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Webber again loses stamina in Championship fight!


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#51 sosidge

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:13

It's frustrating to be a Mark Webber fan. In F1 chances come and go, but he seems to have none of it. And we all know the situation at Redbull isn't the best one to be in.


Oh please. Chance ended up serving him the 2010 WDC on a plate and he blew it. And Webber has signed up year after year for Red Bull - if the situation didn't suit him, he wouldn't stay.

The truth is he is an average driver who happened to be part of the furniture when one of the best funded operations in F1 took over his team. Without that takeover, he would never have had the GP wins and Pole Positions he will retire with. Webber lucked into a creditable Grand Prix career, he knows it, and he isn't going to give that seat up, despite his own whingeing and the whingeing of his fans.

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#52 BackOnTop

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:37

You are going to struggle to convince people with that I'm sorry to say, most people think Kimi is more similar to Jenson Button than Ayrton Senna, just check out the Kimi thread... a very large proportion think Kimi is quite good but simply not a true superstar, surely a true superstar would 'trash' Massa and not be slowed by Massa focussed car developments? :)

Raikkonen has a very good wdc position, but they didn't win when they were fast enough and they are not getting any faster IMO.

Kimi is like Button! Sorry, but I still can't stop laughing lol. Nice try.

7 consecutive podiums that included 4 wins in the last 7 races of 2007... And all you can come up with is Massa. Keep telling yourself that Kimi is average if it makes you feel better. Maybe you started watching F1 from 2008 onwards, can't blame you since you missed how Kimi harried Msc in 2003 & mr.eyebrows in 2005.

KImi has Button beat so far this season who has a car that has multiple consequetive Poles & Wins. Yeah, maybe you forget one bad season, in which he equalled the world record for most fastest lap in the season is comparable to Button. Again, nice try.

Edit- Kimi is not a superstar?? Lol.

Edited by BackOnTop, 26 September 2012 - 09:50.


#53 Atreiu

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 10:15

I've noticed that as well.
He's fast gritty and can pull some great races out of the bag a few times per year, but he considerably lacks the consistency for a season long fight. In 2010 he was massively helped by the RB5's incredible speed and pace and others' misfortunes. OTOH, he does score enough to help Red Bull in the WCC.
Like Barrichello but with a stronger personality, IMO. Which isn't to be ashamed of at all.

#54 BackOnTop

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 10:20

I've noticed that as well.
He's fast gritty and can pull some great races out of the bag a few times per year, but he considerably lacks the consistency for a season long fight. In 2010 he was massively helped by the RB5's incredible speed and pace and others' misfortunes. OTOH, he does score enough to help Red Bull in the WCC.
Like Barrichello but with a stronger personality, IMO. Which isn't to be ashamed of at all.

Webber does have a stronger personality that both Bari & Massa for sure. Thats the reason why I think he would have done well if he had mustered up the courage to leave his comfort zone & sign up with Ferrari.

Honestly, he just doesn't have it in him to sustain a championship season. So, he had nothing to lose. Now all he'll be remebered for is a decent driver, who got beat by a kid year in year out.

#55 karne

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 10:40

The car has not to blame as far as Webber is concerned. He has had a bullet proof/ really quick car for 3 years running, and he's still nowhere. All other mitigating circumstances gets "equal" overall to all other drivers over the season, so no excuse to be had here.


Get it through your skull! The car may not have blown up in 3 years. But it's also had VERY FEW WEEKENDS where it has been running 100%! KERS problems, DRS problems, gearbox problems, a broken diff FFS, even a frigging steering wheel problem, these are ALL problems that have afflicted Mark and ALL problems that are going to stop him from running at his 100% speed.

RBR have more to answer for for Mark's drop off after Silverstone than Mark has.

#56 ForeverF1

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 10:43

Get it through your skull! The car may not have blown up in 3 years. But it's also had VERY FEW WEEKENDS where it has been running 100%! KERS problems, DRS problems, gearbox problems, a broken diff FFS, even a frigging steering wheel problem, these are ALL problems that have afflicted Mark and ALL problems that are going to stop him from running at his 100% speed.

RBR have more to answer for for Mark's drop off after Silverstone than Mark has.


Calm down.

#57 noikeee

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 10:47

Oh please. Chance ended up serving him the 2010 WDC on a plate and he blew it. And Webber has signed up year after year for Red Bull - if the situation didn't suit him, he wouldn't stay.

The truth is he is an average driver who happened to be part of the furniture when one of the best funded operations in F1 took over his team. Without that takeover, he would never have had the GP wins and Pole Positions he will retire with. Webber lucked into a creditable Grand Prix career, he knows it, and he isn't going to give that seat up, despite his own whingeing and the whingeing of his fans.


That is very harsh. He may not be champion material but he's not "average" and didn't "luck into a top seat". The move to Red Bull came at the right timing, but there is a reason why earlier in his career Williams signed him to lead their team when they were still perceived as one of the big teams; whilst turning down an offer from Renault who were breaking in to the top and fate would have it they'd win the next 2 championships. Even these days he was wanted by Ferrari albeit only to be a #2.

The luck he had with Red Bull's climb to the top, was the luck that he lacked the previous 5 or 6 years. He had always been one of the most impressive midfield drivers (although often underestimated because that bloody Williams always DNFd when it shouldn't), and deemed as a good alternative for the top sides if they weren't able to land an established star. The career he has had is deserved.

Besides it's not like he's been blown away by the #1 driver. He ran very close in the title race to Vettel in 2010 and earlier in this season too. It's not like we're talking about an Eddie Irvine type driver, miles behind the #1 then given a massive lucky break to lead the team and nearly win a title by chance.

#58 Lights

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:01

I agree with the OP though. His recent performances are way off where he should be. Wondering what injury he's hiding this time.

Webber is always very strong in some weekends but he's never been consistent.

#59 BackOnTop

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:27

Get it through your skull! The car may not have blown up in 3 years. But it's also had VERY FEW WEEKENDS where it has been running 100%! KERS problems, DRS problems, gearbox problems, a broken diff FFS, even a frigging steering wheel problem, these are ALL problems that have afflicted Mark and ALL problems that are going to stop him from running at his 100% speed.

RBR have more to answer for for Mark's drop off after Silverstone than Mark has.

In 2012, Kimi Raikkonen has had:

-KERS Problems
-Differential Issues & Gear Box penalty
-Qualifying Errors (team didn't inform him about no time left/Australia)
-Major Team Strategic errors (China, Spain,Bahrain Qualifying & Race)
-Extra slow pit-stops (4.5 seconds in beginning 5 races), losing him track positions
-even a frigging steering wheel problem
-etc, etc, etc.

On top of it all, Kimi's driving a Lotus as compared to Multiple Poles & Race Winning Car that Mark Webber has.... and he's still getting a beating so far by Kimi, who's 3rd in the Championship to Webber's 5th.

If you need any proof, check out which team is leading the Constructors... and which team lies in 4th.

So spare me the team is screwing Mark Webber... as you'd notice the entire grid goes through such issues during a season. But getting beaten by a guy driving a car that's on & off compared to RBR who have a race winning/front running package for 75% of races... clearly shows that Webber is not a TOP driver as far as championships winning pedigree is concerned.

Sebastian Vettel has lost more points on race day due to car failure, than what you claim for Webber who has lost ZERO points because his car hasn't failed on race day for 3 years.

Edited by BackOnTop, 26 September 2012 - 12:48.


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#60 Dalton007

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 13:05

I think the car suited Webber in the early part of the season when Vettel was struggling.

#61 superuser

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 13:43

I think that Webber is very good driver, clearly underrated by many (perhaps with hidden agenda). I think that Webber is generally faster than Button (esp. in qualy) but less consistent than him. Webber should've took the Ferrari offer to show his real worth. I think that Alonso would've be unpleasantly surprised by Webber's speed. However, "Alonso is faster than you" will stop any decent driver from considering a Ferarri seat.

#62 BackOnTop

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 14:42

I think that Webber is very good driver, clearly underrated by many (perhaps with hidden agenda). I think that Webber is generally faster than Button (esp. in qualy) but less consistent than him. Webber should've took the Ferrari offer to show his real worth. I think that Alonso would've be unpleasantly surprised by Webber's speed. However, "Alonso is faster than you" will stop any decent driver from considering a Ferarri seat.

I think Webber could have beaten Button to the championship in that Brawn Gp, simply because Webber starts a season very well, and also because Button completely lost the plot in the second half of the season, in a period where Bari totally outclassed him. Simply put, Button performed really poorly in that period of pressure for many races, while Webber onlyseemed to go off the boil in the last 3-4 races in 2010.

So yeah, Button got saved by having an old bari, instead of a younger one.

Edited by BackOnTop, 26 September 2012 - 14:45.


#63 HoldenRT

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 15:18

Or, you know, maybe RED BULL are the ones who should pick up their game!

Since the contract:

- two gearbox change penalties in three races
- a broken diff (which he drove to the end of the race!)
- NO KERS 90% OF THE TIME
- ridiculous strategies that a two year old could have done better

And more.


I agree with these points but the sad thing is.. Webber himself has been shithouse. Everything 'Webber' has been shithouse. His car, his strategy.. everything. :mad:

#64 DarthWillie

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 15:26

I love the 90% no KERS stat. Very curious who made that up. I have never read anything about that. Somehow in the Webber threads all kinds of theories come up why he would be slower and suddenly without confirmation they're facts.

Gearboxes are true, no discussions, pit strategies I disagree with, some worked out, some didn't.

#65 HoldenRT

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 15:36

Yeah the 90% KERS stat is iffy.. but everything else I agreed with.. :lol:

#66 bub

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 15:48

.Honestly, he just doesn't have it in him to sustain a championship season. So, he had nothing to lose. Now all he'll be remebered for is a decent driver, who got beat by a kid year in year out.


And kid who is the 8th greatest f1 driver of all time according to the BBC.

#67 BackOnTop

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 16:42

And kid who is the 8th greatest f1 driver of all time according to the BBC.

Lol, thats what I mean.

Mark Webber had it in his own hands from not letting a kid become 8th greatest on BBC. He had it in his grasp, then Korea 2010 happened. Vettel emerged stronger after his car failed, while Webber went into mediocrity.

#68 goldenboy

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 23:34

I love the 90% no KERS stat. Very curious who made that up. I have never read anything about that. Somehow in the Webber threads all kinds of theories come up why he would be slower and suddenly without confirmation they're facts.

Gearboxes are true, no discussions, pit strategies I disagree with, some worked out, some didn't.

why don't you look at who posted it.

Edited by goldenboy, 26 September 2012 - 23:34.


#69 pingu666

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 00:21

webber has curiously little experience in winning (maybe fighting for?) titles at a junior level.

other f1 drivers typicaly have won/conteneded for titles in junior formula regularly

think mark bounced around and didnt have the right programs etc, but thats a possible reason for his late season form drop off

Edited by pingu666, 27 September 2012 - 00:21.


#70 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:09

Even the Webber fans - karne aside, who's a fanatic - have given up trying to defend the indefensible.

Even with the technical niggles / failures, Webber's dropped his bundle.

#71 sailor

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:31

Even the Webber fans - karne aside, who's a fanatic - have given up trying to defend the indefensible.

Even with the technical niggles / failures, Webber's dropped his bundle.


That certainly seems true.

Maybe the OP could have raised his concerns in MW thread itself without fear of being shouted down :cool: instead of opening this blatant bash thread.

I honestly dont see the point of a detractor opening such a thread. A MW fan - yes , i see why they may want to discuss their fav drivers issues .



#72 lbennie

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:50

he's basically going through a period like button was earlier on. (although button was even worse imo)

obviously not comfortable with the way the setup of the car has gone recently. it happens in motorsport, especially when car development (rightly) follows the other side of the garage.

those attacking him for not having the consistency to match vettel/alonso (2 of the all time greats imo) in these circumstances need to get a clue.


Edited by lbennie, 27 September 2012 - 02:09.


#73 Alfisti

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:17

He's had a lot go wrong this past 4 or 5 races but has not had the pace regardless.

#74 karne

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:28

obviously not comfortable with the way the setup of the car has gone recently. it happens in motorsport, especially when car development (rightly) follows the other side of the garage.


Why do you say rightly? It's not right that RBR downed tools and dashed to change the car for Vettel just because he threw a temper tantrum about it. Mark was ahead in the championship at the time. Should not HE have got a say? We know for a fact that if Mark is not comfortable in the car RBR don't rush to change things.

#75 Brother Fox

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:41

Who has the big flipping 1 on their car karne?

FWIW, I'd say a combination of bad luck and a drop off on form. Both need to change to give him any hope (which is all but nil anyway)

#76 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 04:09

Funny how recollections of races differ. My memory is that Webber was holding up a 5 car train (which even included the REAL Felipe),

As Sir Jack would say "Win by the slowest possible speed".;)

Isn't it amazing that Brabham was probably the first of the garagiste teams to be a full-house works operation akin to Ferrari (sure they were lower midpack to backmarkers who went broke not long after, but that's not important :p ), in that the Judd engine was basically a works Brabham engine, with the wonderful synergy between "Motor Racing Developments Ltd." and "Engine Developments Ltd."... even Lotus or McLaren have not reached that position despite their road car businesses. Quite remarkable achievement. Heck Lotus Cars is still needing to employ Brabham and Judd's company to made Indy engines, and not even bothering to pay them enough money to do it properly. :rolleyes:

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 27 September 2012 - 04:09.


#77 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 04:13

Mark Webber had it in his own hands from not letting a kid become 8th greatest on BBC. He had it in his grasp, then Korea 2010 happened. Vettel emerged stronger after his car failed, while Webber went into mediocrity.

It's not like Vettel and Alonso don't crash sometimes.

I recall Vettel stuffing it into the fence in Monaco.

I also recall Alonso spinning in qualifying trying to hustle the V8-powered Renault into the top 10.

Certainly Monza was a screw-up that's for sure! "Kerb 1, kerb 2, kerb 3... whack... oops too much kerb... oh dear... keep it out of the fence... bugger" :)

#78 Sakae

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 04:47

he's basically going through a period like button was earlier on. (although button was even worse imo)

obviously not comfortable with the way the setup of the car has gone recently. it happens in motorsport, especially when car development (rightly) follows the other side of the garage.

those attacking him for not having the consistency to match vettel/alonso (2 of the all time greats imo) in these circumstances need to get a clue.


When the same happens to Schumacher, half od the world population advises "grandpa" to retire. Underlined is really what only Webber's fans do believe, but hardly anyone else, as we have not see any differentials on the car. In fact, rotten luck Seb had this year made me suspicious at one point, that garage actually wanted Webber to win WDC as gift before his retirement. (Joking of course).

#79 lbennie

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 05:28

When the same happens to Schumacher, half od the world population advises "grandpa" to retire. Underlined is really what only Webber's fans do believe, but hardly anyone else, as we have not see any differentials on the car. In fact, rotten luck Seb had this year made me suspicious at one point, that garage actually wanted Webber to win WDC as gift before his retirement. (Joking of course).


hey?
it's common knowledge that, in any prototype series, car development follows the lead driver in the team. It is what you do if you want to be successful.

i don't know what this has to do with schumacher...





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#80 Sakae

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 05:34

hey? it's common knowledge that, in any prototype series, car development follows the lead driver in the team. It is what you do if you want to be successful.

I didn't know that.

i don't know what this has to do with schumacher...

I raised his name in relationship to your forgiving remark in your post as a comparative standard how some other drivers are being evaluated.

#81 lbennie

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 06:17

I raised his name in relationship to your forgiving remark in your post as a comparative standard how some other drivers are being evaluated.


But you don't know my opinion on michael, so how can you call me a hypocrite (that is what your point was, right?)
fwiw i think Michael is doing fine with the tools he is given.



#82 H2H

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:02


Maybe he will do well at Suzuka. He has been amazingly lucky by having a top car which gave him over three years the chance to finish every race he competed in. He had his fair share of mechanical issues which made some weekends far from smooth and he seems to struggle in the last races. So far it is a bit of the Mark we have seen over the years, fantastic at some races, decent at others and subpar in a couple.

I'm actually quite confident about the Japanese GP. It is a big change from the recent tracks and he should be more competitive then in Singapore.

#83 encircled

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:07

Yeah, I think Mark would be more competitive in Suzuka.

#84 Sakae

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:59

But you don't know my opinion on michael, so how can you call me a hypocrite (that is what your point was, right?)
fwiw i think Michael is doing fine with the tools he is given.

Sorry, but your deductive reasoning is not in line with what was actually posted. Do not take it personnally.

#85 Atreiu

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:19

Suzuka is the closest thing to Silverstone since Silverstone, actually.

#86 HoldenRT

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:35

Wild guessing and speculation.. and of course.. this problem could be a variety of factors.. but the main problem to me is either..

A - Since Webber has stopped having to fight for his 'F1 life' so to speak.. he has lost big part of his aggression/confidence/mojo and hasn't been as aggressive.. obviously gearbox penalties and shit strategies didn't help.

or

B - Since Redbull knew that they had secured Webber for another year.. Webber has been ignored by the team and treated as an ugly stepchild. A culture within the team that has gone from the top all the way down to the mechanics. Like a virus. This culture, combined with things like gearbox penalties has erroded Webber's confidence.. and turned him into his alter ego.. Felipe Webber. The pathetic unaggressive 'compliant' team player.

I honestly don't know which of these it is.. and as always this stuff is impossible to prove.. and easy to criticise on an internet forum.

The good thing about the Redbull problems in earlier seasons.. like the front wing or Turkey saga.. were that they were brought into the forefront and became impossible to deny. Right now though.. there is nothing at the forefront.. other than the fact.. that everything on Webber's side of the garage.. his reliability.. his strategies.. and his pace.. and even his demeanour to an extent.. are all full of failure.

It's like how a husband acts to a wife.. in terms of 'courting' but after they tie the knot and become married they become different people. There is no exact one thing you can pinpoint.. just an overall feeling and vibe between them.. and less of a willingness to make each other happy.

In Redbull's defense.. Webber has been pathetic in all but one race. Even in Singapore despite a bad strategy.. he showed nothing to me ALL WEEKEND.. that showed that he was anywhere near the pace of Vettel. Whether it was one lap pace.. long run pace.. overtaking cars after pitstops.. everything. It was like they were driving different cars. Vettel full of confidence and Webber a shell of his former self.

Edited by HoldenRT, 27 September 2012 - 11:37.


#87 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:32

...

A - Since Webber has stopped having to fight for his 'F1 life' so to speak.. he has lost big part of his aggression/confidence/mojo and hasn't been as aggressive.. obviously gearbox penalties and shit strategies didn't help.

or

B - Since Redbull knew that they had secured Webber for another year.. Webber has been ignored by the team and treated as an ugly stepchild. A culture within the team that has gone from the top all the way down to the mechanics. Like a virus. This culture, combined with things like gearbox penalties has erroded Webber's confidence.. and turned him into his alter ego.. Felipe Webber. The pathetic unaggressive 'compliant' team player.

...


or maybe the team have made a few small mistakes, and Mark has made a few small mistakes. The cumulative effect is a large drop in points collected at the races due to the small performance gaps between many cars this year.

I'm going to go with C.


#88 icecream

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:37

or maybe the team have made a few small mistakes, and Mark has made a few small mistakes. The cumulative effect is a large drop in points collected at the races due to the small performance gaps between many cars this year.

I'm going to go with C.



option C also gets my vote.


#89 swiniodzik

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 13:26

he's basically going through a period like button was earlier on. (although button was even worse imo)

obviously not comfortable with the way the setup of the car has gone recently. it happens in motorsport, especially when car development (rightly) follows the other side of the garage.

those attacking him for not having the consistency to match vettel/alonso (2 of the all time greats imo) in these circumstances need to get a clue.


It's true that while in 2010 Webber made mistakes under pressure, now his biggest problem seems to be the lack of pace. Vettel does look more comfortable with the car at the moment. When was the last time he really matched Seb on race pace? Must be Silverstone when he out-raced everybody there to take the win. He's looked slower consistently since then. Singapore has always been a bogey track for him but Spa quite the opposite, yet the difference and a rather significant one was also seen there.

After Silverstone there were some clarifications issued from the FIA after Red Bull was being reported to restrict engine power to improve traction through a non-linear relationship between throttle position and torque delivery. Could it be that those have turned the tables? That would make the car more twitchy at the rear on corner exit which, in theory, should benefit Vettel's more aggressive driving style.

Edited by swiniodzik, 27 September 2012 - 13:28.


#90 swiniodzik

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 13:58

Oh please. Chance ended up serving him the 2010 WDC on a plate and he blew it. And Webber has signed up year after year for Red Bull - if the situation didn't suit him, he wouldn't stay.

The truth is he is an average driver who happened to be part of the furniture when one of the best funded operations in F1 took over his team. Without that takeover, he would never have had the GP wins and Pole Positions he will retire with. Webber lucked into a creditable Grand Prix career, he knows it, and he isn't going to give that seat up, despite his own whingeing and the whingeing of his fans.


Wow. If Webber lucked into a creditable career thanks to Red Bull, did Vettel luck into his? Surely beating an average peddler and getting titles in cars which even that Average Joe can score poles and wins with isn't that much of an achievement.

The fact is that while Red Bull gave Webber the best cars of his career, they also gave him his toughest team-mate. So in a sense the Red Bull stint has actually been the continuation of bad luck he suffered earlier in his career. Compare that to Button and Brawn when the driver in the sister car happened to be Barrichello. Who knows what would have happened, had the 2009 rules change come a year earlier and Red Bull built their first winning car with Coulthard still alongside. I don't want to say Mark deserves a WDC or anything but your assessment of him is unfair.

He's achieved quite a lot in the days of what's been regarded by many as the most competitive and talented grid in the history of the sport - some heroic performances in uncompetitive and unreliable cars; some poles, wins and not-really-to-be-ashamed-of championship runs in top cars. Not bad I'd say. He may be lacking the consistency of the very best drivers and his off days can be shocking, but when he's on it he's got the speed to beat just anybody out there. Yes, these days don't come too often and he eventually comes short if you define success in simple WDC/non-WDC terms, but there can be no doubt Webber is better than average and has earned everything he's achieved.

Of course the above could more or less be also said for, say, Coulthard or Barrichello, and I agree. But that's not really pejorative. Some people treat these 'number two' drivers like they're inferior to the truly top dogs which just isn't true.

#91 Boxerevo

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 14:17

Mark Webber's kers has no stamina at all. :lol:

#92 HoldenRT

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 14:18

The problem is.. there has only been one race where I have thought that Webber deserved better in terms of his result. I mean.. where he drove well but was let down by team or strategy.

And he has had rookies and underachievers finishing in front of him. He is in a FRONT RUNNING car.. but he's been driving shithouse.. just like Felipe usually does.

He hasn't been in podium positions.. only to be let down by the car's reliability. He's been nowhere. In terms of qualifying pace.. race pace.. all of it.

Edited by HoldenRT, 27 September 2012 - 14:19.


#93 Dalton007

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 14:56

I think Webber could have beaten Button to the championship in that Brawn Gp, simply because Webber starts a season very well, and also because Button completely lost the plot in the second half of the season, in a period where Bari totally outclassed him. Simply put, Button performed really poorly in that period of pressure for many races, while Webber onlyseemed to go off the boil in the last 3-4 races in 2010.

So yeah, Button got saved by having an old bari, instead of a younger one.


I doubt it. Button was on fire in those six races. He was unbeatable.
Button, in the second half, was quick in the races but his qualy was a massive issue.

#94 icecream

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 20:44

The problem is.. there has only been one race where I have thought that Webber deserved better in terms of his result. I mean.. where he drove well but was let down by team or strategy.

And he has had rookies and underachievers finishing in front of him. He is in a FRONT RUNNING car.. but he's been driving shithouse.. just like Felipe usually does.

He hasn't been in podium positions.. only to be let down by the car's reliability. He's been nowhere. In terms of qualifying pace.. race pace.. all of it.


he has been pretty average in two races this year (monza & spa), otherwise he's been decent but perhaps not stellar in most.

pace wise, he hasn't been far off vettel in quali. singapore he was a fair bit off (0.6), monza he was only off by 0.1 (Q2 time), spa ahead by 0.25 (Q2), hungary behind by 0.3 (Q2), germany behind 0.5, GB ahead by 0.5, etc

so perhaps average, but i'd hardly say he's been shithouse. his races havent come together since GB, due to a combination of driver/equipment/strategy underperformance. let's not get too excited.

hoping for a better run in japan.

#95 Wheels23

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 05:28

I just think that Mark has a lot of tracks ahead of him that he isn't that great compared to Vettel.

Singapore he was never that flash, same can be said for Abu Dhabi but India and Korea are too early to tell as well as America.

Also Mark isn't as good as Vettel, that's obvious but it is just luck that gearbox issues are happening to him. Maybe the tide will turn and it will affect Seb soon, who knows.

Anyway Mark is still in the championship, anything can happen.

#96 GreenMachine

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:02

Mark needs to nail quali.

When he qualifies behind the wunderkind, he has no hope of being anything but the diagnostic car - how are the tyres, lets call Mark in and have a look; what is the prime strategy, we put Mark on a different strategy to cover our bets; we need to be ready for when Seb needs tyres/can be fed out into a gap, lets get Mark's stop out of the way first; ...

On the other hand, RBR really need to put two cars in front of Ferdy every time - it doesn't matter in what order at this stage, they just need to peg back his lead as fast and as far as possible. Seems to me they are concentrating on Seb's chase without getting the best results out of Mark.

#97 Wander

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 04:14

I've always seen Webber as a good second tier driver. If he was as good everywhere as he is in hist best tracks, he'd be a world champion already.

#98 Sith

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 05:42

I doubt it. Button was on fire in those six races. He was unbeatable.
Button, in the second half, was quick in the races but his qualy was a massive issue.


You got to be kidding Dalton007'??? Button is the best #2 driver out there at best... He'll never get close to competing for a title again... You can count on 1 hand how many more wins he'll collect for the rest of his career...

#99 Sith

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:04

Oh please. Chance ended up serving him the 2010 WDC on a plate and he blew it. And Webber has signed up year after year for Red Bull - if the situation didn't suit him, he wouldn't stay.

The truth is he is an average driver who happened to be part of the furniture when one of the best funded operations in F1 took over his team. Without that takeover, he would never have had the GP wins and Pole Positions he will retire with. Webber lucked into a creditable Grand Prix career, he knows it, and he isn't going to give that seat up, despite his own whingeing and the whingeing of his fans.


:up:

This is by far the most concise post that sums up Webber... He is just a good average driver... Had the WDC in his lap in 2010, then threw it away in Korea... Otherwise known as, "Diarrhea in Korea!!"