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Silver City Trophy - 1959


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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:06

I wonder if anyone can clear up a point about the entry for this event?

The F.1 cars are numbers from 1 up to 10, apparently, but this group includes Chris Summers and Ian Raby. What I am wondering is, were these two actually in full 2.5 litre Coopers or were they F.2 cars simply slotted into holes in the entry?

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#2 plutoman

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:20

I wonder if anyone can clear up a point about the entry for this event?

The F.1 cars are numbers from 1 up to 10, apparently, but this group includes Chris Summers and Ian Raby. What I am wondering is, were these two actually in full 2.5 litre Coopers or were they F.2 cars simply slotted into holes in the entry?


As far as I can make out from the Autosport race report, they were both F2s. Raby's car is described as a '1.7 litre Hume Cooper'.

#3 Alan Cox

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:23

The Black Book lists no. 9 and nos. 11-27 as being in the 1500cc/F2 class. Mr Sheldon confirms that Ian Raby (no. 8 - Cooper T43) was in the F1 class, and that it was running a 1.7 litre FPF placing it outside the F2 regs, while Chris Summers (no. 9) was in the F2 class.

#4 Barry Boor

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:58

Thank you.

I suppose I really should have made a Hume Cooper but it's too late now, 1959 is nearly over. :rolleyes:

#5 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:25

Have you seen this?

http://formula2.net/F259_25.htm

Vince H.

#6 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:16

Were 1.7-litre FPFs very common?

Edited by Roger Clark, 25 September 2012 - 06:17.


#7 Barry Boor

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:29

Yes, Vince, it's where I get all my F.2 entries, numbers etc etc etc from.

But it pays to check with people who have access to more information than what I got. (than that which I have).

Nobody is infallible but I'm told this Sheldon chappy is pretty good.

#8 Barry Boor

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:27

The start of this race must have been quite a sight because the grid lined up 5-4-5-4. I wouldn't mind betting that they all avoided running into one another.

#9 arttidesco

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:42

1959 is nearly over. :rolleyes:


I'll soon be celebrating my first Birthday :smoking:

#10 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:18

q
The start of this race must have been quite a sight because the grid lined up 5-4-5-4. I wouldn't mind betting that they all avoided running into one another.


Good point. Defensive weaving off the line wasn't 'on' then. In fact defensive driving involved maintaining a straight line with so many cars already abreast.

This wasn't so much discipline or sportsmanship as simple self-preservation...

DCN

#11 David McKinney

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:38

Were 1.7-litre FPFs very common?

There were quite a few 1700s and 1750s in 1957/58 - especially in the colonies, but also in UK libre racing

I guess it was the simplest overbore of the standard 1500, before the official 1960cc version became available

#12 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 13:50

The start of this race must have been quite a sight because the grid lined up 5-4-5-4. I wouldn't mind betting that they all avoided running into one another.

You'd lose. Raby's got sideways and was hit by Brian Whitehouse.

#13 Barry Boor

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 14:00

That can't be right - they finished 9th and 11th, respectively.  ;)

#14 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 15:00

There were quite a few 1700s and 1750s in 1957/58 - especially in the colonies, but also in UK libre racing

I guess it was the simplest overbore of the standard 1500, before the official 1960cc version became available

I hadn't heard of that. We're Climax involved or was it a private venture?

The bore of the 1960cc engine and the stroke of the original FPF would give 1670cc while the bore of the 2.2 would give 1764cc. is that how they did it? Presumably larger pistons and liners would be cheaper than a new crankshaft.

#15 Alan Cox

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 16:10

That can't be right - they finished 9th and 11th, respectively. ;)

Not according to the results on the F2 Register site, posted by Vince above.

#16 Barry Boor

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 16:16

We may be talking about two different races, Alan.

(check the wink on my post)

Although the same driver won both.

Edited by Barry Boor, 25 September 2012 - 16:17.


#17 David McKinney

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 16:34

I hadn't heard of that. We're Climax involved or was it a private venture?

The bore of the 1960cc engine and the stroke of the original FPF would give 1670cc while the bore of the 2.2 would give 1764cc. is that how they did it? Presumably larger pistons and liners would be cheaper than a new crankshaft.

I'm fairly sure the works/Walker 'F1' car ran a 1.7 engine in some 1957 races. McLaren had one (the same one?) for the following year's NZ internationals, and Dick Gibson another. When Brabham sold his 1960cc car to Merv Neil it was said the engine came "without Jack's special crankshaft", whereupon Neil entered it as 1750cc. He also raced it in England in 1958, and I think Gibson did the same with his car (both also had 1500 cars in England that year)

As to how the size was achieved, I don't know (apart from the Brabham/Neil reference above). I've just had a quick flick through DCN's Cooper Bible and can't find any explanation, though he does mention McLaren racing a '1.7' in NZ in January 1958


#18 nicanary

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:29

Good point. Defensive weaving off the line wasn't 'on' then. In fact defensive driving involved maintaining a straight line with so many cars already abreast.

This wasn't so much discipline or sportsmanship as simple self-preservation...

DCN


Wasn't there a dirt great cabbage field to the outside of Riches - best run-off area known to man, and an easy way to get an early crop.


#19 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 13:14

5-4 grids were commonplace at Snett in the 50s and early 60s. Pole position was actually right next to race control in the pit exit 'lane'. This F1 / F2 race was the warm up event for the Autosport 3-hours, although the race programme gives no mention at all of it being the 'Silver City' trophy race. I just love those old programmes, although in period the covers must have been a bit tedious, every meeting had the same Cavendish Morton artwork, with a new image by him for each season. Great to hear that a BRM P25 will be back at Snetterton at the VSCC at the weekend, astonishingly, the first time the club has been to the Norfolk venue. I wonder when the last time one of those BRM's appeared there? It will also be good to see David Morris and ERA R11B 'Humphrey', the same car that won Snetterton's inaugural event, an AMOC sprint in October '51 driven by Wharton.
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#20 D-Type

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 13:19

Is the capacity of the Bruce Halford / Horace Gould 250F incorrect? Or had it been rebored so often by then?

Edited by D-Type, 26 September 2012 - 13:20.


#21 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 13:29

As that car was chassis 2514 I suspect the programme compilers picked the wrong number off the entry form. :lol:

#22 Barry Boor

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 07:32

Andrew, thank you so much for showing us the programme from this race - sadly, about three days too late for my race.

Still, I wasn't far out on the cars.... Two are wrong - Raby's car is a T.45 and white (I've already explained that one) but Trevor Taylor's Cooper black? That's a surprise because earlier in 1959 it was green with white stripes down the tip of the nose. So my Taylor car is green.

I take issue with the programme on the Twisk Cooper. I have a colour picture of it somewhere and the 'other' colour is clearly orange, which given his nationality, seems likely. A b&w picture from Motor Sport earlier in the year shows the Gilby Cooper as having the silver sections that you can see on #20. Ditto the red on the Parnell car.

My entry did not include Stan Hart (not listed on the programme) because I simply did not have a car for him, but did include John Campbell-Jones (#26) who also does not appear on Andrew's list.

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Following some discussion with Andrew a while back, I drew up my Snetterton based on the line of the circuit that I had drawn on Google Earth. The angle of the picture tends to foreshorten the run up to and from the hairpin but I was very happy with the circuit.

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Thanks for the help, Andrew.

Edited by Barry Boor, 27 September 2012 - 07:37.


#23 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:56

Super...put the pics on FB Barry. Snetterton friends will like that.

#24 RTH

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 17:04

Autosport 1s 6d or 8p a week it is 35 times that now , those were the days. If average wages had gone up like that everyone would be taking home £1000 a week now. No wonder magazine circulation has dropped off so much since then , ironically computer layouts and high speed printing have made such amazing technological progress vastly reducing labour costs in the period to now..

#25 Alan Cox

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 17:28

Autosport 1s 6d or 8p a week it is 35 times that now , those were the days. If average wages had gone up like that everyone would be taking home £1000 a week now. No wonder magazine circulation has dropped off so much since then , ironically computer layouts and high speed printing have made such amazing technological progress vastly reducing labour costs in the period to now..

I recall that when I first began buying Motoring News it was 6d, while Autosport cost 2/6, 5 times the price. I couldn't afford Autorport for many years until I started work. I note that the ratio between them today is 1:1.15. How come there is so little price difference these days?

#26 Geoff E

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 17:29

Autosport 1s 6d or 8p a week it is 35 times that now , those were the days. If average wages had gone up like that everyone would be taking home £1000 a week now. No wonder magazine circulation has dropped off so much since then , ironically computer layouts and high speed printing have made such amazing technological progress vastly reducing labour costs in the period to now..


Average wage (whatever that means) was under £900 in 1959 http://uk.answers.ya...15071014AA4sFWm

It seems to be over 40 times as much today. :)


#27 Rob29

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:02

Back to thread title;I think this was the first Snetterton race I ever saw (on black & white TV)following Oulton Park Gold Cup the previous weekend I think.
Motoring News was 4d when I first bought it-now get 'Motorsport News'
online.

#28 DogEarred

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:30

Anybody know the significance or provenance of the 'Silver City Trophy'?

I know Aberdeen is called the 'Silver City'.

Any connection with McSnetterton?

#29 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:40

I always assumed that the race was sponsored/supported by Silver City Airways, but I don't know definitely:

Silver City Airways (Wiki)

#30 arttidesco

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:18

Average wage (whatever that means) was under £900 in 1959 http://uk.answers.ya...15071014AA4sFWm

It seems to be over 40 times as much today. :)


We can indeed quibble about how much more we earn now but I bet the amount each individual spends on taxes income, council, purchase and or value added is much higher again, this might be why everyone feels poorer and magazine sales are down.

#31 David McKinney

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:38

I always assumed that the race was sponsored/supported by Silver City Airways, but I don't know definitely:

ISTR there was a Silver City Trophy race at Brands (or was it Silverstone?) in the same period


#32 Barry Boor

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:04

Wasn't the opening race on the new Grand Prix circuit at Brands in 1960 a Silver City Trophy?

#33 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:39

Back to thread title;I think this was the first Snetterton race I ever saw (on black & white TV)following Oulton Park Gold Cup the previous weekend I think.
Motoring News was 4d when I first bought it-now get 'Motorsport News'
online.

The first televised race from Snetterton was the 1961 Lombank Trophy, won by Black Jack in Tommy Atkins' Intercontinental 2.5 Cooper. That TV coverage you can see here: http://www.eafa.org....atalogue/213370

Edited by Andrew Kitson, 28 September 2012 - 10:41.


#34 Alan Cox

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:10

I always assumed that the race was sponsored/supported by Silver City Airways, but I don't know definitely:

ISTR there was a Silver City Trophy race at Brands (or was it Silverstone?) in the same period

It was, indeed, sponsored by the airline and there were also a number of races at Brands of the same name. I think Shane Summers' fatal accident was during practice for the 1961 race.

Edited by Alan Cox, 28 September 2012 - 13:13.


#35 Barry Boor

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:43

Yes, it was. Dad and I saw the car go off at Paddock Bend although we were way over at the beginning of Clearways. It didn't look like a serious accident.....