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IndyCar for 2013, it's official.


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#151 Jimisgod

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:49

It's often been said that George was manipulated into creating the IRL by Ecclestone and Bill France Jr. God knows, NASCAR gained hugely in the USA and F1 saw a potential competitor go into near collapse.


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Edited by Jimisgod, 21 October 2012 - 01:51.


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#152 Woody3says

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:01

Not really -- it was TG's own family who ran him off, because they (as board members of Hulman and Co., which owns the Speedway and IndyCar) got tired of TG raiding the IMS piggy bank to keep the series alive. Really makes you wonder why they'd even think about letting him back in.

It's the same psychology as the mother of a serial killer who can't see what her boy grew up to be. "He was always such a sweet boy. My Johnny would NEVER do those horrible things!"

I'm afraid we will find out for the worst just how bad round #2 of AOWR suicide can get. Too bad TG hasn't picked up the usual rich spoilt kid hobbies, like snorting coke and crashing Enzos...

#153 Jim Thurman

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 06:13

It's often been said that George was manipulated into creating the IRL by Ecclestone and Bill France Jr. God knows, NASCAR gained hugely in the USA and F1 saw a potential competitor go into near collapse.

I'm of the belief that George was manipulated into creating the IRL, but not by Bernie and Bill Jr..

Though, I also don't feel that good things came of times when the three of them were seen together, likely comparing notes (I refer to it as "The Day The Racing Died") and France certainly assisted the IRL in providing them places to race. One well known racing writer insists that Bill France Jr. helped pay for the IRL and contributed money.

#154 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 11:24

If they raced at a Daytona owned track and had a sanction fee, yeah 'Bill France contributed money' but I don't think they directly got involved. They didn't need to from their own perspective, and 'Indycar' was doing enough damage on its own.

#155 Jim Thurman

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 17:14

If they raced at a Daytona owned track and had a sanction fee, yeah 'Bill France contributed money' but I don't think they directly got involved. They didn't need to from their own perspective, and 'Indycar' was doing enough damage on its own.

Those are pretty much my thoughts as well. Simply mentioning that there is one racing writer who adamantly believes the France family funded. Personally, I think the Hulman-George family funded it

Though with NASCAR's buying, or attempting to buy, many racing series in the mid-90's - and starting competing series if failing, I can understand why some wonder about it. NASCAR's attempted hostile takeover of racing in the mid-90's isn't conspiracy or fantasy, it went on. They bought out several stock car series and attempted to buy IMSA and USAC.

#156 Jim Thurman

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 17:16

This popped into my head...

The IRL is Tony George's legacy.

He failed once.

Now he wants to get it back...

so, he can fail again on his own terms :lol:

#157 MattPete

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 17:43

I posted this 11 years ago:

A blurb from the past (man, I can't belive it's 11 years since I first read this):

[Autoweek, July 30, 1990; page 50-51]

If Tony George wanted to get people's attention by trabveling to Europle to meet with FISA's Jean-Marie Balestre and Bernie Ecclestone, he's certainly acheieved his goal....

One thing is clear, however. Everybody connected with Indycar racing has their own views about what the new cosiness between IMS and FISA protends. Some believe it's but the first tangible step in a bold outflanking maneuver by FISA and IMS, one that will see CART all but frozen out of the most important Indycar race of them all--the Indy 500--amidst the creation of a FISA/IMS sanctioned series of three to five major international 500-mile oval-track races.

..."We didn't go with any specific agenda," said Donaldson [IMS marketing VP]. "We wanted to meet with Jean-Marie Balestre and Bernie Ecclestone to gain as much knowledge about F1 as possible. We talked with Mr. Balestre about our plans to build an oval in Japan and hold an Indycar race there. The internation oval series concept came out of those discussions."

In theory, the series in question would feature flat-bottom single-seaters powered by 3.5-liter, normally aspirated engines. Much the same package as F1 and also attractive to manufacturers building 3.5-liter engines for Group C (see page 55).
...
Of course, many observers see Tony George as the proverbial innocent abroad--particularly when he's meeting to discuss the possible future of the Indy 500 with an experienced and shrewed a man as Ecclestone. The worry that Ecclestone is far less concerned with the concept of three or four international oval races than he is with derailing CART. And if he can use George to his ends, then so be it.



Make of it what you will. But I also seem to remember in a later Autoweek that F1 was discussing running stepped-bottom so that their cars would have an easier time on the oval banking. A few years later, in the name of "safety", we get stepped-bottoms. Coincidence?



#158 Ali_G

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 17:59

I have absolutely no doubt that all that the likes of Ecclestone and Bill France put this idea into TD's mind. To hear that Balestre was involved only makes me more convinced.

#159 Woody3says

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 19:29

I have absolutely no doubt that all that the likes of Ecclestone and Bill France put this idea into TD's mind. To hear that Balestre was involved only makes me more convinced.

I think there's little doubt that if TG wasn't lead towards water (forming IRL) that it didn't take much stroking of his ego for him to think it up himself. Indycar is still barely alive but it is finally on an ever so slight uphill climb. The absolute worst time to pull another stunt like this! I think TG has/had a birdie in his ear again.

I'm going to go a bit OT here but it'll make a full circle (I hope!) so hear me out....

This is quoted from a sportscar forum:
"Canada ALMS Fan over at Ten Tenths said that he had heard from certain team owner that the class structure might be

DP as the main class with spec tires
LMPC as the secondary class with spec tires
GT* as the third (single GT) class with open tire formula

* Not sure in what form - probably just GTE but maybe GA-GT/GX integrated. Sounds horrific, but this is just a RUMOUR nothing more."

And the circle begins: NASCAR is still king but it is in a lull for sure. France family buys ALL of the North American sportscar tracks/support series/competition. Why make such a purchase now? France only started GA for the same egomaniacal reasons as TG started IRL. Pure pissing match period. ALMS even with zero coverage has bigger crowds than all GA races minus Daytona. Mirrors CART so far kids..... Talk all he may about love of sportscars but France's only concern is the state of NASCAR. Everything else takes a far distant back seat. For a measly $20mil he has wiped the competition out over night. Daytona will still have the 24hr and it will always be "premiere" as long as France owns the only show in town. Now, lets say ol' TG gets invited to a golf game by Mr France..... Pat on the back and a soft word in his ear, "Hey Tony. I just merged sportscars and its going to be WONDERFUL! How's the IRL doing? Oh that's right, rockin Randy the Rodeo clown is running it now. Say, why don't you take back what's yours son? After all, it was YOUR idea." Seed is set and TG is off to collect $$$

What on earth am I getting at here?!?

France knows what TG will do, so he (or any other birdie) sets ol Tony off with bulldozer in hand. Possible resurgence in Indycar averted: NASCAR wins. Meanwhile France has bought out the only other competing form of racing, sportscars, for pennies. Lets face it $20mil to remove a possible speed bump to NASCAR is money well spent. If they manage to run sportscars right it's money in the NASCAR coffers anyway. Yet again NASCAR wins.

So the long drawn out moral to my story is that TG taking over and destroying the series IS a well thought out plan. By who I'm not certain, but NASCAR sure has a lot to gain yet again.





I'll keep my foil hat on thank you very much!

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#160 Ali_G

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 21:51

The thing is that this isn't tin foil hat material. It's pure common sense.

This isn't even the first time this has happened in motorsport. The 3.5L Group C formula was brought in, in a direct effort to take manufacturers from sportscars to F1. And it worked. Sportscars went into a horrible lul in the mid 90's just when people thought it would start to rival F1 in the late 80s.

Edited by Ali_G, 21 October 2012 - 21:52.


#161 Woody3says

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 01:28

I hope Robin Miller is right on his comments tonight. He thinks the family was sick of all the negative tones around the series (ie selling it, RB getting ousted) and they told Tony to jump ship or they would push him. That would be the best news I've heard in a while if so...... Goodbye good riddance TG

#162 teejay

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:57

Even if true, he will be back one way or another sooner rather than later.

I just hope common sense prevails.

#163 917k

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:06

Why wouldn't the family want to sell it back to family? After all, it has been a money pit for 15 years and far better to have your brother / son footing the bill - and you don't have to worry about him holding IMS hostage.

Pretty sure this thing is real.

#164 Xpat

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:38

Why wouldn't the family want to sell it back to family? After all, it has been a money pit for 15 years and far better to have your brother / son footing the bill - and you don't have to worry about him holding IMS hostage.

Pretty sure this thing is real.


I think I remember reading (maybe from Robin Miller) that for the first time since the split, the league is not hemorrhaging money. Randy Barnard is a smart businessman running a business, not the grandson of a smart businessman trying to run his grandfather's business.

#165 Jim Thurman

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 17:36

I posted this 11 years ago:

Make of it what you will. But I also seem to remember in a later Autoweek that F1 was discussing running stepped-bottom so that their cars would have an easier time on the oval banking. A few years later, in the name of "safety", we get stepped-bottoms. Coincidence?

Thanks for posting that Autoweek item MattPete.

While some here (Ross? :) ) would likely point to this as proof my timeline is off...I think it supports it even more. It may seem a bit early, but that whole situation moved ridiculously fast and was driven along at a frenetic pace. It was like a tornado. By July of 1990, it's quite likely that bug had already been put in Tony George's ear. Those voices grew much, much louder during 1991. By May of 1992, they were deafening. And from May of 1992 until the IRL was announced, it was bludgeoning.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 22 October 2012 - 17:39.


#166 Risil

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 17:47

It's also part of the utopian moment that seemed to be sweeping top-level racing series around the same time that Communism collapsed. F1 and Group C running the same equipment! Ovals springing up all over the world, and raced on by cars using the same technology! Just like the Cosworth DFV! But with 10 different suppliers! And all under the FISA banner!

Like the perceptive Autoweek writer notes, there were certainly people around at the time willing to exploit that mood for their own ends. Of course when the IRL was eventually formed it was under a perhaps equally pie-in-the-sky stock block derived engine formula. Not what Bernie and the FIA envisaged but hardly something that threatened their interests either.

Fast-forward 10 years and you can't even get a bankrupt CART and heavily loss-making IRL to agree a common engine formula.

Edited by Risil, 22 October 2012 - 17:49.


#167 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 17:55

They got pretty close I think, but then CART pulled back. So Honda and Toyota got cranky(they were already cranky over some other things though, spacer-gate was 'fun'(and actually kind of interesting)).

Jim no idea on early 90s frankly, I wasn't even watching then :p

#168 red stick

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 21:15

Gordon Kirby on Rick Mears.

http://www.gordonkir...t_is_no358.html

Interesting discussion on the practice of blocking.

#169 MattPete

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 23:55

It's also part of the utopian moment that seemed to be sweeping top-level racing series around the same time that Communism collapsed. F1 and Group C running the same equipment! Ovals springing up all over the world, and raced on by cars using the same technology! Just like the Cosworth DFV! But with 10 different suppliers! And all under the FISA banner!

...Of course when the IRL was eventually formed it was under a perhaps equally pie-in-the-sky stock block derived engine formula. Not what Bernie and the FIA envisaged but hardly something that threatened their interests either.


Weren't the IRL engines based on IMSA GTO/GTP engines (at least the Olds v8)?

#170 Risil

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 00:34

Weren't the IRL engines based on IMSA GTO/GTP engines (at least the Olds v8)?


Yep. Oldsmobile's PR department made a big thing of their new quad-cam production/racing engine, if this media release is anything to go by. Bit of Google Books research says the GM and Nissan offerings were based on the Olds Aurora and Infiniti Q45 V8s, with greater maximum bores and a single specified cylinder spacing. And by the time the engines had been developed enough to hit the race track, there weren't any parts that hadn't been specially built and designed for racing. I think that whatever genuine connection between the road-going and racing Aurora had been completely lost by the time it had been adapted for Indycar use. Willing to be corrected by the members of the thread who were actually there at the time, though. ;)

The idea that the Indy Racing League would run V8 4 litre normally-aspirated production-derived motors made great marketing copy (irritating terms like "Americana" and "brand ethos" are buzzing through my head), but were essentially a gimmick, I think. Certainly, the idea went nowhere.

#171 MattPete

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:38

The idea that the Indy Racing League would run V8 4 litre normally-aspirated production-derived motors made great marketing copy (irritating terms like "Americana" and "brand ethos" are buzzing through my head), but were essentially a gimmick, I think. Certainly, the idea went nowhere.


I'll admit, that it did seem like a great idea at the time. But, in practice, especially the way the dolts who wrote the rule book wrote the rule book, it was a complete train wreck.

#172 Woody3says

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 21:59

@JennaFryer: Regarding some rumors out of Indy: Nobody has resigned or been fired. No management changed coming "by the end of the week."

Well I'm not even sure what this is in regards to, but that phrasing scares the hell outta me....

#173 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 22:12

People were reporting rumours(clearly the same rumour) that Randy Bernard was on the out.

#174 djparky

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:44

People were reporting rumours(clearly the same rumour) that Randy Bernard was on the out.


lets hope not- he's done more for Indy Car in the last 2 years than anyone else has since the CART Whitepaper days

#175 Woody3says

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 14:04

My feeble little brain just put things together and now I'm more concerned than ever. If Cosworth sells TG will have funding to proceed with a takeover. TG and KK, together, running the train off the cliff.

http://bit.ly/RBD7gS

#176 PayasYouRace

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 17:40

Let's not get too excited about an Italian race. At the same time, they haven't flat-out denied it.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103744

#177 Woody3says

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 20:01

All sorts of conflicting stories just blew up Twitter that RB has been fired today.




@curtcavin: IMS: "He's not fired." But something is going on. #IndyCar

Edited by Woody3says, 26 October 2012 - 20:03.


#178 Risil

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 20:33

Maybe they're waiting to see if Joe Heitzler's interested in giving it another go.

#179 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 20:42

Nevermind socks, I'm going to blow your face off.

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#180 Risil

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 20:58

Nevermind socks, I'm going to blow your face off.


I've got a screenplay for Driven 2: Drive Hard if you're interested.

Edited by Risil, 26 October 2012 - 20:59.


#181 gm914

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 21:25

They should've gone with Drivener.
Indycar is now trending.

#182 Xpat

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 02:02

http://auto-racing.s...16th-georgetown

Miller on the IndyCar mess.

#183 Pikachu Racing

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 04:40

This pains me. In two and half decades of following auto racing I love open wheel racing. I keep on hoping Indycar will succeed and continue. Despite taking a step forward they end up taking 5-10 back. History repeats itself.

#184 juicy sushi

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 23:00

Oh IndyCar, so many second chances, so much waste. Between the management organizations and the owners I have never seen so many people so eager toscrew things up. They don't lack business nous, they lack basic intelligence. A mildly retarded chimpanzee could do a better job than this lot.

#185 gm914

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 23:27

Guess the IBJ article was true after all.

Randy Bernard fired at Emergency Meeting.

#186 Woody3says

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 23:29

http://blogs.indysta...as-indycar-ceo/

Official

Piss off Indycar, that's the last straw for me. TG will take over as sure asthe sun will rise tomorrow.....

#187 Bloggsworth

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 23:41

How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child - Or in this case children squabbling over the takings. Barnard should walk away and leave IRL to sink into the ordure of its own making.

#188 Woody3says

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 23:47

Well it does report it as a resignation.... I hope RB walked in and said 'thanks for all the "support" lately. Oh and $#%$# off, I quit.'

#189 MightyMoose

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 23:56

Randy Bernard may not have been the ultimate person to move Indycar forwards, but he sure as hell did a pretty good job of stabilizing things after the shambles of TG.

Of course things weren't perfect, I think some things definitely wouldn't have been done by a more experienced in motor sports person, but he was visible, took responsibility for some big issues and moved the series forward.

The call to fire him is being blamed on lack of profits, blah, blah, blah, but it's as clear as day that it was a coup. I hope the team bosses who pulled this off soon find themselves also-rans and showing a similar "lack of profits".

Assholes.

#190 SKL

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 00:16

If TG ends up running Indycar I guess I'll have more free time on the weekends after the F1 race is over... ran into Randy B and Bo Barfield at Newton last summer and had a chat- sure more impressed than anything I'd ever seen from Tony...

#191 gm914

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 00:36

Roger Penske: "it's a big disappointment." "This board continues to show poor judgement."
(via Curt Cavin, Indianapolis Star)

#192 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 00:43

Ouch.

#193 Option1

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:04

Indycar = mid-west speak for "apply gun to head, pull trigger." :down:

Neil

#194 Slowinfastout

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 04:22

The trainwreck that just keeps on giving.. surely one of these days it'll have to come to a stop though?




#195 teejay

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 04:28

Im done.

I hope someone from Izod or Indycar reads these forums.

Perhaps its time for some to realise that you probably can run an owc in America sans the 500 and do it again.. but yeah, last thing needed is another split.

Im not even angry, I am just disappointed.


#196 blackhand2010

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 07:34

Perhaps this thread should be re-titled "IndyCar for 2013, it's official; they screwed the pooch".

#197 ensign14

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:10

How much is the IMS worth as real estate then?

#198 Risil

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 11:14

Roger Penske: "it's a big disappointment." "This board continues to show poor judgement."
(via Curt Cavin, Indianapolis Star)


White Paper! White Paper!

#199 Woody3says

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 11:34

I used to see Penske as Darth Vader trying to wage war on all things good. I was wrong. The 500 streams through his veins. He has worked his ass off to woo Chevy and keep them in the series. Love or hate it, he brought Detroit back. IMS should sell the series to the Cap'n for $1 and let him right the ship. I'd give him a hell of a lot better chance of fixing things than this board...

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#200 Peat

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 11:42

As long as the 2013 Indy500 goes ahead (i just got my tickets) i'll be happy.

From then on, they're on thier own.

Good luck Indycar. You'll need it YOU MORONS.