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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#3651 speng

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:15

Yep Button is sitting pretty for 2013 :up:
Made McLaren extend his contract early and sees Hammy go for midfield pastures

If the car is as good as this year and without tyre gremlins, he has another shot at WDC

if the car is good, if Button is good (which is the bigger gamble) maybe he will say again "Welcome to 2009"

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#3652 thesham01

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:24

Yep Button is sitting pretty for 2013 :up:
Made McLaren extend his contract early and sees Hammy go for midfield pastures

If the car is as good as this year and without tyre gremlins, he has another shot at WDC


Unless McLaren build a car a second faster than the rest for at least a third of the season, he's not going to win the WDC.

McLaren know this, which is why they offered Hamilton more than any other driver.

#3653 dave12

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:30

Unless McLaren build a car a second faster than the rest for at least a third of the season, he's not going to win the WDC.

McLaren know this, which is why they offered Hamilton more than any other driver.

1 second lol! Jenson is about .2 off Lewis' pace does that make him slow two?

#3654 thesham01

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:35

1 second lol! Jenson is about .2 off Lewis' pace does that make him slow two?


Button is 2-3 tenths slower than Hamilton yes, but Hamilton won't be the only man at the front next year.

Button will have to compete against Vettel and Alonso as well.

#3655 ayali

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:36

Unless McLaren build a car a second faster than the rest for at least a third of the season, he's not going to win the WDC.

Dunno about that,
I just said he's sitting pretty, well established team and team leader in 2013
His teammate ran off to a midfield outfit for more $$$
If McLaren deliver in 2013 JB might be the guy to drive it home :)

#3656 dave12

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:40

Button is 2-3 tenths slower than Hamilton yes, but Hamilton won't be the only man at the front next year.

Button will have to compete against Vettel and Alonso as well.

Right! Still doesn't mean he needs a second though does it?

#3657 thesham01

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:46

Right! Still doesn't mean he needs a second though does it?


He will need between 0.5 and 1 second for 5-7 races if he is to win the WDC. 0.5 is cutting it tight, 1 second is guaranteeing a win.

#3658 speng

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:47

1 second lol! Jenson is about .2 off Lewis' pace does that make him slow two?

Most times he was not able to get the most out of this year's car.

#3659 dave12

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:50

He will need between 0.5 and 1 second for 5-7 races if he is to win the WDC. 0.5 is cutting it tight, 1 second is guaranteeing a win.

Right so if Jenson is about .2 off Lewis' pace ( the fast's man in F1 ) how does he need to find .5 of a second? Surely that should be the car?

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#3660 dave12

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:52

Most times he was not able to get the most out of this year's car.

So what! we are not talking about this year.

#3661 thesham01

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:57

Right so if Jenson is about .2 off Lewis' pace ( the fast's man in F1 ) how does he need to find .5 of a second? Surely that should be the car?


Button struggles with setup, therefore even if the car was 1 second faster, he may only extract .5 seconds from it. Meaning Hamilton et al would be within a couple of tenths, and given McLarens strategy ineptitude, that is leaving it very close.

Fact is, if the cars are close next year Button does not have what it takes to make the difference.

#3662 dave12

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 00:01

Button struggles with setup, therefore even if the car was 1 second faster, he may only extract .5 seconds from it. Meaning Hamilton et al would be within a couple of tenths, and given McLarens strategy ineptitude, that is leaving it very close.

Fact is, if the cars are close next year Button does not have what it takes to make the difference.

Facts can be proved. So why don't you?

The fact is the Brawn was never 1 second faster than any other car! So you saying that Jenson needs 1 second is utter hogs wash and you know it.

#3663 Rinehart

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:06

Unless McLaren build a car a second faster than the rest for at least a third of the season, he's not going to win the WDC.


I really admire the qualities of graciousness in defeat. Just sayin'... (and Hamiltons not even lost per se).

#3664 MightyMoose

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 14:26

Closed for a tidy up..... may take some time.

And re-opened in due course.

Please try to respect each other & the rules of this forum, it really is quite childish how so many times posts seem only intent on putting each driver or each other down, sampling select parts of posts to quote and use to further your agenda.

The season is over, and it seems to me many of you are actually in agreement over the relative merits of each driver. Perhaps those whose views are so widely varying from the norm here could do with taking a step back and seeking a reality check.


#3665 Exb

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 17:48

He may not have won the autosport award however Lewis has won a BRDC award today.

#3666 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 23:10

The topic of Jenson winning the Autosport award now has it's own topic here; http://forums.autosp...howtopic=178622

It is nothing to do with assessing the relative performance of the drivers over the season, which is the purpose of this thread. Indeed, there are other British drivers who were eligible, and not just Lewis Hamilton.

Please therefore continue your discussion of the award in the appropriate thread.

#3667 speng

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 00:47

On a separate note, this "oh well, the combined points total indicates...." argument is a bit tiresome. If everyone followed that logic there would be no championship, just a rolling total where no-one ever would be voted champion. It just doesn't work and it's a pathetic argument, in my opinion. Every single sport I can think of works over a season, and starts afresh the next. F1 is no different.

2 - 1 : Hamilton.



#3668 Ricardo F1

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:43

I still say

Hamilton 2-0 Button
Hamilton 0 - -1 Hamilton

2011 he lost against himself.

#3669 Rocket73

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:59

I still say

Hamilton 2-0 Button
Hamilton 0 - -1 Hamilton

2011 he lost against himself.


wow that makes perfect sense... :lol:

i havnt enjoyed this thread this much since it started,,,and that is saying something..

#3670 Juggles

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:33

I still say

Hamilton 2-0 Button
Hamilton 0 - -1 Hamilton

2011 he lost against himself.


That's not fair on Button, he was fast and consistent in 2011 and totally deserved to finish the season ahead of Hamilton. 2-1 is both the actual and just scoreline.

#3671 mclara

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:45

That's not fair on Button, he was fast and consistent in 2011 and totally deserved to finish the season ahead of Hamilton. 2-1 is both the actual and just scoreline.


Totally agree. However Button was lucky to finish only 2 points behind Hamilton this year. Hamilton was not that lucky last year.

#3672 Rinehart

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:04

I still say

Hamilton 2-0 Button
Hamilton 0 - -1 Hamilton

2011 he lost against himself.



If it had been the other way around, you'd have said 2010 doesn't count because Lewis was new to Jensons team. Jenson crumbled in 2011 because he was smashed by Lewis and 2012 doesn't count because the team built a car that didn't suit him and then took him down a set up cul-de-sac.

:drunk:

#3673 sailor

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:07

I still say

Hamilton 2-0 Button
Hamilton 0 - -1 Hamilton

2011 he lost against himself.


I like Ham but this is so funny - its not even funny.

Lost against himself? LOL

#3674 Rinehart

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:07

Totally agree. However Button was lucky to finish only 2 points behind Hamilton this year. Hamilton was not that lucky last year.


Hamilton was unlucky to be on the end of poor reliability, for sure. But how the hell does that make Jenson lucky? You guys band about this luck thing to explain everything, but it actually explains nothing.

#3675 mclara

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:16

Hamilton was unlucky to be on the end of poor reliability, for sure. But how the hell does that make Jenson lucky? You guys band about this luck thing to explain everything, but it actually explains nothing.


Well for example Abu Dahbi where Hamilton was leading comfortably but retired. What did Button do to so much better that weekend that proved he deserved to gain on the total points of the season? It was luck for BUTTON that he did not loose more ground on that weekend.
What is the highest position Button has retired from in his years at McLaren?

#3676 Trundle

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:20

I've always thought it says a lot when quite a lot of people, fans and even pundits bang on about what Button can do with a car that he likes...i'm sorry but give anybody a car that they like and they will perform well. Its talked about almost as much as what Hamilton can do with a bad car. Which sort of says it all

#3677 Rocket73

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:34

The point i think that most of these people are trying to make is that when JB is happy with his car he better than the rest..not just that he 'performs well'.

Which he kind of is IMO..

I'm sorry about that..

#3678 speng

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:02

The point i think that most of these people are trying to make is that when JB is happy with his car he better than the rest..not just that he 'performs well'.

Which he kind of is IMO..

I'm sorry about that..

How often per season does that happen? Anyway others disagree, see below

http://forums.autosp...w...t=0&start=0

Give credit where it is due. JB has been good, but IMO he isnt on the same level as LH,SV,FA, or KR. JB has driven his heart out but was still bested in 2 out of 3 seasons. Sadly there has to be a "loser" but I don't see that as a bad thing. JB has shown that he can compete and sometimes win, but I feel that JB just isn't as good. However not being as good as LH means being better than a good number of drivers.



#3679 race addicted

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:12

I still say

Hamilton 2-0 Button
Hamilton 0 - -1 Hamilton

2011 he lost against himself.


I absolutely agree. The expression "his own worst enemy" fit perfectly for '11.

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#3680 Trundle

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:20

I absolutely agree. The expression "his own worst enemy" fit perfectly for '11.

:up:

#3681 Burtros

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:25

This all belongs in the JB thread.

I admire the mods determination to keep this open, esp after yesterdays clean up. But I think its all over - yesterday it was slating JB for winning a public vote, today its writting of his 2013 chances however possible.

I cannot understand why Hamilton fans are so bitter towards JB on one hand, but so completely dismissive of his abilities on the other. Something doesnt add up with that if you ask me.




#3682 tifosiMac

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:46

This all belongs in the JB thread.

I admire the mods determination to keep this open, esp after yesterdays clean up. But I think its all over - yesterday it was slating JB for winning a public vote, today its writting of his 2013 chances however possible.

I cannot understand why Hamilton fans are so bitter towards JB on one hand, but so completely dismissive of his abilities on the other. Something doesnt add up with that if you ask me.

Competition. He is an opponent of Lewis Hamilton so its natural to criticise his ability and compare him to his team mate. Can you understand why 'some' Button fans are dismissive of Hamilton's ability, or is this just a one sided question?

#3683 moorsey

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:54

This all belongs in the JB thread.

I admire the mods determination to keep this open, esp after yesterdays clean up. But I think its all over - yesterday it was slating JB for winning a public vote, today its writting of his 2013 chances however possible.

I cannot understand why Hamilton fans are so bitter towards JB on one hand, but so completely dismissive of his abilities on the other. Something doesnt add up with that if you ask me.


It's not necessarily just Hamilton fans. I have never rated Jenson and that started long before Lewis showed on the radar.

#3684 bub

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:00

It's not necessarily just Hamilton fans. I have never rated Jenson and that started long before Lewis showed on the radar.


Before Lewis came along many people probably didn't rate Button. It's hard to impress if you don't have a good car and decent team mate to compare against.

#3685 Burtros

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:04

Competition. He is an opponent of Lewis Hamilton so its natural to criticise his ability and compare him to his team mate. Can you understand why 'some' Button fans are dismissive of Hamilton's ability, or is this just a one sided question?


It is an unfortunate natural response for some people yes. However, its not the correct way to react, and even when some understanding of the emotion is applied, it fails to give some of the comments about JB here any credibility.

as for the two sides to every story card you played, nope. Doesnt work this time as I dont see any Button fans being as dismissive of Hamiltons ability for a while now and my argument centres on the fact its all pointless now they are no longer teammates - nothing new will come up to debate on this subject. Still, I'll give you a chance. Have you any clear examples of Hamilton being dismissed on a consistent basis like this recently? I would suggest one post from a page 2 weeks ago wont quite cut it;)

Would you argue they are well thought out, factually based and unbiased opinions well worthy of discussion? Both from the page before this, posted in the last few days.

Unless McLaren build a car a second faster than the rest for at least a third of the season, he's not going to win the WDC.

McLaren know this, which is why they offered Hamilton more than any other driver.


I still say

Hamilton 2-0 Button
Hamilton 0 - -1 Hamilton

2011 he lost against himself.


I maintain my position. The thread is done and is now just a bashing ground for those who dislike JB. It has run its course.

Edited by Burtros, 04 December 2012 - 13:09.


#3686 speng

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:20

I maintain my position. The thread is done and is now just a bashing ground for those who dislike JB. It has run its course.

I disagree, the thread has now moved in the season in review of Hamilton and Button and it seems you do not like what your reading.

#3687 tifosiMac

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:24

Would you argue they are well thought out, factually based and unbiased opinions well worthy of discussion? Both from the page before this, posted in the last few days.
I maintain my position. The thread is done and is now just a bashing ground for those who dislike JB. It has run its course.

They are personal opinions that I don't feel go out of their way to bash JB. Button is a very good driver but given the choice I would take Hamilton everytime. I think if you are starting a season with a car that may not be completely developed, its Hamilton you would want in the car. Just my opinion and thats not to suggest Button is not a worthy opponent.

#3688 speng

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:39

They are personal opinions that I don't feel go out of their way to bash JB. Button is a very good driver but given the choice I would take Hamilton everytime. I think if you are starting a season with a car that may not be completely developed, its Hamilton you would want in the car. Just my opinion and thats not to suggest Button is not a worthy opponent.

I think the quote below sums it up well

Give credit where it is due. JB has been good, but IMO he isnt on the same level as LH,SV,FA, or KR. JB has driven his heart out but was still bested in 2 out of 3 seasons. Sadly there has to be a "loser" but I don't see that as a bad thing. JB has shown that he can compete and sometimes win, but I feel that JB just isn't as good. However not being as good as LH means being better than a good number of drivers.


Edited by speng, 04 December 2012 - 14:40.


#3689 whitevisor

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 15:19

I still say

Hamilton 2-0 Button
Hamilton 0 - -1 Hamilton

2011 he lost against himself.


I think this is a reasonable statement. People forget that Button only came to the fore in 2011 about half way through despite Lewis' mistakes. It's not like he outpaced Lewis on the track. So an "own goal" from Hamilton.

#3690 Peter Perfect

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 15:41

I think this is a reasonable statement. People forget that Button only came to the fore in 2011 about half way through despite Lewis' mistakes. It's not like he outpaced Lewis on the track. So an "own goal" from Hamilton.

So can we count 2012 as an own goal for Button given his set-up/tyre issues?

#3691 thesham01

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 15:43

So can we count 2012 as an own goal for Button given his set-up/tyre issues?


Well to be fair, even after he sorted his issues Hamilton crushed him (last third of season).

#3692 Lazy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 15:53

Well to be fair, even after he sorted his issues Hamilton crushed him (last third of season).


Really? In the last 7 races where they finished the race, Jenson averaged 3rd and Lewis averaged 5th.

#3693 thesham01

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 15:56

Really? In the last 7 races where they finished the race, Jenson averaged 3rd and Lewis averaged 5th.


Why would you ignore the times that Hamilton completely out-performed his team-mate but non-fault issues cost him? There are 4/5 races in the last 7 that he was handicapped.

#3694 Lazy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:05

Why would you ignore the times that Hamilton completely out-performed his team-mate but non-fault issues cost him? There are 4/5 races in the last 7 that he was handicapped.

Well if that's your definition of crushed it does explain how you might think that your logic is "rock solid".

#3695 PretentiousBread

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:25

Really? In the last 7 races where they finished the race, Jenson averaged 3rd and Lewis averaged 5th.


Huh? Can you show me how you worked that out, because for the life of me that looks like complete nonsense. I'm assuming I've misunderstood what it is you're referring to, but whichever races I look at that just doesn't add up.

Are you only referring to races in which they both finished? Or did you mean the last 7 races including dnfs?

Edited by PretentiousBread, 04 December 2012 - 16:28.


#3696 thesham01

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:46

Well if that's your definition of crushed it does explain how you might think that your logic is "rock solid".


Performance wise Button was very convincingly beaten in the last 7 races. You can hide behind allocation of blame of DNF's and silly statistics like the one you posted if you want.

#3697 thesham01

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:47

Huh? Can you show me how you worked that out, because for the life of me that looks like complete nonsense. I'm assuming I've misunderstood what it is you're referring to, but whichever races I look at that just doesn't add up.

Are you only referring to races in which they both finished? Or did you mean the last 7 races including dnfs?


Its just a nonsense argument in the first place. Completely ignoring context.

#3698 speng

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 17:14

Really? In the last 7 races where they finished the race, Jenson averaged 3rd and Lewis averaged 5th.

Do you honestly think that this a reasonable statement to make if you have seen the races?

#3699 Lazy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 17:16

Huh? Can you show me how you worked that out, because for the life of me that looks like complete nonsense. I'm assuming I've misunderstood what it is you're referring to, but whichever races I look at that just doesn't add up.

Are you only referring to races in which they both finished? Or did you mean the last 7 races including dnfs?


Races where they finished

Lewis Hamilton Ret 5 10 4 Ret 1 Ret 20/4=5
Jenson Button 2 4 Ret 5 4 5 1 21/6=3.5

http://en.wikipedia....mula_One_season

Edited by Lazy, 04 December 2012 - 17:17.


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#3700 Cult

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 17:18

Really? In the last 7 races where they finished the race, Jenson averaged 3rd and Lewis averaged 5th.


US - Hamilton 1st, Button 5th
India - Hamilton 4th, Button 5th
Japan - Hamilton 5th, Button 4th
Hungary - Hamilton 1st, Button 6th
Great Britain - Hamilton 8th, Button 10th
Canada - Hamilton 1st, Button 16th
Spain - Hamilton 8th, Button 9th

What are you talking about? Then look back at the last five races they didn't finish between these two points:

Brazil - Hamilton retired from the lead
Abu Dhabi - Hamilton retired from the lead
Korea - Button never got started and Hamilton had an awful race
Singapore - Hamilton retired from the lead
Italy - Hamilton 1st when Button retired from 2nd

Not sure you have any legs to stand on but making up stats :stoned: