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Webber again loses stamina in Championship fight!


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#1 BackOnTop

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:41

Mark Webber may be known as very gritty, but when it comes to Championship fights, the grit goes down the drain. I find it very confusing and irritating at the same time.

It's pretty weird that in 2010, after going on and on to the press that Team will need to decide on team orders soon approaching Japan/Korea.... he bins it big time himself & becomes Slow Jane as well. So much so, that after advocating some help needed from Vettel, he himself fails to make a dent on Alonso in Abu Dhabi leaving Sebastian Vettel to fight out his own victory & championship.

It's 2012 now, and the same pattern is emerging. He led the championship at one point this year... then wham... he is relegated to 5th in the standings with 132 points & 6 races still to go. Whereas Sebastian Vettel is hitting all kinds of technical glitch at the front (35+ points lost), Seb is still 33 points clear of him @165. What's even worse is that he is fundamentally failing to take points off Alonso in some races where RBR is clearly quicker than the Ferrari.

Another pattern that has emerged in 2010, 2011 & 2012 is that he goes off the boil as soon as he "extends his contract". In 2011, he was the worst driver in the fastest car by miles, finishing behind Button in an decent Mclaren. If any proof is needed, one really needs to look at where Kimi is in 2012 championship... 3rd@149 Points in a decent Lotus. Hamilton is behind Raikkonen only because of Mclaren, and not because of poor driving, and Kimi is ahead of them both not because of any luck, but great consistent driving, similar to why Alonso is ahead of everyone.

Same can't be said about Webber this year again. And what's more, he once again is failing to make a dent on Alonso by failing to points off him to be of any help to Vettel this year again.

I have no issues with Webber, but he needs to pick up the pace if Rbr have any hopes of beating Mclaren in the Constructors & Alonso in the Drivers Championship.

Webber since Bahrain 2012 (he finished 4th in first 4 races)
Location- Qualy- Race- Points- Championship

Spanish-- 11-- 11-- 0-- 48
Monaco-- 1-- 1-- 25-- 73
Canada-- 4-- 7-- 6-- 79
Europe-- 19-- 4-- 12-- 91
British-- 2-- 1-- 25-- 116

German-- 8-- 8-- 4-- 120
Hungary-- 11-- 8-- 4-- 124
Belgian-- 12-- 6-- 8-- 132
Italian-- 11-- 20-- 0-- 132
Singpre-- 7-- 11-- 0-- 132

Britain win came days after he renewed contract. Then Germany onwards once the euphoria of another contract signed is done, he has been really bad. Why does he lose it every time in the second half of the championship, which generally seperates the Men from the Boys.

Edited by BackOnTop, 24 September 2012 - 03:53.


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#2 karne

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:01

Or, you know, maybe RED BULL are the ones who should pick up their game!

Since the contract:

- two gearbox change penalties in three races
- a broken diff (which he drove to the end of the race!)
- NO KERS 90% OF THE TIME
- ridiculous strategies that a two year old could have done better

And more.

#3 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:01

There is already a Webber thread if you like.

Webbo was certainly slow in the Singapore Grand Prix. The extremely poor strategy here, and the gearbox penalties in previous races have not assisted his wdc points score.

Certainly we have not heard Webbo say " We will show them, attack attack. We are who we are " blah blah as Vettel says. Even Webber fans are the first to admit that Potsie (webber) is not as determined or wholly focussed on winning the championship as Fingerboy is. Webbo is the first to say "lets just get some points and move forward" when the car is being difficult. Conversely Vettel is much more much agitiated when he has pushed 110% maximum attack and yet achieved a mediocre and disappointing result such as Monaco qually etc, whilst Webber is not as bothered with such results IMO.

Similarly there has been a lack of pace in the RBR after recent rule clarifications, but Vettel has done much more with it. Vettel has taken an excellent win and a 2nd place despite not having a dominant car. The McLaren was certainly very comparable in Singapore to the Red Bull IMO. Ferrari will be much more competitive in Suzuka, and maybe Alonso will be challenging for the win there, as he did in Barcelona with the excellent medium to high speed grip of the Ferrari.

#4 goldenboy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:22

There is already a Webber thread if you like.

:up: yes, no need to jump around different threads for the exact same thing

#5 seltaeb

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:25

I would love to see Webber do better. I was really pulling for him to win the 2010 WDC. I was gutted when he crashed in Korea, because I thought he had it locked up that year.

I still see Mark having trouble on the starts. Unless he is on the front row, he seems to lose a lot of positions at the start of races. He sometimes goes from 4th to 9th in the opening laps, then spends the rest of the race in 6-7-8th place or somewhere thereabouts. I wish that wasn't the case, because I think he's a fighter and could easily give some of the quicker drivers a run for their money.

I'd love to see Mark get in the thick of the championship battle again in the future. If not this year, maybe next year. I still think he should have signed with Ferrari for 2013 -- if that was an option.

#6 BackOnTop

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:30

There is already a Webber thread if you like.

Webbo was certainly slow in the Singapore Grand Prix. The extremely poor strategy here, and the gearbox penalties in previous races have not assisted his wdc points score.

Certainly we have not heard Webbo say " We will show them, attack attack. We are who we are " blah blah as Vettel says. Even Webber fans are the first to admit that Potsie (webber) is not as determined or wholly focussed on winning the championship as Fingerboy is. Webbo is the first to say "lets just get some points and move forward" when the car is being difficult. Conversely Vettel is much more much agitiated when he has pushed 110% maximum attack and yet achieved a mediocre and disappointing result such as Monaco qually etc, whilst Webber is not as bothered with such results IMO.

Similarly there has been a lack of pace in the RBR after recent rule clarifications, but Vettel has done much more with it. Vettel has taken an excellent win and a 2nd place despite not having a dominant car. The McLaren was certainly very comparable in Singapore to the Red Bull IMO. Ferrari will be much more competitive in Suzuka, and maybe Alonso will be challenging for the win there, as he did in Barcelona with the excellent medium to high speed grip of the Ferrari.

In that case, Webber should go home to his wife and live a comfortable life with RBR retirement benefits.

Or look for a new challenge at a different team. Pretty weird that he rejected Ferrari because he wants to win championships, but he doesn't look like he'll get it this year again.

With hindsight, I think he got carried away and resigned with RBR... whereas a Ferrari switch would have suited him really really well. He is not championship material, but could have been a very good fit with Ferrari. Some wins for the reds would have been great on his CV. Alas, he screwed up that opportunity as well by thinking he is faster than his boots allow.

Edited by BackOnTop, 24 September 2012 - 04:32.


#7 BackOnTop

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:35

:up: yes, no need to jump around different threads for the exact same thing

Well, this is a peculiar habit of Webber & his championship saga.... and posting it on Webber thread would have made no sense as particular fanboys wouldn't allow a proper discussion on it and call everyone names.

You should be happy that the official Webber thread is kept clean that ways.

#8 karne

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:43

I still see Mark having trouble on the starts. Unless he is on the front row, he seems to lose a lot of positions at the start of races. He sometimes goes from 4th to 9th in the opening laps, then spends the rest of the race in 6-7-8th place or somewhere thereabouts. I wish that wasn't the case, because I think he's a fighter and could easily give some of the quicker drivers a run for their money.


:confused:

Dunno what starts you're watching, but they're not the starts of the races of 2012 since Monaco...

#9 BackOnTop

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:51

I would love to see Webber do better. I was really pulling for him to win the 2010 WDC. I was gutted when he crashed in Korea, because I thought he had it locked up that year.

I still see Mark having trouble on the starts. Unless he is on the front row, he seems to lose a lot of positions at the start of races. He sometimes goes from 4th to 9th in the opening laps, then spends the rest of the race in 6-7-8th place or somewhere thereabouts. I wish that wasn't the case, because I think he's a fighter and could easily give some of the quicker drivers a run for their money.

I'd love to see Mark get in the thick of the championship battle again in the future. If not this year, maybe next year. I still think he should have signed with Ferrari for 2013 -- if that was an option.

Webber himself said he had an option/offer with Ferrari... but said he chose RedBull again because he is going to be fighting for championship with this team.

I wonder what made him think he'll ever beat Vettel to the championship or he's as quick & determined as him. But I think the decision was based more than that... from the outside, it clearly looks like Webber just doesn't have it in him to take Risks (Ferrari move) or have any inclination of getting out of his comfort zone (Rbr enviornment).

And as everyone knows, if one doesn't take the chance & do something out of their comfort zone... they generally keep going backwards and regress big time. Webber is on a roll right now with mediocre results. Ferrari definitely would have given him new steam in his mid-life crisis. He chose retirement plan instead. Bad choice.

#10 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:53

...whereas a Ferrari switch would have suited him really really well.

I don't know as the bloke ("chap" ;) ) owns an English pub and has almost undergone an Aussie-to-English conversion :eek: :lol: , I don't think he speaks Italian.

#11 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:57

Webber is on a roll right now with mediocre results. Ferrari definitely would have given him new steam in his mid-life crisis. He chose retirement plan instead.

Really it's Schumi that is on an ongoing retirement plan, it really doesn't seem that bad, aside from the odd French rookie being slightly bothered by a minor downtown car accident. :)

#12 BackOnTop

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:10

Really it's Schumi that is on an ongoing retirement plan, it really doesn't seem that bad, aside from the odd French rookie being slightly bothered by a minor downtown car accident. :)

Mercedes needed Schumacher's personality to make an instant impact with their foray into F1. Honestly, it would take any new team 3 years to convince a megastar to join them (Hamilton for example).... and Schumi provided a perfect bedding in phase for Ross Brawn. Also, why should Schumi give up his image rights for cheap when Merc benefitted big time. Also, Schumi is beating Rosberg regularly now.

Anyways, who else would have Merc signed in their first year into F1??? They let Button go, none of the other champions were interested and Kimi talks with Haug didn't materialize as Raikkonen had already said it was Mclaren or nothing.

On the other hand, Ferrari gave an offer to Webber... which he rejected. I still think he'll be the ultimate loser and kinda regret this decision when he retires. He's is getting beaten by Vettel now... so how would it have made any difference if he got beat by Alonso.

But for overall performance, Webber definitely would have benefited with a change of environment. No risk, no gain... hence his current 5th in the championship standings.

#13 smoothcrim

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:29

Im just dissapointed that he cant overcome adversity like the best drivers can.When u are having badluck and things are going wrong u need to find a way to win and Webber isnt capable of doing that.

Over a season he isnt as good as Vettel,Alonso or Hamilton,its as simple as that.

#14 kosmos

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:53

He should have take the Ferrari offer, good food, change of scenary, learning new things from a new team, the prestige to drive for Ferrari and so on, if he renewed with RB under the assumption that he had a chance to fight for the title, he is a fool, in the other hand if he stayed on RB because he is settled in UK and don't want a big chance in his life, that's respetable.

If 2013 is going to be his last year, he should have signed with Ferrari, there is nothing to lose, nothing at all.

#15 Sardukar

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 06:33

I thought it was common knowledge that he was injured pretty badly with his shoulder during the second half of 2010. But i guess some people don't really follow the sport that well?

#16 HP

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 06:35

I'm really not in the MW camp, but I think he deserves some recognition. For a while he was ahead in the standings, ahead of his double WDC winning teammate.

His main issue is still his consistency throughout the season. He is in the same league as many good, but not great drivers, that never won a championship (so far).

His qualy pace seems to have suffered lately. He used to be quite the specialist. Seeing that his teammate also struggles at times in qualifying this year, I'd think part of the issue is confidence in the car. For an inconsistent driver that is probably a double whammy, as it can't help the overall confidence if you are unsure about your car.



#17 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:06

Webber's problems are more than likely no one else's fault other than his. In a relatively close WCC fight, i'd find it extraordinary if Red Bull would sabotage Webber and risk WCC points merely to get Vettel ahead in the WDC.

Webber has simply shown he's not up for the fight consistently. He has his favourite tracks he usually does very well on - Monaco, Silverstone, Interlagos - the others, he's frankly middle of the road, or godawful.

#18 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:15

I don't know as the bloke ("chap" ;) ) owns an English pub and has almost undergone an Aussie-to-English conversion :eek: :lol: , I don't think he speaks Italian.


Well he should have started learning it. Geezus, Princess Mary learnt Danish - said to be one of the most difficult languages for an adult to learn - from scratch. I'm sure Mark could have broadened his horizons and learnt some passable Italian.

I agree with the OP, Mark doesnt seem to have any real ambition these days. He speaks like a content number 2 who's rather happy living in England and having the factory just down the road.

#19 encircled

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:03

It did not help that Singapore is one of his poorer tracks, and with Abu Dhabi also coming up will not help matters either, as that is also one of his poorer tracks.

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#20 InvertedLift

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:26

I thought it was common knowledge that he was injured pretty badly with his shoulder during the second half of 2010. But i guess some people don't really follow the sport that well?

Broke his collarbone, or did his shoulder or something in that order in a bicycle crash around Singapore iirc.

#21 Sardukar

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:31

He has his favourite tracks he usually does very well on - Monaco, Silverstone, Interlagos - the others, he's frankly middle of the road, or godawful.


Oh yeah so Webber is godawful at these tracks then? where he was faster than vettel in qual? ontop of doing "very well on" monaco, silverstone and interlagos.

Australia

Mark Webber Red Bull Racing-Renault 1:27.117 1:26.297 1:25.651
Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing-Renault 1:26.773 1:25.982 1:25.668

Malaysia

Mark Webber Red Bull Racing-Renault 1:37.172 1:37.375 1:36.461
Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing-Renault 1:38.102 1:37.419 1:36.634

China

Mark Webber Red Bull Racing-Renault 1:36.682 1:35.700 1:36.290
Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing-Renault 1:36.911 1:36.031

Spa

Mark Webber Red Bull Racing-Renault 1:49.859 1:48.546 1:48.392
Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing-Renault 1:49.722 1:48.792

Yeah that mark webber guy really does suck, he should just retire or somethin'.


#22 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:47

^ geez you're a numpty sometimes. :rolleyes:

We're talking OVERALL - not individual stats you pull from your butt to try and use as over-riding proof of greatness. How many podiums does Webber have in Australia? How many times has he beaten Vettel in Australia? Those tracks you've quoted, Webber's middle of the road. Aside from Spa, where he's probably better than that overall (but still got his butt kicked by Vettel in the race). Now, wanna talk Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Montreal, Singapore, Korea?

Webber was marginally faster until Vettel got a handle on a car minus the EBD. Since then, he's been smacked around. Contrast this to the 'cant teach an old dog new tricks' Webber of 2011, who was owned all year long.

I've never been a critic of Webber, in fact i'm a paid-up member of his Supporter's Club. But I wont be next year, i'm frankly sick of the latent mediocrity and inability to get the better of his teammate season after season. And Mark SHOULD retire, or leave RBR.

#23 goldenboy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:53

I thought it was common knowledge that he was injured pretty badly with his shoulder during the second half of 2010. But i guess some people don't really follow the sport that well?

I sawhim interviewed on live morning tv in australia just after that whole shoulder fiasco and he said it was a storm in a teacup and it was nothing really

#24 engel

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:59

I don't think he's lost stamina, he has had a string of bad luck (yes bad luck I don't buy into the conspiracy theories) after Silverstone that deflated his championship hopes. Still he can be the one that determines who wins the championship (if he starts taking points off Alonso consistently). Overall though, IMO, he's had a much better season than 2011

#25 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:03

Overall though, IMO, he's had a much better season than 2011


It wouldnt be hard.

#26 PassWind

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:08

He is there to make sure they win a WCC first and foremost, it's clear who the faster driver is in the Newey chassis, and it ain't Mark. There isn't another driver on the grid I would put in there right now with Vettel with his best years ahead, if Mark can get his fair share of points towards the constructors no point in upsetting the apple cart until RBR think they need to put a fire up Vettels ass. Right now Mark gets close enough to Seb in pace to push him, so nothing needs to change. 3 WCC's on the trot would be impressive for a privateer team....well nearly privateer...

#27 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:18

Webber has been average lately lately but not terrible. Ive come on here after all his latest races and given it to him because i get frustrated by him getting stuck behind slower cars and not being able to overtake. Just last night the Sky commentators were commenting on how Senna? was driving away from the Red Bull even when Webber had the DRS open. The car is firmly in the pack this season and has no top speed at all.

His performances have been made worse by a lot of misfortune in recent races. 2 gearbox penalties, Kers problems in nearly every quali and race, no top speed and a car which is not the greatest in quali make it very hard for RB drivers to recover.

This is why id say that Seb is doing a superb job at the moment. The Red Bull is clearly not a good quali car, and while it usually has good race speed it is very hard to overtake with, yet Vettel has been making passes stick and scoring very well.

The last few tracks havent suited RB or Webber very well either.

Singapore Webber is very poor at. His second worse track after Abu Dahbi.
Spa needs a good top speed to be good at and with red bull not the dominant in high speed corners anymore they struggled
Monza never been a great Webber track either and Red Bull were nowhere.
Germany he had a gearbox and diff problem?

He has had a fair bit of bad luck and its due to turn around, Its probably too late but i think he will be back in the top points come Suzuka.

Overall id say with this years Red Bull both Webber and Vettel have been the best pairing and strongest pairing by far.
Frankly the fact that Mclaren are not 100 points in the lead with their car advantage is a great pointer in how well the RB boys are doing with their 3rd, 4th best car. :up:

#28 noikeee

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:45

As much as I like Webber I think the issue isn't a particular lack of motivation/determination, but simply not being good enough. He's just like Barrichello and Coulthard, a touch below being a top driver, he can hassle the top drivers on good form, he can even get into a championship fight when on it and/or the circumstances are right (ex DC got in it in 2001 when Mika went off the mark and there weren't a lot of top drivers around; Rubens in 09 when Button dropped his performance midseason and RB had amassed a lot of points under a very dominant car; Webber can do it when Vettel isn't dominant), but it rarely lasts a whole season.

It's annoying but at least he got a lot more recognition now after these years at Red Bull. I remember when he was at Williams and people thought he was rubbish, overrated, flattered by team-mates, unable to back up qualifying performances, etc. At least he got a few race wins under his name and quite rightly so.

Unfortunately age is catching up now. It's not as much of a big deal these days and I can't see any huge decline in performance yet but he probably won't be around in 5 years time. I will remember him for top drives like Monaco 2006 and Nurburgring 2009. :up: And as a good guy, unafraid to speak out and reasonably so.

Edited by noikeee, 24 September 2012 - 11:45.


#29 Spillage

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:03

I thought he had a broken shoulder in 2010. That would've explained his dropoff in performance, not to mention he was recovering from a broken leg as well.

EDIT: That said, however, I agree with posters above who say Webber simply isn't good enough to be a WDC. I don't think he's a choker; he just has a lot of off-weekends throughout the year, and doesn't quite have the quality to beat Vettel over a season, never mind the rest of the grid.

Edited by Spillage, 24 September 2012 - 12:06.


#30 Jimisgod

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:32

Well he should have started learning it. Geezus, Princess Mary learnt Danish - said to be one of the most difficult languages for an adult to learn - from scratch. I'm sure Mark could have broadened his horizons and learnt some passable Italian.

I agree with the OP, Mark doesnt seem to have any real ambition these days. He speaks like a content number 2 who's rather happy living in England and having the factory just down the road.


I think he is trying to nudge RBR towards hiring Ricciardo. Dan isn't pulling driving stunts like Perez or a win like Pastor, but the car is markedly behind where it was last year and he seems to be pulling some pretty surprising qualifying times. The midfield is a whole lot closer to the front than last year, but TR has been left at the very rear and should be fighting for non points positions in a normal race sans DNFs. Where there have been DNFs recently, Dan almost finished 8th or 9th twice, but for the fuel issue.

#31 goldenboy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:40

I think he is trying to nudge RBR towards hiring Ricciardo.

really? seems to me he wants nothing to do with the red bull young driver program or helping dan, because quite frankly he doesn't need it as he is already top dog in that system. Good to see him helping out someone like mitch who needs it more though. From what I've gathered he's not even really a mentor to Dan. Not saying thats a bad thing at all, just what I've gathered myself.

I would seriously worry for any young drivers career that goes up against vettel (suicide!)

#32 Baddoer

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:53

He is too old

#33 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:42

He is too old


Nice silly age-ist comment. How old are you, 17?

If there's anyone on the grid over 30 who's in better physical shape than Webber, i'd be amazed. Any baggage Mark carries is mental, not physical.

#34 goldenboy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:43

Nice silly age-ist comment. How old are you, 17?

If there's anyone on the grid over 30 who's in better physical shape than Webber, i'd be amazed. Any baggage Mark carries is mental, not physical.

yes I think the age thing is the easiest comment/explanation to make without putting any thought into it. The truth is worse though!

#35 sailor

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:44

Nice silly age-ist comment. How old are you, 17?

If there's anyone on the grid over 30 who's in better physical shape than Webber, i'd be amazed. Any baggage Mark carries is mental, not physical.


Thats what the OP may have meant.

I agree that he is quite fit but at the same time doesnt appear very steely when it comes to drive to win. Perhaps age has weathered that down even if he is physically kickass.



#36 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:45

really? seems to me he wants nothing to do with the red bull young driver program or helping dan, because quite frankly he doesn't need it as he is already top dog in that system ..... From what I've gathered he's not even really a mentor to Dan. Not saying thats a bad thing at all, just what I've gathered myself.


Yeah i'd say it's pretty dog eat dog. Mark might be a proud Australian but I doubt he's about to start plugging the virtues of Danny Ric to RBR management or Dietrich, not when there's about 8 million reasons plus a pile of ego to try and keep his seat as long as possible.

#37 Seanspeed

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:54

As quick as anyone on his day, but he just doesn't have those days often enough and has too many tracks where he struggles at annually. He's very good, but just not quite the complete package to put up a stronger title challenge.

#38 Eff One 2002

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:03

There's been various mitigating circumstances that have contributed to Webber's lack of form lately that have already been mentioned, but it is true he also really has to pick up his game if he wants to be the WDC this year. It's probably going to be his last chance to ever do it....

#39 Rentta

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 04:10

Yeah i can't understand why his performance drops after signing :/
Also sadly he lost those few points in monza and singapore didn't work at all .

Edited by Rentta, 26 September 2012 - 04:14.


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#40 Kingshark

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 04:26

All I'm amazed to know is that apart from his 2 wins at Monaco and Silverstone he hasn't even been on the podium all season long! He's had 5 fourth places though, lol. :lol:

#41 bourbon

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 04:35

...On the other hand, Ferrari gave an offer to Webber... which he rejected. I still think he'll be the ultimate loser and kinda regret this decision when he retires. He's is getting beaten by Vettel now... so how would it have made any difference if he got beat by Alonso....


Getting beat isn't the point, having no hope is the point. He doesn't want to be in the situation of Barrichello or Massa.

Edited by bourbon, 26 September 2012 - 04:41.


#42 BackOnTop

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 04:40

There's been various mitigating circumstances that have contributed to Webber's lack of form lately that have already been mentioned, but it is true he also really has to pick up his game if he wants to be the WDC this year. It's probably going to be his last chance to ever do it....

Well, considering his car hasn't blownup/Mechanical failure during "Race Day" for almost 3 Years.... his performance has been really under par.

Compare that to how many times Vettel's car has self destructed while leading the race or on for a podium finish in the last 3 yeaars... it really puts Webber's performance into perspective.

Webber would have been thrashed in 2010 by Vettel if he hadn't lost close to 80 points due to the car.... and he is still being given a beating in 2012 even though Vettel has already lost close to 40 points due to mechanical failures on Sunday.

The car has not to blame as far as Webber is concerned. He has had a bullet proof/ really quick car for 3 years running, and he's still nowhere. All other mitigating circumstances gets "equal" overall to all other drivers over the season, so no excuse to be had here.

Edited by BackOnTop, 26 September 2012 - 04:43.


#43 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 05:08

Dan isn't pulling driving stunts like Perez or a win like Pastor, but the car is markedly behind where it was last year and he seems to be pulling some pretty surprising qualifying times.

The other possibility is that Toro Rosso has a driver line-up of 2 x Bruno Senna. All the team bosses will be worried about this unfortunately IMO. Unfortunately for Dan and Jean-Eric and any chances they might think they have of promotion be it to Red Bull or Sauber or Force India etc.


As to the young driver program I don't know, but I do recall Webber giving or loaning or at least facilitating for the likes of Will Power etc so they could get a budget to go racing. I can't see why he wouldn't suddenly be against the young drivers from the Tasman region, unless they are indeed after his seat!

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 26 September 2012 - 05:10.


#44 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 05:16

Webber would have been thrashed in 2010 by Vettel if he hadn't lost close to 80 points due to the car....

Quit generalizing like this please.

"Thrashing" implies Webber never ever beats Vettel, which is simply untrue. For instance Webber beat Vettel in Monaco this year, even though Vettel did not have a cracked chassis (indeed Vettel was missing in action, in the style of Felipe Webber ;) or Jenson "I have no temp" Button, and was 10 places behind his team-mate in qualifying off the top of my head... that's a thrashing in that session... but it's hardly something that can be generalised to somehow say that Webber thrashes Vettel in 2012... that would be ludicrous.

Webber fans are the first to admit that over a season Vettel tends to better, but the fact is Webber does and can beat Vettel sometimes. Just as Webber is missing in action in qually now, similarly Vettel was pretty terrible in a number of quallys early in the season, when Webber outqualified him a number of times.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 26 September 2012 - 05:17.


#45 Rentta

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:26

btw why did they pit webber in singapore after he had fastest sector ?

#46 DarkknightRises

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:29

btw why did they pit webber in singapore after he had fastest sector ?


trying to udnercut PDR....but miscalculated the traffic risk

#47 BackOnTop

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:32

Quit generalizing like this please.

"Thrashing" implies Webber never ever beats Vettel, which is simply untrue. For instance Webber beat Vettel in Monaco this year, even though Vettel did not have a cracked chassis (indeed Vettel was missing in action, in the style of Felipe Webber ;) or Jenson "I have no temp" Button, and was 10 places behind his team-mate in qualifying off the top of my head... that's a thrashing in that session... but it's hardly something that can be generalised to somehow say that Webber thrashes Vettel in 2012... that would be ludicrous.

Webber fans are the first to admit that over a season Vettel tends to better, but the fact is Webber does and can beat Vettel sometimes. Just as Webber is missing in action in qually now, similarly Vettel was pretty terrible in a number of quallys early in the season, when Webber outqualified him a number of times.

That,s the irritating part for me. Like Webber performing good at the beginning of the season as acknowleged in my opening post.... Then he loses the will & stamina as the season progresses.

Webber doesn't come across as mentaly tough when it comes to championship fights. He does well when heis fighting Vettel personally, but stands nowhere as soon as drivers in other cars starts to challenge RedBull. Case in point, Webber always baulks when other teams like Ferrari and Mclaren starts to put pressure even if he has a quick car under him.

In times like these, only drivers like Vettel, Hamilton and Raikkonen seem to up there game and challenge the Championship leader, in this case Alonso. Webber looks like a lost man as soon as Alonso overtook him Wdc leader in 2010, and he has done it again as soon as Alonso took the championship lead from him this year.

Edited by BackOnTop, 26 September 2012 - 12:44.


#48 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:57

In times like these, only drivers like Vettel, Hamilton and Raikkonen seem to up there game and challenge the Championship leader, in this case Alonso.

You are going to struggle to convince people with that I'm sorry to say, most people think Kimi is more similar to Jenson Button than Ayrton Senna, just check out the Kimi thread... a very large proportion think Kimi is quite good but simply not a true superstar, surely a true superstar would 'trash' Massa and not be slowed by Massa focussed car developments? :)

Raikkonen has a very good wdc position, but they didn't win when they were fast enough and they are not getting any faster IMO.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 26 September 2012 - 06:59.


#49 sosidge

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 08:20

Quit generalizing like this please.

"Thrashing" implies Webber never ever beats Vettel, which is simply untrue. For instance Webber beat Vettel in Monaco this year, even though Vettel did not have a cracked chassis (indeed Vettel was missing in action, in the style of Felipe Webber ;) or Jenson "I have no temp" Button, and was 10 places behind his team-mate in qualifying off the top of my head... that's a thrashing in that session... but it's hardly something that can be generalised to somehow say that Webber thrashes Vettel in 2012... that would be ludicrous.

Webber fans are the first to admit that over a season Vettel tends to better, but the fact is Webber does and can beat Vettel sometimes. Just as Webber is missing in action in qually now, similarly Vettel was pretty terrible in a number of quallys early in the season, when Webber outqualified him a number of times.


Funny how recollections of races differ. My memory is that Webber was holding up a 5 car train (which even included the REAL Felipe), whereas Vettel was one of only two people to actually put in the laptimes needed to get ahead of people through pit strategy. Considering Vettel was P6 and 12 seconds behind Webber early in the race, and P4 and 2 seconds behind Webber at the end of the race, I think you need to reasses who put in a better race performance.

I can only think of one race where Webber did a really good job on his own terms and took the win - and that was Silverstone this year. Perhaps that earned him a contract, but we can see what affect that contract has had on his performance.

#50 Smile17

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:08

It's frustrating to be a Mark Webber fan. In F1 chances come and go, but he seems to have none of it. And we all know the situation at Redbull isn't the best one to be in.