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IndyCar for 2013, it's official.


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#101 Prost1997T

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 14:21

yeah I heard that- Ganassi has stated he's not involved. Apparently it's George, Barnes and Kalkohven. If TG takes charge again IndyCar then I'm done with it- I couldn't watch the IRL and wouldn't watch whatever the Idiot's vision for his new series would be either


Will people ever stop whining about TG in Indycar discussions? Time to move on don't you think? Indycar isn't for sale, did you not read the full article?

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#102 sblick

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 14:42

Will people ever stop whining about TG in Indycar discussions? Time to move on don't you think? Indycar isn't for sale, did you not read the full article?


everyone involved has denied this except TG please move on

#103 Craigster

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:54

everyone involved has denied this except TG please move on

Where are these reports coming from and why are they starting? What does TG have to gain when they prove to be false and get slammed for being untrue??

#104 djparky

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:45

Will people ever stop whining about TG in Indycar discussions? Time to move on don't you think? Indycar isn't for sale, did you not read the full article?



I've read the full report and the stuff on the Speed website about it as well- I'm not a TG fan (to put mildly)- hence my comment- but anyway IMS has denied (again) the series is for sale- so it's probably more wishful thinking on TG's part than anything else

Edited by djparky, 13 October 2012 - 20:46.


#105 Red17

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:50

Run for the hills! :cry:

http://www.indystar....xt|IndyStar.com

More like, run him to the hills. Totally mindless. People running Indycar would not be THAT stupid.



Right? :confused:

#106 Risil

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:13

Right? :confused:


Sadly it seems the story is gathering momentum. I dread to think how George and his people would've handled the near-fiasco that was the DW12 at the start of the year. Or the turbocharger disputes between Honda and Chevy in the early part of the season.

#107 Option1

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 15:37

This quote from the story:

At that moment, it’s all about whether Tony George should lead U.S. open-wheel racing again, and believe me, there are very strong opinions on both sides


How the f*** could anybody of sane mind think having that f***knuckle back in charge would be a good idea??

#108 Risil

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 15:47

Well let's see. Tony George probably thinks it's a good idea. Maybe Brian Barnhart misses being able to tell Indy qualifiers to give him four good ones. And then there are the Indy 500 traditionalists who see the rest of the series as some sort of curious and hardly necessary add-on to the main event, a bit like the Legion of Super-Pets. I'm not sure what they want.

Edited by Risil, 16 October 2012 - 15:47.


#109 Option1

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 17:33

Well let's see. Tony George probably thinks it's a good idea. Maybe Brian Barnhart misses being able to tell Indy qualifiers to give him four good ones. And then there are the Indy 500 traditionalists who see the rest of the series as some sort of curious and hardly necessary add-on to the main event, a bit like the Legion of Super-Pets. I'm not sure what they want.

I did say "of sane mind." ;) :lol:

Neil

#110 Xpat

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 18:42

It's amazing the number of people who think there are too many damn road courses and not enough ovals. The only way in their mind to bring ovals back, because ovals are exciting and road courses are some boring European bullshit, is to bring back TG. To them it has nothing to do with the fact that, other than the Indianapolis 500, ovals aren't as well attended and don't make money for promoters. Primogeniture is one of the dumbest ways of running a business but the hardcore traditionalists around here aren't the brightest bunch anyway.

#111 Bob Riebe

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:34

I have no love for George as he crapped on his own parade, yet the IRL survived and CART went belly up.

That speaks for itself.

#112 Rob

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:16

I have no love for George as he crapped on his own parade, yet the IRL survived and CART went belly up.

That speaks for itself.

I thought that was more because he was paying vast subsidies to the big teams as an incentive to stay with the IRL.

#113 Laster

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 14:00

I'd be quite happy if the series went to Mugello, it's a track Rubens has more experience on than all the other drivers combined.

Edited by Laster, 17 October 2012 - 14:00.


#114 Prost1997T

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 15:29

I'd be quite happy if the series went to Mugello, it's a track Rubens has more experience on than all the other drivers combined.


He seemed to do fine at Baltimore with no experience, or Sonoma\Sears Point\Infineon with limited testing.

#115 montoyasminion

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 17:37

Summerton was relatively decent in his outings for RLL in the BMW M3 GTs in ALMS this year as far as I'm aware. He's racing for them again at Petit Le Mans.

He's the only American I ever saw win an A1GP race.

#116 loki

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 18:06

I have no love for George as he crapped on his own parade, yet the IRL survived and CART went belly up.

That speaks for itself.


The IRL survived because of IMS/Hulman family money. They lost tens, perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars and damaged a marquee Hulman brand in the butchering of the 500. Unless Kathi, Josie and Nancy leave the board, there is no way they'll sell the series back to their brother.


#117 Bloggsworth

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 18:41

It's amazing the number of people who think there are too many damn road courses and not enough ovals. The only way in their mind to bring ovals back, because ovals are exciting and road courses are some boring European bullshit, is to bring back TG. To them it has nothing to do with the fact that, other than the Indianapolis 500, ovals aren't as well attended and don't make money for promoters. Primogeniture is one of the dumbest ways of running a business but the hardcore traditionalists around here aren't the brightest bunch anyway.



Did you take lessons in both patronising and insulting people? I'm English living in England, so there's nothing die-hard traditionalist in me. InyCars are rubbish on road courses, I've seen more racing action on a wet Friday at Hyde Park Corner; on ovals they are exciting, they are in their element - It's a racing thing, and that's what interests me, I have no interest in spectator numbers. Indycars need a serrious redesign for road courses, plus another couple of hundred horses under the bonnet, so that they are seriously difficult to drive in order that mediocre drivers can't wander in and be semi-competetive and trip up the quality in the field. Wheat from the chavs; a significant proportion of the field is made up from drivers who have failed in other formulae.

#118 Muppetmad

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 18:45

I'll admit the road course races were far better this year than they were last year, but I still think that some more ovals are needed just for a sense of balance and variety.

Oh, and I'm English too, and only started following IndyCars in 2009.

#119 TimRTC

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 19:43

I'd be quite happy if the series went to Mugello, it's a track Rubens has more experience on than all the other drivers combined.


Wherever in Europe they decide on, I'll be there. :clap:

(Although Donington Park would certainly be the easiest venue to get to)

Edited by TimRTC, 17 October 2012 - 19:43.


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#120 Xpat

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 00:13

Did you take lessons in both patronising and insulting people? I'm English living in England, so there's nothing die-hard traditionalist in me. InyCars are rubbish on road courses, I've seen more racing action on a wet Friday at Hyde Park Corner; on ovals they are exciting, they are in their element - It's a racing thing, and that's what interests me, I have no interest in spectator numbers. Indycars need a serrious redesign for road courses, plus another couple of hundred horses under the bonnet, so that they are seriously difficult to drive in order that mediocre drivers can't wander in and be semi-competetive and trip up the quality in the field. Wheat from the chavs; a significant proportion of the field is made up from drivers who have failed in other formulae.


Indeed. That is why you are not a race promoter. The people who have to put up the money to hold the race you watch on tv and on which you comment here like to have people come to their venue and pay to watch the race. See, they need to make money. The crowds are generally better at the road courses. You can't just have a race at an oval for the hell of it. You need a promoter and an agreement with the track and sponsors ect... If you don't then no race. I am sure IndyCar would love more ovals, they would love any kind of race. Do I really need to explain this to you?

The traditionalists I am talking about are people in and around the Midwest of the USA. The ones who would gather to watch 2 or more OAP's race their wheelchairs as long as they did it on an oval. These folks are adamant in their dislike of road racing. They won't say it is boring (or that the cars are rubbish on road courses), they will say it is, "boring European crap and this ain't no F1." (note the use of the word that isn't a word and a double negative, hallmarks of the traditionalist I was referring to) I love oval racing. I live in Indianapolis where the greatest oval track in the world is located and I have watched close to 50 races there just on the oval. But the series needs to survive and it can't do that at this point by propping up oval tracks/races when the crowds aren't there. Feel free to motor over to LHR and jet over and do a tour of the oval races on the calendar. You attendance would be appreciated. If you pop in for the Indianapolis 500 I would be happy to set you up with a ticket or two and show you around.

Believe it or not, I have not had formal training in insulting and patronising.

#121 Lemnpiper

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:15



Perhaps one day during the upcoming winter when all the major auto racing series are somewhat dormant in regards to track action , the more knowledgable in this forum should get involved in a thread to explain just how much it fiscally costs to participate in each series.

Promotor costs, Ownership of a racing team cost, sponsor costs the cost of fans to attend if they choose to do so , all play a part in how the schedules are drawn up.And sadly many like me having no knowledge of those costs often sit back and looks at amazement when the bickering over what circuits are the best develope.

If certain road/street course help keep the overall fiscal health of any series alive better than ovals , then the wise thing to do would at least accept them for what they are til the ovals of circuit can become the moneymaker for the series.To not do so runs the risk of the majority if not all of the series ceasing operations.And if ovals never do become the moneymaking backbone of the circuit then you need to ask yourself why .

Btw i perfer ovals ,but after attending Baltimore in sept i now better understand why some perfer road/street course races more . And i believe many others should give all versions a try before becoming so determined that "your" favorite choice of circuit is the only way to go.

The BOTTOM LINE is you need a viable product presented in a viable way to maintain a large enough audience at the track and for the tv broadcasts for any aseries to survive now in a very competitive world that is sports coverage.
And i fear squabblers over which type of circuits is the best obscures many to the fact some forms of auto racing on tv get crushed in the rating by other sports. And that is no way to build up the fan base.



Paul






#122 loki

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:09

Believe it or not, I have not had formal training in insulting and patronising.


:rotfl: :rotfl:

So it comes naturally then?

FWIW, I found nothing patronizing or insulting about your post. I think it's a good observation on what IndyCar faces going forward. The glory days of IndyCar/CART are about driver diversity. Ovals, and not just cookie cutter mile and a half but big ovals like Fontana and Michigan. Street circuits where people join for a weekend festival. Traditional road circuits, though it is difficult these days to get anyone but the diehards out there.

Versatility is what drove the popularity of the sport in the 80s and 90s. Some purists are stuck in 30-40 year old thinking where it revolved around USAC sprints on short dirt tracks. It's not that way now and really wasn't that way even back in the day.


#123 Prost1997T

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 07:07

plus another couple of hundred horses under the bonnet


Costs. Did you not notice the number of engine changes this season?

so that they are seriously difficult to drive in order that mediocre drivers can't wander in and be semi-competitive and trip up the quality in the field.


Which ones were not competitive? The field mostly consists of CART\CCWS refugees with a few ex-F1 drivers and I wouldn't call those mediocre. F1 isn't exactly the pinnacle of driver talent with people like Bruno Senna and Pastor Maldonado in it so take your pointless snobbery elsewhere.

Wheat from the chavs; a significant proportion of the field is made up from drivers who have failed in other formulae.


If you mean the likes of Conway...he was classified 21st, hardly "semi-competitive".

Edited by Prost1997T, 18 October 2012 - 07:07.


#124 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 14:44

Indycar...in space :cool:



...and I thought I was joking when I made that comment about Indycar in space

http://www.indycar.c...ndyCar-in-space

;)

Edited by PayasYouRace, 18 October 2012 - 14:45.


#125 DanicaFan

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 14:51

My take on the 2013 Indycar schedule.....Disappointing again.

You have 10 road/streets and 6 ovals. This should be the other way around or at least 50/50. This "doubleheader" is just another Bernard gimmick because he couldnt get more venues unfortunately. The schedule says 19 races but in reality its only 16 venues, or 16 races.

#126 Prost1997T

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 15:37

My take on the 2013 Indycar schedule.....Disappointing again.

You have 10 road/streets and 6 ovals. This should be the other way around or at least 50/50.


As far as I can tell, some venues are not willing to pay the current sanction fee (which is needed to keep the series healthy, unless you want to decimate the grid). Besides, there's a problem with ISC and Nascar on top of that, so how would you attract enough fans in the long run to make them a stable proposition?

Bernard is trying to market the series: I've seen pictures of an Indycar stand (complete with model car and IZOD girls) as far out as Santiago, Chile, the youtube channel which is regularly updated, and you've even got the NASA tie-in now.

Edited by Prost1997T, 18 October 2012 - 15:40.


#127 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 15:45

My take on the 2013 Indycar schedule.....Disappointing again.

You have 10 road/streets and 6 ovals. This should be the other way around or at least 50/50. This "doubleheader" is just another Bernard gimmick because he couldnt get more venues unfortunately. The schedule says 19 races but in reality its only 16 venues, or 16 races.



But there will be 19 televised, full-distance, full points events.

#128 racinggeek

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 16:46

I have no love for George as he crapped on his own parade, yet the IRL survived and CART went belly up.

That speaks for itself.


TG reportedly not only subsidized a number of teams, as noted earlier, he did so by (allegedly) raiding the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and Hulman & Co. kitties, which is why his own family took IRL and the IMS presidency away from him. IRL was never a self-sustaining operation.

#129 Woody3says

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 22:46

TG has officially resigned from the board in order to continue with plans to buy out indycar......

The final bullet to a dying animal is now secure. What a !€#%&! tool.

Email: imspr@brickyard.com I just let them know my feelings on this.

Edited by Woody3says, 19 October 2012 - 23:02.


#130 Xpat

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 00:43

http://www.indystar....;nclick_check=1



#131 Jim Thurman

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 03:58

http://www.indystar....;nclick_check=1

Deja vu. We all know what happened last time Mr. George resigned from a board.

Strange, I'm not aware of any drivers being pushed by stepfathers and/or television production companies/networks. Then again, the showcases for that sort of thing are no longer on the air.

#132 Victor_RO

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:17

http://www.indystar....;nclick_check=1


Don't like the sound of this. At all. And just as the series actually caught my interest this year by having a good season.

#133 Ali_G

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:56

I have no love for George as he crapped on his own parade, yet the IRL survived and CART went belly up.

That speaks for itself.


Any how much did the IRL cost IMS in terms of subsidies. Estimates put it at around $1 Billion.

#134 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 10:11

I don't understand the logic behind this. Is this all to replace Randy Bernard? Because buying the series MAKES YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR IT and why would you want that?

You spend all that money, get control, and then... ?

And hasn't he said recently he's not interested in being CEO and/or running it day to day? So you're buying it to... ?

#135 Dolph

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 10:50

I don't understand the logic behind this. Is this all to replace Randy Bernard? Because buying the series MAKES YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR IT and why would you want that?

You spend all that money, get control, and then... ?

And hasn't he said recently he's not interested in being CEO and/or running it day to day? So you're buying it to... ?


Because he wants it and thinks he can do a better job?

#136 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 11:04

But if he's not going to be running it, but mainly owning it?

#137 Xpat

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 14:06

Oh, he will try to run it.

#138 Jim Thurman

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 16:24

If he can't get control of the series, does he start a competing series? That's what happened when he resigned from the CART board (albeit some months later, when there seemed a sense of ahem urgency).

#139 Rob

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 16:52

If Tony George buys IndyCar then the teams should pull out and reform CART. George is not smart enough to run a successful series. He'd rather run it into the ground than have someone else keep it alive. He sees it as his baby and that is dangerous.

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#140 Jimisgod

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 16:55

By now, I'm pretty convinced TG only exists to make Bernie look sane. If that is possible.

#141 Risil

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 17:19

If Tony George buys IndyCar then the teams should pull out and reform CART. George is not smart enough to run a successful series. He'd rather run it into the ground than have someone else keep it alive. He sees it as his baby and that is dangerous.


The teams should try to raise the money to outbid George and Kalkhoven and buy the series themselves. They won't be able to run a successful championship without the Indy 500.

#142 ensign14

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 17:22

I have no love for George as he crapped on his own parade, yet the IRL survived and CART went belly up.

That speaks for itself.

Well, the CART owners made a fortune palming off the series to moneymarks, went to the IRL with a golden handshake and then ran TG off. Sounds to me the CARTisans won that one.

#143 Xpat

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 17:49

Both CART and the old IRL leadership have a proven track record of incompetence. Someone clued in on this and hired someone from the outside with some brains and business sense (Randy Bernard) and things started to look up. New chassis, new engine suppliers, potential aero kits, competent chief steward, ect... As things are beginning to look up the morons who ballsed the whole thing up in the first place want to take over, because they couldn't f@#$ it up again could they? With egos like this you will never get them to admit that THEY were the problem. That sort of critical introspection doesn't happen with these guys.

As I said in a previous post there are a lot of folks in my neck of the woods who think the balance between ovals and road courses is all wrong. They are certain that Tony George is the only man to correct that.

#144 Dolph

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 17:58

But if he's not going to be running it, but mainly owning it?


So he is not getting his hands dirty. He still tells them what his general direction is. If he owns he co-decides the main strategy. The CEO will make it happen.

#145 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 18:11

Well, the CART owners made a fortune palming off the series to moneymarks, went to the IRL with a golden handshake and then ran TG off. Sounds to me the CARTisans won that one.


I think a lot of people burned up their stock money keeping their teams running until 2008.

#146 Risil

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 18:27

I think a lot of people burned up their stock money keeping their teams running until 2008.


Well they may have been greedy team owners, but they were still racers. ;)

#147 Ali_G

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 22:49

If Tony George buys IndyCar then the teams should pull out and reform CART. George is not smart enough to run a successful series. He'd rather run it into the ground than have someone else keep it alive. He sees it as his baby and that is dangerous.


The difference here is that IMS would side with the team owners over their own flesh and blood this time.

#148 Ali_G

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 22:51

By now, I'm pretty convinced TG only exists to make Bernie look sane. If that is possible.


It's often been said that George was manipulated into creating the IRL by Ecclestone and Bill France Jr. God knows, NASCAR gained hugely in the USA and F1 saw a potential competitor go into near collapse.

#149 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 23:14

The difference here is that IMS would side with the team owners over their own flesh and blood this time.



We'll find out when they respond to the bid.

#150 racinggeek

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:11

Well, the CART owners made a fortune palming off the series to moneymarks, went to the IRL with a golden handshake and then ran TG off. Sounds to me the CARTisans won that one.


Not really -- it was TG's own family who ran him off, because they (as board members of Hulman and Co., which owns the Speedway and IndyCar) got tired of TG raiding the IMS piggy bank to keep the series alive. Really makes you wonder why they'd even think about letting him back in.