves their employees spending so much travelling around the world would want to do the decent thing and swap roles so the new father can spend time at home, so even if he comes back to work he is kept at the factory so he can still look after his new baby. McLaren obviously rate their employees highly enough to do what's best rather than putting the business first.

After the birth of your first child, would you then be happy straight after to get on a plane to the other side of the world and not see your newborn child for the first few weeks. Look at Jake Humphrey, he has quit presenting F1 because his wife is expecting his first child and he doesn't want to be spending so much time away from home next year.

Edited by techspeed, 01 December 2012 - 12:47.