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Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III


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#3801 Dalton007

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:41

So the team judged it for Jense but Lewis had to calculate it himself?


Lewis was struggling to keep pace with Jenson. It made sense for Lewis to pit - was that his own decision? I don't know because none of the interviews made it clear.

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#3802 Dalton007

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:52

You're projecting.

We are only trying to get people to see what really happened, against a tide of Button fans arguing that they are equal, or that Button won their 3 years together.



Level-headed fans are calling it 2 - 1 to Lewis which is a fair result. I'm wondering if you're battling yourself now?

#3803 robefc

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:01

Lewis was struggling to keep pace with Jenson. It made sense for Lewis to pit - was that his own decision? I don't know because none of the interviews made it clear.


Not sure who made the call for lewis, the team certainly made the call for Button...but he ignored them!

Fair play

#3804 PretentiousBread

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:56

Not sure who made the call for lewis, the team certainly made the call for Button...but he ignored them!

Fair play


The way I see it is that Hamilton knew he was struggling to beat JB in those conditions, so he resorted to doing something different, rolled the dice so to speak, because he had nothing to lose. Much in the same way that JB often tried contrary strategies with tyres or number of pitstops in 2010/2011 at dry races e.g. Suzuka 2010, Abu Dhabi 2010, Catalunya 2011, because he knew he had little chance of beating Hamilton in those races without doing something different. That's generally the way it goes, the guy running behind is going to be the one to blink first.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 05 December 2012 - 12:57.


#3805 TurboF1

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 13:24

Level-headed fans are calling it 2 - 1 to Lewis which is a fair result. I'm wondering if you're battling yourself now?



This is fair enough. It's the people that use the 3 year points total as a yardstick to say JB is better are the ones that do my head in. I've never heard that used before in any partnership, as there's no such thing as a 3 year F1 season.

#3806 trogggy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 13:31

This is fair enough. It's the people that use the 3 year points total as a yardstick to say JB is better are the ones that do my head in. I've never heard that used before in any partnership, as there's no such thing as a 3 year F1 season.

Who's doing that?

#3807 speng

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 13:39

Hes lost a win in singapore and abu dhabi, taken out from hulkenberg from another possible win, the first half of the season pitstops, puncture first lap in germany, damaged car in korea and japan.... why am i even telling you this, you all watch the races so you should know just what a horror story Lewis' 2012 has been

The list quite literally could come straight from a hollywood film, its been utterly ridiculous.

Jenson held his own, but Lewis was better, i dont get why you have to push your Jenson agendas when its clear who overall performed better. Even more so why when we have two great british drivers you either have to like one or the other. We should be reaping it while we can cause i see no upcoming British talent of say Lewis' calibre coming for a long time.....enjoy it guys.....

Yes, Button held his own but Hamilton was much better and it is not hard to see. They not equal, they are not close, Hamilton and Alonso are close if not equal.

Those who have brought up the 3 year points total, it is nonsense, again to drive home the point the WDC is every year. 2 - 1 to Hamilton

#3808 Rinehart

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 13:59

In terms of performance, yes it is, crushed is a completely fair word to use. This thread is for comparing respective driver performance. Why must this constantly need explained and repeated when it's obvious that it should be a given?

I've had my fill of arguing with people being intellectually disingenuous in this thread. Sick of it.


Pot, Kettle. Of gigantic proportions. Seemingly hourly posts about these missing 100 points and 6 wins or whatever it is. Yet you have no idea what the roots of the mechanical or strategic problems were, that Hamilton would have gone on to finish anyway, or recognising that all racing accidents are part of the sport. And that's before you either acknowledge that every other driver could be afforded the same calibration of their scores to a greater or lesser degree, not least Jenson Button, for whom you have previously published decidedly unfair reconciliations yet had the front to describe them as "unreasonably fair"!

Most people on here recognise that Lewis was better than Jenson this season and lost more points so the point gap should be wider. Who is arguing that apart from you lot saying were saying that and then arguing it!!!

What I (and I am certainly in a large group of both Lewis and Jenson fans who hold this view) is disputing, is the size of this black whole of luck/lost points/class/performance call it what you will. And does a loss of set up direction mean any less than a loss of in-race strategic direction. Both of which are the function of a TEAM SPORT. You see them differently. Of course you do. How convenient. Not disingenuous at all.

All you appear to want to do is paint the best possible picture for Lewis and the worst passable version for Jenson and declare it a smashing. Which it just wasn't. JB's season could have been very, very different had he not clipped the HRT in Malaysia, suffered the hydraulics in Monza, or found the set up solution sooner for a few instances. I guess your view hangs on the BAD LUCK for JB that in season testing is banned or I guess we'd be having a very different conversation. All these things for both drivers come down to what their true performance level was capable of. Either apply that without clause to both drivers or don't bother.

Seriously, I have no problem with the idea that Lewis was better and unluckier than JB this season, I think I described Hamilton as excellent and Jenson as Good (how can 3 wins, and solving a massive set up issue be poor) but trying to paint the picture you do and describing us as disingenuous and every theory you don't hold as blind is well, whatever mate, quite frankly. Short of all agreeing to support and worship Lewis, I don't really see how we are going to agree on this.

The fact that there are many Hamilton fans suggesting that your going too far says it all really. Actual fans, comfortable that he beat not thrashed Jenson. What are they, disingenuous?

Edited by Rinehart, 05 December 2012 - 18:05.


#3809 PretentiousBread

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:00

Who's doing that?


Think it's being misinterpretted. A lot of people are using it to illustrate their belief that they are roughly equal as drivers. I made a post outlying why I think that's too much to claim on JB's side, when even Lazy partially agreed with my assessment and we've been at loggerheads about just about everything else.

Edited by MightyMoose, 05 December 2012 - 14:14.
Removed: but sadly it was deleted unfairly, <-- You want to talk Moderation? Bad Idea, ask us why it was deleted.


#3810 Rinehart

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:04

Hamilton had overall better performance than Button in Brazil. He passed him on track - twice!
Yeah button made the right tyre call to stay out, but this is Brazil inthe rain there is bound to be saftey ar and HAM calculated it just right.


Yes I forgot the FIA disqualify drivers for using their head as well as their balls.

Strange how Alonso is being praised around the globe for nearly taking the title for being smart, consistent and using the operating and strategic excellence of his team to his advantage, yet on here when Button does so, its a lesser achievement.



#3811 Rinehart

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:05

To be fair it's been going on since it was announced that Button was joining McLaren in the first place.


Hmmmm...."calculated it". You mean he meant to drop 45 seconds behind to lull the leaders into a false sense of security? :stoned:


Page 1, year 1. "Lewis will thrash Jenson"

Page 96, year 3. (I must argue this as I don't want to be wrong on the internet).

The end.

#3812 speng

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:05

Who's doing that?

who said that? I am not calling anyone out but I am sure there were several

Edited by speng, 05 December 2012 - 14:06.


#3813 trogggy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:12

who said that? I am not calling anyone out but I am sure there were several

I'm calling you out - seeing as thesham's not responded. :D

Seriously, I think this is an imaginary position. I've read numerous times that hordes of Button fans are using the 3-year total to claim JB is better (or even equal). I haven't seen the posts.

#3814 thesham01

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:13

Level-headed fans are calling it 2 - 1 to Lewis which is a fair result. I'm wondering if you're battling yourself now?


I've already said 2-1 is a very fair reflection of their time together, and their abilities.

I'm just trying to hammer home that this year Button has been more than 'outshone'.

#3815 thesham01

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:14

I'm calling you out - seeing as thesham's not responded. :D

Seriously, I think this is an imaginary position. I've read numerous times that hordes of Button fans are using the 3-year total to claim JB is better (or even equal). I haven't seen the posts.


Well I'd rather not name the posters, but I'm sure people can guess.

But maybe I'm wrong with even them saying Button is equal, maybe they have changed their tune over the last year. But certainly after 2011 there was a good few saying they are at least equal. Surely that you can agree on?

#3816 Rinehart

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:16

Think it's being misinterpretted. A lot of people are using it to illustrate their belief that they are roughly equal as drivers. I made a post outlying why I think that's too much to claim on JB's side, but sadly it was deleted unfairly, when even Lazy partially agreed with my assessment and we've been at loggerheads about just about everything else.


They are about equal in the relms of the difference between two of the worlds top current racing drivers!!! Over 5 or 6 years in a range of different cars and regulations they have similar statistics, including 1 title each from their best chance. Hamilton has his own advantages in terms of things such as speed, which are born out in statistics such as qualifying, whereas Jenson has his own advantages such as his approach, which are born out in such more points converted from qualifying position. This has got nothing to do with coulda, woulda, shoulda stats, this has got to do with what actually happened. Hamilton has suffered more DNF's, more crashes, more penalties. Jenson has won more chaotic races, finished more races, bonded with his teams better. Face it, they go about things in very different ways, they arrive in roughly the same place in the end, over 100 races or so. If this is all so terribly unfair on Hamilton, he should do something about it. Ah, he has, he's signed for Mercedes.

You make your own luck as far as I'm concerned.

#3817 thesham01

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:18

They are about equal in the relms of the difference between two of the worlds top current racing drivers!!! Over 5 or 6 years in a range of different cars and regulations they have similar statistics, including 1 title each from their best chance. Hamilton has his own advantages in terms of things such as speed, which are born out in statistics such as qualifying, whereas Jenson has his own advantages such as his approach, which are born out in such more points converted from qualifying position. This has got nothing to do with coulda, woulda, shoulda stats, this has got to do with what actually happened. Hamilton has suffered more DNF's, more crashes, more penalties. Jenson has won more chaotic races, finished more races, bonded with his teams better. Face it, they go about things in very different ways, they arrive in roughly the same place in the end, over 100 races or so. If this is all so terribly unfair on Hamilton, he should do something about it. Ah, he has, he's signed for Mercedes.

You make your own luck as far as I'm concerned.


Okay, so they haven't changed their tune.

#3818 trogggy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:19

Well I'd rather not name the posters, but I'm sure people can guess.

But maybe I'm wrong with even them saying Button is equal, maybe they have changed their tune over the last year. But certainly after 2011 there was a good few saying they are at least equal. Surely that you can agree on?

No. That's the whole point. Out the crazies!!! If they exist.
There were certainly posters - some of them Lewis fans - saying that Button was better in 2011. I was one of them. I don't think you were.
Is that what you meant?

#3819 tifosiMac

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:20

I've already said 2-1 is a very fair reflection of their time together, and their abilities.

I'm just trying to hammer home that this year Button has been more than 'outshone'.

To be honest anybody that watched every race this season knows how the points difference between the two Mac drivers is not reflective of their performance. Last year Jenson finished ahead by being consistent and error free whereas Lewis left his head in the clouds a bit and made far too many errors. One positive from 2011 for Lewis is the fact his under-performances were not due to lack of ability or a struggle with the car. He remained fast and won some dominant races, he just let things get to him off and on the track. If we had had 3 straight years where both drivers drove at the top of their game we'd have a better measure I think. The funny thing is, this year Jenson was closer to winning the WDC than last year even though he was 2nd last season and 5th this season. Show's how far off they were in terms of the winner.

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#3820 tifosiMac

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:22

No. That's the whole point. Out the crazies!!! If they exist.
There were certainly posters - some of them Lewis fans...

I don't think anyone wants to read posts naming other posters when there is plenty to talk about regarding the topic.

#3821 trogggy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:23

If we had had 3 straight years where both drivers drove at the top of their game we'd have a better measure I think.

That would be 2 different drivers though. I'd love to judge JB's performance ignoring his set-up issues this year, or the times he's struggled to heat tyres. He'd be grrrrreat.
But not JB.

#3822 Lazy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:23

Well I'd rather not name the posters, but I'm sure people can guess.

But maybe I'm wrong with even them saying Button is equal, maybe they have changed their tune over the last year. But certainly after 2011 there was a good few saying they are at least equal. Surely that you can agree on?

Why not name them?

Indeed, and a lot of pundits were saying the same and even some LH fans had jumped ship, Feiraku for example.

Just goes to show what a difference a year makes and no doubt it will look different again after next year as well.

#3823 trogggy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:24

I don't think anyone wants to read posts naming other posters when there is plenty to talk about regarding the topic.

Don't worry. The posts don't exist.

#3824 thesham01

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:29

Don't worry. The posts don't exist.


I'm not sure why you want me to name them. We all know who they are. I've commented on posters before and got suspended so I'm not doing it again.

If you don't think that there were posters who thought Button and Hamilton were equal after 2011, then I don't know what to say.

#3825 thesham01

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:32

Why not name them?

Indeed, and a lot of pundits were saying the same and even some LH fans had jumped ship, Feiraku for example.

Just goes to show what a difference a year makes and no doubt it will look different again after next year as well.


No, it wouldn't.

The way Button got beat this year was different than the way Hamilton got beat last year, it was more fundamental to their abilities this year.

Plus this year was a very, very, very, convincing win for Hamilton performance wise. Far, far more convincing than last years loss was for him.

Edited by thesham01, 05 December 2012 - 14:33.


#3826 tifosiMac

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:36

If you don't think that there were posters who thought Button and Hamilton were equal after 2011, then I don't know what to say.

That debate is common on whatever forum you visit. The amount of times someone has said to me 'but JB outscored LH over the 3 years so he's on par with him' is well into double figures. I agree with that stat because its a cold hard fact, but its not as leading as it sounds after 2012. Its generous IMO and I'm happy Lewis is departing McLaren having done the talking on track. Its been a disappointing season results wise for Lewis, but a true example of how good he is too. exciting times are ahead and although as fella's its sad to see the partnership break up, I won't miss this constant comparison crap.

#3827 speng

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:37

I'm calling you out - seeing as thesham's not responded. :D

Seriously, I think this is an imaginary position. I've read numerous times that hordes of Button fans are using the 3-year total to claim JB is better (or even equal). I haven't seen the posts.

:lol: Are you blind? look at my post again.

#3828 Lazy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:39

To be honest anybody that watched every race this season knows how the points difference between the two Mac drivers is not reflective of their performance. Last year Jenson finished ahead by being consistent and error free whereas Lewis left his head in the clouds a bit and made far too many errors. One positive from 2011 for Lewis is the fact his under-performances were not due to lack of ability or a struggle with the car. He remained fast and won some dominant races, he just let things get to him off and on the track. If we had had 3 straight years where both drivers drove at the top of their game we'd have a better measure I think. The funny thing is, this year Jenson was closer to winning the WDC than last year even though he was 2nd last season and 5th this season. Show's how far off they were in terms of the winner.


It's funny this how apparently remaining fast but crashing into a lot of things is seen as better performance wise than struggling with setup. Jenson too has won some dominant races this season and been very fast at times but had some setup problems.

#3829 Lazy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:44

No, it wouldn't.

The way Button got beat this year was different than the way Hamilton got beat last year, it was more fundamental to their abilities this year.

Plus this year was a very, very, very, convincing win for Hamilton performance wise. Far, far more convincing than last years loss was for him.


Yeah, coz crashing is so much more skillful than having setup issues.

#3830 robefc

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:44

The way I see it is that Hamilton knew he was struggling to beat JB in those conditions, so he resorted to doing something different, rolled the dice so to speak, because he had nothing to lose. Much in the same way that JB often tried contrary strategies with tyres or number of pitstops in 2010/2011 at dry races e.g. Suzuka 2010, Abu Dhabi 2010, Catalunya 2011, because he knew he had little chance of beating Hamilton in those races without doing something different. That's generally the way it goes, the guy running behind is going to be the one to blink first.


I think he thought it was wet enough for inters and he was right at the time.

Possibly the team called him in or gave their thoughts, they undoubtedly called button in a lap later, it was on the macca website thing, and he chose to stay out because it wasn't raining.

Ironically, an example of where being on the right tyres at the right time was actually the wrong decision (inters were 3 seconds quicker for a couple of laps).

I give JB full credit for that decision.

#3831 trogggy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:48

I'm not sure why you want me to name them. We all know who they are. I've commented on posters before and got suspended so I'm not doing it again.

If you don't think that there were posters who thought Button and Hamilton were equal after 2011, then I don't know what to say.

Send me a PM then.
It's because I think you're describing imaginary posters.
You claimed there is 'a tide of Button fans arguing that they are equal, or that Button won their 3 years together.'

Who has claimed that Button 'won'?
'Only a few posters, but they are pretty active. '
Really?
Or just admit it was a bit of hyperbole.

The last sentence isn't relevant to what you claimed at all by the way. And you've imagined a reply from me, because that isn't what I wrote.



#3832 thesham01

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:50

It's funny this how apparently remaining fast but crashing into a lot of things is seen as better performance wise than struggling with setup. Jenson too has won some dominant races this season and been very fast at times but had some setup problems.


Its more than that though.

In the last third of the season Hamilton has convincingly beaten Button performance wise (including speed etc). In the second half of last year (the only period Button has beaten Hamilton) Hamilton was still faster for the most part, but had checked out of the WDC race and so put his car in places he shouldn't.

There is a huge difference there, whether you want to see it or not.

#3833 trogggy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:50

:lol: Are you blind? look at my post again.

:confused:
Not blind, just confused.

#3834 WitnessX

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:52

I'm not sure why you want me to name them. We all know who they are. I've commented on posters before and got suspended so I'm not doing it again.

If you don't think that there were posters who thought Button and Hamilton were equal after 2011, then I don't know what to say.

Mr & Mrs Strawman perhaps?

The way around that is to put links to the posts you object to. Feel free to do so.

#3835 thesham01

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:52

Yeah, coz crashing is so much more skillful than having setup issues.


Button issue is more than set-up. He isn't as fast as Hamilton. You can't fix that, whereas Hamilton can and has fixed being too aggressive.

The last third of this year is the real difference between them IMO. Both at ease with the car, and Hamilton would win 3/4 to Buttons 1... with a 30 point difference between them maybe.

EDIT: the real difference between them now. As in going forward. Obviously not the real difference between them for the 2011 or 2010. But Hamilton has grown now into being considerably better.

Edited by thesham01, 05 December 2012 - 14:58.


#3836 thesham01

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 14:54

Send me a PM then.
It's because I think you're describing imaginary posters.
You claimed there is 'a tide of Button fans arguing that they are equal, or that Button won their 3 years together.'

Who has claimed that Button 'won'?
'Only a few posters, but they are pretty active. '
Really?
Or just admit it was a bit of hyperbole.

The last sentence isn't relevant to what you claimed at all by the way. And you've imagined a reply from me, because that isn't what I wrote.



:confused:
Not blind, just confused.


Mr & Mrs Strawman perhaps?

The way around that is to put links to the posts you object to. Feel free to do so.



Are you serious that you have never seen a poster claim that Button is equal with Hamilton ability wise? There is one who claimed it on this very god damn page!


#3837 tifosiMac

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:02

Its all well asking someone to prove an opinion (I fully agree with btw) by linking posts, but maybe they could also provide proof their opinion stands too? You may love a good witch hunt but you have to be able to back up your own claims people. :drunk:

#3838 trogggy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:05

Are you serious that you have never seen a poster claim that Button is equal with Hamilton ability wise? There is one who claimed it on this very god damn page!

That poster (no names!) has posted very clearly - and often - that he sees it as a 2-1 win for Hamilton. There was a very good post from him on the subject (you probably didn't like it but at least some LH fans did). I've asked who claimed the win for JB.
That's what you wrote isn't it?
Floods of 'em apparently.

#3839 senna da silva

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:06

Yeah, coz crashing is so much more skillful than having setup issues.


Please give examples of where Lewis crashed in 2012 where he was at fault in any way shape or form.

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#3840 trogggy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:07

Its all well asking someone to prove an opinion (I fully agree with btw) by linking posts, but maybe they could also provide proof their opinion stands too? You may love a good witch hunt but you have to be able to back up your own claims people. :drunk:

What?

Someone claims there are floods of posters saying JB beat LH.
How do you 'prove' that isn't true?
Quote the whole thread?

#3841 thesham01

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:15

What?

Someone claims there are floods of posters saying JB beat LH.
How do you 'prove' that isn't true?
Quote the whole thread?


I actually said a tide 'against those who think they were equal, or think he won', have a look at my post again.

And even if I never said that, does it matter? The point is there are plenty of very vocal posters who have been arguing something that isn't correct for a long time, and that is what I'm arguing against. Even if my wording was off this is a pretty pathetic attempt to undermine my argument.

But its a classic strategy by Button fans here: can't undermine the argument, so we'll call them 'lalas' or get pedantic with their posts to undermine them.


#3842 Lazy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:19

Please give examples of where Lewis crashed in 2012 where he was at fault in any way shape or form.


Please give examples of where I said Lewis crashed in 2012 where he was at fault in any way shape or form.

#3843 Lazy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:25

I actually said a tide 'against those who think they were equal, or think he won', have a look at my post again.

And even if I never said that, does it matter? The point is there are plenty of very vocal posters who have been arguing something that isn't correct for a long time, and that is what I'm arguing against. Even if my wording was off this is a pretty pathetic attempt to undermine my argument.

But its a classic strategy by Button fans here: can't undermine the argument, so we'll call them 'lalas' or get pedantic with their posts to undermine them.


no you didn't.

We are only trying to get people to see what really happened, against a tide of Button fans arguing that they are equal, or that Button won their 3 years together.

#3844 trogggy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:33

I actually said a tide 'against those who think they were equal, or think he won', have a look at my post again.

And even if I never said that, does it matter? The point is there are plenty of very vocal posters who have been arguing something that isn't correct for a long time, and that is what I'm arguing against. Even if my wording was off this is a pretty pathetic attempt to undermine my argument.

But its a classic strategy by Button fans here: can't undermine the argument, so we'll call them 'lalas' or get pedantic with their posts to undermine them.

Pedantic?

You made a statement that Button fans were claiming that he 'won their three years together'.
That isn't true.
Is it?

Edited by trogggy, 05 December 2012 - 15:34.


#3845 gricey1981

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:37

Thread is getting a bit silly now!

I guess it always was though.

Will be a shame these two arent team mates next year. Definitely the strongest line up.

Its been fun debating there various merits. obviously Hamilton is better but.... :)


#3846 WitnessX

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:59

I actually said a tide 'against those who think they were equal, or think he won', have a look at my post again.

And even if I never said that, does it matter? The point is there are plenty of very vocal posters who have been arguing something that isn't correct for a long time, and that is what I'm arguing against. Even if my wording was off this is a pretty pathetic attempt to undermine my argument.

But its a classic strategy by Button fans here: can't undermine the argument, so we'll call them 'lalas' or get pedantic with their posts to undermine them.

And again same thing, instead of answering the valid challenges put against your posts you start attacking "Button fans".

Irony?

#3847 senna da silva

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 16:12

This points things really stings doesn't it.....

Sure the points dont add up over 3 years to any sort of title BUT when you have two drivers racing for the same team it is perfectly reasonable, in fact it's scientific :smoking: , to add total points to get an accurate as possible representation on how good each driver is at getting points in F1 races..



#3848 thesham01

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 16:21

no you didn't.

We are only trying to get people to see what really happened, against a tide of Button fans arguing that they are equal, or that Button won their 3 years together.


Thats exactly what I said I said; against a tide of those who think they are equal or Button won. Where is the difference?

Pedantic?

You made a statement that Button fans were claiming that he 'won their three years together'.
That isn't true.
Is it?


It's pedantic because I was explaining to someone why I am trying to hammer home how Button was crushed this year. My explanation was because there are/were some very vocal posters who are arguing something that isn't true. That was my point. You got pedantic by picking over my sentence and the words used.

I would be shocked if you didn't already know this.

And again same thing, instead of answering the valid challenges put against your posts you start attacking "Button fans".

Irony?


I never attack posters. I always try to keep it to the topic, and never bring in statements like 'lalas'. Ever. I am only trying to defend myself against, what is certainly now, a tide of anti-thesham01ism



Do any of you actually think I am wrong in saying that there are/have been many vocal posters who try to argue that they are equal at least? In 2011 they were certainly arguing Button was better. I'm not going to spend hours and hours trying find these posts. I know it, you know; there were posters arguing that Button was at least equal at one stage.

Edited by thesham01, 05 December 2012 - 16:22.


#3849 senna da silva

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 16:22

Ah but 3 years ago the consensus was that Hamilton would thrash Button at Mclaren. That hasn't happened, in fact Button has OUTSCORED Lewis over 3 years. So bollocks to the kids quite frankly.



#3850 senna da silva

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 16:27

Says it all really

Fittingly Lewis finished off by crashing because of a back-marker after winning because of a back-marker in Texas
The winner overall imo after 3 years of McLaren is Jenson Button

Well done Jense :up: